The Family of Angie Zapata Talks to Fox News

[meghanchavalier]

http://www.hrcbackstory.org/images/2008/07/31/ht_angiezapata_080724_mn.jpg

I'm not sure how many of you have heard about this yet but Angie Zapata was a young transgender woman who was murdered last week in Colorado. It's very sad that these violent acts continue to take place within our community. My prayers go out to her family and friends. I only hope this will cause legislation to wake up and realize we need more laws to protect our community and the transgender women and men who are part of it. The link to the video of her family talking about Angie Zapata is below.

http://www.brightcove.tv/title.jsp?title=1703403263

[Legend]

I know i might come off as being cruel but her being transgender, she should have known that there would be a strong possiblity that something like that might happen.That guy is scum in opinion and should be given the max for his brutal and disgusting crime but most likely he will used the "gay panick defense" and get away with it.My condolences to her family and freinds.

[meghanchavalier]

This is another prime example of what's happening in our community right now. Read this article.

http://www.gazette.net/stories/073008/montnew172710_32357.shtml

[meghanchavalier]

When you're young and transgender you are fearful of anyone finding out that you're a transsexual. She wasn't old enough to even know the ins and outs of the transsexual world yet. Unlike so many of us, who have lived this life for so many years, she probaly didn't even know how to process many things that were happening to her. But I do agree, this scumbag should pay the ultimate penalty for what he's done so that others may think twice before they ever do something violent.

[cathare]

Pfff very very sad like always... but i come from Europe (Belgium) and will someone explain to me what that's shit of "gay panick defense" sorry in my country its called murder and the person who did this must been punished severly!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tsmandy]

Wow, that is fucked up. Thanks for the link.

[Legend]

When you're young and transgender you are fearful of anyone finding out that you're a transsexual. She wasn't old enough to even know the ins and outs of the transsexual world yet. Unlike so many of us, who have lived this life for so many years, she probaly didn't even know how to process many things that were happening to her. But I do agree, this scumbag should pay the ultimate penalty for what he's done so that others may think twice before they ever do something violent.

Well that explains, i can imagine that she wasn't connected to anything in the transgender community or knew any other girls.I apologize if my post came off mean spirited.Its really sad that these type of deaths keep adding up in the transgender community and nobody does a damn thing about it.

[GroobySteven]

I touched on this on the Gwen Araujo murder previously and I'm sure I'm going to take some flack for saying it again, so I'll try and make my position totally clear.

1. Their is no justification for this sort of violence or behavior whatsoever and the individuals should be tried for murder.

2. Girls who participate in this sort of lifestyle, namely, giving guys oral or leading them on pretending to be a gender girl and NOT telling the guy before emotional and especially physical activities start, are putting themselves in danger. This is NOT an excuse for violence and not even an asserting the blame but a simple fact. Everybody knows there are men out there who will react badly when they find out after the fact - regardless of whether they even suspected before - after they've came, everything is different. Girls who feel the need to do this, are doing it partly out of the need to "pass" and partly for the danger/naughty/bad/fooling somebody element.

They are putting themselves in harms way. They are taking a risk every time they do this. They are also doing nothing to help transgenders image or causes. I disagree with the point that she was only 18, she knew enough to be fooling a guy online and meeting him for sex.

There are plenty of guys out there looking to meet tgirls whether for casual sex or more. There is no need to seek the thrill of fooling a guy who could be a potential nutcase.

seanchai

[Legend]

Pfff very very sad like always... but i come from Europe (Belgium) and will someone explain to me what that's shit of "gay panick defense" sorry in my country its called murder and the person who did this must been punished severly!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense

[TS DANIELLE FOXXX]

WOW... How fucking sad

This is not right... Poor baby and her family... My condolences

Sometimes we claim life isn't fair in our stupid little moments of idiocy, but we forget stuff like this happens everyday.

I consider myself lucky yet I fear everyday for my safety in this crazy world.

We can't be punished for just being ourselves.

So sad...

[cathare]

Pfff very very sad like always... but i come from Europe (Belgium) and will someone explain to me what that's shit of "gay panick defense" sorry in my country its called murder and the person who did this must been punished severly!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_panic_defense


Thanks...

[TS DANIELLE FOXXX]

I touched on this on the Gwen Araujo murder previously and I'm sure I'm going to take some flack for saying it again, so I'll try and make my position totally clear.

1. Their is no justification for this sort of violence or behavior whatsoever and the individuals should be tried for murder.

2. Girls who participate in this sort of lifestyle, namely, giving guys oral or leading them on pretending to be a gender girl and NOT telling the guy before emotional and especially physical activities start, are putting themselves in danger. This is NOT an excuse for violence and not even an asserting the blame but a simple fact. Everybody knows there are men out there who will react badly when they find out after the fact - regardless of whether they even suspected before - after they've came, everything is different. Girls who feel the need to do this, are doing it partly out of the need to "pass" and partly for the danger/naughty/bad/fooling somebody element.

They are putting themselves in harms way. They are taking a risk every time they do this. They are also doing nothing to help transgenders image or causes. I disagree with the point that she was only 18, she knew enough to be fooling a guy online and meeting him for sex.

There are plenty of guys out there looking to meet tgirls whether for casual sex or more. There is no need to seek the thrill of fooling a guy who could be a potential nutcase.

seanchai

I am sure you are not trying to justify a horrible crime are you? In the words of her sister...

" All he had to do is hit her and walk away - he didn't have to keep going untill she was dead"

There is no justification for these crimes - AT ALL

[Legend]

I touched on this on the Gwen Araujo murder previously and I'm sure I'm going to take some flack for saying it again, so I'll try and make my position totally clear.

1. Their is no justification for this sort of violence or behavior whatsoever and the individuals should be tried for murder.

2. Girls who participate in this sort of lifestyle, namely, giving guys oral or leading them on pretending to be a gender girl and NOT telling the guy before emotional and especially physical activities start, are putting themselves in danger. This is NOT an excuse for violence and not even an asserting the blame but a simple fact. Everybody knows there are men out there who will react badly when they find out after the fact - regardless of whether they even suspected before - after they've came, everything is different. Girls who feel the need to do this, are doing it partly out of the need to "pass" and partly for the danger/naughty/bad/fooling somebody element.

They are putting themselves in harms way. They are taking a risk every time they do this. They are also doing nothing to help transgenders image or causes. I disagree with the point that she was only 18, she knew enough to be fooling a guy online and meeting him for sex.

There are plenty of guys out there looking to meet tgirls whether for casual sex or more. There is no need to seek the thrill of fooling a guy who could be a potential nutcase.

seanchai

I am sure you are not trying to justify a horrible crime are you? In the words of her sister...

" All he had to do is hit her and walk away - he didn't have to keep going untill she was dead"

There is no justification for these crimes - AT ALL

I don't think he is, i think he is sayings its a unnesscary thing to do risking your life like that.

[cathare]

I touched on this on the Gwen Araujo murder previously and I'm sure I'm going to take some flack for saying it again, so I'll try and make my position totally clear.

1. Their is no justification for this sort of violence or behavior whatsoever and the individuals should be tried for murder.

2. Girls who participate in this sort of lifestyle, namely, giving guys oral or leading them on pretending to be a gender girl and NOT telling the guy before emotional and especially physical activities start, are putting themselves in danger. This is NOT an excuse for violence and not even an asserting the blame but a simple fact. Everybody knows there are men out there who will react badly when they find out after the fact - regardless of whether they even suspected before - after they've came, everything is different. Girls who feel the need to do this, are doing it partly out of the need to "pass" and partly for the danger/naughty/bad/fooling somebody element.

They are putting themselves in harms way. They are taking a risk every time they do this. They are also doing nothing to help transgenders image or causes. I disagree with the point that she was only 18, she knew enough to be fooling a guy online and meeting him for sex.

There are plenty of guys out there looking to meet tgirls whether for casual sex or more. There is no need to seek the thrill of fooling a guy who could be a potential nutcase.

seanchai

I am sure you are not trying to justify a horrible crime are you? In the words of her sister...

" All he had to do is hit her and walk away - he didn't have to keep going untill she was dead"

There is no justification for these crimes - AT ALL


What i always says if you murder someone for any reason you must pay for your crime and don't give me the bullshit excuses like i was in another state of mind or other psycho mentality crap etc...

[yx]

Gay panic defense? God this world is sick. Fucking sick.

What next, midget panic defense?

This is yet another seriously fucked up guy who murderered an innocent person. Perhaps she mislead him, but he's still 100% responsible for his actions. This is terrible...

[MrsKellyPierce]

It so sad when this happens, no matter the circumstances. She didn't deserve her life to be taken. He obviously knew at one point he was killing her, anyone sane wouldn't of done it. He obviously had issues in the first place! To take another persons life.

Poor beautiful girl and her family that obviously loved her for who she was!

[meghanchavalier]

I don't understand this "gay panic defense" tactic they use in situations like this. Obviously when she had left that day and he was still at her apartment and discovered then that she was transsexual he could have left and never looked back. Instead he stayed in her apartment, confronted her, then killed her. That's not gay panic that's premeditated murder and should be handled as premeditated murder when it goes to court. There is no excuse for what this person did to this young girl...none whatsoever.

[meghanchavalier]

And I just want to add that I am so angry, sad, and frustrated about this...I feel angry for the act of violence, frustrated because I want to do something so this doesn't happen again and have no idea what to do, sad because her family and friends have lost a part of them they can never get back.

[MrsKellyPierce]

I don't understand this "gay panic defense" tactic they use in situations like this. Obviously when she had left that day and he was still at her apartment and discovered then that she was transsexual he could have left and never looked back. Instead he stayed in her apartment, confronted her, then killed her. That's not gay panic that's premeditated murder and should be handled as premeditated murder when it goes to court. There is no excuse for what this person did to this young girl...none whatsoever. AMEN!! SISTA!

[LTR_Seeker]

Why cant the ts women just find men who know & want ts be if for sex only or relatioships better than being murdered taking risk like that always winds up bad

[meghanchavalier]

Ask yourself this...why do we live in a society where transgender men and women should have to worry about getting murdered by someone for being who they are?

[MrsKellyPierce]

Why cant the ts women just find men who know & want ts be if for sex only or relatioships better than being murdered taking risk like that always winds up bad I can tell you when I was her age I was tricking guys. I wasn't comfortable saying I was a TS and/or I didn't think any men would be interested in me if they knew I was a TS. I tricked many guys in the past, knock on wood I never got beat up or killed. But I still worry now being back in my hometown if I saw one of the guys out and maybe they know now...what would happen to me.

