Barack Obama didn't celebrate the 4th of July 2008

[InHouston]

Let’s remember back to the day when Obama stood amongst his political peers during the Pledge of Allegiance. With his hands crossed at the waist, no flag pin on his lapel, and worst of all … silent not uttering one word of the pledge, he made his intention clear to the people of this nation; that he is not proud of his country (as corroborated by the testimony of his own wife), and to stand in abject defiance of this great nation.
Fast forward to the present, July 4th, 2008, while McCain took the day off from the campaign trail to celebrate the birth of our nation, Barack Obama instead decided to campaign in Butte Montana, instead emphasizing the celebration of his daughter’s birthday; Malia who turned 10 on Friday, and not necessarily the birth of this great nation. In the opening sentences of his speech, he made a fundamentally incorrect and Marxist statement about the founding principles of this country, “We are a nation, not of men, but of laws”.

Get it right Obama and refer to our nation’s preamble to the Constitution consisting of the following three opening words “We the people …”

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vPn5Lhuav54

Obama also disappointed local residents by not walking in the 4th of July parade on the convenient excuse that Secret Service agents would have to search everyone before he did this. However, as you can see, Barack has clearly made the necessary security preparations to sit amongst the crowd at the rally, but not march in its 4th of July parade. It has been a local tradition for years in Butte Montana for visiting Politicians to march in the 4th of July parade. Barack Obama is now (yet again) the exception to an American tradition. Politicians need only inform their Secret Service detail in advance of their intentions at a public gathering, and the Department of Diplomatic Security will make all the necessary security preparations with a forward security detail three days in advance.

Obama’s words hint of old world monarchy which initially drove the wedge between British American colonialists and their mother country that led to the American Revolution. And further painfully contradicting Obama’s statement are the ideas, words, and phrases laid down in our Declaration of Independence, United State’s Constitution, and local state Constitutions that were inspired by the likes of John Locke, a British political philosopher who’s ideas had a large impact on the framing of our nation’s declaration and Constitution; who believed that sovereignty resides in individuals, not rulers.

“All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their peace, safety, happiness and the protection of property. For the advancement of these ends, they have at all times an inalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform or abolish their government in such manner as they may deem proper.”

Our founding fathers, especially Madison, immersed themselves in the study of history and political philosophy. The Declaration of Independence drew heavily from Locke's ideas, and other like-minded revolutionary thinkers of that era, on the notion that governments derive “their just powers from the consent of the governed” and pioneered the idea of "separation of powers".
On July 4th, 1776, a group of philosophically inclined revolutionaries (our founding fathers), abolished Monarchial rule in the colonial states and established a government for the people and by the people. They bravely and publicly committed high treason against the royal crown by signing their names at the bottom of the Declaration of Independence. This act guaranteed their execution should the revolution fail. Notice yet again on the 4th, Obama wears no flag pin even on our nation’s birthday, and did not walk in the parade. Obama clearly views an America with sentiments that are a detriment to this nation’s founding principles. Obama interestingly enough talks little of our nation’s rich history on July 4th, and laid more credence to combating Global Warming, and ends his speech with how he will “change the world”.

[thx1138]

So what's your point?

[blckhaze]

Lots of people dont celebrate July 4th.
For those who know history, July 4th isnt the correct date anyhow.

[dafame]

Oh my God InHouston!! You've opened up my eyes. I had no idea. This guy was actually campaigning while the hero John McCain was celebrating the birth or our independence? The nerve of some people. To actually mention that it was his daughters birthday on such a day. He should be executed by firing squad for that abomination.

Plus in looking at the pictures you know he had to be dying inside with his daughters holding our flag that he hates...lol Serves him right playing with us pretending to love this country.

We know that he hates this country. The only thing I haven't been able to figure out at this point is why he's running for president. The only rational thing that I've come up with is that it's the ultimate inside-job. What better way for these Islamic extremist to get us other than to have one of their own rise to the top of our ranks. That way he can give them all of our secrets so they can kill us all. I'm sure there are dozens of terrorist cells waiting for Obama (who's real name is Dwayne Carter) to get into office so he can give them the word to attack. People, listen to the Republicans. We cannot afford to let a terrorist leader into the white house. Not only will he give the word for the cells to strike but he also will make sure that the oil prices will go up because he and his "True" nation will benefit. Oh my God I'm terrified. Someone please get me some Republican judgment and protection so I can calm down!!

I just got my new flag pin today. Been wearing one everyday for the past 11 years. I can tell that you're the type like me that wears one faithfully. I look at my co-workers every day coming into work without theirs and it just makes me sick. It seems like nobody loves this country anymore.

Well I'll keep wearing mine and I know you'll be wearing yours and maybe the two of us together along with John McCain can restore this great nation to its prominence.

Long Live the Donkey!!

[canihavu]

IF that's all you got against Obama, you're in for a long battle. I would to debate you on what our "patriotic" President has done for the nation he was put in charge of...

[Fox]

I didn't read that (no time right now), but it's kinda ironic black people celebrating the independence of the nation that accosted us, huh? Fireworks are cool though. ;)

[saifan]

Don't usually hate in forums, but we are fucked either way. Just all a matter of how you like it.

[bat1]

So what's your point?

same here what's your point? many could care less about our flag
being in the military for 19 years now I've seen high ranking officers
not salute the flag or not come out outside to honor it.

[trish]

Wow! You really are a hate monger aren't you, InHouston. Do you own a flag pin? How many people here own flag pins? How many of you wear them?

After graduating near the top of his class (unlike Bush or McCain) from Harvard Law, Obama could've become a highly paid partner in almost any law firm in the country. He chose instead to help out the intercity poor in Chicago. He and his wife were still paying off their student loans while McCain and his wealthy trophy wife were enjoying their eight different homes spread across the land. When Obama's book made the best seller list, he was finally able to pay off those loans. Nevertheless he worked at community organization in Chicago without complaint. He became a teacher and a civil rights lawyer. He entered State politics served in State government (holding positions for which the oath of office requires pledging one's allegiance to the State Constitution) He later became the Senator of Illinois (a position where he solemnly pledged his allegiance to the U.S. and it's constitution). I think that's more than enough pledging, the rest is for show. He's clearly shown he's at least as patriotic as...say...InHouston...who never bothered to even try to become a civil rights lawyer, a member of his state legislature or a Senator or a Congressmen in the United States government.

Hey, InHouston...did YOU walk in your hometown's independence day parade? I did.

[InHouston]

I didn't read that (no time right now), but it's kinda ironic black people celebrating the independence of the nation that accosted us, huh? Fireworks are cool though. ;)

Black people in Africa kidnapped men, women, and children in Africa, horded them into slave holding camps, sold them to the Spaniards on their slave ships who in turn exported them to America. Many races, including yours, had a hand in American slavery.

[trish]

Everybody loves their country. We all have different ideas about what that love entails. If you're not voting for someone because of their stand on issues that's one thing. But if you're not voting for Obama or for McCain because someone convinced you one or the other was unpatriotic, then your judgment is seriously biased and impaired.

[dafame]

I didn't read that (no time right now), but it's kinda ironic black people celebrating the independence of the nation that accosted us, huh? Fireworks are cool though. ;)

Black people in Africa kidnapped men, women, and children in Africa, horded them into slave holding camps, sold them to the Spaniards on their slave ships who in turn exported them to America. Many races, including yours, had a hand in American slavery.

That's right InHouston...lol Tell it like it is. Africans were the reason for slavery and white people just had no other choice but to accept what these africans were doing.

[InHouston]

I didn't read that (no time right now), but it's kinda ironic black people celebrating the independence of the nation that accosted us, huh? Fireworks are cool though. ;)

Black people in Africa kidnapped men, women, and children in Africa, horded them into slave holding camps, sold them to the Spaniards on their slave ships who in turn exported them to America. Many races, including yours, had a hand in American slavery.

That's right InHouston...lol Tell it like it is. Africans were the reason for slavery and white people just had no other choice but to accept what these africans were doing.

No ... white people had a choice and they chose to own slaves. However, many white people in Colonial America didn't agree with slavery either. My point was that black Africans exported their people to America. Kidnapping people into slave labor is still a problem in Africa to this day. Slavery goes back thousands of years, long before Europe was ever even established. Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Asians, the list goes on and on built a lot of ancient civilization on the backs of slave labor. It was just one of those 'accepted things' in society, and fortunately it is largely gone now.

[trish]

Listen to yourself, InHouston. In November we all have to get together and pick a president. It is our patriotic duty to take our votes seriously and consider our individual choices with logic and clarity. You're urging us to decide on the basis of a flag pin, hand placement during the Pledge of Allegiance and whether or not he walked in a parade based on the advice of the Secret Service. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[bkkldby]

Oh my God InHouston!! You've opened up my eyes. I had no idea. This guy was actually campaigning while the hero John McCain was celebrating the birth or our independence? The nerve of some people. To actually mention that it was his daughters birthday on such a day. He should be executed by firing squad for that abomination.

Plus in looking at the pictures you know he had to be dying inside with his daughters holding our flag that he hates...lol Serves him right playing with us pretending to love this country.

We know that he hates this country. The only thing I haven't been able to figure out at this point is why he's running for president. The only rational thing that I've come up with is that it's the ultimate inside-job. What better way for these Islamic extremist to get us rather than have one of their own rise to the top of our ranks. That way he can give them all of our secrets so they can kill us all. I'm sure there are dozens of terrorist cells waiting for Obama (who's real name is Dwayne Carter) to get into office so he can give them the word to attack. People, listen to the Republicans. We cannot afford to let a terrorist leader into the white house. Not only will he give the word for the cells to strike but he also will make sure that the oil prices will go up because he and his "True" nation will benefit. Oh my God I'm terrified. Someone please get me some Republican judgment and protection so I can calm down!!

I just got my new flag pin today. Been wearing one everyday for the past 11 years. I can tell that you're the type like me that wears one faithfully. I look at my co-workers every day coming into work without theirs and it just makes me sick. It seems like nobody loves this country anymore.

Well I'll keep wearing mine and I know you'll be wearing yours and maybe the two of us together along with John McCain can restore this great nation to its prominence.

Long Live the Donkey!!

well said dafame.


trish wrote:
Listen to yourself, InHouston. In November we all have to get together and pick a president. It is our patriotic duty to take our votes seriously and consider our individual choices with logic and clarity. You're urging us to decide on the basis of a flag pin, hand placement during the Pledge of Allegiance and whether or not he walked in a parade based on the advice of the Secret Service. You should be ashamed of yourself.


and you too trish, very valid point. why people try to obfuscate the real issues is obvious, they have little else to say.

InHouston here are a few pics and links for you:

so what is obama doing in these two pics, scratching his chest? reaching for a pen? possibly it is a code sign of the Illuminati...hmmm, suspicious behavior no doubt.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/graphics/anthem2.jpg

http://www.snopes.com/politics/graphics/anthem3.jpg

links that debunk most of what you are probably thinking:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

http://obama.senate.gov/press/070123-debunked_insigh/index.php

http://www.youtube.com/v/KWX3ar6d02A

what with all the problems we face in today's world, and the 2 choices that we are being fed, i'll take obama everytime.

and if you decide to go off on that bs about obama being a flip flopper, may i preempt you with this:


http://www.bi30.org/wordpress/flipflopper.htm

http://www.bi30.org/wordpress/mccain-header.jpg

http://www.bi30.org/wordpress/flipflopper.htm

[Dinand]

Neither did I.

[goldensamba]

Let’s remember back to the day when Obama stood amongst his political peers during the Pledge of Allegiance. With his hands crossed at the waist, no flag pin on his lapel, and worst of all … silent not uttering one word of the pledge, he made his intention clear to the people of this nation; that he is not proud of his country (as corroborated by the testimony of his own wife), and to stand in abject defiance of this great nation.
Fast forward to the present, July 4th, 2008, while McCain took the day off from the campaign trail to celebrate the birth of our nation, Barack Obama instead decided to campaign in Butte Montana, instead emphasizing the celebration of his daughter’s birthday; Malia who turned 10 on Friday, and not necessarily the birth of this great nation. In the opening sentences of his speech, he made a fundamentally incorrect and Marxist statement about the founding principles of this country, “We are a nation, not of men, but of laws”.

