Khalid Sheikh Mohammed wants to be "martyred"

[chefmike]

I certainly think that he deserves to die, but why give him what he wants? Let that piece of garbage rot in jail instead.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/06/06/AR2008060601161.html?hpid=topnews

[BrendaQG]

Martyrdom. Eh. While we at giving him what he wants why don't we try him under Islamic Law. Then no one over there could say we were being unfair or had a Kangaroo court or anything. I am sure he has admitted at least four separate times that he was the 911 mastermind. Their is not a single american, non-radical, Muslim Quadi (judge) who would not have him beheaded with an axe!

If anything he has set the missionary cause of Islam back 100 years not advanced it. No matter what he will be no martyr.

[chefmike]

While we at giving him what he wants why don't we try him under Islamic Law.

No offense, Brenda, but fuck Islamic law. He committed his vile attack on American soil. Let him rot in jail and jerk off to the Koran. He won't get his 72 virgins or whatever other ridiculous shit that his religion promises him.

[Tomfurbs]

set the missionary cause of Islam back 100 years not advanced it.


Ahh geez. Here in Europe we've only just succeeded ( after many many years of pain) in kicking all the idiot christians to the curb with their rabid 'missionary' converting. You mean we have to put up with another wave of crazies now?

I'm being sarcastic of course. It's already happened. In the small burough of London where I live we've got the Darul Amaan Islamic Center, Husseini Islamic Mission, Al-Muzzammil Mosque & Mission and three regular mosques.

Nothing wrong with this of course.

But I've never understood why religions have to convert people. Can't you practice your hilariously outdated beliefs behind closed doors and not try to snare the weakminded?


ANY missionary religion is setting back the HUMAN RACE by 100's of years just by existing.

[BrendaQG]

@Chef Mike
Mike the goal of punishing crime is to prevent that crime from being committed by someone else in the future. To this end people have always seen the need for trials to be fair and lawful. NOBODY IN THE WORLD THINKS OUR "Military Tribunals" will be anything but a farce. Kangaroo courts that are just going to prolong the inevitable. Courts which will make our country look no better than the Soviet Union.

Where as if we had other Muslims apply the Sharia to these men, and execute them. For 3000 counts of murder and for setting back the Muslim nation. This woulspd send a message that 1.) the US is not at war with islam and truly respects it. 2.) that this kid of terrorism is against specifically against Islamic law. 3.) The ruling against them would be binding on all Muslims anywhere.

Oh and instead of jerking off to the holy Qu'ran perhaps we can give him your mother to fuck. Infidel! *

@Tomfurbs
If you chose you can think of religions as being "meme"'s . A meme is a idea which like a virus spreads from individual to individual. It promises rewards (heaven) for the prorogation of the meme (a given religion any religion). That's the secular humanistic way of looking at it.

The spiritual way I look at it is this. As a Muslim when I read my Quran and pray as I am about to go out and do this Friday, feel a great sense of well being. Some passages have made me cry. Others fill me with joy and hope. I want to share that joy and hope with others if I can.

All I ever want to do with the TBGL community is demonstrate that yes it is really possible to be a Muslim if you are TBGL. Then perhaps do away with some of the really virulent Islamophobia that reigns supreme in this community.

*In speaking of Islamic law Mike come with me to Saudia Arabia and say that crap. I am sure it would NOT increase your affection for the Sharia! I would be shocked if anyone ever thought it ok to say this kind of crap about the New testment , tora, or any other holy book.

[yodajazz]

I agree with with Brenda. People can’t seem to get away from the notion that we are superior to everyone else. The follow up corollaries are that we must tell everyone how to live because they are incapable of making sound judgments, and it is useless to talk to Muslims, etc. I have said many times that the greatest weapon against Osama Bin Laden is the Koran, because that is his power source. But in order to use that as an effective weapon, people would have to admit that others have valid views.

Fighting a war, using the most effective and efficient weapons is the most intelligent way to fight. But the powers that be have positioned people to think fighting with intelligence is a sign of weakness. But this is precisely why we are losing our power in the world. The powers that be have misused power. So the US’s behaviors actually prove the points of the Jihadists. It is not about justice, it is about domination.