You have to think we think of ourselves as woman, and when we get to the stage where we want romance. We want to be treated like any other girl. Have him take us on dates, with out the complication of talking about what we have between our legs. Have him kiss us, feel us up, etc with out him diving for our penis or getting on all fours.

In conversation have him ask us about where went to shcool, about our family, things you do for fun. With out being like so what does your family think? Treat you like your specimen, than any other normal girl.
Least thats how I was when I was her age.

[Legend]

I don't understand this "gay panic defense" tactic they use in situations like this. Obviously when she had left that day and he was still at her apartment and discovered then that she was transsexual he could have left and never looked back. Instead he stayed in her apartment, confronted her, then killed her. That's not gay panic that's premeditated murder and should be handled as premeditated murder when it goes to court. There is no excuse for what this person did to this young girl...none whatsoever.

Of course your right but it doesn't matter they are going to use that tactic, if a guy killed a girl and he knows she was a transsexual he would probably still used that "gay panick defense" to get a lighter sentence or get away with it.In my opinion courts should not allow they type of defense in the first place.

[meghanchavalier]

There wouldn't be a gay panic defense if our society wasn't conditioned to believe there was something wrong with being gay in the first place.

[Tomfurbs]

Is a 'gay panic' defense an actual recognised legal defense?

[GroobySteven]

Ask yourself this...why do we live in a society where transgender men and women should have to worry about getting murdered by someone for being who they are?

We live in a society that has been indoctrinated through religion and it's not that they're transgender it's that transgender is viewed in the same category as gay.
Nobody should have to worry about being murdered for being who they are ... unfortunately this young transgender was murdered for being someone that she wasn't.

Again, I'm not trying to condone the murder at all - this is no excuse or justification and that "gay reaction" thing is pathetic. My only point, is that these girls can't go around doing this ... and that includes meeting guys off the internet for sex! Go out on a date!

seanchai

[GroobySteven]

1. Their is no justification for this sort of violence or behavior whatsoever and the individuals should be tried for murder.

seanchai

I am sure you are not trying to justify a horrible crime are you? In the words of her sister...


Evidently not Danielle, I guess you missed point 1 ?

[LTR_Seeker]

Why cant the ts women just find men who know & want ts be if for sex only or relatioships better than being murdered taking risk like that always winds up bad I can tell you when I was her age I was tricking guys. I wasn't comfortable saying I was a TS and/or I didn't think any men would be interested in me if they knew I was a TS. I tricked many guys in the past, knock on wood I never got beat up or killed. But I still worry now being back in my hometown if I saw one of the guys out and maybe they know now...what would happen to me.

You have to think we think of ourselves as woman, and when we get to the stage where we want romance. We want to be treated like any other girl. Have him take us on dates, with out the complication of talking about what we have between our legs. Have him kiss us, feel us up, etc with out him diving for our penis or getting on all fours.

In conversation have him ask us about where went to shcool, about our family, things you do for fun. With out being like so what does your family think? Treat you like your specimen, than any other normal girl.
Least thats how I was when I was her age..... Yeah Kelly but there guys out there that will freak out for dumb reasons they think your just gay guy dressed in drag to their warped minds & their families think that way also & circle of friends

[MrsKellyPierce]

Why cant the ts women just find men who know & want ts be if for sex only or relatioships better than being murdered taking risk like that always winds up bad I can tell you when I was her age I was tricking guys. I wasn't comfortable saying I was a TS and/or I didn't think any men would be interested in me if they knew I was a TS. I tricked many guys in the past, knock on wood I never got beat up or killed. But I still worry now being back in my hometown if I saw one of the guys out and maybe they know now...what would happen to me.

You have to think we think of ourselves as woman, and when we get to the stage where we want romance. We want to be treated like any other girl. Have him take us on dates, with out the complication of talking about what we have between our legs. Have him kiss us, feel us up, etc with out him diving for our penis or getting on all fours.

In conversation have him ask us about where went to shcool, about our family, things you do for fun. With out being like so what does your family think? Treat you like your specimen, than any other normal girl.
Least thats how I was when I was her age..... Yeah Kelly but there guys out there that will freak out for dumb reasons they think your just gay guy dressed in drag to their warped minds & their families think that way also & circle of friends But dear when you are young, 18. You don't care where you are getting the validation, as long as they are loving you as a woman. The risk means less, the validation means more.

[meghanchavalier]

So true Kelly So True

[Legend]

The risk means less, the validation means more.


If that risk means death then there is no need for validation.

[hondarobot]

This was clearly murder and there is no excuse for it. If there is any justice, this guy will be #1536473's bitch in prison as soon as possible.

I think the only positive thing about this is that possibly more ts women who are comfortable with who they are will be more outspoken about gender issues. The more information that is available to the general public the better.

I don't think expecting all ts girls to start boldly proclaiming their gender status is realistic at all, and they will continue to pursue "straight guys", but if enough people speak out, more people will begin to understand.

[MrsKellyPierce]

The risk means less, the validation means more.


If that risk means death then there is no need for validation. I am not saying its the right decision, I am saying what goes through the mind of a young ts. I was a young ts at one time. So I know how I felt when I was that age. I am speaking from personal experience.

I didn't care or even think my consequences would end in death. I thought wow I am being treated like a girl, and he thinks I'm pretty. Trust me the validation is something needed by most of us. If not by men, by society.

[LTR_Seeker]

there only loving ou as women until they se your naked or discover it then get physcho & do lots of harm

[meghanchavalier]

If anyone can find out any information about if there is any form of a fund set up for Angie Zapata's Family please post it in this topic. I'm sure many of you would like to help, I know I want to.

[MrsKellyPierce]

there only loving ou as women until they se your naked or discover it then get physcho & do lots of harm But that doesn't matter, they still are viewing you as a woman babe. You have to think what you were like when you were that age. Puppy love etc.

[MrsKellyPierce]

If anyone can find out any information about if there is any form of a fund set up for Angie Zapata's Family please post it in this topic. I'm sure many of you would like to help, I know I want to. definitely!

[LTR_Seeker]

there only loving ou as women until they se your naked or discover it then get physcho & do lots of harm But that doesn't matter, they still are viewing you as a woman babe. You have to think what you were like when you were that age. Puppy love etc. . iom old i cant remeber back that far lol

[MrsKellyPierce]

there only loving ou as women until they se your naked or discover it then get physcho & do lots of harm But that doesn't matter, they still are viewing you as a woman babe. You have to think what you were like when you were that age. Puppy love etc. . iom old i cant remeber back that far lol :wink:

[santiago316]

If anyone can find out any information about if there is any form of a fund set up for Angie Zapata's Family please post it in this topic. I'm sure many of you would like to help, I know I want to.

http://isabellestpierre.wordpress.com/2008/07/27/benefit-for-angie-zapata/

[meghanchavalier]

Hey Kelly, I found this article online and it has the information where to mail checks for the Angie Zapata Memorial Fund. It also has alot of other information. http://glbtss.colostate.edu/documents/ZAPATA-press-release.pdf

[MrsKellyPierce]

Hey Kelly, I found this article online and it has the information where to mail checks for the Angie Zapata Memorial Fund. It also has alot of other information. http://glbtss.colostate.edu/documents/ZAPATA-press-release.pdfawesome girl

[GroobySteven]

Regarding this fund (and we give quite generously to charities and to individuals in need) but what exactly is it for. I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm genuinely interested in what the money would be used for - or what you expect it to be used for?

[macfan]

Kelly I'm definitely feeling what you are saying. You provide some genuine insight into the rationale behind such actions when people may say why not be upfront with the guy.

Its so sad that such a beautiful young girl had the fate of meeting this guy. For anyone to react that way is inexcusable and he should be punked for the rest of his miserable life behind bars, see how much of a tough guy he will be in there.

How hard would it have been for him to walk away. These stories sicken me. Its a catch 22, the girls want the validation of a relationship with a straight guy and yet that guy may react like this if he is not level headed or tolerant. As seanchai said, when some guys cum their whole mood can change.

I wish I could protect all you beautiful girls out there, truly a shame what happened to Angie.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Yes Macfan its truly disheartening to see young girls like these, that have all the potential in the world to grow and be more, to have it only taken in an instant.

[macfan]

Yes Macfan its truly disheartening to see young girls like these, that have all the potential in the world to grow and be more, to have it only taken in an instant.

All because she only desired is to be viewed and treated as a woman by this guy.

[meghanchavalier]

From what I gather the fund is being set up through the Colorado Anti Violence Program so I'm assuming they will use the monies towards helping the family and then towards their program. There's a phone number in the article to call them directly, I'm sure they'd be able to tell you where it's going and then you could post it in here for everyone who wants to donate. I'm just going to send a check and let them disburse the monies where they need it.

[meghanchavalier]

This is the most recent news in the case from the Greeley Tribune News in Colorado. It just went up a little while ago. It's not for the faint of heart as it does go into detail about what happened.

http://www.greeleytribune.com/article/20080731/NEWS/67465010/1001&parentprofile=-1

[yodajazz]

Why cant the ts women just find men who know & want ts be if for sex only or relatioships better than being murdered taking risk like that always winds up bad I can tell you when I was her age I was tricking guys. I wasn't comfortable saying I was a TS and/or I didn't think any men would be interested in me if they knew I was a TS. I tricked many guys in the past, knock on wood I never got beat up or killed. But I still worry now being back in my hometown if I saw one of the guys out and maybe they know now...what would happen to me.

You have to think we think of ourselves as woman, and when we get to the stage where we want romance. We want to be treated like any other girl. Have him take us on dates, with out the complication of talking about what we have between our legs. Have him kiss us, feel us up, etc with out him diving for our penis or getting on all fours.

In conversation have him ask us about where went to shcool, about our family, things you do for fun. With out being like so what does your family think? Treat you like your specimen, than any other normal girl.
Least thats how I was when I was her age.

The episode is sad. My condolences too go out to the family.

But as a male attracted to trans women, I just wish she had sought out those men who like her for who she was. I met most of the trans women I knew in gay bars, or two even fooled into thinking they were gg at first. But if I was in a gay bar, they figured I would not go crazy.

But I want to address Kelly’s point and say that if trans women are not treated like regular women, then it is because how they let themselves be treated. There are many, many men who would love to meet a gg and just get right into sex. They would, if the women would let them. But most gg’s demand more. So if a t-girl wants more she just has to hold out for it, just like other women.

I understand that trans women feel validation if a male accepts them without knowing their full gender status. But of course the subject of this thread is the flip side of validation.

