Great Depression coming

[bat1]

Wall Street fears for next Great Depression

By Margareta Pagano, Business Editor
Sunday, 16 March 2008


Wall Street is bracing itself for another week of roller-coaster trading after more than $300bn (£150m) was wiped off the US equity markets on Friday following the emergency funding package put together by the Federal Reserve and JPMorgan Chase to rescue Bear Stearns.

One UK economist warned that the world is now close to a 1930s-like Great Depression, while New York traders said they had never experienced such fear. The Fed's emergency funding procedure was first used in the Depression and has rarely been used since.

A Goldman Sachs trader in New York said: "Everyone is in a total state of shock, aghast at what is happening. No one wants to talk, let alone deal; we're just standing by waiting. Everyone is nervous about what is going to emerge when trading starts tomorrow."

In the UK, Michael Taylor, a senior market strategist at Lombard, the economics consultancy, said on Friday night: "We have all been talking about a 1970s-style crisis but as each day goes by this looks more like the 1930s. No one has any clue as to where this is going to end; it's a self-feeding disaster." Mr Taylor, who had been relatively optimistic, has turned bearish: "It really does look as though the UK is now heading for a recession. The credit-crunch means that even if the Bank of England cuts rates again, the banks are in such a bad way they are unlikely to pass cuts on."

Mr Taylor added that he expects a sharp downturn in the real UK economy as the public and companies stop borrowing. "We have never seen anything like this before. This is new territory for us. Liquidity is being pumped into the system but the banks are not taking any notice. This is all about confidence. The more the central banks do, the more the banks seem to ignore what's going on."

Mr Taylor added that the problems unravelling at Bear Stearns are just the beginning: "There will be more banks and hedge funds heading for collapse."

One of the problems facing the markets is that, despite the Fed's move last week to feed them another $200bn, the banks are still not lending to each other.

"This crisis is one of faith. We are going to see even more problems in the hedge funds as they face margin calls," said Mark O'Sullivan, director of dealing at Currencies Direct in London. "What we are waiting for now is for the Fed to cut interest rates again this week. But that's already been discounted by the market and is unlikely to help restore confidence."

Mr O'Sullivan added that the dollar's free-fall is set to continue and may need cuts in European interest rates to trim the euro's recent strength against the dollar. "But the ECB doesn't like cutting rates," he said.

On Europe, Mr Taylor said that while the German economy remains strong, others such as Italy's and Spain's are weakening. "You could see a scenario where the eurozone breaks up if economies continue to be so worried about inflation."

European financial markets were relatively unscathed by Wall Street's crisis but traders expect there to be a backlash when stock markets open tomorrow.

The Fed's plan will give 28 days of secured funding to Bear Stearns, which saw its value slashed over the week by more than a half to $3.7bn. JP Morgan will provide the funding, but the Fed will bear the risk if the loan is not repaid. Fed chairman, Ben Bernanke, who pumped $200bn of loans to cash-strapped institutions last week, said more would be available to help others in distress.

[thx1138]

and it's not going to get any better until/unless bush and cheney are history. The people who lose their jobs and homes are the one who are going to suffer the most. I don't give a damn if a Wall st. fat cat's income goes down from $50 million a year to $10 million a year.

[south ov da border]

:soapbox

OK-DON'T THINK THAT I'M GETTING CONSPIRACY THEORY ON EVERYONE.

The problems we have financially as a nation goes way deeper than who's president or what a government can do for us.

The whole system of finance as it is was set up to fail.

Right now in America we are in a situation similar to Germany before the Hitler regime.
Between 1914-1918 during WWI, German deficit reached 1.5 billion, around 15% of their total budget. By 1921 their interest rate was about 5% and inflation doubled. Instead of admitting to a recession, especially because war was draining all resources, they manage to keep printing money. The foreigners were starting to get blamed for their mark’s woes. The government did not allow foreign currency to be purchased to protect assets. Foreign companies had currency gains because of the falling mark. In 1922 their Fed kept the interest rate at 5%. By November it swelled to 7%. Now take into consideration their markets from 1914 until then rose 900%. That was BEFORE HYPERINFLATION. Foreign companies were getting richer, the haves got fatter, the nots NOT.

By January’23 interest rates rose to 19%. By April 30%. By September it swelled to 90%. Their market rose SO high that the foreign companies were raking it in like harvesters. November 23rd of that year, marks were deemed worthless.

Marks got replaced by the Rentenmark, a rate of 1 billion marks to 1 Rentenmark. Not too many years after that HITLER showed up.

I’d point out how all of this is relevant to the situation in the US, but I think that there are OBVIOUS similarities to what we have going on now.

Oh and 1 more thing, the same people who were in charge of instituting our Fed Reserve system were German speculators and businessmen like Paul Warburg, who sold the idea to Nelson Aldrich, father of the illegal and never legally passed INCOME TAX. The idea for the FED was for private bankers backing the currency for a whole country, with nobody knowing who these “bankers” were. Around 1920 quotes like this appeared in the NY TIMES, “The Federal Reserve is a fount of credit, not of capital." SO by that language in itself the system is designed off credit and speculation, not anything of actual worth or value. TO have worth, dollars need to be backed by something tangible. NOT in the Fed Reserve where they are not backed by anything but interest. Warburg helped America’s war profiteering in dealing with Germany during WW2, after helping sell Germany into the failing mark, while also earning a lot of foreign cash for himself and other companies at the expense of his German people. Prescott Bush, Dubya's grandfather was part of the profiteering team also. This system was the same for Germany as it is for the US now. -I'm not going to get into who the Bush's really are now, because then I'd have to go into project paperclip, nikoli tesla and a whole bunch of other things that might sound more science fiction than anything.

SO IT WILL BE LIKE IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN-THE HAVE’S vs HAVENOTS. THE REAL WORTH IS BEING KEPT IN FAMILY SO TO SPEAK.

OK I’m done, going back to what I’m really here on this board for, admiring the beautiful ladies…

[envivision]

and it's not going to get any better until/unless bush and cheney are history.