Get it right Obama and refer to our nation’s preamble to the Constitution consisting of the following three opening words “We the people …”

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vPn5Lhuav54

Obama also disappointed local residents by not walking in the 4th of July parade on the convenient excuse that Secret Service agents would have to search everyone before he did this. However, as you can see, Barack has clearly made the necessary security preparations to sit amongst the crowd at the rally, but not march in its 4th of July parade. It has been a local tradition for years in Butte Montana for visiting Politicians to march in the 4th of July parade. Barack Obama is now (yet again) the exception to an American tradition. Politicians need only inform their Secret Service detail in advance of their intentions at a public gathering, and the Department of Diplomatic Security will make all the necessary security preparations with a forward security detail three days in advance.

Obama’s words hint of old world monarchy which initially drove the wedge between British American colonialists and their mother country that led to the American Revolution. And further painfully contradicting Obama’s statement are the ideas, words, and phrases laid down in our Declaration of Independence, United State’s Constitution, and local state Constitutions that were inspired by the likes of John Locke, a British political philosopher who’s ideas had a large impact on the framing of our nation’s declaration and Constitution; who believed that sovereignty resides in individuals, not rulers.

“All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their peace, safety, happiness and the protection of property. For the advancement of these ends, they have at all times an inalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform or abolish their government in such manner as they may deem proper.”

Our founding fathers, especially Madison, immersed themselves in the study of history and political philosophy. The Declaration of Independence drew heavily from Locke's ideas, and other like-minded revolutionary thinkers of that era, on the notion that governments derive “their just powers from the consent of the governed” and pioneered the idea of "separation of powers".
On July 4th, 1776, a group of philosophically inclined revolutionaries (our founding fathers), abolished Monarchial rule in the colonial states and established a government for the people and by the people. They bravely and publicly committed high treason against the royal crown by signing their names at the bottom of the Declaration of Independence. This act guaranteed their execution should the revolution fail. Notice yet again on the 4th, Obama wears no flag pin even on our nation’s birthday, and did not walk in the parade. Obama clearly views an America with sentiments that are a detriment to this nation’s founding principles. Obama interestingly enough talks little of our nation’s rich history on July 4th, and laid more credence to combating Global Warming, and ends his speech with how he will “change the world”.

All of this garbage has already been debunked. Stop watching Fox Noise. I bet you still think he is an under cover Al Qaeda agent trying ot take over the country form the inside out. Your racism and ignorance is astounding. CNN did an entire evening on this as well as the other BS being floated by the right about him attending an Islamic Madrassa as a child. Both complete garbage.

People like you are the reason this country is going to crap. I'm sure you voted for George W as well. I mean he does wear a lapel pin and talk about the evil doing muslims and all. He has got to be a great patriot. NOT!

[bkkldby]

i also find it all telling that this is your choice for avatar InHouston: http://www.hungangels.com/board/images/avatars/1152151956486ce706d112f.gif

guns, not one, but 2.

very all american, very.

[thx1138]

Some thoughts on patriotism http://www.counterpunch.org/blum07062008.html

[trish]

Black people in Africa kidnapped men, women, and children in Africa, horded them into slave holding camps, sold them to the Spaniards on their slave ships who in turn exported them to America. Many races, including yours, had a hand in American slavery.

That's kind of beside the point Fox is making isn't it. You're not asking him to celebrate Nigerian Independence Day. No slave sold himself or herself to the slavers. No one who did sell, deserves to be celebrated. On Independence Day, I don't celebrate the slavers or the slave owners. I don't celebrate the southern plantation owners or the fools who were conned into fighting for them. Fortunately, there's plenty one can still celebrate...and there's plenty of work still to be done.

[fitz207]

Flag Pins? Can we get anymore shallow? The news media keeps dragging this crap out. John McCain's/Bush's policies are totally wrong for this country.

Look at the economy. There is no way in hell I could vote for another republican.

Democrats forever!

[bkkldby]

Some thoughts on patriotism http://www.counterpunch.org/blum07062008.html

great article, i especially liked these 2 quotes contained within it:

I was once asked after a talk: "Do you love America?" I answered: "No". After pausing for a few seconds to let that sink in amidst several nervous giggles in the audience, I continued with: "I don't love any country. I'm a citizen of the world. I love certain principles, like human rights, civil liberties, democracy, an economy which puts people before profits."

Alexis de Tocqueville, the mid-19th century French historian, commented about his long stay in the United States: "It is impossible to conceive a more troublesome or more garrulous patriotism; it wearies even those who are disposed to respect it."

[blahzay]

Pretty sure in that picture it's the national anthem or star spangled banner playing, not the pledge of allegiance. Congratulations on being a tool who regurgitates 24 hour news spin though Inhouston.

[dafame]

Oh my God InHouston!! You've opened up my eyes. I had no idea. This guy was actually campaigning while the hero John McCain was celebrating the birth or our independence? The nerve of some people. To actually mention that it was his daughters birthday on such a day. He should be executed by firing squad for that abomination.

Plus in looking at the pictures you know he had to be dying inside with his daughters holding our flag that he hates...lol Serves him right playing with us pretending to love this country.

We know that he hates this country. The only thing I haven't been able to figure out at this point is why he's running for president. The only rational thing that I've come up with is that it's the ultimate inside-job. What better way for these Islamic extremist to get us other than have one of their own rise to the top of our ranks. That way he can give them all of our secrets so they can kill us all. I'm sure there are dozens of terrorist cells waiting for Obama (who's real name is Dwayne Carter) to get into office so he can give them the word to attack. People, listen to the Republicans. We cannot afford to let a terrorist leader into the white house. Not only will he give the word for the cells to strike but he also will make sure that the oil prices will go up because he and his "True" nation will benefit. Oh my God I'm terrified. Someone please get me some Republican judgment and protection so I can calm down!!

I just got my new flag pin today. Been wearing one everyday for the past 11 years. I can tell that you're the type like me that wears one faithfully. I look at my co-workers every day coming into work without theirs and it just makes me sick. It seems like nobody loves this country anymore.

Well I'll keep wearing mine and I know you'll be wearing yours and maybe the two of us together along with John McCain can restore this great nation to its prominence.

Long Live the Donkey!!

well said dafame.


trish wrote:
Listen to yourself, InHouston. In November we all have to get together and pick a president. It is our patriotic duty to take our votes seriously and consider our individual choices with logic and clarity. You're urging us to decide on the basis of a flag pin, hand placement during the Pledge of Allegiance and whether or not he walked in a parade based on the advice of the Secret Service. You should be ashamed of yourself.


and you too trish, very valid point. why people try to obfuscate the real issues is obvious, they have little else to say.

InHouston here are a few pics and links for you:

so what is obama doing in these two pics, scratching his chest? reaching for a pen? possibly it is a code sign of the Illuminati...hmmm, suspicious behavior no doubt.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/graphics/anthem2.jpg

http://www.snopes.com/politics/graphics/anthem3.jpg

links that debunk most of what you are probably thinking:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/stance.asp

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

http://obama.senate.gov/press/070123-debunked_insigh/index.php

http://www.youtube.com/v/KWX3ar6d02A

what with all the problems we face in today's world, and the 2 choices that we are being fed, i'll take obama everytime.

and if you decide to go off on that bs about obama being a flip flopper, may i preempt you with this:


http://www.bi30.org/wordpress/flipflopper.htm

http://www.bi30.org/wordpress/mccain-header.jpg

http://www.bi30.org/wordpress/flipflopper.htm

[thx1138]

More reasons on why I hate America (actually American leadership): http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23976753-952,00.html & http://www.newschannel10.com/Global/story.asp?S=8618595 & http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/070508b.html (the REAL reason bush/cheney invaded Iraq)

[cam22001]

I would like to debate you on what our "patriotic" President has done for the nation he was put in charge of...

Two pieces of advice for you:

1. PLEEEEEASE don't mention the name of this pathetic, incompetent embicile that is called "President"!

2. Never argue with a fool, he'll first drag you down to the gutter then beat you there by experience.

[cord4646]

Shit, Houston.

You must have the smallest microdick in all of Texas or something.

[Xim]

Republicans looking for all kinds of excuses...give it up y'all ain't got nothing. Mccain can't argue the issues, he is weak, u and i know it and this is a clear example of them being desperate.

Find ways to fix gas prices, the economy and the war in Iraq, instead of this other non-sense

out

[cam22001]

More reasons on why I hate America (actually American leadership)

Then I'd respectfully suggest to keep out of the Obama/McCain debate at this moment. Guide your hate toward something in your part of the world,

[JelenaCD]

this post is in the wrong forum and if the moderaters don't zap it it's going to get much worse in the coming months !

[sugdaddie69]

I work with alot of good ole boys on the railroad.As i explain to them,i'd have alot more respect for
those who say they won't vote for Obama cause
he's black,then to listen to them search for reasons
not to vote for him.Dumb ass reasons like,parades
lapel pins,his pastor,etc. I would not as a black man
vote for him just because he's black,just as i would
not vote for a backwards asshole like clarence thomas,because he's black.Who can best turn this country around?Bush will go down in history as the
most corrupt,dishonest president in the history of
this country.If you want more of the same,vote macain.All bush has done is make himself and cheney rich for generations to come,while our boys and girls die in the middle east.Housing,health,gas
food,the enviroment, ecomony,all have taken a back seat to greed and lies.

[cam22001]

this post is in the wrong forum and if the moderaters don't zap it it's going to get much worse in the coming months

A wise soul.

[thx1138]

@cam22001: And just where do you think I'm located?

[thx1138]

@sugdaddie69: Well stated. I'm in total agreement for what it's worth.

[tubgirl]

Find ways to fix gas prices, the economy and the war in Iraq, instead of this other non-sense

out

isn't that what nancy pelosi promised when the dems took over the house and congress in the off-year elections?

damn, i'm sure glad they fixed that problem... :roll: :roll:

[Felicia Katt]

cel·ebrate (sel′ə brāt′)

to perform (a ritual, ceremony, etc.) publicly and formally: solemnize
to commemorate (an anniversary, holiday, etc.) with ceremony or festivity
to honor or praise publicly
to mark (a happy occasion) by engaging in some pleasurable activity.

Obama did celebrate the 4th. Going to a parade is the way a lot of people celebrate the 4th of July. Hence the crowds. McCain didn't celebrate it, he just took the weekend off (like he does EVERY weekend) and went home. Whatever he may have done to recognize the day, he didn't do so in public.

You know who Obama was quoting when he said we are a nation of laws, not men? John Adams. One of the founding fathers.

The photo wasn't taken during the Pledge of Allegience. It was the National Anthem. This has been very widely debunked, but it keeps being exhumed by people who have nothing substantive to add to the political debate.

McCain recently said he didn't love this country until he was held prisoner of war. While he was being held, he repeatedly and admiittedly violated the Code of Military Conduct, by giving up information to get medical attention, and accepting favors and special treatment from his captors.

Unlike the BS smears against Obama all that is true, but its still equally irrelevant to the real issues we face, like the economy, the climate and the Middle East.

If petty falsehoods are all that you and the right can offer, you really have nothing to offer at all.

FK

[Realgirls4me]

Let me see if I have this straight? Over a million people have died -- DIED -- in Iraq since the dunce's decision to invade that country(so much for pointing fingers about Saddam's mass graves, huh?). Over 4000 American service personnel will never touch or be touched by a loved one again, with tens of thousands wounded or maimed. Anything or anyone perceived as American will now adorn a bulls eye on their backs for decades to come thanks to said invasion -- they don't have to come here. The American economy is in the tank. The treasury is broken. The moron-in-charge has irreparably harmed U.S. world standing and reputation worldwide (Juxtapose images of JFK traveling overseas with that of the dunce's). People are losing their homes (Wall Street gets a bailout, though). American car plants are being shuttered. Forty-five million Americans without health care, and on and on and on. And all the Right can continually try to pound into the collective American psyche are "problems" such as flag pins, preachers, and parade walking???

... Any Rightie want to tell me what parade Rush, and his new 400 million dollar contract, participated in on the forth? Just curious.

[Realgirls4me]

Oops, duplicate posting. Sorry.

[hippifried]

i look at like this, if you vote obama only cause he's black your an idiot, if you dont vote for obama just cause he's black your an idiot/
Here here! :claps

[sugdaddie69]

@sugdaddie69: Well stated. I'm in total agreement for what it's worth. Thanks,THX

[Oli]

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k275/Lando27/obama-640.jpg

[El Nino]

Nobama please. No McCain either.