I just want to address Kelly’s line of ‘being treated like a specimen’. Men who admire trans women are fascinated by their whole story. I think that is a sign that the man may want more than just a physical relationship. And knowing the family relationships are important in starting a romantic relationship. If a woman does not want to talk about it then all she has to do is say so.

But as to the topic of this thread, they need to stop the so called "gay panic defense" and treat it like any other life. That's what 'transgender rights' is really about.

[Legend]

The risk means less, the validation means more.


If that risk means death then there is no need for validation. I am not saying its the right decision, I am saying what goes through the mind of a young ts. I was a young ts at one time. So I know how I felt when I was that age. I am speaking from personal experience.

I didn't care or even think my consequences would end in death. I thought wow I am being treated like a girl, and he thinks I'm pretty. Trust me the validation is something needed by most of us. If not by men, by society.


I see what your saying but why do older transsexuals do that, i recall a story from a while back where a older girl like a teen beat her head in because he found out she was a guy.I understand what you are saying but what about the older girls, not old old but you get my point.Why do they do it, shouldn't they know better?

[MrsKellyPierce]

Why cant the ts women just find men who know & want ts be if for sex only or relatioships better than being murdered taking risk like that always winds up bad I can tell you when I was her age I was tricking guys. I wasn't comfortable saying I was a TS and/or I didn't think any men would be interested in me if they knew I was a TS. I tricked many guys in the past, knock on wood I never got beat up or killed. But I still worry now being back in my hometown if I saw one of the guys out and maybe they know now...what would happen to me.

You have to think we think of ourselves as woman, and when we get to the stage where we want romance. We want to be treated like any other girl. Have him take us on dates, with out the complication of talking about what we have between our legs. Have him kiss us, feel us up, etc with out him diving for our penis or getting on all fours.

In conversation have him ask us about where went to shcool, about our family, things you do for fun. With out being like so what does your family think? Treat you like your specimen, than any other normal girl.
Least thats how I was when I was her age.

The episode is sad. My condolences too go out to the family.

But as a male attracted to trans women, I just wish she had sought out those men who like her for who she was. I met most of the trans women I knew in gay bars, or two even fooled into thinking they were gg at first. But if I was in a gay bar, they figured I would not go crazy.

But I want to address Kelly’s point and say that if trans women are not treated like regular women, then it is because how they let themselves be treated. There are many, many men who would love to meet a gg and just get right into sex. They would, if the women would let them. But most gg’s demand more. So if a t-girl wants more she just has to hold out for it, just like other women.

I understand that trans women feel validation if a male accepts them without knowing their full gender status. But of course the subject of this thread is the flip side of validation.

I just want to address Kelly’s line of ‘being treated like a specimen’. Men who admire trans women are fascinated by their whole story. I think that is a sign that the man may want more than just a physical relationship. And knowing the family relationships are important in starting a romantic relationship. If a woman does not want to talk about it then all she has to do is say so.

But as to the topic of this thread, they need to stop the so called "gay panic defense" and treat it like any other life. That's what 'transgender rights' is really about. Yoda you aren't grasping what I meant at all. A man thats interested in a transsexual is usually interested in what she has downstairs. He is usually concerned about how she will pass in public, how she will be around his friends, and so on and so forth.

A man that doesn't know about said transsexual, never thinks about these thoughts. He also never thinks about being on his hands and knees for her or even to ask himself if she'd pass in public or with his friends.

This is the kind of validation I am talking about, and why many transsexuals still trick men.

[LTR_Seeker]

im extrmely mad that woman like her was killed but itsalso reality that there men out there that are abusers they dont think liek the guys here we really seek trasexuals for whatever needs but other who dont they react like that in inhumans sick way

[blckhaze]

just another girl lost. There have been a few girls from Memphis and other southern cities who've also been recently murdered. Its truly a horror, but these incidents should be major warnings for other girl planning on whats called "pussy stunts" ie not telling guys the truth. Getting turned down b4 anything happens is way better than losing your life.

[MrsKellyPierce]

The risk means less, the validation means more.


If that risk means death then there is no need for validation. I am not saying its the right decision, I am saying what goes through the mind of a young ts. I was a young ts at one time. So I know how I felt when I was that age. I am speaking from personal experience.

I didn't care or even think my consequences would end in death. I thought wow I am being treated like a girl, and he thinks I'm pretty. Trust me the validation is something needed by most of us. If not by men, by society.


I see what your saying but why do older transsexuals do that, i recall a story from a while back where a older girl like a teen beat her head in because he found out she was a guy.I understand what you are saying but what about the older girls, not old old but you get my point.Why do they do it, shouldn't they know better? Well my answer to that one is, stupidity or just fed up with men treating them like a sex object, at least if you are a real girl you can get a date or more out of guy. Cause most guys are willing to do anything for a piece of vagina they want. lol

[peggygee]

Why cant the ts women just find men who know & want ts be if for sex only or relatioships better than being murdered taking risk like that always winds up bad I can tell you when I was her age I was tricking guys. I wasn't comfortable saying I was a TS and/or I didn't think any men would be interested in me if they knew I was a TS. I tricked many guys in the past, knock on wood I never got beat up or killed. But I still worry now being back in my hometown if I saw one of the guys out and maybe they know now...what would happen to me.

You have to think we think of ourselves as woman, and when we get to the stage where we want romance. We want to be treated like any other girl. Have him take us on dates, with out the complication of talking about what we have between our legs. Have him kiss us, feel us up, etc with out him diving for our penis or getting on all fours.

In conversation have him ask us about where went to shcool, about our family, things you do for fun. With out being like so what does your family think? Treat you like your specimen, than any other normal girl.
Least thats how I was when I was her age.






The risk means less, the validation means more.


If that risk means death then there is no need for validation. I am not saying its the right decision, I am saying what goes through the mind of a young ts. I was a young ts at one time. So I know how I felt when I was that age. I am speaking from personal experience.

I didn't care or even think my consequences would end in death. I thought wow I am being treated like a girl, and he thinks I'm pretty. Trust me the validation is something needed by most of us. If not by men, by society.


I see what your saying but why do older transsexuals do that, i recall a story from a while back where a older girl like a teen beat her head in because he found out she was a guy.I understand what you are saying but what about the older girls, not old old but you get my point.Why do they do it, shouldn't they know better?

I'm far from 18, and I'm post op. But when I was younger and a pre op,
I would make out with guys and even have oral sex with them.

In hindsight I realize that may not have been the wisest thing to do.

Now as a postop, if it's a casual encounter I usually won't tell the guy my
previous gender status. If I felt that the relationship could get serious
then I would tell.

As to why not seek out transattracted men?

The answer is because they are usually seeking someone with a penis,
who is willing to use it on them. As a pre op, I din't use my penis with
men. Now as a post op I don't have a penis, so they aren't interested in
me and I'm not interested in them.

[Legend]

I'm far from 18, and I'm post op. But when I was younger and a pre op,
I would make out with guys and even have oral sex with them.

In hindsight I realize that may not have been the wisest thing to do.

Now as a postop, if it's a casual encounter I usually won't tell the guy my
previous gender status. If I felt that the relationship could get serious
then I would tell.

As to why not seek out transattracted men?

The answer is because they are usually seeking someone with a penis,
who is willing to use it on them. As a pre op, I din't use my penis with
men. Now as a post op I don't have a penis, so they aren't interested in
me and I'm not interested in them.


Thanks for your insight but i disagree with you stating that guys seek transwomen because of their penis, i and i' m sure a few others but i can only speak for myself enjoy transwomen because of their personality and their struggles to be who they are.I could careless if she is pre-op or post-op either.

[Legend]

The risk means less, the validation means more.


If that risk means death then there is no need for validation. I am not saying its the right decision, I am saying what goes through the mind of a young ts. I was a young ts at one time. So I know how I felt when I was that age. I am speaking from personal experience.

I didn't care or even think my consequences would end in death. I thought wow I am being treated like a girl, and he thinks I'm pretty. Trust me the validation is something needed by most of us. If not by men, by society.


I see what your saying but why do older transsexuals do that, i recall a story from a while back where a older girl like a teen beat her head in because he found out she was a guy.I understand what you are saying but what about the older girls, not old old but you get my point.Why do they do it, shouldn't they know better? Well my answer to that one is, stupidity or just fed up with men treating them like a sex object, at least if you are a real girl you can get a date or more out of guy. Cause most guys are willing to do anything for a piece of vagina they want. lol

Thats still no reason to risk your life.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I hope she gets her JUSTICE! RIP.

~Kisses.

HTG

[BrendaQG]

:-(

I hope and pray for justice in this one case at least. It seems to often murders and assaults on us go unpunished.

______
I Cosign with what Kelly said. Young people of any kind are not known for their wisdom. They act impulsively. The impulse of a young transwoman is to conceal her physical fact and just be taken as 100% female.

[yodajazz]

Yoda you aren't grasping what I meant at all. A man thats interested in a transsexual is usually interested in what she has downstairs. He is usually concerned about how she will pass in public, how she will be around his friends, and so on and so forth.

A man that doesn't know about said transsexual, never thinks about these thoughts. He also never thinks about being on his hands and knees for her or even to ask himself if she'd pass in public or with his friends.

This is the kind of validation I am talking about, and why many transsexuals still trick men.

The things you say are not unique to trans women and apply to all women. Any man interested in any woman, will be interested in what she has downstairs. He feels that he will eventually have a sexually satisfying relationship. And any man who meets a woman has concerns whether or not she will be accepted by his friends and family. Thing like this are touched upon when someone talks about a woman being classy. There are all kinds of names for women that don’t measure up in the image department. The name ‘hood rat’ is just one of many. What man would rush home and tell his mother, “I met a great girl at the strip joint last night”. And it’s the same with his buddies. I was once close with an gg exotic dancer, who knew a lot of musicians. I was giving some guys I ride, and they started talking about her sexually. I let it influence my relationship with her, because of what other people thought, though I now regret it.

And men are also thinking about all kinds of sexual positions with gg’s including being on their knees doing her. There just not verbalizing their fantasies to the woman.

I’m not saying that trans women don’t have some issues with men. But I’m saying that gg’s have the same issues. Trans women seem to idealize the straight world, thinking everything is so much better, but it is not so different. Say a t-girl is not into topping, gg’s run into men all the time who are not what they are into sexually. All women have to deal with chasers, players, etc. But a few of those can lead to an ltr.

So maybe out of this tragedy some young trans woman will accept herself for who she is, and let those who are looking for her type find her an love her.