Sure, then vote Obama in 2008.

He'll fix the economy..... by MAKING A SPEECH!

Seriously now, to fix the economy, you need to:
1) LOWER the taxes
2) Compete internationally (China-Inda-Brazil have been kicking our butts the last 5 years). To achieve that we must flex our muscles in the middle east, asia, south america and everywhere else.

Singing Kumbaya ain't gonna do crap.

[Aunt Kay]

1. You don't have enough fingers to point to who is at fault, including all the people who live beyond their means.

2. Neither political party will cure this mess. And it started decades ago, it's just that the boil is getting ready to burst.

3. If you look at economic history, there is a depression every 70 yo 80 years. And politicians tend to make the depressions worse by trying to help (like taxing us to death).

4. The problems are worldwide, not just our system.

5. Face it, things are going to get a lot worse no matter who is elected.

[trish]

and it's not going to get any better until/unless bush and cheney are history.

Sure, then vote Obama in 2008.

He'll fix the economy..... by MAKING A SPEECH!

Seriously now, to fix the economy, you need to:
1) LOWER the taxes
2) Compete internationally (China-Inda-Brazil have been kicking our butts the last 5 years). To achieve that we must flex our muscles in the middle east, asia, south america and everywhere else.

Singing Kumbaya ain't gonna do crap.


1) Lower which taxes? All of them? Schools are in deficit spending. Bridges, dams and roads are in need of maintenance. We've run up three trillion dollars worth of debt thanks to our military incursion in the Middle East. Our asses are going to be owned if we don't start collecting some revenue from the rich son-o-bitches who've gotten off easy for the last 7 years making record profits and not paying anything back to the country which shelters them. Eliminate taxes for the poor. Lower taxes on the middle class. But let's finally collect some revenue from the wealthy and from corporations like Exxon which seems to be in no particular difficulty. How about we initiate a WAR TAX. I'd like to see congress legislate that all wars should be taxed on a pay as you go basis. That includes the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, the war on terror and the war on drugs.

2) Yes, our businesses should compete. But what does that entail? Who should flex their muscles, business, government or the military? Just what do you mean by flexing our muscles and how would it help the economic situation. Do you mean our businesses should just compete better than they have? (If so I agree) Do you mean we should send in our military and force other countries to trade with us on our terms or else? (We've seen that solution can be damn expensive) Or do you mean we should endeavor to negotiate tougher trade treaties? (Negotiation is what singing Kumbaya is all about).

(edited to include a left out preposition) :)

[Bunzee]

anyone know a good way to invest in Euros for a US resident?

[bat1]

Just do what you can control, save money, anyway you can!
if your BF loves to spend money make him pay the bills or
kick his ass out!

We have no control in what is going on in the world
just do what ever it takes to keep your job, and your savings
things look to get much worse here...so brace yourself
and be strong, it's survival that counts.

[Ecstatic]

I don't know about the Great Depression, but this recession (call it what you will) is the worst since WWII. It isn't Bush's fault, exactly, as many of the problems as pointed out go back years and even decades, but his administration has most certainly exacerbated the situation.

[OnefortheAges]

Interesting that there are so many apologists for George W. Bush, who committed the U.S. to its worst foreign policy disaster in its history, and which eventually led to it being a bankrupt nation.

Oh well.

[Aunt Kay]

I didn't apologize for anyone and i didn't vote for bush. There just is a lot of blame to go around and I doubt no one will fix this mess. Would you let all the greedy CEO's off the hook or blame one guy? Congress promised change. Where is it?

[trish]

Seven years ago, Clinton left office leaving a projected TEN YEAR BUDGET SURPLUS behind. Bush immediately gave it away to the rich, gave Enron a free hand to rob & loot, and got us mired in the middle east. Congress is split along party lines and consequently can't pass any veto proof legislation. If I can't blame one man for this fiasco, then I can pretty much blame one party...the party the backed Bush come hell or high water in every dim-witted, half-baked, freedom-hating, anti-democratic idea he ever proposed (and under this administration we have experienced both hell and high water).

[bat1]

clinton was a great man..we where in much better shape
back then ...can only hope for the future..

[Cuchulain]

trish said





1) Lower which taxes? All of them? Schools are in deficit spending. Bridges, dams and roads are in need of maintenance. We've run up three trillion dollars worth of debt thanks to our military incursion in the Middle East. Our asses are going to be owned if we don't start collecting some revenue from the rich son-o-bitches who've gotten off easy for the last 7 years making record profits and not paying anything back to the country which shelters them. Eliminate taxes for the poor. Lower taxes on the middle class. But let's finally collect some revenue from the wealthy and from corporations like Exxon which seems to be in no particular difficulty. How about we initiate a WAR TAX. I'd like to see congress legislate that all wars should be taxed on a pay as you go basis. That includes the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan, the war on terror and the war on drugs.

2) Yes, our businesses should compete. But what does that entail? Who should flex their muscles, business, government or the military? Just what do you mean by flexing our muscles and how would it help the economic situation. Do you mean our businesses should just compete better than they have? (If so I agree) Do you mean we should send in our military and force other countries to trade with us on our terms or else? (We've seen that solution can be damn expensive) Or do you mean we should endeavor to negotiate tougher trade treaties? (Negotiation is what singing Kumbaya is all about).

:claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps

[tstv_lover]

4. The problems are worldwide, not just our system.


Not correct. Most international economies are doing just fine. Yes, most countries who trade with the US are now reducing their growth projections, but this is entirely due to the downturn in US economy. Banks internationally have been affected by the sub-prime lending crisis in the US because this risk was shared within the banking community. Don't expect that will happen again!
The BRIC countries (Brasil, Russia, India and China) are still projecting healthy growth, particularly in China and India.

[south ov da border]

clinton gave more no bid contracts than bush did, great man, right. More like just a slick talker, kind of like this Obama guy. Doesn't look good no matter who's the prez.

They're dropping the rate, thereby dropping the worth. By september, NO WORTH, already no value. Hide your loot under your bed, or invest in other currency somehow. Make friends with somebody somewhere else. Soon the whole economic system as it is right now will be crap though, everywhere...