[BrendaQG]

Houston we have a problem.

Uh hmm you have have gone off the deep end with this one my friend. Barrack just does not believe in empty gestures like marching in some parade which really don't mean anything. He has devoted his life to public service as has John McCain. Each of them are doing one of the most patriotic things one can do. That is enough proof that both of them are patriots.

As sallam ul lakium.

[dafame]

Nobama please. No McCain either.

This has got to be the funniest person on this form...lol I love El Nino. Absolutely hilarious. Either this guy wants us to be a country without a President or he thinks that if he can convince the HA community for vote for Ron Paul that he'll actually win the Presidency. HA.. HA.. HA

[El Nino]

I didn't mention Ron Paul. BUT, I did mention www.zeitgeistmovie.com

[InHouston]

On Independence Day, I don't celebrate the slavers or the slave owners. I don't celebrate the southern plantation owners or the fools who were conned into fighting for them. Fortunately, there's plenty one can still celebrate...and there's plenty of work still to be done.

:roll: Note Trish's signature here on Hung Angels:

"Give me liberty, or give me death."_Patrick Henry - Virginian Slave Owner

Here's the real deal Trish. You think you're so smart with all your yip yap talking points you post here. It's futile to debate with you, because your're the typical ignorant Internet-based born-again expert, the likes of you which clog the Internet with useless blogs.

White people did not start slavery here in America.

Now let me educate you a little here, since you're too lazy and cynical to attempt it yourself.

Slavery goes way beyond the scope of white southern plantation owners of colonial America. The Spanish, French, and Dutch established colonies in the Caribbean, Mexico, and South America, and developed those colonies on the backs of African slaves and unwilling native peoples. Those slave-driven colonies were well over a century old before the English Settlers came along. In fact, the first attempts at slavery on the American continent were committed by the Spanish in South America in the mid 1500’s and not white Englishmen. They weren’t even here yet. There were millions and millions of natives who would have provided more than enough slave labor in South America for the Spanish, and would have spared the import of African slaves to this continent. However, when the Spanish set foot in South America, 90% of the native population was wiped out by their European diseases. That’s why Africans were imported here by the Spanish, Dutch, and French. Africans were largely immune to European disease due to their close proximity with Europe. And your fellow ‘black people’ in Africa profited handsomely from exporting their own men, women, and children to New Spain and subsequently over 100 years later to Colonial America. Why do you think those black and brown people in Brazil speak Portuguese? Because, Brazil was an African slave-based colony established by Portugal in the mid 1500’s. The current race of people you see there are a mix of African slaves, Portuguese colonists, and Native Indian. When white British Americans established colonies here in North America, the slave trade on the American continent had long been established by ‘black and brown people’ for well over a century.

White people didn't start slavery, and ironically it was white people in the newly formed United States of America that eventually abolished it. The struggle for equal rights then ensued, and things are largely much better today, and will only get better as generations come.

Trish, you should try getting out of your little Google cut-and-paste cyber world that you troll and plunder for talking points here on HA, and learn a little something about the complex heritage of your fellow species, and not just African Americans. They are but one piece in a huge and complex puzzle called The Human Race.

[InHouston]

Houston we have a problem.

Uh hmm you have have gone off the deep end with this one my friend. Barrack just does not believe in empty gestures like marching in some parade which really don't mean anything. He has devoted his life to public service as has John McCain. Each of them are doing one of the most patriotic things one can do. That is enough proof that both of them are patriots.

As sallam ul lakium.

Barack Obama is a radical afro-centric racist who masquerades as a gentleman who will foist his and Jeremiah Wright’s racist ideology upon America under the guise of ‘Change’. It’s evident in his gestures and what he is not willing to say when asked.

[dafame]

Houston we have a problem.

Uh hmm you have have gone off the deep end with this one my friend. Barrack just does not believe in empty gestures like marching in some parade which really don't mean anything. He has devoted his life to public service as has John McCain. Each of them are doing one of the most patriotic things one can do. That is enough proof that both of them are patriots.

As sallam ul lakium.

Barack Obama is a radical afro-centric racist who masquerades as a gentleman who will foist his and Jeremiah Wright’s racist ideology upon America under the guise of ‘Change’. It’s evident in his gestures and what he is not willing to say when asked.

I'm in total agreement. As I said in a previous post: What is about to take place is a massive overhaul of America that will spread across the world.

You will first see the signs when the white house is painted black. Law will be passed that will restrict everyone from having guns (only black people will all be issued two guns per household on the low). This is for the enforcement that will take place that will restict white people to the farming states in the center of the country (this way blacks will be around you on all sides boxing you in so you can't escape).

There will be auctions and lottery systems instituted for the distribution of property once owned by whites. He will also appoint Kobe Bryant to Govern the state of California in addition to being the starting point gaurd for the Los Angeles Lakers. The Supreme Court will be made up of the original members of the Wu Tang Clan (I'm talking the Rza, Gza, rest in peace O.D.B, Instecta Deck, U-God, Raekwon the Chef, Ghost Face Killa, and M.E.T.H.O.D Man).

We will celebrate a new national holiday (in the black states only) - Pac and Biggie day. All whites will have to tend to their farming responsibilities on this day though because a nigga still gotta eat.

Oh and as for Jerimiah Wright. He'll hold a new Government title (Nubian State Security Chief) and his sole responsibility will be to protect us from the constant threat of an invasion from farming states.

The white people voting for him don't realize what's in store for them but all of us blacks know exactly what's taking place. We've been informed through the closed circuit feed that we all get broadcast from Trinity United Church giving us the instructions on what to do when they give the signal.

Oops..Did I just let the cat out of the bag? Don't tell anyone.

[thx1138]

@In Houston: you said that white people did not start slavery here in America but that French, Spanish and Dutch did. French, Spanish and Dutch ARE white people. :>)

[thx1138]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States Slavery in the United States
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This box: view • talk • edit
Slavery in the United States began soon after English colonists first settled Virginia and lasted until the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Before the widespread establishment of chattel slavery, much labor was organized under a system of bonded labor known as indentured servitude. This typically lasted for several years for white and black alike, and it was a means of using labor to pay the costs of transporting people to the colonies.[1] By the 18th century, court rulings established the racial basis of the American incarnation of slavery to apply chiefly to Black Africans and people of African descent, and occasionally to Native Americans.[2] In part because of the Southern colonies' devotion of resources to tobacco culture, which was labor intensive, by the end of the 17th century they had a higher number and proportion of slaves than in the north.[3]

From 1654 until 1865, slavery for life was legal within the boundaries of the present United States.[4] Most slaves were black and were held by whites, although some Native Americans and free blacks also held slaves. The majority of slaveholding was in the southern United States where most slaves were engaged in an efficient machine-like gang system of agriculture. According to the 1860 U.S. census, nearly four million slaves were held in a total population of just over 12 million in the 15 states in which slavery was legal.[5] Of all 1,515,605 families in the 15 slave states, 393,967 held slaves (roughly one in four),[6] amounting to 8% of all American families.[7] Most households, however, had only a few slaves. The majority of slaves was held by planters, defined by historians as those who held 20 or more slaves.[8] The planters achieved wealth and social and political power. Ninety-five percent of black people lived in the South, comprising one-third of the population there, as opposed to 2% of the population of the North.[9]

[bkkldby]

Houston we have a problem.

Uh hmm you have have gone off the deep end with this one my friend. Barrack just does not believe in empty gestures like marching in some parade which really don't mean anything. He has devoted his life to public service as has John McCain. Each of them are doing one of the most patriotic things one can do. That is enough proof that both of them are patriots.

As sallam ul lakium.

Barack Obama is a radical afro-centric racist who masquerades as a gentleman who will foist his and Jeremiah Wright’s racist ideology upon America under the guise of ‘Change’. It’s evident in his gestures and what he is not willing to say when asked.

I'm in total agreement. As I said in a previous post: What is about to take place is a massive overhaul of America that will spread across the world.

You will first see the signs when the white house is painted black. Law will be passed that will restrict everyone from having guns (only black people will all be issued two guns per household on the low). This is for the enforcement that will take place that will restict white people to the farming states in the center of the country (this way blacks will be around you on all sides boxing you in so you can't escape).

There will be auctions and lottery systems instituted for the distribution of property once owned by whites. He will also appoint Kobe Bryant to Govern the state of California in addition to being the starting point gaurd for the Los Angeles Lakers. The Supreme Court will be made up of the original members of the Wu Tang Clan (I'm talking the Rza, Gza, rest in peace O.D.B, Instecta Deck, U-God, Raekwon the Chef, Ghost Face Killa, and M.E.T.H.O.D Man).

We will celebrate a new national holiday (in the black states only) - Pac and Biggie day. All whites will have to tend to their farming responsibilities on this day though because a nigga still gotta eat.

Oh and as for Jerimiah Wright. He'll hold a new Government title (Nubian State Security Chief) and his sole responsibility will be to protect us from the constant threat of an invasion from farming states.

The white people voting for him don't realize what's in store for them but all of us blacks know exactly what's taking place. We've been informed through the closed circuit feed that we all get broadcast from Trinity United Church giving us the instructions on what to do when they give the signal.

Oops..Did I just let the cat out of the bag? Don't tell anyone.


Sh******T, who edemucated yo azz? :shock: i knew this would happen if those peoplz gotz to go to school on a regular basis. now we in for some real back-lash. :wink: :roll: :lol: :lol: :claps http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/160/160292/folders/275368/2269876Winner.gif http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/160/160292/folders/275368/2269873Emoticon(31).gif http://www.sexforums.com/images/smilies/bestpost.gif http://www.sexforums.com/images/smilies/notworthy.gif

seriously, that has to be one of the best retorts i've read in ages, thanks.http://www.canibus-central.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/lmao.gif http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/160/160292/folders/275368/2269874emoticonexp23.gif

good on ya.

[InHouston]

@In Houston: you said that white people did not start slavery here in America but that French, Spanish and Dutch did. French, Spanish and Dutch ARE white people. :>)

Black African natives provided the slaves to the French, Spanish, and Dutch, and to the English colonies a century later.

[InHouston]

Read my post again.


Slavery in the United States began soon after English colonists first settled Virginia and lasted until the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.


Correct, but slavery in America (the continent not the United States) started in South America initially by the Spanish.


From 1654 until 1865, slavery for life was legal within the boundaries of the present United States.

Yes, but was first introduced to South America (not the United States) by the Spanish in the mid 1500's. Slavery was later introduced into the colonies (soon to be the United States) thereafter, and the slaves were graciously provided by black natives in Africa.

[bkkldby]

i knew i'd seen that face somewhere on the web.

http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/images/2006/247/jeremy-ramos--foley_mrclean215_screen.jpg

http://www.gamespot.com/pages/unions/read_article.php?topic_id=24966957&union_id=177

[Oli]

@In Houston: you said that white people did not start slavery here in America but that French, Spanish and Dutch did. French, Spanish and Dutch ARE white people. :>)

I saw that, nice pickup THX. The Indo-European supergroup includes the Franks (France and Holland) and the Castilians (Spain) as well as the Angles, Saxons, Normans, Jutes and all other ethnic groups in Europe for the last 500 years. All are considered 'white'.


South America is a separate continent from North America.

[trish]

Doesn't much matter who started slavery. Every one who participated ('cept of course for the slaves themselves) was blameworthy. Every one who continues to make excuses for it today is morally bankrupt. Any one who thinks the fact some East African slavers in the eighteenth century were indeed African somehow excuses the practice of slavery in American has got a screw loose. This whole digression into the history of slavery is just a diversionary tactic. This thread began with silly attack on a presidential candidate's patriotism on the basis of flag pins and parade walks. If you're convinced on the basis of that evidence, then you wanted to believe it. Why? Maybe because you're politically biased. Or maybe because your racially biased. Maybe you watch Fox news so much you lost your capicity for critical thinking. Maybe all three.

[InHouston]

Any one who thinks the fact some East African slavers in the eighteenth century were indeed African somehow excuses the practice of slavery in American has got a screw loose.

East African slavers Trish? You're the loose screw behind a keyboard here. All you need do is get out of your blogospheres and pick up a World History book or two.