[BrendaQG]

@ Yoda

I have to back Kelly on this one. The fact is that one can assume that a man approaching a young transwoman in most situations is not looking for a transsexual. He is looking for a woman. If you tell him you are TS right away history shows he will leave. If you let him get to know you first there is at least a chance he will stay for a while. Furthermore looking for men who are into transsexuals when one is that age.... all to often that means being a sex worker on the streets. All things considered it may be better to take the chance on dating unsuspecting straight men than to risk HIV infection and street violence.

[peggygee]

I'm far from 18, and I'm post op. But when I was younger and a pre op,
I would make out with guys and even have oral sex with them.

In hindsight I realize that may not have been the wisest thing to do.

Now as a postop, if it's a casual encounter I usually won't tell the guy my
previous gender status. If I felt that the relationship could get serious
then I would tell.

As to why not seek out transattracted men?

The answer is because they are usually seeking someone with a penis,
who is willing to use it on them. As a pre op, I din't use my penis with
men. Now as a post op I don't have a penis, so they aren't interested in
me and I'm not interested in them.


Thanks for your insight but i disagree with you stating that guys seek transwomen because of their penis, i and i' m sure a few others but i can only speak for myself enjoy transwomen because of their personality and their struggles to be who they are.I could careless if she is pre-op or post-op either.




@ Yoda

I have to back Kelly on this one. The fact is that one can assume that a man approaching a young transwoman in most situations is not looking for a transsexual. He is looking for a woman. If you tell him you are TS right away history shows he will leave.

If you let him get to know you first there is at least a chance he will stay for a while. Furthermore looking for men who are into transsexuals when one is that age.... all to often that means being a sex worker on the streets. All things considered it may be better to take the chance on dating unsuspecting straight men than to risk HIV infection and street violence.


I would concur, it's been my experience that it's best for someone to get
to know you before confiding your past or present gender status.

Then too you may find that after getting to know the guy that you two
really don't click, that you're not interested in the guy, and it's not
neccessary to tell.

There are men who will value and love you irregardless of what is
between your legs, sadly men may want women for the very thing
that the woman doesn't like about herself - her penis.

[peggygee]

My sincerest condolences to her family,
and loved ones.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/flying-dove.gif

[Tiffany Anne]

News blip just now on TV (I'm in Boulder, CO), that the "suspect" has been charged with 1st Degree murder.

[SarahG]

Pfff very very sad like always... but i come from Europe (Belgium) and will someone explain to me what that's shit of "gay panick defense" sorry in my country its called murder and the person who did this must been punished severly!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Is a 'gay panic' defense an actual recognised legal defense?

It is a real legal defense, but like most insanity defenses it is risky because the defense is basically admitting that the defendant did the murder, does not depute the details of the murder but instead focuses on trying to prove that the defendant was insane because of the sexual acts or advances.

Its a big gamble because since you're admitting guilt, if the jury fails to believe you were crazy as a result of the advance then you've just lost your chance at acquittal.

The wiki article was a bit brief and oversimplified, downplaying the role that gay panic has in trans cases. IF you consider these sex crimes in the same category as rape-murders, you have to also remember you don't have to go back 20 years to find states in the US allowing rape defendants to argue in court that "the girl was asking for it for wearing miniskirts, leather or nets in public." When it was allowed, it was probably more common than not for rape defendants to try to paint the victim as being either a prostitute or a slut, and that worked for judges AND juries in a frequency that is repulsing & surprising. There was a case I remember in the 90s, I believe it was even in California of all places, where a gg was raped and the judge dismissed the case because "the girl was wearing jeans, and since tight jeans are so hard to get off she must have wanted it and refused to fight the guy off" I am sure that ruling was eventually overturned, I remember people calling for girls in that district to wear jeans to court to protest it... the dick is probably still on the bench to this day. :banghead








My own experiences with dating have been largely positive as far as trans issues are concerned. I wouldn't really consider myself in stealth considering that there are people who know my status who probably didn't absolutely have to know, but I don't go around with some urge to tell everyone I talk to on a day to day basis. That said I've had normal straight people who know me from day to day life who have asked me out, not knowing at the time that I am trans and these experiences have never been difficult because of being trans (sure some of them have been difficult but for other reasons- see example list below).

Has dating been difficult? Sure, but you have to be realistic dating for normal nontrans people is difficult. There are a gazillion reasons why a date may not lead to a long relationship (or any relationship). The guy could be a dick, he could be annoying, he could be not your type, he could have nothing in common with you, whatever.

I don't plan to tell people on the first date, unless I am planing to have sex with them on that night. To minimize drama sure I do what I can to keep things from becoming a problem. Like this one guy, 5 minutes into the date after he asked me out he decided to "call all his friends to tell them the news"- we had a lot of mutual friends, including some that know I am trans so I immediately stopped him, told him to wait until later- and that bought me the time to tell him before he told anyone about the date. Defused the whole situation, no worries about him getting PO'd at his friends "knowing he dated a tgirl" and that was it.

I have noticed that how I word things makes a momental difference in how people react to my situation. If I just bluntly say "just so you know, I am a transsexual" who knows what stereotypes dance in their heads and they retract any notion of dating me immediately. But if I calmly, completely and accurately describe my entire situation without using a trans word (transsexual or transgender) it seems to be a non-issue. The T words seem to inspire discomfort in ways that stuff like GID (or a lack of clinical words entirely) don't seem to make. I am not saying this has a 100% success rate for me, I am not saying that all hetero guys would knowingly go out with a tgirl (so no taking my experience to mean something its not). I also have to assume there will be a possibility anyone I mention it to will repeat it, hence waiting to see if I'd even want to bother dating them more than once to mention it... and I won't date people from social settings where I don't want people to "know" (like school) at all.

Obviously premeditated murder can't be an impulsive violent manic-insanity reaction, assuming (and this is a mighty big assumption) that gay panic is a valid psychological reaction. The guy that goes and digs a tiny grave out in the desert with his friends and then a day or two later kills some tgirl that flirted with him in class a week ago doesn't fit the defense, and yet it would probably fly in some court rooms. :roll:

All this talk about dating is really a big moot point if you consider that gay panic defense does not require a sexual act! All you have to do is get hit on by a guy and flirt back, or flirt on your own before being hit on, in order for the guy to get a blank check in murdering you. Tricking guys is only a small subpart of the issue, so even if you never have or ever will trick someone in your lives it doesn't mean your safe, and doesn't mean your family will see justice if you're murdered.

[Solitary Brother]

Ok
I am about to be controversial.
First.
The murder of this young lady is disgusting and wrong and the animal that did it should be brought to justice.
Now.
All you girls are fucking hypocrites.
ALL OF YOU!!!
You all constantly say you want "new beginners" to the transexual lifestyle i.e ..men for whom the transexual experience is something new.
You say you want "straight men"....whatever that means.
You say you want a man who doesnt know you have a dick and only sees you as a full woman and "not a sexual fantasy or object".
The guy you are describing killed this young woman.
Yet you hate those who know of your "T" and accept it.
You all want that excitement admit it.
You want the thrill of the possible physical danger if this man finds out you have a dick.
Its a huge thrill for you.
Where as the guy who knows you are rather non-plused about his romantic gestures no matter how genuine they may be.
You ladies and walking the tight rope indeed.

[SarahG]

Ok
I am about to be controversial.
First.
The murder of this young lady is disgusting and wrong and the animal that did it should be brought to justice.
Now.
All you girls are fucking hypocrites.
ALL OF YOU!!!
You all constantly say you want "new beginners" to the transexual lifestyle i.e ..men for whom the transexual experience is something new.
You say you want "straight men"....whatever that means.
You say you want a man who doesnt know you have a dick and only sees you as a full woman and "not a sexual fantasy or object".
The guy you are describing killed this young woman.
Yet you hate those who know of your "T" and accept it.
You all want that excitement admit it.
You want the thrill of the possible physical danger if this man finds out you have a dick.
Its a huge thrill for you.
Where as the guy who knows you are rather non-plused about his romantic gestures no matter how genuine they may be.
You ladies and walking the tight rope indeed.

Way to generalize. I've been with a "chaser" for almost four years now. :roll: That's actually how he and I met. I've never given him the "I am outta here if I see you expressing an interest in my genitals" ultimatum just as he has never given me the "if you get SRS you have to leave" ultimatum.

It isn't what I would regard to be my ideal version of a relationship, its had its share of problems like most relationships do, but him being into tgirls has never been an issue one way or another.

[meghanchavalier]

By saying "ALL OF US" girls are hipocrates is really generalizing our whole transcommunity. I accept myself and that's all that matters, I don't care what anyone else thinks. If someone has a problem with what I am, that's their problem not mine. It's about being a strong, independent transsexual who can stand on their own two feet without the help of anyone. This young lady never had a chance to even become everything she could have. She never had the years it takes to become the person she could have. The world will never know her full potential. This is a situation where a young transsexual was brutally murdered because of who and what she was. This has nothing to do with love this has everything to do with hate. Understand the situation for what it is, take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

[Nowhere]

You know, I've been thinking about this for a bit and I've realized the REAL problem here:

The fact that transsexuality is the last remaining 'closeted' sexual situation.

Face it, if she was able to be comfortably protected with proper laws and security like the gay community is right now, there would be no need for her to hide and play "fish." Hell, if things were really right, she would have been able to have the operation complete and covered by insurance (if this world wasn't upside down, which it is).

That's one of the things that drives me crazy today. It is fully open and welcomed for people to be gay and "come out" when ever. It is now the norm by the time people are in HS to be gay and out. But, if someone is trans? Nope. They're still protected by zero laws and forced into the dark.

And, that is why this girl is dead today. Well, the physical actions of others, and the fact that it is NOT SAFE for someone who is TS to simply BE themselves and live their lives, with the same protected freedoms every other person in this country has.

I don't mean to be all political, but only as a result of laws protecting gays did they have the ability to gain the social freedom that (relatively) exists today, and until there are laws specifically protecting the transsexual community, there will be more and more dead, like you see here. :x

[meghanchavalier]

And laws protecting the transgender community are long overdue

[Justawannabe]

Very very sad, I feel so bad for her family.

Very very angry as well... I wish we could manage a good old fashion lynch mob for this guy... but that never ends well, no matter how much satisfaction it might mean to us, given who would get gone after by someone else.

On the fooling folks thing...

I understand wanting to appear to be part of the normal world and be treated just like a person born female. One of the best moments of my life was being treated like a desirable date and sexual partner, all issues ignored.