[Quinn]

anyone know a good way to invest in Euros for a US resident?

There are a number of ways to do this, but if you're not very experienced in the financial markets, you are probably better off investing in euro denominated bonds or CDs. You might want to consider the following bank:

https://www.everbank.com/

-Quinn

[Quinn]

4. The problems are worldwide, not just our system.


Not correct. Most international economies are doing just fine. Yes, most countries who trade with the US are now reducing their growth projections, but this is entirely due to the downturn in US economy. Banks internationally have been affected by the sub-prime lending crisis in the US because this risk was shared within the banking community. Don't expect that will happen again!
The BRIC countries (Brasil, Russia, India and China) are still projecting healthy growth, particularly in China and India.

Well said, tstv_lover. The fact is that numerous former recipients of IMF aid – Russia, South Korea, Brazil, Argentina, Turkey, etc. – are now running annual budget surpluses. Many states in the international system (NIE economies, GCC economies) are running annual budget surpluses.

The fact is that the US was the premier destination for international capital in the post-war era. Now, thanks to a combination of rapid changes in the international system and staggeringly irresponsible economic policies enacted domestically, that period is over. For those Americans who recognize this reality and adapt to it, there’s a lot of money to be made. For most of the rest, there will be a noticeable decline in living standards.

-Quinn

[Wombat]

Our economy is fine here in Australia, our dollar keeps going up against the US dollar. So to say it is a world wide problem is incorrect.

The US has only really been an international power since 1945, prior to that it was basically isolationist (simply put). Against previous powers you haven't been in the limelight long, and perhaps not for much longer. Should have kept gold as the international currency.

Guess we will be using the yuan as an international base currency soon. :P

[south ov da border]

once again my
:soapbox

ok, for those who don't know, the same people that were in charge of creating the nazi power germany are the same people that have infiltrated the government of this country around 1930's and 40's. This money issue is a result of the CENTRAL BANKING SYSTEM, or the fed reserve as they call it, which ignores deficits and affixes value towards EVERYTHING, rather than deal in actual worth of tangibles. The reserve is not based in the United States, but Puerto Rico. The laws and rules are a little different there, just as in D.C. The same reasons apply to where credit card bills are sent rather than home offices. The reason those rates in the fine print are legal is because of where the payments are sent having laws that allow rates to climb INFINATELY if so determined. Inflamitory tactics so to speak.

A primary investor is a group of private bankers, who oddly enough nobody can identify. HMM.

Defecits ignored while infinite resources are being pumped into the millitary industrial. Elimintation of hte middle class. Funny rates and values, because nothing is based on any real worth. Just a mess waiting to happen agin, as it did in Germany. People will talk about how the coutry recovered and became a power, but the tactics used to recover and become that power produced some of the gruesome acts such as the Haulocast, the taking over of europe, and the continuation of horrible biological and chemical expirimentation.

It's a Big misconception is that the fallof the dollar will only affect America and not the rest of the world greatly. If the dollar fails, the artificial rise in value of foreign currecnies compared to it would ultimately damage their ecomies too, would it not?

One of the reasons wars on actual places are not declared is because the term war when used as a national defense against another actual country requires a payment for the usage of the term. They will use the term incident, operation, anything but war. The MEDIA will use the term, but not the government. We have been in a constant state of war in this country since the CIA started overthrowing countries and instituting pupped money laundering governments, starting with Iran and the insertion of the Shah.

This issue is a world wide one. Australia will probably be stable, and a starting point of what is supposed to happen next in world policy/governance, whatever that may be.

Once again I apologize for the length of my reply. I've been reading entirely too much, while living with my grandfather who has been researching and living through all of these events for many years.

Brace yourselves for a bumpy ride. They can only hide the truth of the matter. This system was developed for this particlar situation to occur...

[trish]

clinton...More like just a slick talker

Nothing slicker than a TEN YEAR BUDGETARY SURPLUS.

Nothing more idiotic than flushing it down the toilet.

[OneCoolGuy]

It's not coming but what is going to happen is all part of a one world government plan. This is the step to introduce the amero. Hope you people have your hearts in the right place cause things are going to get bad.

[Maximus25]

Wow I never thought I'd see the day when we would start talking about economics on HA but our economy is shitting the bed and everyone is worried. Now I do not think what we have is a 1930s style depression on our hands. From Economic journals I've read and talking to my current econ profs I say our situation is more similar to either stagflation of the 1970s or Japan's real estate and credit bubble bust in th early 1990s. Both of these situations were really bad. In the case of Stagflation, we had high inflation and negative economic growth.
As of right now, the Fed has cut every interst rate at its disposal (i am being a little facisious) to boost the economy and calm markets but at the same time inflation keeps rising. Inflation on consumer goods is up by 4% since last year and our CPI is at its lowest in over 6 years. However, I think our situation resembles Japan in the early 1990s. When their bubble their economy went into a tailspin and they were in recession for the next 14 years-yeah absurd! There is a great Economist article on this btw from 2 or 3 weeks ago.
The problem with the Great Depression analogy is there is not as much trade protectionism as there was during the 1930s. One of the reasons why the Depression was so severe was due to the Smoot-Hawriff Tarrif act and there is nothing like that in Congress. We are still trading in the global economy and freely I may add. The real question about the solvency of our economy and the financial system is whether we should embrace a Keyensian outlook and embrace regulation and spending on public works such as infrastructure. These are some tough times ahead.

[TSCURIOUS]

I guess Bush told the Mortgage industry to sell those BS mortgages? I guess Bush is setting gas and oil prices now. Oh - Bush also screwed Bears Stearns too. FUCKING MORONS! You MORONS are saying to stop spending but you're all out there with your grubby hands out looking for a handout and bailout. I save, live within my means and I can't wait until the market corrects itself so I can invest low and make a few coins. Stop blaming politicans and start looking at yourselves! When I was out of work, i didn't go on unemployment - I saved my money and got another job to make ends meet.
Wait until Obama gets in office - 28% Capital Gains!! 52% Income Tax You'll all be fucked (taxed) so much it'll hurt so bad you won't need a dick in you! Then what are you going to say? Universal Health Care? Why do the fucking Canadians come to this country to get better doctors?? It does not work! Heart attack in Canada? Good Luck! Heart Transplant? You're dead!
Just my .02 worth.
Enjoy your day!