Brenda knows what she is talking about. But thanks chefmike for bringing the subject up for discussion.

[chefmike]

Like I said Brenda, fuck Islamic law. Likewise for all organized religions and the lies that they spread.

[chefmike]

ANY missionary religion is setting back the HUMAN RACE by 100's of years just by existing.

Well said.

[tubgirl]

let's compromise. kill him, but bury him in the belly of a pig...

[chefmike]

Oh and instead of jerking off to the holy Qu'ran perhaps we can give him your mother to fuck. Infidel!

Infidel? You bet your burka, baby!

[chefmike]

let's compromise. kill him, but bury him in the belly of a pig...

Exactly. Let's give him a proper Muslim burial.

[BeardedOne]

Personally, I would be happy to vote my tax dollars (And a possible side donation as well) to the long-term live storage of this mofo. It has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with someone so devoid of humanity that they would do such things in the =name= of religion.

[yodajazz]

Like I said Brenda, fuck Islamic law. Likewise for all organized religions and the lies that they spread.

Religions actually do a lot of good. I could make an extensive list. The thing is, all religions have competing principles, just like the rest of life does. Religious people, like everyone else, do what they want to do based on one principle, but ignore the opposite principle.

I’ll use one example: The whole concept of Islam is about peace; peace with God. The name is variation of the Arabic word for peace, salaam. But within Islam, there is a concept of war or holy war. Before Islam, they were over there fighting and killing one another. The Prophet was born into this lifestyle and had wage wars to survive and prosper, just like most men in the society at the time. So people are doing what they have been doing since before Islam, only now they use some of the principles of Islam to justify the same old behaviors. Within the religion of Islam there are many principles which speak for the just treatment of people. And it is no different with any other major religion. It’s not the religion that’s at fault; it is people doing what they want to do and then using religion to justify their actions.

So Chefmike you are doing the same thing, focusing on the 'lies', but ignoring the benefits of the universal truths they all provide. All religions try to teach people that there are consequences for thier actions beyond the immediate visible results.

[wjcdiver]

Execute him and bury him with a pound of bacon.

During the Teens amd Twenties there was an Islamic rebellion in the Philippines. The Marine Corps did the fighting. They had a simple solution for martyrs. Bury them with a pig. Forget the 70 virgins. There was still fighting but it cut the Martyr shit out.

Why should you respect the beliefs of a murderer?

[Felicia Katt]

if we are trying to provide a moral example to the World, and reach hearts and minds, there is no better lesson or example then to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, not as they have done or would do to you.

FK

[BrendaQG]

Thankyou Felicia. You get where I am comming from . I mean suppose this was all reversed. A group of Americans decide to go to Saudi Arabia and blow up some skyscrapers. Most of us would cry bloody hell about thier legal system if they had the mastermind on trial. We would want them to treat the person with the kind of law we have here. We would want them to be treated well while they were in custody and such. If not then we would cry foul.

Thst is why I say to behead them. Then do what you will with the bodies afterwards.

[Tomfurbs]

but ignoring the benefits of the universal truths they all provide. All religions try to teach people that there are consequences for thier actions beyond the immediate visible results.

Those 'universal truths' (which is a pretty shakey term, philosophically speaking) have been known and practiced by the human race ever since we had possesions and realised that compromise was better than outright hostility i.e. a very long time ago.

Don't attribute those truths to religion.

[tiramisu]

I don't know why you guys listen only from one ear.

George w Bush killed 1 million Iraki in 3 years, more than 30% of them are kids and females. He killed a lot in Afghanistan also, for us he is the butcher.

Why don't you judje him too with Ramsfield ( the biggest terrorist )

I am against the 9/11 acts and against all who kill innocents in the name of killing terrorists.


Chefmike stop insulting islam or we can insult your religion too if u have one.

Listen to both sides than conclude

peace

[Tomfurbs]

I think you will find that secular humanity gets insulted and jeered at daily from the pulpits and in the mosques throughout the world.

The difference is, secular humanists don't get all pissy and defensive.

This is because you cannot attack a position that advocates thinking for yourself, and maintain any kind of credibility.

[BrendaQG]

@Tom

Secular humanist do not just "think for themselves" odds are most of them don't really think about the real life, in this world consequences for their actions.