But... just like sex is often better without a condom, you have to protect yourself. You can't make excuses for someone being less than wise because the consequences happen to be really bad, and we feel bad for the family and friends.

He is completely responsible for his actions, and should pay an appropriate price (nipping off his privates and using him as part of 'last meal' for condemned killers sounds good for a start)... but her actions set the scene and we can't gloss over her responsibility in this, if only so we don't encourage others to gamble this way.

As to men who are attracted to T-girls, we aren't all just after penis to play with. Plenty of ways to get that if you want it. If I am attracted to a girl, t or otherwise, getting into her pants is definately a big part of what's on my mind. Not proud of that, but let's face it... I'm male and I want to have sex.

The important part here is that it wouldn't matter what she had in her pants, (dick, pussy, octopuswah...), I would want to be able to give her oral pleasure. I might very well even want her to give me anal pleasure, with a toy, her fingers... whatever was available, but I would admittedly talk to a gg much later about it; not because I would want it less, but because I would expect her to be more shocked.

I guess I just think maybe a T-girl would understand a man wanting to feel that pleasure too. One of the things that attracts me to T-girls is that I feel I can talk to them without them thinking I'm a freak... but maybe I'm wrong in that one.

In all cases it's easier with someone you know better, because you know how they fit into the world. If you ask a T-girl out that you've known for months, it's easier to not ask the stupid questions because you know how she fits into you world. In a lot of ways it's no different than dating someone not of your race if you grew up in an intolerant area... you have to have a strategy for dealing with the shit coming your way, any other attitude is just silly, and you need your new partner to be part of your strategy.

Anyway, I'm rambling...

can one of the T-girls tell me what a guy is supposed to do to be intimate with you if he's not supposed to touch your genitals. If a guy does like to be passive (any part of the time), can he even be with a t-girl? Can the experience even be about getting her off, or does it have to be about him getting off using her to make her feel she's being treated appropriately womanly. should take that to another thread I guess.

Sean

[Legend]

Can someone please explain to me what type of law would have prevented her death?

[Legend]

can one of the T-girls tell me what a guy is supposed to do to be intimate with you if he's not supposed to touch your genitals.

You have to be kidding right?

[Nowhere]

Can someone please explain to me what type of law would have prevented her death?

You're thinking too limited.

We have to start at the beginning. If laws are in place so trans people can actually NOT get fired from their jobs for transitioning (which is the norm), not be discriminated from hiring (which is the norm), have things like this (or less) classified as hate crimes, etc, etc - more and more trans people can simply just BE themselves, not living on the fringes of society, in fear. You'd stop having most people who transition be 65-year old truck drivers and more and more people would be doing it who can actually pull it off. Over time, that makes people accustomed to their presence and not 'freaked out' as they once were. This is what the gay community did over a period of time.

So, like when I was in HS (in the 90s) while progress for them was being had, people still, generally, were in the closet. As gay rights were enforced into law, they had less and less to worry about. They could just BE themselves, and there were no more negative consequences to it. So more and more of them did that, over time. And, as time progressed, more people just "knew' someone who was gay. People are no longer 'freaked out' by it. So, they can now live their lives, in the open, as they are.

Had the same thing been done for the trans community, she would have simply been "out" as trans, the entire time, not playing fish (as I said), since that would be the norm. She would have not been living on the fringes of society, living in fear, just as gays used to. She'd be openly trans just like people are openly gay now.

Just like the trans community is now, gays used to be in fear of being 'bashed' or killed for simply being who they were. Now, that's a "hate crime" and there's greater consequences for doing it. For the trans community? Nothing. Living in fear, on the edges of everything. If someone is trans in HS, do you think they're not going to get beat up for it? So, they hide away.

That's what i'm getting at, here.

Protection grants people the freedom to be themselves, to be 'out', and when that's eventually the norm these situations generally don't happen.

But, if you're looking in the window of time of the matter of days or the individual murder, passing a law yesterday, or even a year ago wouldn't have saved her. If a law had been passed 5 or 10 years ago, it might have (giving time for people to be more accustomed to trans people being around them), which is why this needs to be done NOW.

[SarahG]

You know, I've been thinking about this for a bit and I've realized the REAL problem here:

The fact that transsexuality is the last remaining 'closeted' sexual situation.

Face it, if she was able to be comfortably protected with proper laws and security like the gay community is right now, there would be no need for her to hide and play "fish." Hell, if things were really right, she would have been able to have the operation complete and covered by insurance (if this world wasn't upside down, which it is).

That's one of the things that drives me crazy today. It is fully open and welcomed for people to be gay and "come out" when ever. It is now the norm by the time people are in HS to be gay and out. But, if someone is trans? Nope. They're still protected by zero laws and forced into the dark.

And, that is why this girl is dead today. Well, the physical actions of others, and the fact that it is NOT SAFE for someone who is TS to simply BE themselves and live their lives, with the same protected freedoms every other person in this country has.

I don't mean to be all political, but only as a result of laws protecting gays did they have the ability to gain the social freedom that (relatively) exists today, and until there are laws specifically protecting the transsexual community, there will be more and more dead, like you see here. :x

You are right in that these reforms are needed but unless she went postop before running into this guy it wouldn't have been all that preventable. I can't think of an example but I am sure there are specific cases where girls were killed, or beaten just because they either failed to pass to someone on the street OR a guy tried to assault/rape them and "found something that shouldn't be there." In such cases discrimination law probably isn't going to mean shit. What about the other thread this week about cops beating up tgirls for sport? That as it is now without discrimination law is illegal, yet that doesn't mean it don't happen. That doesn't even keep cops from getting away with it.

Even with discrimination law, its so easy for people who know what they're doing to discriminate despite the lawbooks. Discrimination law is on the books, that doesn't mean sex, race and orientation are no longer issues in this country. Hell you don't even have to be a "pinkocommie liberal" to see that (there are some on the right who, IMO incorrectly, use that as an argument against discrimination law).

Example- come out as trans at work, with discrimination law protection, employer suddenly fires your ass only on the basis of something vague like "insubordination," or use of company phone/email for personal stuff, not punching out accurately, whatever. Sure you could always try to fight them, but how often does that really happen? How often does that really succeed? And if you're blue collar enough you need that next week paycheck two weeks ago, you don't have the time to be messing around with finding new jobs or legal cases.

Even if job, housing, school, rental, and medical discrimination were gone in practice (not just the law books), stealth will still happen if there is a difference in day to day life between stealth & out. If coming out as trans PO's your family, makes you lose friends, or makes your neighbors give you odd looks (if not insults as you walk by), then you're not going to be able to legislate away that intolerance and stealth will be appealing to at least some.

[meghanchavalier]

We are under an administration who has no idea what the transgender or gay community needs. I pray for a brighter future where there will be laws that will help start a cycle that will end the hate against our communities. These horrible crimes have to be stopped.

[muttley]

I can certainly understand why you girls wouldn't want to tell a guy you are a transsexual on a first date, thinking it could be a bit of a mood killer. I have a deformity on my left foot, and part of my lower leg. But because on first appearances I appear to be normal, you wouldn't even notice something was different. And the same goes for transgendered women. You wouldn't necessarily know there was something different about her either. I myself am hardly going to go up to a girl and show her my leg "Hi I have a deformed leg, how about dinner sometime ?". So I can understand why some girls wouldn't want to blurt out that they are transsexual on an initial date.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[yodajazz]

@ Yoda

I have to back Kelly on this one. The fact is that one can assume that a man approaching a young transwoman in most situations is not looking for a transsexual. He is looking for a woman. If you tell him you are TS right away history shows he will leave. If you let him get to know you first there is at least a chance he will stay for a while. Furthermore looking for men who are into transsexuals when one is that age.... all to often that means being a sex worker on the streets. All things considered it may be better to take the chance on dating unsuspecting straight men than to risk HIV infection and street violence.

I meant that she could have joined a site like “transsexual dating”, HA, or even just went to a gay bar, where the atmosphere is more open-minded. I say that it is different if you are post op or meet a man in a casual situation, where sex is not involved. You could talk to someone at length in any bar of social hangout and not tell them.

But if you tell someone that you are trans and he leaves, then more than likely you would just save time. The other part of that is saying that men who are onto t girls are all about sex. But if you ask for more before the sex is given, you will get it, or weed out the men that wont sex only. Some gg’s make the same mistake and give it up too quickly. In those cases, the man may think, that if she gave to me this quickly she may give it to others just as quickly. So he starts out not trusting her, which is an ltr destroyer.

So in other word if a woman behaves like a lady, she will more likely be treated as such, whether she is gg or t. Trans women here are saying that straight men treat a woman one way and men into girls treat them another way. I say that there are good guys out there who may be attracted to trans women, as well as jerks attracted to gg's . Angie Zapata could have found a good man into t girls instead of the murderous man she found.

[LTR_Seeker]

To guys who are into ts women she was really taking huge risk & turned bad for her i know what kelly saying she wanted to validate her woman hood status like she always been but that doesnt work like that in dating world when guy finds our your not a gg & reacts badly out of macho ego pride.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Yoda obviously you have never dated as a transsexual and it annoys me that you think you have. This young girl as I said is from an area where men didn't know about transsexuals. Just like I was El Paso, Illinois 2,500 people. I was young, dumb, and my hormones were wanting a man to treat me as a woman. I didn't care of the consequences as long as I got that validation.

This is why Gwen was killed, This is why this girl was killed, This is why Tina was killed, and so many other girls that haven't made national headlines and movies. But in essence they didn't feel like they were doing anything wrong, because they WERE FEMALES AND IN TINAS CASE HE WAS A MAN.

You can't tell me that MOST (key word is most) men that knows about you treats you the same! If you really think about it. Most men aren't comfortable with theirselves that we are attracted to, and would like to settle down with. They are scared of what their friends think, what their family will think, and what society thinks in general.

Yes you can say well you ALLOW yourself to be treated this way. But we are talking about young girls and girls that maybe have only lived as a woman for a year or maybe two years. Eventually you want a relationship where you are looked at for what you are and not for what you have.

So you can't keep comparing us to how a woman dates. MEN, when dating a woman even if she is ugly, isn't scared to take her OUT. He isn't scared to let her mingle with his friends. He isn't scared of what society will think of him, just because of what she has between her legs.

And that dear is the COLD HARD FACTS. You are living in a fantasy land with what you are saying.

To the men:

It saddens me and angries me that anyone is doing the I TOLD YOU SO ANTICS IN HERE. That you are the philospher of life and happiness. I can tell you the times I was most happy is when he didn't know. And sometimes that happiness is worth the risk when you are young.