[south ov da border]

republicans were democrats and democrats were republicans 150 years ago. That being said, you REALLY think that either party is going to fix anything?

The clintons did so many bad things for policy that they had to keep us entertained with his whole monica lewinsky thing. The aproval ratings for him were high, because he kept us distracted. Under him happened, World Trade Center episode 1, Oklahoma City, The invention of department of homeland securtiy before it became popular, and many other schemes and things that paved the way for Bush to reep the benefits laid before him. These are all corporate people. The issue won't just end because voters come out. These people have to sell out to a certain extent just to make it this far in the game. There's not going to be a saviour as it stands now.

WE NEED A NEW WAY OF DOING THINGS. Not a new System- which is latin for sewer, odd the words that have system attached to them resemble systems in function, right?

THey will just keep printing more $$$ which have no REAL VALUE, only a determined worth based on factors which aren't tangible.

EVERYONE BETTER START LOVING EACHOTHER AND COME TOGETHER. We need a change in our collective conscious.

[TSCURIOUS]

"The clintons did so many bad things for policy that they had to keep us entertained with his whole monica lewinsky thing. The aproval ratings for him were high, because he kept us distracted. Under him happened, World Trade Center episode 1, Oklahoma City, The invention of department of homeland securtiy before it became popular, "

The Clinton were useless. He single handily destructed all the defense systems Reagan put in place - then yes - World Trade Center 1, US Cole, Oklahoma City and others.

And back to my higher taxes rant - read this!

Based on using the actual tax tables (see link below), here are some
examples on what the taxes were/are on various amounts of income for both
singles and married couples. so let's see if the Bush tax cuts only helped
the rich. http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush 2008

Single making 30K - tax $8,400 Single making 30K-tax $4,500

Single making 50K - tax $14,000 Single making 50K-tax $12,500

Single making 75K - tax $23,250 Single making 75K-tax $18,750

Married making 60K - tax $16,800 Married making 60K-tax $9,000

Married making 75K - tax $21,000 Married making 75K-tax $18,750

Married making 125K - tax $38,750 Married making 125K-tax$31,250

If you want to know just how effective the mainstream media is, it is
amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think Bush is
screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever. If any
democrat is elected, ALL of them say they will repeal the Bush tax cuts and
a good portion of the people that fall into the categories above can't wait
for it to happen. This is like the movie The Sting with Paul Newman; you
scam somebody out of some money and they don't even know what happened.

[dgtlmstry]

republicans were democrats and democrats were republicans 150 years ago. That being said, you REALLY think that either party is going to fix anything?

The clintons did so many bad things for policy that they had to keep us entertained with his whole monica lewinsky thing. The aproval ratings for him were high, because he kept us distracted. Under him happened, World Trade Center episode 1, Oklahoma City, The invention of department of homeland securtiy before it became popular, and many other schemes and things that paved the way for Bush to reep the benefits laid before him. These are all corporate people. The issue won't just end because voters come out. These people have to sell out to a certain extent just to make it this far in the game. There's not going to be a saviour as it stands now.

WE NEED A NEW WAY OF DOING THINGS. Not a new System- which is latin for sewer, odd the words that have system attached to them resemble systems in function, right?

THey will just keep printing more $$$ which have no REAL VALUE, only a determined worth based on factors which aren't tangible.

EVERYONE BETTER START LOVING EACHOTHER AND COME TOGETHER. We need a change in our collective conscious.

I have agreed with all of your last 3 posts. I think you have hit it right on the head. Political parties and wars are not going to change or stop the inevitable. And it is only inevitable because we have chosen it to be.

[Quinn]

Wow I never thought I'd see the day when we would start talking about economics on HA but our economy is shitting the bed and everyone is worried. Now I do not think what we have is a 1930s style depression on our hands. From Economic journals I've read and talking to my current econ profs I say our situation is more similar to either stagflation of the 1970s or Japan's real estate and credit bubble bust in th early 1990s. Both of these situations were really bad. In the case of Stagflation, we had high inflation and negative economic growth.
As of right now, the Fed has cut every interst rate at its disposal (i am being a little facisious) to boost the economy and calm markets but at the same time inflation keeps rising. Inflation on consumer goods is up by 4% since last year and our CPI is at its lowest in over 6 years. However, I think our situation resembles Japan in the early 1990s. When their bubble their economy went into a tailspin and they were in recession for the next 14 years-yeah absurd! There is a great Economist article on this btw from 2 or 3 weeks ago.
The problem with the Great Depression analogy is there is not as much trade protectionism as there was during the 1930s. One of the reasons why the Depression was so severe was due to the Smoot-Hawriff Tarrif act and there is nothing like that in Congress. We are still trading in the global economy and freely I may add. The real question about the solvency of our economy and the financial system is whether we should embrace a Keyensian outlook and embrace regulation and spending on public works such as infrastructure. These are some tough times ahead.

Maximus, great analysis. The Great Depression analogy is wrong for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that we aren't currently on the Gold Standard (Friedman had it right).

-Quinn

[south ov da border]

maximus is correct, just some more media fearmongoring, but not really based on an honest comparison.

Simpy put, when you play monopoly it doesn't matter how much cash you have when the game is over right? The only worth it has is during the game. Same can be said for the dollar. Funny how many people play that game and don't understand how true it is.

If people knew what REALLY lie ahead in this way of governance, they would be a lot more worried. I really feel that only supernatural intervention is the only savior. Be it ascention or rapture, mass landing, whatever you do or don't believe in.

I feel like we have too many choices and comforts to do what is best for the people as a whole. Something needs to come in and show us how much of a bigger picture there is.