Refer to the map.

I'll help you out here.
West is on your left
East is on your right

The vast majority of slaves were exported from West Africa by black Africans. Raids by white people into the interior of Africa for slaves occurred to bypass the traders, yet were the exception and not the norm.

Yet again, you demonstrate that you are only good for speculation and bias, and not facts. :smh

Da Nile is not just another river in Egypt Trish.

[Tomfurbs]

The slave-owners in the US were white, SleepingInFearInHouston.

The buck stops there.


You are posting on a Tranny porn site. I can't believe you have such vitriol for the only canditate who respects GLBT rights.

[InHouston]

This thread began with silly attack on a presidential candidate's patriotism on the basis of flag pins and parade walks.

Wrong again Trish. You lack good reading comprehension skills. If you refer back, this thread was primarily started by me when I woke up Sunday morning and watched a former Constitutional Law Professor by the name of Barack Hussein Obama refer to this nation as “a nation, not of men, but of laws”. Yet another Harvard educated idiot.

Apparently, Obama doesn’t comprehend the simple three opening words to the Preamble of the United States Constitution, “We the people …”. Iran is a “nation of laws”, Islamic laws mind you, and it’s Islamic leaders would no doubt applaud Obama’s words in Butte Montana on our nation’s birthday, and no doubt love his name too; Hussein Obama. We are a “nation of people” from which our laws are begotten by the people, and not arbitrarily imposed upon by a tyrannical government or radical regime.


Maybe you watch Fox news so much you lost your :arrow: capicity for critical thinking.

Maybe you could ask me instead of relying on your incessant speculation to frame your biased perception of the world. I don’t sit in one ‘think tank’ of people as you do. As a political Independent and critical thinker, I watch CNN, Fox, MSNBC, and BBC World News to get a complete picture of the news being reported from all sides. They all report … I decide.

You misspelled :arrow: 'capacity'.

[InHouston]

The slave-owners in the US were white, SleepingInFearInHouston.


Brilliant! :roll:

[trish]

Touche' West African. The point still stands: Any one who thinks the fact some WEST African slavers in the eighteenth century were indeed African somehow excuses the practice of slavery in American has got a screw loose. This whole digression into the history of slavery is just a diversionary tactic. This thread began with a silly attack on a presidential candidate's patriotism on the basis of flag pins and parade walks (I just went back and checked...that IS the gist of InHouston's first post). If you're convinced on the basis of that evidence, then you wanted to believe it. Why? Maybe because you're politically biased. Or maybe because you're racially biased. Maybe you watch Fox news so much you lost your CAPACITY for critical thinking. Maybe all three.

[Tomfurbs]

As a political Independent and critical thinker, I watch CNN, Fox, MSNBC, and BBC World News to get a complete picture of the news being reported from all sides.

Oh dear..oh dear....(wipes tears away from his eyes).

[trish]

Maybe you could ask me instead of relying on your incessant speculation to frame your biased perception of the world. I don’t sit in one ‘think tank’ of people as you do. As a political Independent and critical thinker, I watch CNN, Fox, MSNBC, and BBC World News to get a complete picture of the news being reported from all sides. They all report … I decide.


Read carefully. That post wasn't directly addressed to YOU was it, InHouston? Didn't even mention your handle. You think everything is about you. What an adolescent. I notice you didn't mention any newpapers. You, da big decider.

[BrendaQG]

Houston we have a problem.

Uh hmm you have have gone off the deep end with this one my friend. Barrack just does not believe in empty gestures like marching in some parade which really don't mean anything. He has devoted his life to public service as has John McCain. Each of them are doing one of the most patriotic things one can do. That is enough proof that both of them are patriots.

As sallam ul lakium.

Barack Obama is a radical afro-centric racist who masquerades as a gentleman who will foist his and Jeremiah Wright’s racist ideology upon America under the guise of ‘Change’. It’s evident in his gestures and what he is not willing to say when asked.

He would do no such thing. To do that one needs to control the budget. As Jessie "the mind" Ventura likes to remind interviewers of "it's the legislature that controls the budget". The U.S. Congress will be overwhelmingly white, old men including John McCain and Hillary Clinton who will have cause to try and make Obama's life as president difficult, or to humiliate him.

[trish]

InHouston watches MSNBC, FOX...etc. They report. He decides...based on what is
... evident in his[Obama's] gestures. Gestures like flag pin wearing and parade walking. After some tribulation InHouston now claims he didn't start this thread Barack Obama didn't celebrate the 4th of July 2008 to focus on those irrelevancies. He wanted to call attention to a quote of Obama's ("...we are a nation of laws, not men...) which according to InHouston, "hints of monarchy." In fact we ARE a nation of laws, not men...in the sense that men make and amend the laws but no man is above them...we are a constitutional republic. Obama was quoting John Adams, hardly a sympathizer with the Crown. (See Felicia's post on page 5).

[hippifried]

Sounds like Mr Clean's still upset over that little black girl kicking his ass last year, in the 3rd grade.

[El Nino]

[quote=InHouston]As a political Independent and critical thinker, I watch CNN, Fox, MSNBC, and BBC World News to get a complete picture of the news being reported from all sides.


HAHAHAAH and more HAAAAAA

Disney, G.E. and Viacom! With owners like that, you are DEFINITELY getting the "big" picture! Go mind-control!!!

[goldensamba]

Houston we have a problem.

Uh hmm you have have gone off the deep end with this one my friend. Barrack just does not believe in empty gestures like marching in some parade which really don't mean anything. He has devoted his life to public service as has John McCain. Each of them are doing one of the most patriotic things one can do. That is enough proof that both of them are patriots.

As sallam ul lakium.

Barack Obama is a radical afro-centric racist who masquerades as a gentleman who will foist his and Jeremiah Wright’s racist ideology upon America under the guise of ‘Change’. It’s evident in his gestures and what he is not willing to say when asked.

How are John McCain's preacher endorsements or someone like Anne Coulter any different? The right has been using these racist divisive tactics or years and years and you can't see anything beyond the fact that he is non-white and doesn't believe in our garbage ideology. How about Jesse Helms who held office for years? I suppose he wasn't a racist either. Hello pot, this is kettle..................

You may well be one of the most ignorant people I have ever come across.

[dafame]

Houston we have a problem.

Uh hmm you have have gone off the deep end with this one my friend. Barrack just does not believe in empty gestures like marching in some parade which really don't mean anything. He has devoted his life to public service as has John McCain. Each of them are doing one of the most patriotic things one can do. That is enough proof that both of them are patriots.

As sallam ul lakium.

Barack Obama is a radical afro-centric racist who masquerades as a gentleman who will foist his and Jeremiah Wright’s racist ideology upon America under the guise of ‘Change’. It’s evident in his gestures and what he is not willing to say when asked.

Wait a minute... After going through this post again I think I caught on to something you said that I missed the first time around. In referring to Barack being a radical afro-centric racist you spoke of this being evident through his gestures.

Wait a minute...lol Are you referring to him "brushing his shoulders off or the fist bump"?...LOL.. Please tell me that's what you meant if for nothing else but the comedic value...lol

I have to say that I respect your stance my man. I wish more racist people would be upfront the way you are instead of it being like the vast majority of racist who deliberate with a hidden agenda. If all of you guys were upfornt this way I think the country would be better for it.

[Realgirls4me]

(shaking his head)

Let me see if I have this right? The gist of this moronic thread was another weak, moronic swipe at Obama's patriotism via his non-participation in a parade, and now it's about slavery? WTF ???

... I love how many on the Right will do anything -- ANYTHING! -- to sully an opponent by questioning their patriotism, while also denying the cold hard reality that this country is quickly going down the drain. ...Yeah, waving a flag or participating in a parade solves everything. :roll:

[Oli]

I have to say that I respect your stance my man. I wish more racist people would be upfront the way you are instead of it being like the vast majority of racist who deliberate with a hidden agenda. If all of you guys were upfornt this way I think the country would be better for it.

:claps :claps :claps :claps :claps



... I love how many on the Right will do anything -- ANYTHING! -- to sully an opponent by questioning their patriotism, while also having to confront the reality that this country is quickly going down the drain. ...Yeah, waving a flag or participating in a parade solves everything.

:claps :claps :claps :claps :claps

[Cuchulain]

http://www.unionlabel.com/us-flag-lapel-pin.html

A link for the flag pinheads among us. If you need a crutch to show your patriotism, spend a few extra pennies and buy one MADE IN USA BY UNION LABOR instead of made-in-China-by-virtual-slave-labor-and-imported-by-Walmart.

[chefmike]

“You're flag decal won't get you into Heaven anymore. They're already overcrowded from your dirty little war" - John Prine

Ain't that the gospel truth! Prine's song has never been more relevant. I've always loved that guy, and I that it's safe to say that he won't be voting for McSame either!

[Tomfurbs]

8 pages of replies, and all GunNutandProudOfItInHouston can muster is a roll of his twinkle eyes and a lame attempt to blame Africa for slavery.

Speaks volumes.

[dafame]

8 pages of replies, and all GunNutandProudOfItInHouston can muster is a roll of his twinkle eyes and a lame attempt to blame Africa for slavery.

Speaks volumes.

Great point. It's a lost cause trying to speak sensibly to a person like this. That's why I joke about the stuff that comes from this guy. Nothing more than your average racist (cough), I mean Republican.

[hippifried]

http://www.unionlabel.com/us-flag-lapel-pin.html

A link for the flag pinheads among us. If you need a crutch to show your patriotism, spend a few extra pennies and buy one MADE IN USA BY UNION LABOR instead of made-in-China-by-virtual-slave-labor-and-imported-by-Walmart.
Butt butt butt... Butt aren't unions a commie plot?
Rush says so!
We'd all be sooooo much better off if he doesn't have to pay taxes & we can't get a raise.

[Cuchulain]

Btw, when I said 'MADE IN USA' I wasn't talking about Tom Delay's home away from home in the Mariana Islands

http://www.salon.com/news/1999/02/04news.html

and why isn't that pig-fucker in jail yet?

[goldensamba]

Btw, when I said 'MADE IN USA' I wasn't talking about Tom Delay's home away from home in the Mariana Islands

http://www.salon.com/news/1999/02/04news.html

and why isn't that pig-fucker in jail yet?

Because he is one of Bush's good old boys.

Oh wait......aren't the conservatives the authorities on morality?

[chefmike]

GW Bush swore that he would bring back "honor and decency" to the Oval Office, didn't he?

[bkkldby]

GW Bush swore that he would bring back "honor and decency" to the Oval Office, didn't he?

he also said during his campaign (recon for theft of the office) that he could talk to (jawbone) the Saudis and keep the price of oil down.

http://www.perrspectives.com/images/circle-star.gifhttp://www.perrspectives.com/images/banner_text.gif

From here: http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/001072.htm

May 18, 2008
Bush's Jawbone Fails Again

For the second time in two months, President Bush's efforts to "jawbone" his Saudi friends over the cost of oil fell on deaf ears. On Friday, oil surged to a record $127 after Bush's meeting with King Abdullah failed to secure a production increase beyond the meager 300,000 barrels the Saudis previously committed to on May 10th. In all, it was just the latest dismal failure for the jawbone of the Texas oilman who campaigned on his powers of persuasion when it came to OPEC.

As he did in April, Bush pointed the finger of blame at Democrats in Congress for skyrocketing oil prices which have more than tripled during his tenure. Acknowledging that the scheduled Saudi bump in production was "something, but it doesn't solve our problem," the President instead went for the misdirection:

"I said very plainly, I said, 'You've got to be concerned about the effects of high oil prices on some of the biggest customers in the world.' And not only that, of course, high energy prices is going to cause countries like mine to accelerate our move toward alternative energy.

One of the interesting things about American politics these days is those who are screaming the loudest for increased production from Saudi Arabia are the very same people who are fighting the fiercest against domestic exploration, against the development of nuclear power and against expanding refining capacity.

Our problem in America gets solved when we aggressively go for domestic exploration."

For its part, OPEC brushed off Bush's feeble entreaties and rejected calls for an emergency meeting ahead of the cartel's next scheduled gathering in September. On Saturday, the Qatari oil minister put it simply, "The oil market is balanced...There is no threat to or crisis in supply."