Now I don't expect you to understand that or grasp that, you can really only have empathy.

But to say oh she should of done this, should of done that, and the coulda, woulda, shoulda antics. Just because you met a transsexual, slept with a transsexual, and/or done shoots with transsexuals doesn't mean you know why we do the things we do.

GET OVER YOURSELF

XOXO KELLY



P.S. And what about when you go to a straight club and you don't outright trick him. I go to straight clubs a lot and I can tell you men will just walk up behind me and try to dance with me and/or talk to me. Do you then also say you are a transsexual?? When all of his friends are around and then a group of people that maybe hate transsexuals are around. Lets hear it philosphers. I'd love to hear your advice. I'm sure it will be then don't go to straight clubs, go to gay clubs...RIGHT??

[southern81]

you know the Romans had a good idea, all muders, rapes, and other voilent crimes would become Gladiators, they have to fight to the death to the last man.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Oh and I also want to say I am proud of the men, that just left it at I am sorry for her death and her families loss.


And Yoda my post on the page before wasn't an attack just how I am annoyed in general with some mens attitudes.

[MrsKellyPierce]

An all together post of how I feel about it truly! I put this on my myspace and other sites.

This blog is in response to the attitudes towards the death of young trans-woman Angie Zapata, and others that went before her.

First off, It so sad when this happens, no matter the circumstances. She didn't deserve her life to be taken. He obviously knew at one point he was killing her, anyone sane wouldn't of done it. He obviously had issues in the first place! To take another persons life to what prove how straght he was? He is trying to claim gay panic attack, however he waited at her apartment all day for her to get home before he bludgeoned her to death. That is pre-meditated murder!

What a sad story to a poor beautiful girl and her family that obviously loved her for who she was!

And I hate the fact that many are saying well she knew it would happen, she should of been smarter.

You haven't been in her situation. You don't know whats its like to date as a transsexual. Sometimes the risk you will take to be treated as a woman. To feel validated.

Just because you have slept, shot a porn shoot with one, and/or met a few doesn't mean you have any clue what it is like to date as a transsexual.

What it is like to be treated as a hazard to society, eventhough the guy supposeably likes you.

When a guy doesn't know, you don't have the complications of him worrying about what society will think and his close loved ones will think. That you have to be his 'secret' and noone else can know.

Even an ugly girl gets more respect from "MOST" (key word) men than what we do just because of what she was born with between her legs.

When you go on a date with a man that doesn't know he asks you about YOUR LIFE, homelife, where you went to school, and what you do for a living. He considers you maybe girlfriend material and not just a HOOK UP. Not in all cases but in most if a guy is taking a girl on a date. Instead of to a bar or party.

When you date a man as a transsexual MOST (key word is Most) men will ask you what its like to be a transsexual, does your family accept it, have you ever been outted in public, and they usually talk about SEX with you immediately. SAD but true. It makes you feel like a freakshow, even though the guy in question is taking you on a date. Its really hard to find a guy that wont ask you these questions till later in the relationship, and treat you as a woman, rather than second rate disposable trash.

For a young trans-girl, even trans-woman that may be older in age but only lived as a woman for a year or two. Need that validation from a man to be treated as a woman fully once in awhile. To be accepted fully, and loved fully.

I can tell you when I was 18 living in a town of 2500 people I was tricking men. I was young, dumb, and my hormones were going crazy. I wanted to be treated like a woman. Be his gf, lead a close to normal relationship as possible. I'd play the virgin act, but I'd give them a blow job and make out with them with clothes on (dry humping). I can also tell you those were some of my best sexual experiences. I felt completely like a woman. I felt the validation, and because of this validation, you sometimes take the risk. I did it a lot, and luckily was never hurt and in most cases never caught. I don't do this anymore, but at the time I was doing it a lot for the valiation. I am not saying its at all the wise choice, but for many the validation of womanhood is more important than life.

As you can see with so many young transsexuals like Gwen Araujo, Angie Zapata (this girl), Brandon Teena, and others that didn't make national headlines and their own movies.

You being men and women not having dated as a transsexual could never understand how it feels, you can only have empathy. So when a outsider that really has no clue and acts like he/she is the Philospher to life and happiness, when a poor innocent girl that only ever wanted to be treated as a girl is slain, and you act out with the "TOLD YOU SO ANTICS" it sickens me. Why can't you just say, I am sorry for her loss and the loss of her family. Rather than point out why she was killed, or why she deserved it. Basically thats what you are saying that she deserved it in a sense.

And yes I know this may make some people mad, but I am mad too.

I am mad that anyone would say that this man had any right to KILL HER. She lied about her gender yes, but it was pre-meditated murder, there was no GAY PANIC. He waited in her apartment for her to get home all day. Then bludgeoned her to death. He knew exactly what he was doing.

I am mad that you jump to the oh well she should of told him. She should of done this. She should of done that.

Get over yourself.

XOXO KELLY

P.S. And what about when I attend a straight club and I don't outright trick him. I can tell you I go to straight clubs a lot and I can tell you men will just walk up behind me and try to dance with me and/or talk to me. I always tell them I have a boyfriend, or I walk away. Would your advice be then to tell them I'm a transsexual?? When all of his friends are around so I can embarass him or maybe a group of people that maybe hate transsexuals are around. Lets hear it philosphers. I'd love to hear your advice. I'm sure it will be then don't go to straight clubs, go to gay clubs...RIGHT?? Pathetic.



XOXO



Kelly

[Legend]

Kelly. that is ridiculous i haven't seen a post that indicated that she desevred that.

Kelly she didn't have to die i don't care what type of validation you think she needed.Her death was pointless and could have been prevented so easily.I'm not transgender so you don't have to tell me that but i know nothing is worth risking your life.

[BeardedOne]

Every time that I read one of these threads (And I've read far too many), I shed a tear. Not just for the detail and circumstance, but for the inhumanity of it.

Angie Zapata, Gwen Araujo, Brandon Teena, the attack on Miriam...

I won't get into the fact that, in every case, they were already in a high-level criminal element (Read: Bad boy).


Can someone please explain to me what type of law would have prevented her death?

I've never had a beef with Legend. I tend to waltz around his views, which are not always clearly phrased, but this little tidbit of his is crystal clear.

NO law would have prevented this horror. Boiled down to its very basics: "Thow shalt not kill", nothing would have stopped this animal from his brutality.

What we need to watch in this scenario is the protection of the law, that which keeps us safe from wrongful accusation and incrimination, from persecution.

It is perhaps a darkly fortunate fact that he laid in wait to confront and murder her. The 'gay panic' defense should, in all human sense, fail under this. Panic is instantaneous and does not stew for minutes or hours to follow its course. This was clearly a planned act and what I have seen and read seems to show that the authorities are actively following this belief. Perhaps there will be justice, this time.

As to her own fault or blame, as it may be, in this: I recall a thread on another TS/TG forum wherein a gurl was going on about this wonderful man she had met and how things were going on so well. The time came when the revelation had to be addressed (She is pre/non-op) and she sent him a letter/e-mail explaining everything. After a day or two, he responded with some drivel about having been deceived, etc. and never spoke to her again.

She was devastated.

She was depressed.

She was sad.

She was alive.

There's no telling what might have happened had her revelation been made in a real-time meeting. Perhaps he would have been a gentleman and stepped away from the table with a cold "Goodbye". Mayhaps he would have been an Alpha-male macho guy and made some big scene before storming from the room.

We might be sending condolences to her family and saying how tragic her departure was.

I truly hate to see my gurls cry, but I'd be far more upset to see them in a body bag.

It's a dangerous dance, the T-gurl mating ritual. If you are revealing your T to someone 'outside the circle', for gawd's sake, be IN a circle of friends when you do.

<Thinking>

To the other note: That the guys into T-gurls are all about the sex/cock.

NEWS FLASH!

We're GUYS! We're always about the cock! OURS! Get the fuck over it!

I have had, over many years, quite a number of TS/TG friends and lovers. Both M2F and F2M (One of the latter assisted with the birth of my son), and it's never been a sekrit that I crave the cock. Yet, ravenous libido aside, I've made deep, long-lasting, and sincere friendships with many of these people. Sometimes a date is just a date.

*Sigh*

In closing...

Angie, may you and yours have a better life the next round, accepted for who and what you are.

[yodajazz]

Yoda obviously you have never dated as a transsexual and it annoys me that you think you have. This young girl as I said is from an area where men didn't know about transsexuals. Just like I was El Paso, Illinois 2,500 people. I was young, dumb, and my hormones were wanting a man to treat me as a woman. I didn't care of the consequences as long as I got that validation.

This is why Gwen was killed, This is why this girl was killed, This is why Tina was killed, and so many other girls that haven't made national headlines and movies. But in essence they didn't feel like they were doing anything wrong, because they WERE FEMALES AND IN TINAS CASE HE WAS A MAN.

You can't tell me that MOST (key word is most) men that knows about you treats you the same! If you really think about it. Most men aren't comfortable with theirselves that we are attracted to, and would like to settle down with. They are scared of what their friends think, what their family will think, and what society thinks in general.

Yes you can say well you ALLOW yourself to be treated this way. But we are talking about young girls and girls that maybe have only lived as a woman for a year or maybe two years. Eventually you want a relationship where you are looked at for what you are and not for what you have.

So you can't keep comparing us to how a woman dates. MEN, when dating a woman even if she is ugly, isn't scared to take her OUT. He isn't scared to let her mingle with his friends. He isn't scared of what society will think of him, just because of what she has between her legs.

And that dear is the COLD HARD FACTS. You are living in a fantasy land with what you are saying.

To the men:

It saddens me and angries me that anyone is doing the I TOLD YOU SO ANTICS IN HERE. That you are the philospher of life and happiness. I can tell you the times I was most happy is when he didn't know. And sometimes that happiness is worth the risk when you are young.

Now I don't expect you to understand that or grasp that, you can really only have empathy.

But to say oh she should of done this, should of done that, and the coulda, woulda, shoulda antics. Just because you met a transsexual, slept with a transsexual, and/or done shoots with transsexuals doesn't mean you know why we do the things we do.

GET OVER YOURSELF

XOXO KELLY



P.S. And what about when you go to a straight club and you don't outright trick him. I go to straight clubs a lot and I can tell you men will just walk up behind me and try to dance with me and/or talk to me. Do you then also say you are a transsexual?? When all of his friends are around and then a group of people that maybe hate transsexuals are around. Lets hear it philosphers. I'd love to hear your advice. I'm sure it will be then don't go to straight clubs, go to gay clubs...RIGHT??