The people I do speak with about these things say I remind them of Huey from the boondocks. I used to have a big afro too, so I guess it fits...

[trish]

I see...borrowing six trillion dollars from the Chinese to watch it spiral down a toilet of a war in the Middle East has absolutely nothing to do with the devaluation of the dollar. Putting anti-regulationists in charge of regulating banks has absolutely nothing to do with the collapse of the subprime. A continued policy of spend spend spend but never tax has nothing to do with our current circumstances. It's all Bill Clinton's fault. Yeah.

[RogerUK]

Hey Mates, you fools elected GW twice.

[BeardedOne]

Hey Mates, you fools elected GW twice.

Only if they live in Florida.

[johnb]

Hey Mates, you fools elected GW twice.

Only if they live in Florida.good one, O Great Bearded One

[zerrrr]

anyone know a good way to invest in Euros for a US resident?

There are currency ETF's available but now might not be the best time.

[chefmike]

If people knew what REALLY lie ahead in this way of governance, they would be a lot more worried. I really feel that only supernatural intervention is the only savior. Be it ascention or rapture, mass landing, whatever you do or don't believe in.

I want to believe... :roll:

[El Nino]

Its not who votes that counts; but those who count the votes... DIEBOLD

[south ov da border]

It's every president since the IRS started that is the issue. We have an illegal tax on top of what everyone makes. If you are religious and tithe/offering, then that's even more. Dollar says in God we trust. Will that lead to a war of religious idealism as in Christian vs Muslim? We shall see. It's all a fabrication much like the east coast west coast rap rivalry.

Remember Richard Nixon now as a joke in politics? Remember Richard Nixon then as winning with the biggest electorial landslide ever? What do WE honestly know about any of these guys and what they do? Kennedy's father was a bootlegger, but it's all good because his sons were the hope of a nation. Who will know exactly why they were wiped out. Used to live on off wilshire and normandie, used to see RFK's assasination site everyday and wonder why. Kennedy wanted to end the vietnam conflict (NOT A WAR) I was told so he got blasted and they doubled the efforts by his funeral. Set him up nasty, didn't have a chance. Chased Jackie O back in the car, she tried to get out when the driver shot. Why do you think he slowed down? But see they say this is all conspiracy.

Funny thing about the english language. You can totally neutralize one word by putting another by it. Kennedy's murder, a conspiracy theory, even if based on more fact than the "fact" that officially gets released. RIGHT.

Every president has messed up the puzzle more. It's just what you have to do in order to be in that position. I don't think the rockefellers and rothchilds won't let you REALLY be for the people and mess up their programming. Mind programmind does exist. They focus on it so they can maintain their control. Ever wonder why we have so many choices to be different, so many things we can get into? Takes your mind from the fact that we're 99.99 and some other numbers I don't know similar. Wouldn't seem like it right? First thing a person usually does when they see somebody else is... NOTICE THE DIFFERENCES. Why is that? My guess would be programming. It's been done for ages. Religion is a big factor. It's more of a mindwash programming, constant reinforcement by symbolism.

Why in the heck should a black man with an islamic name be the president of the United States? Why should a woman who was married to a known philanderer be known to do anything but keep her position by any means? Why should another septuagenarian be allowed into into office. With all the differences that are focused on in this society, what do any of those people really have in common with those who ultimately are going to carry this society? Being black? Being a woman? Wanting change? Being straight shot? IT'S ALL A JOKE.

what would happen if nobody did anything for 1 day? Don't drive, use electricity, use the phone, watch tv. NOTHING, just go outside, talk meet people. I Think the illusion would definately pause for the time being. THe constant motion is what keeps these illusionary tactics going.

Anyway, back to what I'm really on this board for.

O and here's my afro from when I was younger...

[Wombat]

what would happen if nobody did anything for 1 day? Don't drive, use electricity, use the phone, watch tv. NOTHING, just go outside, talk meet people. I Think the illusion would definately pause for the time being. THe constant motion is what keeps these illusionary tactics going.


It would cost the multi-nationals billions, put fear in them and perhaps even make them rethink their ways, especially if everyone said, 'That was a pleasent day, lets all do it again next week'.

It will never happen because we under value our individual impact in the big scheme of things, or just the opposite, over value our contribution to the point that we work ourselves into the ground (literally and figuratively).

[Cuchulain]

Robert Kuttner wrote in 'The American Prospect":
Watching the turmoil in the financial markets, a worried friend recently asked me to define the difference between a recession and a depression. Probably the classic explanation of a depression is the economist Irving Fisher's celebrated 1933 article, "The Debt-Deflation Theory of Great Depressions," which was updated, interestingly enough, in 1983 by a young Princeton economist named Ben Bernanke.

An ordinary recession is a cycle of economic contraction that either cures itself when prices drop and buying resumes, or is cured by government acting to stimulate the economy through lower interest rates or increased public deficit-spending, or both. But in a great depression, as Fisher explained, the value of assets sinks below the value of the debt on those assets. A debt is fixed unless the debtor can find relief, while the value of assets varies according to the market's confidence. If you paid $400,000 for a house with a $350,000 mortgage, and the value of the house drops to $300,000, you are in big trouble -- particularly if you stretched to buy the house and were hoping to refinance, even more so if you need to sell the house. Same problem if you borrowed money to buy shares of a stock, and its value sinks instead of rises. In a capitalist economy, an asset is worth only what someone is willing to pay for it. If no buyer materializes, the asset is literally worthless.

In a debt-deflation, a financial chain reaction sets off a general depression. Owners of assets -- stock shares, bonds, houses, farms -- either conclude that prices have peaked and it's time to bail, or they are caught by falling prices, asked to produce collateral, and are forced to sell into a declining market. Sellers overwhelm buyers, reducing the value of assets overall and intensifying the collapse. It's as if the entire economy faces a margin call and goes into fire-sale mode.

The whole credit system can seize up because suddenly markets are short of buyers even for blue-chip securities that are ordinarily considered sound. Low interest rates can't fix that problem when too few people have the confidence to lend, borrow, or buy. In the 1930s, economists analogized the problem to "pushing on a string."