George W. Bush's latest failure is a far cry from his promise to get biblical in persuading, cajoling and otherwise arm-twisting OPEC during his first run for the White House in 1999. As oil prices rose to the then-alarming level of $30 that December, then Governor Bush said President Clinton "must jawbone OPEC members to lower prices." At a New Hampshire Republican debate the next month, Bush claimed the mantle of the Great Persuader. Contending that his days in the West Texas oil fields made him uniquely qualified for the task, Bush proclaimed:

"What I think the president ought to do is he ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price...

...I used to be in the oil business. I was little oil -- really little oil. And so I understand the -- I understand what can happen in the marketplace."

By June 2000, the Bush jawbone pledge became a standard on the stump. As the New York Times reported, Bush foreshadowed future expenditures of political capital he would fail to accumulate:

"I would work with our friends in OPEC to convince them to open up the spigot, to increase the supply," Mr. Bush, the presumptive Republican candidate for president, told reporters here today. "Use the capital that my administration will earn, with the Kuwaitis or the Saudis, and convince them to open up the spigot."

That November, of course, the American people were persuaded. Despite Bush's own personal record of busts and bailouts in the business, his family's close ties to Prince Bandar and the Saudi royal family, Americans must have reasoned, should count for something.

As it turned out, not so much.

Confusing master and slave in the American-OPEC relationship, Bush failed at every turn to get his Persian Gulf friends to bump up production or slash prices. Other times, of course, he didn't even try.

In the spring of 2004, the White House trumpeted Saudi Prince Bandar's commitment to maintaining the price of oil in the range of $22 to $28 a barrel. With the price then at $33 a barrel, by April speculation ran rampant that President Bush had secured a deal with the Saudis just in time for the November election. But as a barrel reached then-record levels topping $50, it became clear that both Bush and Bandar were backing off their past pledges. As CBS News reported that September:

As gas topped a record level of $50 a barrel this week, Mr. Bush has shown no propensity to personally pressure, or "jawbone," Mideast oil producers to increase output.

A spokesman for the president reportedly said in March that Mr. Bush will not personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds.

In the spring of 2005, President Bush returned to his failed formula on oil prices. Promising to use his self-proclaimed charm to woo the Saudis, Bush would ultimately leave the American people to the mercy of the marketplace. As the AP detailed:

In a CNBC interview, Bush said he would press the Saudi crown prince to boost production. "I'll be talking to our friends about making sure they understand that if they pinch the world economy too much, it'll affect their ability to sell crude oil in the long run," Bush said.

Jerry Taylor, an energy analyst at the Cato Institute, a Washington-based think tank that advocates less government regulation, said the idea that "jawboning OPEC or arranging for nice relations with OPEC will somehow get us more oil is utter illusion."

An illusion, indeed. As the price of a barrel oil surged into record territory in early March, OPEC dismissed out of hand President Bush's latest use of his jawbone. Pointing to the collapse of the dollar during the Bush presidency and the slumping American economy, OPEC leaders are not budging on production levels or prices:

"OPEC is angry that President Bush wants them to increase production while the dollar is sinking and the administration is doing nothing about that," said Fadel Gheit, an oil analyst at Oppenheimer & Company in New York. "It"s really not surprising that they have ignored him."

The dramatic decline of the dollar, now at a new low of $1.56 to the euro, raises the prospect of a perfect storm from OPEC. The oil cartel could follow through on recent threats to price the currently dollar-denominated petroleum in euros. While Saudi King Abdullah in November 2007 shut down grandstanding talk from Venezuela's Hugo Chavez and Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad about moving away from the "worthless piece of paper," by February 2008 OPEC Secretary-General Abdullah al-Badri suggested the oil cartel over time might make the switch to euro-based pricing. For its part, Tehran followed through on its threat, confirming last month that Iran will no longer accept dollars for oil trades.

Back in Washington, President Bush in April was left to grouse about Congress for a situation he insists is not his fault. In his prepared remarks peppered with accusations of Congressional inaction, Bush opened with a salvo aimed at Capitol Hill. "I've repeatedly submitted proposals to help address these problems," Bush said, "Yet time after time, Congress chose to block them." Ultimately, a frustrated George W. Bush suggested the energy crisis called for a higher power:

"And so I firmly believe that -- you know, if there was a magic wand to wave, I'd be waving it, of course."

Which just goes to show the American people what happens when they place their trust in the jawbone of an ass.


2 great sources of news:

http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/images/buzzflash_logo_120px72dpi.gif
http://www.buzzflash.com/

http://www.legitgov.org/graphics/logosmalr.gif
http://www.legitgov.org/

[hippifried]

Current oil prices aren't about Saudi Arabia at all. They're reaping a windfall, but they aren't jacking up the price. They're just selling on the open market. The market price is set by the traders & speculators on the London exchange.

There's no oil shortage. The Saudis are keeping up with the demand. You can jawbone from now until doomsday, but we shouldn't assume that King Abdullah is stupid or economically suicidal. The kingdom is the world's largest oil producer. So before we start griping about power of the jawbone, the question should be asked: Why would Saudi Arabia go out of their way to create an artificial market glut for the sole purpose of forcing down the price of their only natural resource & export? It's an unreasonable expectation.

[bkkldby]

Current oil prices aren't about Saudi Arabia at all. They're reaping a windfall, but they aren't jacking up the price. They're just selling on the open market. The market price is set by the traders & speculators on the London exchange.

There's no oil shortage. The Saudis are keeping up with the demand. You can jawbone from now until doomsday, but we shouldn't assume that King Abdullah is stupid or economically suicidal. The kingdom is the world's largest oil producer. So before we start griping about power of the jawbone, the question should be asked: Why would Saudi Arabia go out of their way to create an artificial market glut for the sole purpose of forcing down the price of their only natural resource & export? It's an unreasonable expectation.

you may have misunderstood my post.

in no way do i assume that we can talk these oil barons (from any country) into anything. i am simply saying that gw lied to the American public when he said he could OR HE WOULD talk to the Saudis in order to maintain cheap oil process for Americans.

just like he (his party) has lied or obfuscated about 90% of everything else that they have referred to in the last 7 years.

which does not mean other politicos do not also lie, on either side of the aisle.

[thx1138]

I think "inHouston"s real fear about Obama is that he may take away big oil's obscene tax breaks granted by congress. I'll bet my last dollar he's employed in the oil industry in some way.

[dafame]

I think "inHouston"s real fear about Obama is that he may take away big oil's obscene tax breaks granted by congress. I'll bet my last dollar he's employed in the oil industry in some way.

That's more than a fair assumption. After all, he is InHouston.

[hippifried]

you may have misunderstood my post.
Nah, I understood it. It's just that personal experience in political forums has taught me that the slightest mention of Saudi Arabia breaches the flood wall & brings in that ocean of "supply side" drivel from the burn everything as fast as possible crowd. Thought I'd nip it in the bud while I had the chance.

[jaybull]

Why can't someone tell what they feel without everyone getting upset about Obama, and why is there such a racial devide from the people who hold up for Obama?
Most things about Obama are facts, why argue with that, and I don't care how many officer's in the Army didn't do that, I was also in the Army, and no officer ever missed saluting the flag.
Obama says he is christian, yet he placed his hand on the Koran as he was being sworn in...Truth....It is right there in pictures that Obama does not salute the flag by placing his hand over the heart.
And I have a good question for Obama Lovers......Why does Obama want to talk to the German people with the Brandenburg Gate as the back drop, NEVER, NEVER has or will there be a German Presidential running mate go to the Washington Mall to talk to Americans........Why on earth would he want to be in Berlin??????
His wife pretty much says it all, and don't tell me she was misquoted or things were taken out of text.......She said what she wanted to say....
End of Story

[Oli]

Why can't someone tell what they feel without everyone getting upset about Obama, and why is there such a racial devide from the people who hold up for Obama?
Most things about Obama are facts, why argue with that, and I don't care how many officer's in the Army didn't do that, I was also in the Army, and no officer ever missed saluting the flag.
Obama says he is christian, yet he placed his hand on the Koran as he was being sworn in...Truth....It is right there in pictures that Obama does not salute the flag by placing his hand over the heart.
And I have a good question for Obama Lovers......Why does Obama want to talk to the German people with the Brandenburg Gate as the back drop, NEVER, NEVER has or will there be a German Presidential running mate go to the Washington Mall to talk to Americans........Why on earth would he want to be in Berlin??????
His wife pretty much says it all, and don't tell me she was misquoted or things were taken out of text.......She said what she wanted to say....
End of Story

The clear difference between the Army and the Navy on display right there folks...Army guys have swallowed the Kool-Aid. Jay, stop listening to the lies of Rush, O'Reilly , et. al. When you hear something like what's listed above, don't believe it. Research it. It takes only seconds.

Keith Ellison, Representative from Minnesota, (not Barack Obama) is the first Muslim elected to the US Congress

Because Ellison stated an intent to use the Quran instead of a Bible at his photo-op reenactment of the swearing in ceremony (the official ceremony is done en masse without any books).
...during his oath reenactment Ellison used a two volume Quran published in London in 1764 that was once owned by Thomas Jefferson and loaned to Ellison by "the rare book and special collections division at the Library of Congress". According to Ellison, "It demonstrates that from the very beginning of our country, we had people who were visionary, who were religiously tolerant, who believed that knowledge and wisdom could be gleaned from any number of sources, including the Quran

The rest of that convoluted gibberish, to me, is almost incomprehensible so I don't know how to respond to it.

[dafame]

Why can't someone tell what they feel without everyone getting upset about Obama, and why is there such a racial devide from the people who hold up for Obama?
Most things about Obama are facts, why argue with that, and I don't care how many officer's in the Army didn't do that, I was also in the Army, and no officer ever missed saluting the flag.
Obama says he is christian, yet he placed his hand on the Koran as he was being sworn in...Truth....It is right there in pictures that Obama does not salute the flag by placing his hand over the heart.
And I have a good question for Obama Lovers......Why does Obama want to talk to the German people with the Brandenburg Gate as the back drop, NEVER, NEVER has or will there be a German Presidential running mate go to the Washington Mall to talk to Americans........Why on earth would he want to be in Berlin??????
His wife pretty much says it all, and don't tell me she was misquoted or things were taken out of text.......She said what she wanted to say....
End of Story

I talk about this in an earlier post on in this thread. You should go back and read it. You guys have no idea what's actually taking place do you??...lol

[dafame]

Why can't someone tell what they feel without everyone getting upset about Obama, and why is there such a racial devide from the people who hold up for Obama?
Most things about Obama are facts, why argue with that, and I don't care how many officer's in the Army didn't do that, I was also in the Army, and no officer ever missed saluting the flag.
Obama says he is christian, yet he placed his hand on the Koran as he was being sworn in...Truth....It is right there in pictures that Obama does not salute the flag by placing his hand over the heart.
And I have a good question for Obama Lovers......Why does Obama want to talk to the German people with the Brandenburg Gate as the back drop, NEVER, NEVER has or will there be a German Presidential running mate go to the Washington Mall to talk to Americans........Why on earth would he want to be in Berlin??????
His wife pretty much says it all, and don't tell me she was misquoted or things were taken out of text.......She said what she wanted to say....
End of Story

I do have a question for you though Jay. Do you identify with a particular religion? Are you Christian, Muslim, etc...? Or do you have no belief?

[trish]

jaybull ejaculates:
Most things about Obama are facts?????

All facts about Obama are facts and all lies about Obama are lies.

It’s true that he swore his oath of office on the BIBLE.
It’s a Fox News LIE that he swore on the Koran. [See Oli’s post above…your laughable friends at Fox News have him confused with Keith Ellison…actually they aren’t confused, but they’re doing a good job at confusing you].

It’s true that Obama stands reverently and with folded hands during performances of the National Anthem, AS DO MANY PATRIOTIC AMERICANS.

That stuff about Army officers never missing an opportunity to salute the flag...that's jaybullshit. My uncle (we call him that, actually he’s my father’s uncle) who fought and survived Normandy stands with his hands at his side and listens with pride as others around him sing the Anthem. (He says he never could carry a tune).


Why does Obama want to talk to the German people with the Brandenburg Gate...?
Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy spoke there. In case Fox News didn’t fill you in on that, they were U.S. presidents of the last century. Now I admit they spoke AT the Brandenburg Gate. I don't know why Obama wants to talk WITH the Brandenburg Gate. But I bet it'll be something to see.