No one thinks for a religious person we think and choose to obey a moral code which has been tested by thousands of years. Yet it places limits on everything from diet to sexuality. But those rules are there to benefit society.

Islam is almost unique among the Abrahamic traditions in the way it views gender as opposed to sex and has room for transsexual people in it.

I personally have known plenty of secular humanist who just never get the spiritual side of this way of being.

That spiritual side is what tells me I want KSM's head on a platter and I want him to be burried in an unmarked grave at some random location.

[El Nino]

House Keeping

[El Nino]

House Keeping

[Tomfurbs]

Brenda:

In my opinion, not 'having the answers' to the mysteries of the universe and life is a lot more spiritual than the fantasies preached by the three monotheistic religions.

And I think you will find that a lot of people hide away from 'real life' in religion too. It is six of one, half a dozen of the other.


Frankly, how Islam views transsexualism is immaterial to this discussion, and cancelled out by its stance on homosexuality.

[Thatiger23]

ok i dont care what religion the guy is but all i can say is let his ass rot in jail for how ever he has left in this world and make sure he is in General population...thats just my opinion.....but meh we could always do what they do over there JUST HANG THE ASSHOLE.... :2cent

[chefmike]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2007/150307ultimatepatsy.htm

http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=10688

http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/ksm_confessed_attacking_bank_founded_after_his_arr est.htm

:spam

[Thatiger23]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2007/150307ultimatepatsy.htm

http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=10688

http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/ksm_confessed_attacking_bank_founded_after_his_arr est.htm

:spam

now chef mike how are we supposed to see that icon GO BIG OR GO HOME man
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee106/tonyb2206/38197-spam.jpg

now this is a better way to say it^^^^^

[chefmike]

Thank you.

[Oli]

Let him rot in jail. The death he desires is too good for him.

[El Nino]

House Keeping

[chefmike]

“In fact, one thing that I have noticed . . . is that all of these conspiracy theories depend on the perpetrators being endlessly clever. I think you'll find the facts also work if you assume the believer is endlessly stupid.”

Thanks for the quote, Oli.

[BrendaQG]

What the hell ever. Feel free to be islamophobic this is the USA where one can even be a NAZI if they want. I reserve the right to spit in the face of anyone who would knowingly seek to offend my religion. Some of the best most kind people I have known and do know are Muslims.

Mike what race or religion are you so that I may denigrate those things you belive "just for fun". :evil:

[chefmike]

I am a white male who was born in the SOUTH! Which means that I'm someone who's heritage you can insult and still remain politically correct, Brenda! So have at it until your burka falls off, baby! This infidel ain't scared of you or your brethren. The people who made this great nation weren't wearing towels on their heads! So deal with it! Go ahead and order your fatwa, ya fageleh!

[chefmike]

And while we're on the subject, Brenda, I think religion will always remain a necessary evil for people like yourself who need such superstitions. Nevertheless, it should be subject to a tax code like any other business. Saving souls has been proven to be very profitable, after all...

But as for Islam, Brenda, I find it even more distasteful than most other religions. No offense, but to put it bluntly I think that it's a gutter religion. It's even more disturbing than the Pentecostal fanatics and their cyanide guzzling snake handlers.

[Oli]

Secular humanist do not just "think for themselves" odds are most of them don't really think about the real life, in this world consequences for their actions.

Wouldn't this describe the actions of the 9/11 hijackers and suicide bombers in the Middle East? Their focus on the rewards in an Afterlife blinds them to the real world consequences of their actions. Or they choose to break one of the foundations of all religions (not to kill) for rewards from a higher power? (What type of higher power rewards people for killing innocents anyway?)



No one thinks for a religious person we think and choose to obey a moral code which has been tested by thousands of years. Yet it places limits on everything from diet to sexuality. But those rules are there to benefit society.

This is an incongruous statement. The rules of any religion are put in place to remove freedom of thought.



That spiritual side is what tells me I want KSM's head on a platter

Sorry, the 6th Commandment says no. So does the first precept of Buddhism. And my Hindu friend Manoj tells me it's forbidden.

Justice isn't served by another killing.