By the time the dust settles, demand has taken a huge hit, and the credit crisis has spilled over, causing businesses to go bust, banks to fail, workers to lose their jobs, and consumers to tighten their belts, further shrinking demand and deepening the depression. In the 1930s, even Roosevelt's heroic measures got the economy only partway into recovery. It took the massive government borrowing and public spending of World War II to finally repair the wreckage of 1929.

Typically, this debt-deflation syndrome is set off when excessive euphoria and speculative borrowing bid up prices to unsustainably high levels -- creating a bubble. When some random event leads the market to doubt whether those prices can be sustained, the psychology goes into reverse, and panic-selling ensues.

Fisher's description is as chillingly fresh as today's financial pages. The epic example, of course, was the speculative frenzy of the 1920s, stimulated by conflicts of interest on the part of Wall Street insiders. In more recent cases where a bubble burst, such as the LTCM affair or the dot-com bust, the Fed was able to contain the wider damage. But if the entire economy is an asset bubble, it remains to be seen whether the current crisis is more like those other containable panics, or more like 1929. http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_bubble_economy

[south ov da border]

now everyone watch the different countriest that will stop taking the dollar.

Look up whatever countries you want now, and see that this isn't just an American issue.

I won't bother to post links and explanations, because only you can search the truth if you really care and are willing to accept it...

[Tomfurbs]

Listen, if everyone just eases up on their spending, doesn't dump all thier shares, keeps up those mortgage payments every month, and STOPS PANICKING, then everything will be fine and dandy.

This is nothing like the Great Depression. This is like the slump of the early 90's.

The main thing driving this now is the scaremongering media, and the 'thick-as-pig-shit-believe-everything-you-read traders'.


Sit tight everyone. It'l be rocky, but just learn to save.

[south ov da border]

this isn't like the slump of the early 90's. IT's much worse. Just the facts- PEAKED OIL PRODUCTION, impossible deficit, illegal taxation and subsequent looting, close to 7 billion people, receeding water supply, food waste. Just a mess.

We don't have a new system to fix this. THere's nothing that we can do besides scrap this thing. We as a people have the least invested in it really, since nobody really OWNS anything. You fail to pay taxes you lose it. Just a big sham to keep you HOMELESS with a roof.

We're all homeless, this body is just a rental...

[tishatv]

here is the problem.....listen carefully. this whole problem can be traced back to one man....Alan Greenspan. the man is an irresponsible ass. i believe it was 2000, 2001 something like that and we had just come off the big dot com stock bubble crash. the entire federal reserve board was in favor of raising or keeping interest rate where they were ( though still artificially low ). under pressure most likely from the clinton adm. easy al talked the board into lowering rates aka printing more money. this fueled the real estate bubble and we know how that story is playing out. they can now lower rates to zero and it won't matter one damn bit because the banks aint loanin' money to anyone. as interest rates lower our currency turns to toilet paper. this fuels inflation as everthing we import we have to pay for with our toilet paper. it takes many rolls of toilet paper to buy a barrel of oil. this by the way is the reason the price of oil is going up. oil is price in U.S. currency (toilet paper). The best thing we could do know....even though we should have been doing it all along is to raise interest rates and shore up our currency. I know some of you are saying "but it make our goods cheaper to export" and that is true except that we don't export nearly as much as we used to and when our economy hits the skids completely the rest of the world is going to suffer big time as our foolish monetary policy has been the guiding force to the world wide bubble

[stimpy17]

and it's not going to get any better until/unless bush and cheney are history.

Sure, then vote Obama in 2008.

He'll fix the economy..... by MAKING A SPEECH!

Seriously now, to fix the economy, you need to:
1) LOWER the taxes
2) Compete internationally (China-Inda-Brazil have been kicking our butts the last 5 years). To achieve that we must flex our muscles in the middle east, asia, south america and everywhere else.

Singing Kumbaya ain't gonna do crap.

LOL! I like this!
Everyone of our elected officials have their fingers in the pie, Rep's and Dem's. To effect REAL CHANGE start by slapping some of these fat-cats in jail. I'm still wondering how a Senator that is payed under $170K a year be worth multi millions of dollars, health care and a pension for life?
Cork suck rat bastages!

BTW, the sub-prime mess we're now facing wasn't started by this administration, it was the brain child of Congress during the previous one. But if it makes anyone feel better then blame Bush/Cheney I'm more worried about what is going to happen when the adults leave.

[trish]

what is going to happen when the adults leave....and the absolutely senile take over. What fucking adults are you talking about? The bunglers and whiners currently in the White House who took more vacation/play time than any president in history? Not only couldn't Bush respond responsibly to a 3:00am phone call, he couldn't even compose a complete thought for 7 minutes after being informed the U.S. was under attack, and he was wide awake. I'm wondering if this country can survive another ten or eleven months of this infant.

[Buzz]

anyone know a good way to invest in Euros for a US resident?
Have a look at Everbank (http://www.everbank.com/).

By the way, this analysis group (http://www.europe2020.org/?lang=en) has been eerily accurate so far.

[Aunt Kay]

I just want to get my ass humped as many times as possible before the lights go out for good.

[will802]

what is going to happen when the adults leave....and the absolutely senile take over. What fucking adults are you talking about? The bunglers and whiners currently in the White House who took more vacation/play time than any president in history? Not only couldn't Bush respond responsibly to a 3:00am phone call, he couldn't even compose a complete thought for 7 minutes after being informed the U.S. was under attack, and he was wide awake. I'm wondering if this country can survive another ten or eleven months of this infant.

I couldn't have said it better myself...nicely stated...

[TSCURIOUS]

Listen, if everyone just eases up on their spending, doesn't dump all thier shares, keeps up those mortgage payments every month, and STOPS PANICKING, then everything will be fine and dandy.

This is nothing like the Great Depression. This is like the slump of the early 90's.

The main thing driving this now is the scaremongering media, and the 'thick-as-pig-shit-believe-everything-you-read traders'.


Sit tight everyone. It'l be rocky, but just learn to save.