I do believe the German Chancellor Angela Merkel held a press conference with Bush on the White House lawn not too long ago.


Why can't someone tell what they feel without everyone getting upset about Obama, and why is there such a racial devide from the people who hold up for Obama?

Throw shit and people will toss it back. That’s human nature. If you read the posts in this “double thread” I think you will find very few Obama supporters focusing on race; and when they do it’s almost always in answer to an Obama detractor making silly claims of racism…like yours.


His wife pretty much says it all.
Here we totally agree. To bad the
End of Storycame before you could remember what she said.

[El Nino]

House Keeping

[Oli]

Don't be a sore loser El Nino

http://swordattheready.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/ron-paul-babies.jpg

[trish]

Oh wow, El Nino...I never thought of that. How insightful.

[El Nino]

House Keeping

[dafame]

Hey Trish, this just in: Obama is a HUGE lying bucket of puss!!

Stop now El Nino. Just stop.

[dafame]

Trish you shouldn't waist your time reasoning with a person like jaybull. He's a Republican. It wasn't until this process began that I realized just how different they truly are.

They are so engulfed in Republicanism that they can't be reasoned with. They WANT, no THEY NEED to believe all of the lies that Fox News and other sources that have no credibility are trying to spread about Obama. They HAVE to believe them because to do otherwise forces them to go against their Republicanism.

You just have to let them be. They are going to continue to believe in and spread the lies no matter what you point out to them. THEY WILL FIND A WAY to discredit the truth rebuttal or they'll turn to Hannity, O'Reilly, or Limbaugh to see if they've found another way of telling the lie so they can continue to believe. Allow them that.

[goldensamba]

All i can say is wow. How do people get this dumb? And we wonder why the world hates us.......

Oh wait...they hate us "for our freedom"

LOL

[thx1138]

This thread doesn't matter. Johnny McSame just lost the election: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/07/09/mccain-calls-the-social-security-system-a-total-disgrace/#comments

[thx1138]

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/07/09/new-obama-ad-on-energy-debunks-mccains-inaccurate-attacks/#comments

[thx1138]

as well as Fox News. This is a perfect example of how he lies and distorts facts to demonize whomever he wants: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-wifebeating-thats-fine-ndash-unless-youre-a-muslim-862898.html BTW: Murdoch has close ties to the Israeli military. So now you know whose agenda he's promoting.

[Cuchulain]

This thread doesn't matter. Johnny McSame just lost the election: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/07/09/mccain-calls-the-social-security-system-a-total-disgrace/#comments

I doubt it. McCain will backpedal and flipflop like he does every time he puts his foot in his mouth. And his buddies in the press corp will let him get away with it. FOX and the other REICHwingers will hammer away about Social Security being doomed and unfair Socialism, never mentioning that simply taking the cap off earnings (currently we don't pay SS tax on income above 100K ) would end any worries about the program running out of money. Obama is the only Pres candidate who's had the balls to mention it.

[trish]

defame advices:
Trish you shouldn't waist your time reasoning with a person like jaybull.

I mostly agree. In fact, I doubt he'll even check back to read the responses. He invoked "End of Story" status. In three different threads InHouston actually told us the argument was over and he's not checking back. I have no illusion that closed minds can be opened to the light of reason. I don't respond for their benefit...I just want others who visit our pages to think well of us. We can't let our pages become a billboard for the neo-con talking points of the day.

Also, I like writing. It gives me a chance to rethink and organize my thoughts. It forces me to back my arguments with public evidence rather than private anecdote. It's an exercise in thinking critically and usually constructively. When I notice my own responses becoming destructive, I try to stop. But when provoked, I don't always succeed.

[dafame]

defame advices:
Trish you shouldn't waist your time reasoning with a person like jaybull.

I mostly agree. In fact, I doubt he'll even check back to read the responses. He invoked "End of Story" status. In three different threads InHouston actually told us the argument was over and he's not checking back. I have no illusion that closed minds can be opened to the light of reason. I don't respond for their benefit...I just want others who visit our pages to think well of us. We can't let our pages become a billboard for the neo-con talking points of the day.

Also, I like writing. It gives me a chance to rethink and organize my thoughts. It forces me to back my arguments with public evidence rather than private anecdote. It's an exercise in thinking critically and usually constructively. When I notice my own responses becoming destructive, I try to stop. But when provoked, I don't always succeed.

That's my girl. :claps

[bkkldby]

Obama says he is christian, yet he placed his hand on the Koran as he was being sworn in...Truth....

NOT

Taken form this link: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_obama.html

Swore on Koran? The e-mail says "when he was sworn into office he DID NOT use the Holy Bible, but instead the Koran" – bunk yet again. Obama did not place his hand on the Koran when he was sworn into the U.S. Senate. This claim confuses Obama with the first and only Muslim member of Congress, Democratic House member Keith Ellison of Minnesota. Obama was sworn in using his own Bible, as widely reported in newspaper accounts and pictured above. That's his wife holding the Bible with Vice President Dick Cheney swearing him in. (Under the Constitution, the vice president serves as president of the Senate.)

and here: http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/ellison.asp

Claim: A newly-elected Muslim Congressman took his oath of office on the Quran instead of the Bible.

Status: Partly true.

Example: [Collected via e-mail, 2006]

A first for America ...The Koran replaces the Bible at swearing-in oath

What book will America base it's values on, the Bible or the Koran?

Please take a moment to read the following TownHall.com column by Dennis Prager, who is a Jew. After reading the column, please forward it to your friends and family.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

America, Not Keith Ellison, decides what book a congressman takes his oath on

Keith Ellison, D-Minn., the first Muslim elected to the United States Congress, has announced that he will not take his oath of office on the Bible, but on the bible of Islam, the Koran.

He should not be allowed to do so — not because of any American hostility to the Koran, but because the act undermines American civilization.

[Rest of article here.]

Origins: In November 2006, Democrat Keith Ellison won election to the House as a representative of his Minnesota congressional district. When Ellison took office in January 2007, he became the first Muslim member of Congress.

In November 2006, some Americans took offense at Ellison's announcement that he planned to utilize the Quran rather than the Bible at the upcoming Congressional swearing-in ceremonies. (The controversy has since mistakenly become associated with Illinois Senator Barack Obama, who is not a Muslim and did not use a Quran in conjunction with a Congressional ceremony.) Among the many who criticized Ellison's announcement was Los Angeles-based talk radio host Dennis Prager, who penned the above-cited editorial in which he opined that Representative-elect Ellison
"should not be allowed ... to take his oath of office on the bible of Islam, the Koran" and that "if you are incapable of taking an oath on [the Bible], don't serve in Congress."

While the general basis of the controversy is real, editorials like the one appearing in TownHall.com erred in maintaining that Ellison would be sworn into Congress by taking an oath with his hand upon the Quran. Actually, no Bibles or other religious texts are used during the swearing-in ceremony for the House of Representatives — incoming House members simply stand in front of the speaker's podium en masse, raise their right hands, and recite an oath in which they swear to uphold the Constitution. Bibles are generally either carried by new House members during the ceremony or don't make an appearance until the newly-sworn Congressmen pose with them during a post-swearing-in photo opportunity with the Speaker of the House:
When newly elected members of Congress raise their right hands to take the oath of office in January, they won't be placing their left hands on the Bible or any other religious text.

During official swearing-in ceremonies, newly elected members don't place their hand on any book. However, individual members may choose to carry a sacred text.

"Some members carry a Bible. You don't actually put your hand on a Bible. I can't see how anyone would object to carrying a Qur'an," said Senate historian Don Ritchie.

In Congress, the House speaker administers the oath to members en masse on the House floor. It's up to individual members if they want to hold a religious text, said Fred Beuttler, House deputy historian.

First-time members are more likely to carry a sacred text or have their family and religious leader present for a staged ceremony in the speaker's or their own office, Beuttler said.
Accordingly, although Ellison was not technically sworn in with the Quran, after the official swearing-in ceremony he posed for photographs with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, both of them posed with their hands upon a copy of the Quran once owned by Thomas Jefferson:

these pics were not able to be hot linked, sorry. to see picks go to URL.

A rebuttal to Dennis Prager's editorial written by UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh was published by the National Review.


and here too: http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071118154251AAym59N

Of course not! What is your source? First and foremost, the Congress only swears in Senators using the bible. It's not to the incoming senator to select which book he or she will swear on. Dick Cheney swore in Obama. Do you think Cheney would hold the Koran for a swearing? Get real! Secondly, why do people like you continually question the patriotism of Obama? You are willing to look at a internet circulated picture or go on hearsay about something so important as patroitism. The national anthem was being played when the picture was taken of him with his hands in front of him. I have been in numerous events (from baseball to graduations) where the majority of Americans don't place their hands over their hearts for the national anthem.

[bkkldby]

simply put ... (see image)

too much to hope for i guess.

[jaybull]

Why can't someone tell what they feel without everyone getting upset about Obama, and why is there such a racial devide from the people who hold up for Obama?
Most things about Obama are facts, why argue with that, and I don't care how many officer's in the Army didn't do that, I was also in the Army, and no officer ever missed saluting the flag.
Obama says he is christian, yet he placed his hand on the Koran as he was being sworn in...Truth....It is right there in pictures that Obama does not salute the flag by placing his hand over the heart.
And I have a good question for Obama Lovers......Why does Obama want to talk to the German people with the Brandenburg Gate as the back drop, NEVER, NEVER has or will there be a German Presidential running mate go to the Washington Mall to talk to Americans........Why on earth would he want to be in Berlin??????
His wife pretty much says it all, and don't tell me she was misquoted or things were taken out of text.......She said what she wanted to say....
End of Story

The clear difference between the Army and the Navy on display right there folks...Army guys have swallowed the Kool-Aid. Jay, stop listening to the lies of Rush, O'Reilly , et. al. When you hear something like what's listed above, don't believe it. Research it. It takes only seconds.

Keith Ellison, Representative from Minnesota, (not Barack Obama) is the first Muslim elected to the US Congress

Because Ellison stated an intent to use the Quran instead of a Bible at his photo-op reenactment of the swearing in ceremony (the official ceremony is done en masse without any books).
...during his oath reenactment Ellison used a two volume Quran published in London in 1764 that was once owned by Thomas Jefferson and loaned to Ellison by "the rare book and special collections division at the Library of Congress". According to Ellison, "It demonstrates that from the very beginning of our country, we had people who were visionary, who were religiously tolerant, who believed that knowledge and wisdom could be gleaned from any number of sources, including the Quran

The rest of that convoluted gibberish, to me, is almost incomprehensible so I don't know how to respond to it.I don't know what the hell you're talking about the difference between the army and navy, and I have never listened to Rush or O'Reilly, they are too conservative, and behind Bush who I dislike with abandon. As for Obama and the Koran (Quran) I never did say Obama was the first in anything. Don't put false accusations in peoples mouths unless you know what you are talking about.
It was researched and is well known about Obama, get your head out of you a.. And as for saying the rest was convoluted gibberish, then apparently you can't take hearing the truth.....I just see the facts, so face up to them.....I am not republican, and do want a democrat in office, but I really didn't like any of the candidates. Face the facts

[dafame]

Why can't someone tell what they feel without everyone getting upset about Obama, and why is there such a racial devide from the people who hold up for Obama?
Most things about Obama are facts, why argue with that, and I don't care how many officer's in the Army didn't do that, I was also in the Army, and no officer ever missed saluting the flag.
Obama says he is christian, yet he placed his hand on the Koran as he was being sworn in...Truth....It is right there in pictures that Obama does not salute the flag by placing his hand over the heart.
And I have a good question for Obama Lovers......Why does Obama want to talk to the German people with the Brandenburg Gate as the back drop, NEVER, NEVER has or will there be a German Presidential running mate go to the Washington Mall to talk to Americans........Why on earth would he want to be in Berlin??????
His wife pretty much says it all, and don't tell me she was misquoted or things were taken out of text.......She said what she wanted to say....
End of Story

The clear difference between the Army and the Navy on display right there folks...Army guys have swallowed the Kool-Aid. Jay, stop listening to the lies of Rush, O'Reilly , et. al. When you hear something like what's listed above, don't believe it. Research it. It takes only seconds.