As I said earlier, let him have a fair trial, and if convicted, let him rot for the remainder of his life in a 12x8 box with bars on it.

[Oli]

I reserve the right to spit in the face of anyone who would knowingly seek to offend my religion.

And the police reserve the right to arrest you for assault.

[BrendaQG]

OK so here is how Mike is trying to cast this.

I am the horrible anti American Muslim who wants to

1.) Try KSM by the ruels of the very religion he says he follows.

2.)Knowing full well all his confessions alone would get him convicted of murder under Islamic Law.

3.) Try him for Apostasy (leaving the fold of Islam by committing those attacks) Thus finding that he was no longer a true Muslim.

4.) Execute him by chopping off his head with an axe.

I really don't know anyone who would mind if this guys head were chopped off. This would also send a powerful message to the Islamic world. The people we are trying to deter by punishing KSM.

What Mike seems to want is that we

A.) Try him as we are in these phony Baloney "Millitary Tribunals" Which NOBODY ANYWHERE (aside from the most radical neo cons) thinks are anything but Kangaroo Courts. Then kill him by nice gentle lethal injection.

B.) Try him in our civil courts. This would have made the most sense of all. As long as he was treated with all the rights we afford to citizens of the USA. I don't know if Bush would have been reelected if he had done that.

Oh and Oli et al.

Considering the grief I get for it would it really be a sign of "free thought" were I to conform to the pervailing opinion of this board and renounce Islam? I don't see how. To a great extent I would just be conforming to the norm for TBLG people by hating on this religion while faking Christianity like most people in the USA.

[Tomfurbs]

I think you will find that the christians who come on this board and spout their crap get the same treatment.

[Oli]

Oh and Oli et al.

Considering the grief I get for it would it really be a sign of "free thought" were I to conform to the pervailing opinion of this board and renounce Islam? I don't see how. To a great extent I would just be conforming to the norm for TBLG people by hating on this religion while faking Christianity like most people in the USA.

Brenda, nowhere in my posts have I said you should renounce Islam. That you find comfort, purpose and a sense of understanding your place in the world is all any religion should aspire to. I'm happy you are proud of your religion. I'm saddened that you feel the need to denigrate other religions in the process.

I do have a problem with putting aside 240+ years of our secular judicial tradition and embracing Sharia Law for one man (which you propose).

[trish]

Hi Brenda. You wrote to Tom that


Secular humanist do not just "think for themselves" odds are most of them don't really think about the real life, in this world consequences for their actions.

No one thinks for a religious person we think and choose to obey a moral code which has been tested by thousands of years. Yet it places limits on everything from diet to sexuality. But those rules are there to benefit society.

Islam is almost unique among the Abrahamic traditions in the way it views gender as opposed to sex and has room for transsexual people in it.

I personally have known plenty of secular humanist who just never get the spiritual side of this way of being.




Let me address this last point of yours, because I feel I’m a secular humanist who doesn’t really get the spiritual side of this way of being. I should first say that I too find peace and solace, exhilaration etc in quiet contemplation of poetry, music, mathematics, architecture or just being in the natural world around me. In these moments I feel part of that world and unified with it. But I never feel that I can in any way communicate with that world. Oh I may speak sometimes, as if to thank the trees and the water for providing me life, shelter and comfort, but I know that such behavior is the acting out of metaphor; a kind of improvised singing or poetry. If that is what one means by prayer or by spirituality, then I suppose I get it. But if it’s something else; if for example, prayer is taken literally (as it is in most established religions), then I see such behavior as self-deception and ultimately dangerous.

Religious codes have indeed been around for thousands of years. And they have been tested. But I would say the tests have shown them in dire need of revision. We no longer think it’s moral, for example, to stone women for sexual transgressions. Nor do we think it’s a Sin to eat pork. Yet no religious texts can be amended. No religion provides an adequate procedure, short of divine revelation, for correcting proclamations of moral law. Religions splinter and schism rather than grow or unfold. I believe religious people DO think. Because only the fanatics among them actually follow all the laws set out by their religious text. The intelligent, pick and choose. And that’s fine. But I think 1) it’s easier to dispense with the ritual and the text and the organization altogether; and 2) keeping the ritual, the text and the organization provides the shelter of authority to the fanatics.