Tom - You're a genius and pretty smart. Similar to what I intended to last page, but I was a bit pissed. That market adjustment of the 90's ? - I'm up from $10K to over $50K on that one. LIve within your means and all wil be OK.

[4star4]

Trish, I can see that you understand the crisis of our economy. From here forth, to everyone, do you not see that the USA is facing a financial crises? This will, and is causing a global meltdown. Have any one of you kept track of the Japanese Nikkei? That market was at 40,000 in the mid '90's. Now its at 11,000. The Dow, NYSE, Russel 500 etc. is suffering the same fate. The FED has cut interest rates to the lowest point since before the housing boom, which led to a major bust. This is only a repeat of the past, and things to come.

[Bunzee]

i think actually right now is beginning of a turn around for the better thats that the inner feeling i have i dont think it will be a major depression however the housing prices will be down for a while cuz they were overinflated however the economy seems to be gettin out of the funk and the fact that GW doesn't have that long left in the office is greatly helping it...

[hippifried]

This is the headline from the original story that opened this thread:
Wall Street fears for next Great Depression
There's too many words there. Let's try this:
Wall Street fears!
There we go. Everything's back to normal.

Everybody's an expert. There's always some yokel telling everybody what to do with their money. The problem with that is that they're the same yokels that the movers & shakers who can actually affect the economy listen too. Gee, that's working out well.

Economics is the study of how the economy already works, whether there were ever any economists or not. That brings up the next problem. No 2 economists can agree on how anything works. No matter what kind of mathematical or statistical mumbo jumbo anyone throws into the mix, that doesn't change.

So now what? We can all see there's problems. Prices are going up. Unemployment's going up. Wages are stagnant. & now the stock market looks like it might tank. Oh well. The stock market isn't the economy. You are. If you own stock, you still own it whether Bear-Stearns collapses or not. They're just brokers. Let the Federal Reserve & JP Morgan-Chase bail them out if they're so worried. They're just another house of cards like Enron. & like Enron, they don't produce anything but their own stock. 80% of the people employed in the US private sector work for small businesses (less than 500 employees) that aren't listed on the NYSE or the NASDAC.

My advice? I don't have any except to not be too worried. Barring something unforeseen, the mindset in this country is going to change in 10 months. If people are confident that things will improve, they will. We ARE the market. It's the American consumer that pays for EVERYTHING. The hell with a bunch of continuously panic-stricken bozos who don't do anything but buy & sell each other. They'll follow our lead like the sheep they are. Now I don't care so much if the brokers want to bail each other out. I just think they should go retro & refit their offices. If they're going to screw up like they have been lately, then all brokerage offices should be on the 10th floor or higher with windows that open to the street.

[Tomfurbs]

Listen, if everyone just eases up on their spending, doesn't dump all thier shares, keeps up those mortgage payments every month, and STOPS PANICKING, then everything will be fine and dandy.

This is nothing like the Great Depression. This is like the slump of the early 90's.

The main thing driving this now is the scaremongering media, and the 'thick-as-pig-shit-believe-everything-you-read traders'.


Sit tight everyone. It'l be rocky, but just learn to save.

Tom - You're a genius and pretty smart. Similar to what I intended to last page, but I was a bit pissed. That market adjustment of the 90's ? - I'm up from $10K to over $50K on that one. LIve within your means and all wil be OK.

He he, thanks. I hope I would be pretty smart, being a genius and all. :lol:

[Mugai_hentaisha]

and it's not going to get any better until/unless bush and cheney are history.

Sure, then vote Obama in 2008.

He'll fix the economy..... by MAKING A SPEECH!

Seriously now, to fix the economy, you need to:
1) LOWER the taxes
2) Compete internationally (China-Inda-Brazil have been kicking our butts the last 5 years). To achieve that we must flex our muscles in the middle east, asia, south america and everywhere else.

Singing Kumbaya ain't gonna do crap.

Seriously Your two solutions might work except:

1) LOWER the Taxes......Yeah Guess what ole Bushie forgot?...you have to cut spending as well...His spending makes a Liberal look Tight as a Scotsman.

2) Compete internationally (China-Inda-Brazil have been kicking our butts the last 5 years). To achieve that we must flex our muscles in the middle east, asia, south america and everywhere else. Problem The Chi-Ind-Bra connection are kicking our asses.....WITH OUR COMPANIES!!!!!!!!!

Here is one way of boosting the economy, Cut Payroll taxes, put more money in people's pockets by not taking it in the first place. Cut Fed. spending in Crucial areas, Some needless Defense and Social projects. Do away with Dept of Homeland security, Stop fighting the war on drugs and turn it over to people who can do the job...the states.

There are many things you can do to fix the economy like Penalizing a company the closes down a US plant to open up one where workers get pocket lint for wages...I understand they want less and less overhead....but have you seen the price of levi jeans go down since moving all production overseas?

Buckle up people it is going to be a bumpy ride


600 dollars in May??? yeah when that came out most people immediately put 1000 on their credit cards. People you are going to have to stop using your credit cards like they are another source of income.

[Buzz]

If you own stock, you still own it whether Bear-Stearns collapses or not. They're just brokers.
Ah, if that were only true!

Quoting http://blogs.marketwatch.com/greenberg/2008/03/how-to-keep-your-investments-safe/

Contained in virtually every brokerage firm’s standard Account Agreement (generally a Margin Account) is a provision that allows your brokerage to register all your securities in street name, meaning their own. Every security you buy, even if you pay for it in full, might technically belong to your brokerage firm. It could be that all you really own is a claim on the firm for those stocks and bonds. When securities in your account are held in street name, says Eric Brunstad, Visiting Lecturer in Bankruptcy Law at Yale Law School, it’s really not your property. It’s like depositing money in a bank account. Your cash isn’t sitting in the vault in a box with your name on it. You are simply a creditor of the bank. Maybe you should have read the fine print, after all.