K, I respect you, and I don’t take personal offense at you stating what you believe. I personally believe that you know how to be safe, and adjust yourself according to the situation. No, I don’t think that you have to tell someone that you just met at a club, in front of his friends about your status.

My only point of disagreement is you saying that things are completely different for all gg’s and trans women. Case in point: I remember reading about a gg who was murdered by a man she met on MySpace. So while transwomen may be subject to more violence, all women have to be safety conscious, especially in being alone with someone, they don’t know very well.

I think that most young people engage in some kind of risky behavior. Driving too fast is very common in young people. Those older people that love them try to warn them far in advance to be safety conscious. Still a fair share of young people dies each year, with traffic accidents being the number one cause.

But I am saying that as far as dating and relationships, there are rules that apply in general for large categories of women, not just trans women. There are ‘ugly’ women that some men do not wish to be seen in public with, especially some of the fatter ones. Many of them end up accepting, ‘booty call’ types of relationships. Certain personality types like loud and obnoxious may get the same treatment. Even a woman who talks with bad grammar, and a lot of slang can get that treatment from certain men. I’ll always remember a line in a Rick James song when he said, “the kind of girl you don’t take home to mother”. So what do those women do? The answers are closely the same for all those kinds of women, and trans women are included with this. I know that you are working through it, so we don’t need to discuss it now.

Tragedies like what happened to Angie hurt a lot of people. And the men of HA have their own special hurt, because we see the beauty in trans women. It is much more than some particular sexual act for most of us, I believe.

P.S. Kelly, I did date a few of the girls, and even backed up a ts singer at a club for a few nights. But it is mostly, time that has taught me to look at a bigger picture. I want you to be happy and safe, as I want for myself.

[SXFX]

how sad :-(
She was so cute! We guys can be so freaking dumb.
A moment of silence I guess would be in order.
I would say let's all hold hands and reflect on a loss of such a life but I'm affraid a fight might start.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Kelly. that is ridiculous i haven't seen a post that indicated that she desevred that.

Kelly she didn't have to die i don't care what type of validation you think she needed.Her death was pointless and could have been prevented so easily.I'm not transgender so you don't have to tell me that but i know nothing is worth risking your life. Legend ^^^^ could have prevented it ^^^^ should have prevented etc she shouldn't of lied....are all ways of saying well "YOU KNOW IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN"

Again its the I told you so attitude.

In essence it is in a way saying...she deserved it.

She played with fire, now she is burnt. Right??? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[MrsKellyPierce]

Yoda obviously you have never dated as a transsexual and it annoys me that you think you have. This young girl as I said is from an area where men didn't know about transsexuals. Just like I was El Paso, Illinois 2,500 people. I was young, dumb, and my hormones were wanting a man to treat me as a woman. I didn't care of the consequences as long as I got that validation.

This is why Gwen was killed, This is why this girl was killed, This is why Tina was killed, and so many other girls that haven't made national headlines and movies. But in essence they didn't feel like they were doing anything wrong, because they WERE FEMALES AND IN TINAS CASE HE WAS A MAN.

You can't tell me that MOST (key word is most) men that knows about you treats you the same! If you really think about it. Most men aren't comfortable with theirselves that we are attracted to, and would like to settle down with. They are scared of what their friends think, what their family will think, and what society thinks in general.

Yes you can say well you ALLOW yourself to be treated this way. But we are talking about young girls and girls that maybe have only lived as a woman for a year or maybe two years. Eventually you want a relationship where you are looked at for what you are and not for what you have.

So you can't keep comparing us to how a woman dates. MEN, when dating a woman even if she is ugly, isn't scared to take her OUT. He isn't scared to let her mingle with his friends. He isn't scared of what society will think of him, just because of what she has between her legs.

And that dear is the COLD HARD FACTS. You are living in a fantasy land with what you are saying.

To the men:

It saddens me and angries me that anyone is doing the I TOLD YOU SO ANTICS IN HERE. That you are the philospher of life and happiness. I can tell you the times I was most happy is when he didn't know. And sometimes that happiness is worth the risk when you are young.

Now I don't expect you to understand that or grasp that, you can really only have empathy.

But to say oh she should of done this, should of done that, and the coulda, woulda, shoulda antics. Just because you met a transsexual, slept with a transsexual, and/or done shoots with transsexuals doesn't mean you know why we do the things we do.

GET OVER YOURSELF

XOXO KELLY



P.S. And what about when you go to a straight club and you don't outright trick him. I go to straight clubs a lot and I can tell you men will just walk up behind me and try to dance with me and/or talk to me. Do you then also say you are a transsexual?? When all of his friends are around and then a group of people that maybe hate transsexuals are around. Lets hear it philosphers. I'd love to hear your advice. I'm sure it will be then don't go to straight clubs, go to gay clubs...RIGHT??

K, I respect you, and I don’t take personal offense at you stating what you believe. I personally believe that you know how to be safe, and adjust yourself according to the situation. No, I don’t think that you have to tell someone that you just met at a club, in front of his friends about your status.

My only point of disagreement is you saying that things are completely different for all gg’s and trans women. Case in point: I remember reading about a gg who was murdered by a man she met on MySpace. So while transwomen may be subject to more violence, all women have to be safety conscious, especially in being alone with someone, they don’t know very well.

I think that most young people engage in some kind of risky behavior. Driving too fast is very common in young people. Those older people that love them try to warn them far in advance to be safety conscious. Still a fair share of young people dies each year, with traffic accidents being the number one cause.

But I am saying that as far as dating and relationships, there are rules that apply in general for large categories of women, not just trans women. There are ‘ugly’ women that some men do not wish to be seen in public with, especially some of the fatter ones. Many of them end up accepting, ‘booty call’ types of relationships. Certain personality types like loud and obnoxious may get the same treatment. Even a woman who talks with bad grammar, and a lot of slang can get that treatment from certain men. I’ll always remember a line in a Rick James song when he said, “the kind of girl you don’t take home to mother”. So what do those women do? The answers are closely the same for all those kinds of women, and trans women are included with this. I know that you are working through it, so we don’t need to discuss it now.

Tragedies like what happened to Angie hurt a lot of people. And the men of HA have their own special hurt, because we see the beauty in trans women. It is much more than some particular sexual act for most of us, I believe.

P.S. Kelly, I did date a few of the girls, and even backed up a ts singer at a club for a few nights. But it is mostly, time that has taught me to look at a bigger picture. I want you to be happy and safe, as I want for myself. Yoda I am not saying anything else. You obviously still don't get it. You keep comparing a womans problems with a genetic girls problems in dating. They are not the same, similarities in some aspects, but not the same at ALL. And you are going by your own self, not the majority of men that are into transsexuals dear.

[MrsKellyPierce]

Every time that I read one of these threads (And I've read far too many), I shed a tear. Not just for the detail and circumstance, but for the inhumanity of it.

Angie Zapata, Gwen Araujo, Brandon Teena, the attack on Miriam...

I won't get into the fact that, in every case, they were already in a high-level criminal element (Read: Bad boy).


Can someone please explain to me what type of law would have prevented her death?

I've never had a beef with Legend. I tend to waltz around his views, which are not always clearly phrased, but this little tidbit of his is crystal clear.

NO law would have prevented this horror. Boiled down to its very basics: "Thow shalt not kill", nothing would have stopped this animal from his brutality.

What we need to watch in this scenario is the protection of the law, that which keeps us safe from wrongful accusation and incrimination, from persecution.

It is perhaps a darkly fortunate fact that he laid in wait to confront and murder her. The 'gay panic' defense should, in all human sense, fail under this. Panic is instantaneous and does not stew for minutes or hours to follow its course. This was clearly a planned act and what I have seen and read seems to show that the authorities are actively following this belief. Perhaps there will be justice, this time.

As to her own fault or blame, as it may be, in this: I recall a thread on another TS/TG forum wherein a gurl was going on about this wonderful man she had met and how things were going on so well. The time came when the revelation had to be addressed (She is pre/non-op) and she sent him a letter/e-mail explaining everything. After a day or two, he responded with some drivel about having been deceived, etc. and never spoke to her again.

She was devastated.

She was depressed.

She was sad.

She was alive.

There's no telling what might have happened had her revelation been made in a real-time meeting. Perhaps he would have been a gentleman and stepped away from the table with a cold "Goodbye". Mayhaps he would have been an Alpha-male macho guy and made some big scene before storming from the room.

We might be sending condolences to her family and saying how tragic her departure was.

I truly hate to see my gurls cry, but I'd be far more upset to see them in a body bag.

It's a dangerous dance, the T-gurl mating ritual. If you are revealing your T to someone 'outside the circle', for gawd's sake, be IN a circle of friends when you do.

<Thinking>

To the other note: That the guys into T-gurls are all about the sex/cock.

NEWS FLASH!

We're GUYS! We're always about the cock! OURS! Get the fuck over it!

I have had, over many years, quite a number of TS/TG friends and lovers. Both M2F and F2M (One of the latter assisted with the birth of my son), and it's never been a sekrit that I crave the cock. Yet, ravenous libido aside, I've made deep, long-lasting, and sincere friendships with many of these people. Sometimes a date is just a date.

*Sigh*

In closing...

Angie, may you and yours have a better life the next round, accepted for who and what you are. And bearded I said MOST god, can't people read the MOST, Many, and Some. And not every man is about the "COCK" certainly not the men I have dated. So I am not going to "GET OVER IT"

[SarahG]

It is perhaps a darkly fortunate fact that he laid in wait to confront and murder her. The 'gay panic' defense should, in all human sense, fail under this. Panic is instantaneous and does not stew for minutes or hours to follow its course. This was clearly a planned act and what I have seen and read seems to show that the authorities are actively following this belief. Perhaps there will be justice, this time.


Like I said, if we work with the assumption that "gay panic is valid" (which probably is NOT true!) then most of these cases wouldn't fit the defense anyway because its all about a manic crazy-violent response.

If they put planning, thought, premeditation into it- by definition, it can't be a valid gay panic defense claim!

AND YET, it works time and time again even when people clearly don't meet the insanity plea's requirements. Why? Because our society, or system, or both is giving these murderers a blank check to kill tgirls as long as they use this "they tricked me and i freaked out" line.

Gay panic defense does NOT REQUIRE SEXUAL INTERACTION. Sure in this specific example, and the more known case with Gwen embody the "tricking" stereotype to some degree but, in the legal system, a murderer can use this defense if the girl hits on him, or if the girl flirts back when he hits on her!