Keith Ellison, Representative from Minnesota, (not Barack Obama) is the first Muslim elected to the US Congress

Because Ellison stated an intent to use the Quran instead of a Bible at his photo-op reenactment of the swearing in ceremony (the official ceremony is done en masse without any books).
...during his oath reenactment Ellison used a two volume Quran published in London in 1764 that was once owned by Thomas Jefferson and loaned to Ellison by "the rare book and special collections division at the Library of Congress". According to Ellison, "It demonstrates that from the very beginning of our country, we had people who were visionary, who were religiously tolerant, who believed that knowledge and wisdom could be gleaned from any number of sources, including the Quran

The rest of that convoluted gibberish, to me, is almost incomprehensible so I don't know how to respond to it.I don't know what the hell you're talking about the difference between the army and navy, and I have never listened to Rush or O'Reilly, they are too conservative, and behind Bush who I dislike with abandon. As for Obama and the Koran (Quran) I never did say Obama was the first in anything. Don't put false accusations in peoples mouths unless you know what you are talking about.
It was researched and is well known about Obama, get your head out of you a.. And as for saying the rest was convoluted gibberish, then apparently you can't take hearing the truth.....I just see the facts, so face up to them.....I am not republican, and do want a democrat in office, but I really didn't like any of the candidates. Face the facts

Damn I hate to do this but the guy ignored my initial post regarding him (as expected) so I'll go against the grain and let him have it.

Question smart guy: Can we agree that both the Democrats as well as Republicans want to win the White House? Ok, with that said allow me to as you this. Do you think that it might be even slightly plausible that this information that is "well known" about Obama being a Muslim and being sworn into the Senate using the Koran, would force him to drop out of the race?

Think about it my man. I'm going to break this down real common sense like that way there's no confusion.

If a man would lie about something as sacred as his religion then he would lie about any and everything. I'll get back to the larger point but let's focus on that for a minute.

Are you expecting people to believe that this man wants to be the President SOOO Badly that he would say "Fuck My God". The God that I believe in and have dedicated my life to. I have to denounce you, my God, and everything I believe. And yes "my God" I realize that this may seal my fate in the afterlife (anyone that believes in a God believes in an afterlife right) but fuck it, I want to be the President of the United States of America.

Now back to the larger point. Being that this information is again, "well known", don't you think that the Republicans would be using it? No wait a minute, before you rebut with the "they are using it, i heard my Uncle Rush talking about it the other day", let me fill you in on something.

This wouldn't be considered a flip-flop. This isn't on the scale of the Fisa Bill or campaign finance my man. No, this would be astronomically larger than that if it were true. This is the type of lie that would FORCE HIM (not have him contemplate), that's right, FORCE HIM to not only drop out of the Presidential race, but get out of politics all together.

With the Republicans knowing this (that is that he is really a Muslim and has denounced his God for the time being for the sake of a Presidential Campaign) there would be such an outcry from the Republican and Democrats to sit this man down somewhere and get the truth out of him. Because if he did that (lied about his religious faith) he would get probably 2% of the total vote come November at best.

If there was even a slight chance that this could be true it would be the leading story on every network,every day, until either A) he is proven to have politically postured his God to the side (which means he losing in a landslide come November) or B) it is disproved and the store goes away.

Common sense my man. What separates us from the other species on this planet is the ability to reason and process complex thought. You SHOULD be able to take the complex part out of this and store it away for something that the simple reasoning part can't handle, but apparently they've both failed you.

[Oli]

I don't know what the hell you're talking about the difference between the army and navy

I was in the Navy, you have demonstrated that the Army has lowered their recruiting standards


I have never listened to Rush or O'Reilly, they are too conservative, and behind Bush who I dislike with abandon.

Yet you believe and reiterate the lies and distortions the far Right spread about Obama, verbatim.


As for Obama and the Koran (Quran) I never did say Obama was the first in anything. Don't put false accusations in peoples mouths unless you know what you are talking about.

No, you didn't say he was the first, but you did say he was sworn in using the Quran, which is blatantly false. Not an accusation, just the real truth, as demonstrated by myself and bkkldby.


It was researched and is well known about Obama,

Obviously not well researched, and supposition passes for fact with you.


get your head out of you a.. And as for saying the rest was convoluted gibberish, then apparently you can't take hearing the truth.....

Can you document, or post links to any of it? There isn't a shred of truth in there.


I just see the facts, so face up to them.....I am not republican, and do want a democrat in office, but I really didn't like any of the candidates. Face the facts

If you only see facts, you should take off the cheap sunglasses and look at what you're doing. Believing lies and political tactics that prey on your fears is as old as mass political movements that employ them. You are spreading lies that you have obviously taken to be truthful.

[thx1138]

Fox News on Michelle Obama. How can they stand to look at themselves in a mirror?
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/07/10/fox-attacks-michelle-obama/#comments

[hippifried]

I'm going to break this down real common sense like that way there's no confusion.
Uh... Hey Dafame. Did you forget who you were addressing?

I know I know. It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment. :lol:

:deadhorse

[jaybull]

German officials say they are concerned about a possible stop in Germany by U.S. Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., for a speech.

The rumor is that Obama, the likely Democratic presidential nominee, would speak at the Brandenburg Gate, feet away from the Berlin Wall, if he travels to Berlin, CNN reported. President Ronald Reagan stood at the gate in 1987 when he urged Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev to tear down this wall.

But Reagan was president and Obama is not, so it wouldn't be proper for Illinois' junior senator to speak at the landmark, German officials said.

Thomas Steg, spokesman for German Chancellor Angela Merkel, said it would be inappropriate for candidates to campaign in Germany.

I think he should sense right now at this very moment that the Brandenburg Gate is not the place to go, Jan Techau of the German Council on Foreign Relations told CNN. He should opt for another place. People have suggested the (town hall) where Kennedy spoke, which is less of a symbolic place, ironically.

Copyright 2008 by United Press International

[dafame]

I'm going to break this down real common sense like that way there's no confusion.
Uh... Hey Dafame. Did you forget who you were addressing?

I know I know. It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment. :lol:

:deadhorse

Which post are you referring to? I back tracked and they all appear to be cool but maybe I missed something.

[Oli]

German officials say they are concerned about a possible stop in Germany by U.S. Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., for a speech.

The rumor is that Obama, the likely Democratic presidential nominee, would speak at the Brandenburg Gate, feet away from the Berlin Wall, if he travels to Berlin, CNN reported. President Ronald Reagan stood at the gate in 1987 when he urged Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev to tear down this wall.

But Reagan was president and Obama is not, so it wouldn't be proper for Illinois' junior senator to speak at the landmark, German officials said.

Thomas Steg, spokesman for German Chancellor Angela Merkel, said it would be inappropriate for candidates to campaign in Germany.

I think he should sense right now at this very moment that the Brandenburg Gate is not the place to go, Jan Techau of the German Council on Foreign Relations told CNN. He should opt for another place. People have suggested the (town hall) where Kennedy spoke, which is less of a symbolic place, ironically.

Copyright 2008 by United Press International

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Thanks for putting that up. I've take the liberty to highlight a couple of things in the text you've posted that should help clarify my point. As the article mentions, 3 times no less (possible, rumor and if), he may stop for a speech in Berlin. If the German government says no, than he will not. You're offended by a possible campaign stop by a candidate who needs to burnish his foreign relation credentials? Come on dude, I mean, Really?

[hippifried]

I'm going to break this down real common sense like that way there's no confusion.
Uh... Hey Dafame. Did you forget who you were addressing?

I know I know. It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment. :lol:

:deadhorse

Which post are you referring to? I back tracked and they all appear to be cool but maybe I missed something.
The last post on page 11.
You made the legitimate point that common sense allieves confusion, usually, but you were talking to Jaybull.

Sorry, but it just struck me as an amusing exercise in futility.

[dafame]

I'm going to break this down real common sense like that way there's no confusion.
Uh... Hey Dafame. Did you forget who you were addressing?

I know I know. It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment. :lol:

:deadhorse

Which post are you referring to? I back tracked and they all appear to be cool but maybe I missed something.
The last post on page 11.
You made the legitimate point that common sense allieves confusion, usually, but you were talking to Jaybull.

Sorry, but it just struck me as an amusing exercise in futility.

Oh ok. I ended up figuring out thats what you meant but I admit it took me a while...lol

[dafame]

I'm going to break this down real common sense like that way there's no confusion.
Uh... Hey Dafame. Did you forget who you were addressing?

I know I know. It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment. :lol:

:deadhorse

Which post are you referring to? I back tracked and they all appear to be cool but maybe I missed something.
The last post on page 11.
You made the legitimate point that common sense allieves confusion, usually, but you were talking to Jaybull.

Sorry, but it just struck me as an amusing exercise in futility.

Oh ok. I ended up figuring out thats what you meant but I admit it took me a while...lol

[Cuchulain]

Dubya opposes Obama speech at the Brandenburg Gate:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/10/report-bush-privately-tol_n_111993.html

"Merkel's foreign policy adviser Christoph Heusgen was "taken to task," "snapped at," or "berated" by a Bush aide."

[hippifried]

There needs to be an emoticon for something zinging over your head. :shrug :lol:

[dickdasterly]

I have lurked on this site for a very long time and never once commented.

But I have to now. InHouston please just tell everyone why you are so afraid of this African American running the country. Be as frank as possible and forget all these little signs that you spot. You are on the internet so no one knows you personally Just be as frank as possible!!!!

I find that all your reasoning are so petty. Go to any sporting event and count all the people singing the national anthem with their hands over their hearts. Because he doesn't wear a pin he is going to overthrow the government? You say the constitution. The constitution states the separation of church and state.Which means that my religion does not matter if I run for office. You want it both ways. If Obama is a Muslim why would he follow the infidel Wright, who is a Christian. So what you are telling us is that the Muslim terrorist are going to work with the Christians , who the Muslims say are trying to destroy Islam to take over America. There are 3 branches of Government I dont have to quote them to you because you know what they are. One man can not take over this country or make any moves that could cause this country to come under the rule of one man.

You fear this man who has not even taken the oath but yet you let the present leader of this country erode the rights of the people of this country under the guise of stopping terrorist, but your agendas only concern is that they catch anyone who doesn't look like you or speak without an accent.

You sat back and watch as the President refuse to testify under oath and refuse to have the Attorney General the highest lawyer in the country testify under oath. They refuse to release their records in office which can become public record. The economy is in shambles, we are in a war that the president refuse's to end. If anything we are subject to being attacked by terrorist more than ever now because we refuse to get out, and continue to push America's agenda when it is not wanted.

In 1942 Mich. at the Ford plant African Americans were hired to work in the plants because many White American men were going to war. But one whit Worker was quoted as saying "I'd rather let Hitler win the war than work next to some Nigger" If that doesn't show you how much hate someone has for a race of people what does?

You have that hate but know that in this day and time you can not display it. but since you are on the internet you should have no problem letting it out. I really find it hard to believe that as racist as you are that you are even on this site!!! I mean this site goes against all the fundamental principles of conservative beliefs it deals with Homosexuality, race mingling, open sex and prostitution.

Are you one of those stiff collar White Men who let hung Black Trannies dominate you? Why are you on this site???????

[InHouston]

I have lurked on this site for a very long time and never once commented.

But I have to now. InHouston please just tell everyone why you are so afraid of this African American running the country. Be as frank as possible and forget all these little signs that you spot. You are on the internet so no one knows you personally Just be as frank as possible!!!!

I find that all your reasoning are so petty. Go to any sporting event and count all the people singing the national anthem with their hands over their hearts. Because he doesn't wear a pin he is going to overthrow the government? You say the constitution. The constitution states the separation of church and state.Which means that my religion does not matter if I run for office. You want it both ways. If Obama is a Muslim why would he follow the infidel Wright, who is a Christian. So what you are telling us is that the Muslim terrorist are going to work with the Christians , who the Muslims say are trying to destroy Islam to take over America. There are 3 branches of Government I dont have to quote them to you because you know what they are. One man can not take over this country or make any moves that could cause this country to come under the rule of one man.

You fear this man who has not even taken the oath but yet you let the present leader of this country erode the rights of the people of this country under the guise of stopping terrorist, but your agendas only concern is that they catch anyone who doesn't look like you or speak without an accent.