Think about the ramifications of this bullshit, a girl is going to the store to buy some groceries, minding her own business- no dating, sex, not even talking to someone. A guy walks up to her, says she's cute and she says thanks.... but the voice doesn't pass, the guy gets pissed, sneaks out of the store....follows her home, and beats her to death. Gay panic defense would be usable in this example when the girl did NOTHING WRONG.

I worry by devoting so much attention to the "ethics of dating" we're losing sight ourselves of the fact that this murderer's whole defense argument is kaput.

[Legend]

Kelly. that is ridiculous i haven't seen a post that indicated that she desevred that.

Kelly she didn't have to die i don't care what type of validation you think she needed.Her death was pointless and could have been prevented so easily.I'm not transgender so you don't have to tell me that but i know nothing is worth risking your life. Legend ^^^^ could have prevented it ^^^^ should have prevented etc she shouldn't of lied....are all ways of saying well "YOU KNOW IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN"

Again its the I told you so attitude.

In essence it is in a way saying...she deserved it.

She played with fire, now she is burnt. Right??? :roll: :roll: :roll:



Don't give the impression like like that cruel of a person to say some s**t like that, she didn't deserve that s**t at all.Serioualy kelly when the next post on this forum is of a girl who has been killed because a guy didn't know are you going to use that validation excuse or are you going to find a solution so that it doesn't happen to another tgirl.

[SarahG]

Although the more I think of it I do agree, in a very limited sense that discrimination laws in practice may over time make a difference. It wouldn't have saved this girl, it probably won't help the ~10-15 reported tgirls that get murdered a year in this country who will be killed next year (that number is about typical in recent years, correct?).

There are always gonna be asshats that wanna beat up or kill people who are different. No law is going to change that, but the law may impact the frequency of those crimes.

There are still hate crimes in America against jews, and that isn't a mainstream acceptable behavior in our society anymore. Its protected under hate crime laws, discrimination laws, and other measures... yet I know of at least one temple in NY state that was FIRE BOMBED within the last 10 years.

But here is (a rare small amount) of optimism coming from me on the issue: if these measures decrease how often these events occur then maybe there is a small, not perfect- but small long term advantage.

The other groups that have been targeted before, that are protected, do not have these hate crimes occur at the same frequency as they used to. This does not prove the discrimination laws caused this change, but it might have been a contributing factor. Obviously, if gay rights groups keep selling us down the river every time discrimination laws get proposed on the federal level, we'll never know.

[Legend]

Every time that I read one of these threads (And I've read far too many), I shed a tear. Not just for the detail and circumstance, but for the inhumanity of it.

Angie Zapata, Gwen Araujo, Brandon Teena, the attack on Miriam...

I won't get into the fact that, in every case, they were already in a high-level criminal element (Read: Bad boy).


Can someone please explain to me what type of law would have prevented her death?

I've never had a beef with Legend. I tend to waltz around his views, which are not always clearly phrased, but this little tidbit of his is crystal clear.

NO law would have prevented this horror. Boiled down to its very basics: "Thow shalt not kill", nothing would have stopped this animal from his brutality.

What we need to watch in this scenario is the protection of the law, that which keeps us safe from wrongful accusation and incrimination, from persecution.

It is perhaps a darkly fortunate fact that he laid in wait to confront and murder her. The 'gay panic' defense should, in all human sense, fail under this. Panic is instantaneous and does not stew for minutes or hours to follow its course. This was clearly a planned act and what I have seen and read seems to show that the authorities are actively following this belief. Perhaps there will be justice, this time.

As to her own fault or blame, as it may be, in this: I recall a thread on another TS/TG forum wherein a gurl was going on about this wonderful man she had met and how things were going on so well. The time came when the revelation had to be addressed (She is pre/non-op) and she sent him a letter/e-mail explaining everything. After a day or two, he responded with some drivel about having been deceived, etc. and never spoke to her again.

She was devastated.

She was depressed.

She was sad.

She was alive.

There's no telling what might have happened had her revelation been made in a real-time meeting. Perhaps he would have been a gentleman and stepped away from the table with a cold "Goodbye". Mayhaps he would have been an Alpha-male macho guy and made some big scene before storming from the room.

We might be sending condolences to her family and saying how tragic her departure was.

I truly hate to see my gurls cry, but I'd be far more upset to see them in a body bag.

It's a dangerous dance, the T-gurl mating ritual. If you are revealing your T to someone 'outside the circle', for gawd's sake, be IN a circle of friends when you do.

<Thinking>

To the other note: That the guys into T-gurls are all about the sex/cock.

NEWS FLASH!

We're GUYS! We're always about the cock! OURS! Get the fuck over it!

I have had, over many years, quite a number of TS/TG friends and lovers. Both M2F and F2M (One of the latter assisted with the birth of my son), and it's never been a sekrit that I crave the cock. Yet, ravenous libido aside, I've made deep, long-lasting, and sincere friendships with many of these people. Sometimes a date is just a date.

*Sigh*

In closing...

Angie, may you and yours have a better life the next round, accepted for who and what you are.


I'm just saying there isn't a law out they that is going to stop a loonatic from killing someone, if his intent is to kill then he is going to kill.I'm not downplaying her death in anyway it just situations like this you have to lookout for yourself and ask yourself are you putting yourself in harms way.Saying some law would have prevented this is ok in theory but the ultimate thing that could have prevented it is her.

[SarahG]

I'm just saying there isn't a law out they that is going to stop a loonatic from killing someone, if his intent is to kill then he is going to kill.

But laws CAN prevent him from getting away with it after the fact.

Ending the use of gay panic defenses would be a good start.

[Justawannabe]

I guess I was one of the ones saying she should have been more careful.

I just wanted to make clear that I in no way think it was her FAULT, in the same way I don't think it's someones fault if they die in a terrorist attack in a foreign country. I just think that she did the equivalent of ignoring the state department warnings... and as a community we need to make the warning clear that doing something like that is dangerous.

Kelly mentioned growing up in a small town where folks don't know about transsexuals. I didn't know where I grew up... I just knew that how I felt about certain things would get me beat so I hid them. Maybe I was lucky, being more afraid of getting beat than needing to change... but I know it's been different for a lot of folks younger than me because they have the internet to get clues on what to do and when and how.

The important part of the comments is to tell OTHER girls out there not to take the chance...

A bit like the don't drink and drive ads... you don't expect it to stop folks, and most of the time, most of the people can do it and no one gets hurt. But we try to tell as many folks as we can not to... because sometimes people do get hurt. You want to warn off as many as you can, because the road ahead isn't safe... send them down a better detour.

We can't change all the bad men fast enough to save all the girls... so if try to change as many bad men as possible AND warn off as many girls from doing this as possible... maybe we save as many as possible.

Just saying be careful... know what risks your taking if you do this... TAKE PRECAUTIONS... we tell folks to wear condoms even though we know young folks in the moment often won't, and that even if they do we can't guarantee that they won't get pregnant or get an STD... same idea.

She didn't deserve it... just like no one deserves to get a disease... but we tell folks all about how to avoid a disease don't we...

Sean

edit - and yes I know I'm not one of the girls and don't know what its like and I'll shut up now, but I don't think that invalidates my point...

edit 2 - the examples above aren't quite right... as they don't have a third actor for the drinking part and a the condom one has no intelligent third actor. I just want to make sure if we do have a young girl reading this that we highlight that the girl wasn't just unlucky the way the victim of a stray bullet in a drive by is... she wasn't just walking down the street, she was involved in a risky behaviour, and a trans-girl looking to date men that way has to know the risks.

So no you shouldn't have to talk to a man in a club, but maybe you have to think about telling him before it gets to intimate, which is where this whole 'gay panic' crap seems to happen... at the level where there has been some form of intimate contact.

Again... I can certainly be wrong... it was just how I feel we have to treat it as responsible adults trying to talk both to the people outside our community and to those coming into our community. A lot like if they were our kids... and warning them of the dangers of something that might feel great... but is also very dangerous. Just like regular sex or alcohol... or something like that...

Sean... again...

[yodajazz]

Serioualy kelly when the next post on this forum is of a girl who has killed because a guy didn't know are you going to use that validation excuse or are you going to find a solution so that it doesn't happen to another tgirl.

In other words, when someone dies in a tragedy like this, discussions of safety are appropriate. Not only are we sad at the loss of Angie, we want not to happen to others. I have children of my own and I want them to be safe.


Yoda I am not saying anything else. You obviously still don't get it. You keep comparing a womans problems with a genetic girls problems in dating. They are not the same, similarities in some aspects, but not the same at ALL. And you are going by your own self, not the majority of men that are into transsexuals dear.

My posts are too long. Kelly, can't you see the the similarity in the Angie's murder, and the gg who was murdered by a man she met on MySpace? I have a Bachelors degree in Sociology, I was trained to look at human behavior on a broad scale, as well as on an individual level. Plus I have lived twice as long as you and then some.

Yes I do go by my own experience and tend to see the world from it. Most people do. I think a lot of women's views here are jaded by sex work. Men are coming to them for specific sex acts and that's their viewpoint. That doesn't mean they can really say most men are certain way. To me whether it is most men (quantity), is not as important as finding quality in relationships and in life.

So I say it is not a case of me not understanding. I have seen a lot more life than you, but everyone has their own unique views.

[NajwaOslo]

Very Sad Story about that poor girl and feel sad for her familly too,

i will also maybe will sound a little cold here by saying this but a 22 years old we Ts girls know very well the danger we taking by dating a man with out tell him what we are.

i experiece seem a friend of mine few years ago
beating badly and visiting her in hospital because she date a guy for few days and she never told him
once he found out he beat her close to dead this then open my own eyes and no take any Man with me or pick or date any guy with out tell him im a transsexual and i was only realy 23 when this happen

the true to this is that no every man fantasy is to date a chick with dick like many of us Ts girl or Male Tslovers think.

since the year when my friend got beating
every time a man ask me for date or for my number i say yes but please know im Transsexual
and untill now no guy has walk away from me and if they do after 5 minutes i seem back telling me
i though about it and i dont care u are ts i still want to date you ..

i believe is better to be honest and give the guy choice once i tell him
and if dating a Ts is what he want then i go ahead with my date
other than put my self in danger like many of us know it could be
and we could end up dead. like many cases we have seem year after year
is wrong and stupid to take such fatal risk


by the way check my my online Transgeder News Paper
http://www.wtcntoday.com