You sat back and watch as the President refuse to testify under oath and refuse to have the Attorney General the highest lawyer in the country testify under oath. They refuse to release their records in office which can become public record. The economy is in shambles, we are in a war that the president refuse's to end. If anything we are subject to being attacked by terrorist more than ever now because we refuse to get out, and continue to push America's agenda when it is not wanted.

In 1942 Mich. at the Ford plant African Americans were hired to work in the plants because many White American men were going to war. But one whit Worker was quoted as saying "I'd rather let Hitler win the war than work next to some Nigger" If that doesn't show you how much hate someone has for a race of people what does?

You have that hate but know that in this day and time you can not display it. but since you are on the internet you should have no problem letting it out. I really find it hard to believe that as racist as you are that you are even on this site!!! I mean this site goes against all the fundamental principles of conservative beliefs it deals with Homosexuality, race mingling, open sex and prostitution.

Are you one of those stiff collar White Men who let hung Black Trannies dominate you? Why are you on this site???????

Back in the day, I was excited at the prospect of Colon Powell running for president, until his wife insisted he shouldn't due to the risk of assasination. And, I didn't vote for John Kerry and he's white. So, give yourself a good pat on the back; you're an idiot.

[trish]

Back when Clinton tried to address the issue of gays in the military, one might have hoped that a man in Colon Powell's position would've stood on the side of justice and equality. But then as now he stands against gays in the military.

Later, as Secretary of State in the Bush administration, Colon Powell knew the evidence of WMDs in Iraq was cherry picked; moreover he was against the invasion of Iraq. Yet, even though he was Secretary of State, he allowed the Bush administration to cut him out of the discussions and decisions that led to our bombing Baghdad.

In short Colon Powell is a homophobe and a political coward. He'll never have my vote; even for dog-catcher.

So you see, InHouston, we are alike in a couple of ways. We don't vote on race and we're both atheists.

[hippifried]

They're all cowards. Easy to spot too. the ones with the loudest mouths & most threatening tone are usually the biggest pansies. I have yet to find a dittohead that isn't a wimp.

[dickdasterly]

I'am an idiot but you still did not answer any questions, Typical of the undercover racist, "I have a black friend" Please explain the current administration and all the failures of the past 8 years. We now have someone who is actually doing something different in Washington and they use and try everything they possibly can to discredit him. He has no experience, how bout that VP choice? talk about experience; less than 2 years as governor and mayor of a town of 9000.

A heart beat away from running the country. This choice was really thought out. It was a panic move if I ever saw one!!!! Any comments InHouston???

[InHouston]

I'am an idiot but you still did not answer any questions, Typical of the undercover racist, "I have a black friend" Please explain the current administration and all the failures of the past 8 years. We now have someone who is actually doing something different in Washington and they use and try everything they possibly can to discredit him. He has no experience, how bout that VP choice? talk about experience; less than 2 years as governor and mayor of a town of 9000.

A heart beat away from running the country. This choice was really thought out. It was a panic move if I ever saw one!!!! Any comments InHouston???

And then you have Obama's extensive experience. Consistently voted "Present" in the senate and taking no position on votes that could affect him politically. And prior to becoming a senator he beat the streets Chicago trying to get people registered to vote. Whoop Dee Do. He's only concerned with his career, and he's accomplished nothing other than graduating from Harvard.

As far as all the failures of the past 8 years, I think the past 8 years have gone well for this country. We have a president who isn't afraid to take a position, have an opinion, and act. We haven't been attacked since, we have 100,000 soldiers parked right on the border of Iran, and at the same time turning Iraq into one of the largest allied arab countries in the Middle East. Contrary to all the discourse on Iraq, the Iraqi people want us there and welcome what we've done and the direction their country is going.

[trish]

I think the past 8 years have gone well for this country. We have a president who isn't afraid to take a position, have an opinion, and act.

What we have are two oil men in the white house who are both looking forward to retire and reap in the profits of their pandering…just like old man Bush. We have a president who looked into the Putin’s soul at a glance and saw a man he could trust. It’s not a enough to have an opinion and stick by it. A president needs to hear all opinions and be capable of re-evaluating his or her position when the situation requires it.


We haven't been attacked since, we have 100,000 soldiers parked right on the border of Iran, and at the same time turning Iraq into one of the largest allied arab countries in the Middle East.

We’ve been attacked every day since we’ve sent troops into Iraq. How else did we lose over 3000 soldiers. (Ten times that many have suffered severely debilitating injuries btw). Even now bombs go off in Baghdad every day and people die.



Contrary to all the discourse on Iraq, the Iraqi people want us there...

Yes. You are right. That is contrary to all discourse on Iraq, which of course includes all the discourse by the Iraqi.

[hippifried]

What's all this crap about experience? Time for a reality check.

Sarah Palin has more executive "experience" than McCain, Obama, & Biden combined. If "experience" was a prerequisite for being President, we wouldn't have one. If it was a prerequisite for getting a party nomination, this would be a race between Governors Richardson & Huckabee, with Richardson winning hands down because he has real experience with foreign policy & national energy policy. There are only 4 people on the planet that have "experience" at being President of the United States of America. Jimmy Carter, George HW Bush, Bill Clinton, & George W Bush. None of them are running for the office.

Sarah Palin & Joe Biden are not running for POTUS. Barack Obama & John McCain are. So where does the "experience" debate come in?

Ok ok I'll grant the republican claim that Barack Obama doesn't have a lot of "experience". But those same people make the claim that John McCain does. Where is it? When was the last time he negotiated a treaty? Or anything else for that matter? He's never represented the nation on the world stage. He's never been in a position of command. He's never even gone out & looked for a real job. I'll give him all his props for how he conducted himself as a POW, but that doesn't qualify him for anything else. Being a jet jockey & a pentagon lobbyist doesn't make one an expert in military strategy or foreign affairs. His entire claim to fame in the Congress is a single piece of legislation that took a decade to pass & is so riddled with loopholes that it might as well be non-existent. So where's all this "experience" I keep hearing about? At least Obama isn't making false claims on this non-issue.

[dickdasterly]

Sorry IH the last 8 years are not so great the economy is in shambles. we spend 10 billion a month in Iraq, come on now 100,000 troops on the border of Iran? To do what???? We have no Allies buy the show of force of all the other countries have in Iraq. "0" we alone are carrying the burden there!!! The President is a joke over seas. I wish I could remember which time magazine I read, because many of the ambassadors of the Arab countries think GW is a joke. In the story the said that he thinks that when he can call you by your first name that you are his friend and will listen to him.

He feels that any request that he makes you should be able to answer and commit to with out having to speak to others in your government to make a decision. they laugh at him behind his back.

He has kissed the Saudis ass since 9/11 the when oil prices went through the roof he put his tail between his legs flew to the Saudis to kiss their ass and ask them to raise the oil out put looking them dead in the eye Texas style and they said fuck you!!!! NO!!!!! What did he do?????? he flew back to Crawford!!!!

Yeah he took a stand and made some decisions problem was a great deal of them were wrong!!! and to compile it even further he wont admit it!!!!

We haven't been attacked again by terrorist because they accomplished what they wanted; to destroy the world trade center. For their ignorant ass the World Trade Center is just that; "WORLD TRADE CENTER" They calculated wrong, They felt that those 2 buildings represented America and all it's wealth. Dont you think on any given day they could blow up the NY subways? They could never hijack an another plane with Americans on board after 9/11 because they know they would never reach their target.

How can you say he ran a good Presidency when has had more people leave their post than any other president???? Do you think the middle east will ever surrender??? They have been fighting for 2000 years why should they stop now. They have us in a good position, using our best resource to fight a protracted war with in a country. George Bush forgot the lessons of Viet Nam you are trying to change a culture and impose your culture on them. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

I had no problem with Bush going into Iraq I wish he would have waited for the approval of the UN and the rest of the world. He would have gotten more support and we could have gotten out when we wanted to because it would have been up to the rest of the world to police Iraq.

But just like him you wont admit when you are wrong!

[yodajazz]

Sorry IH the last 8 years are not so great the economy is in shambles. we spend 10 billion a month in Iraq, come on now 100,000 troops on the border of Iran? To do what???? We have no Allies buy the show of force of all the other countries have in Iraq. "0" we alone are carrying the burden there!!! The President is a joke over seas. I wish I could remember which time magazine I read, because many of the ambassadors of the Arab countries think GW is a joke. In the story the said that he thinks that when he can call you by your first name that you are his friend and will listen to him.

He feels that any request that he makes you should be able to answer and commit to with out having to speak to others in your government to make a decision. they laugh at him behind his back.

He has kissed the Saudis ass since 9/11 the when oil prices went through the roof he put his tail between his legs flew to the Saudis to kiss their ass and ask them to raise the oil out put looking them dead in the eye Texas style and they said fuck you!!!! NO!!!!! What did he do?????? he flew back to Crawford!!!!

Yeah he took a stand and made some decisions problem was a great deal of them were wrong!!! and to compile it even further he wont admit it!!!!

We haven't been attacked again by terrorist because they accomplished what they wanted; to destroy the world trade center. For their ignorant ass the World Trade Center is just that; "WORLD TRADE CENTER" They calculated wrong, They felt that those 2 buildings represented America and all it's wealth. Dont you think on any given day they could blow up the NY subways? They could never hijack an another plane with Americans on board after 9/11 because they know they would never reach their target.

How can you say he ran a good Presidency when has had more people leave their post than any other president???? Do you think the middle east will ever surrender??? They have been fighting for 2000 years why should they stop now. They have us in a good position, using our best resource to fight a protracted war with in a country. George Bush forgot the lessons of Viet Nam you are trying to change a culture and impose your culture on them. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

I had no problem with Bush going into Iraq I wish he would have waited for the approval of the UN and the rest of the world. He would have gotten more support and we could have gotten out when we wanted to because it would have been up to the rest of the world to police Iraq.

But just like him you wont admit when you are wrong!

I agree with most of what you have said but for one point. I and my friends thought that attacking Iraq was a bad idea, even before it started.

1. Saddam Hussein was a counter balance to Iran’s influence in the region. They had fought an 8 year war, remember. Eliminating Saddam was eliminating Iran’s biggest threat.

2. Under Saddam, Iraq was still a Muslim country with a secular government, in opposition to religious controlled government wanted by Al Queda and radcial Islam.

3. Though he was brutal, he kept his country intact. Kurdish separatism is a threat to Turkey, who has a large Kurdish population next to Iraq. Turkey had to send troops to quell separatist fighters in its Kurdish region, maybe in 2000.

4. US military intervention would inevitably cause bad publicity with pictures of “dead babies”, etc, that could help to radicalize elements of Pakistan, and other Muslim countries. It could help enable leadership there, to take power with a less positive, or even hostile relationship with the US.

5. Before the invasion the US already had control of a major portion of Iraqi airspace, called the “no fly zone.” So even if they had WMD’s they had no delivery system, and the US has Nuclear weapons with an intercontinental missile delivery system, air craft carriers, nuclear submarines. It made absolutely no sense to me that Iraq would attack the US or Israel and face a nuclear response. Saddam had to be concerned with keeping power in his own country. I believe there had been assassination attempt on him and his sons.

6. My friend had told me about the “neo-cons” who had written papers advocating that the US should exert its military dominance and attack Iraq; before published before 9/11. He knew the names of the advisors, advocating such polices, like Paul Wolfowitz. He got all his information by going to the library and reading papers like the New York Times. It’s hard for me to believe that Congressional leadership did not know what was going on, including Democrats. I now know the name of a major group advocating that, which was called PNAC or Project for a New American Century.

Since my friends had discussed this, before the war, my conclusion was that it was always about controlling oil. I am more convinced today, that this is the case. I just read that four months after 9/11, Osama Bin Laden was not even mentioned in Bush’s State of the Union address. That was when he made his famous “Axis of evil” already starting to put a focus on Iraq, as well as Iran and North Korea., in January 2002. I never heard of Barrack Obama, but he apparently came to the same conclusion as my friends.

So while I agree with almost everything else in your post, you have my reasons for thinking that attacking. Iraq was a bad idea from the beginning. Welcome to the board, by the way.

One more thing, I agree that going with UN approval would have made a difference. But don't forget their case was made on the basis of WMD's. And Bush ran UN inspectors out the country to start the attack on Iraq.