For many years, virtually all securities have been held and registered electronically. The elegantly-engraved paper certificates you might remember are largely historical curiosities. Rather, most securities have been dematerialized, and exist only on the electronic books of the issuer and an electronic depository house known as DTCC. The securities industry has promoted this practice of holding in street name as good for investors for a variety of reasons. They will tell you that it makes buying and selling much easier for you, collecting interest payments more timely and simple, and even protects you against the loss or theft of those nettlesome stock or bond certificates, while reducing the costs associated with transfers and deposits. These things are all true.

As is typical with most things brokerage firms and their regulators tell you, however, there is far more to this than meets the eye. In fact, when your securities are held in the name of your brokerage or bank, they, not you, have most the rights of ownership.

[justatransgirl]

Well, I don't want to poo-poo the doomsayers. We have a country that exported all our jobs and manufacturing overseas. We no longer produce anything but war. The tax burden is crushing the economy. Add up all the taxes and fees you pay - 39% fed income tax, 9.2% state, then add 7.75% sales tax on everything you buy/earn - there's 56%. Then add all the rest, gas, phone, property tax etc. It's all too much.

But I'm here in Las Vegas right now with my business partner looking at foreclosures. The Strip is packed with people. The population is expected to increase by 1 million people in the next 10 years. Big residential construction is at a halt - which means in about 18 months there will be no new inventory and existing homes will start increasing due to demand for housing - and the cycle will resume.

There are at least 9 major projects underway, two brand new hotel casinos, the South Point and Red Rock. And over 30 billion in new projects planned between now and and 2011.

The dollar is weak but it's not going to crash. The world economy is not going to crash either.

We just experienced a Huge run up in real estate around the world. To expect things to increase at 20% a year is unrealistic but now that things are pulling back to a sane level everyone is crying disaster. It's not a disaster if you took your profits and reinvest wisely.

The stock market just had the largest one day increase in history. Today it went up 400 points - I made over $30,000 in the past two weeks just moving in and out of the DJI index . Now is a great time to day trade. I'm trading off my frigging iPhone during lunch even!

Visa is releasing the biggest IPO in history. Get a piece of it if you can. It's a no-brainer. Visa will open around $40(we of course won't get that price, just the big institutions) but Mastercard is at $210. Do the math.

If your money isn't already in euros or gold, it's too late. Don't play the stock market if you can't take a short term loss. If you have cash buy land, in 5 years you will double your money. And the fact is, even if you don't people still have to have a place to live. People still need services, it's still a great time to open the right business.

That's what I think anyway. If I'm wrong I guess we will be back selling ass on Craigslist...

Giggle,
TS Jamie :-)

[Aunt Kay]

How much ass can you get for a gold coin?

[TSCURIOUS]

Well, I don't want to poo-poo the doomsayers. We have a country that exported all our jobs and manufacturing overseas. We no longer produce anything but war. The tax burden is crushing the economy. Add up all the taxes and fees you pay - 39% fed income tax, 9.2% state, then add 7.75% sales tax on everything you buy/earn - there's 56%. Then add all the rest, gas, phone, property tax etc. It's all too much.

But I'm here in Las Vegas right now with my business partner looking at foreclosures. The Strip is packed with people. The population is expected to increase by 1 million people in the next 10 years. Big residential construction is at a halt - which means in about 18 months there will be no new inventory and existing homes will start increasing due to demand for housing - and the cycle will resume.

There are at least 9 major projects underway, two brand new hotel casinos, the South Point and Red Rock. And over 30 billion in new projects planned between now and and 2011.

The dollar is weak but it's not going to crash. The world economy is not going to crash either.

We just experienced a Huge run up in real estate around the world. To expect things to increase at 20% a year is unrealistic but now that things are pulling back to a sane level everyone is crying disaster. It's not a disaster if you took your profits and reinvest wisely.

The stock market just had the largest one day increase in history. Today it went up 400 points - I made over $30,000 in the past two weeks just moving in and out of the DJI index . Now is a great time to day trade. I'm trading off my frigging iPhone during lunch even!

Visa is releasing the biggest IPO in history. Get a piece of it if you can. It's a no-brainer. Visa will open around $40(we of course won't get that price, just the big institutions) but Mastercard is at $210. Do the math.

If your money isn't already in euros or gold, it's too late. Don't play the stock market if you can't take a short term loss. If you have cash buy land, in 5 years you will double your money. And the fact is, even if you don't people still have to have a place to live. People still need services, it's still a great time to open the right business.

That's what I think anyway. If I'm wrong I guess we will be back selling ass on Craigslist...

Giggle,
TS Jamie :-)

Pure Genius too!! Could not have said it better myself.

[south ov da border]

this is how politics work.

The next regime takes the blame or credit for the last and messes it up worse. Meanwhile they all add to the mess, finding new and creative ways to explain nothing in particular, while the real dirt is just a sentence long, or a change of a few words attached to some ammendment that nobody's really even going to read.

Lets start from FDR. They made the 2 term rule for this guy. He gave us the New Deal to come back from the struggles of the depression. During that time he created social security. The republicans started the looting immediately after they got the new deal weakened by their control in the supreme court. Then they set up the war plan. Hawaii was taken over by the american businessmen, like the doles. Eventually they couldn't just settle for tax free goods, they had to overthrow them, then allow japan to strike, like the US had a right to be there in the first place. The fact that they were even over there on that part of the world was an inflamitory tactic. The laws and influence they had while still trying to remain "isolated" did not do other countries any good. American history, especially recently, is full of attacks and incidents that allow us to get sucked into some war that allows these corporate businessmen who happen to also be politicians determine how much of the constitution will be left to wipe their asses with. They also launder the money by selling and producing more of their number one investment WEAPONRY.

FEMA and Blackwater should have everyone worried (Think ROBOCOP 3)

I grew up reading and watching a lot of sci fi. Funny sci fi has the word fiction attached to it. Most things science are more fact than anything, so another distraction in everyday language. I read Asimov, Verne, Heinlein, William Gibson, Orwell, etc. What I learned at a young age is that we learn to slow down to the speed of what is around us. We rarely allow ourselves to go with concepts that go outside of the cell we've been given. When we start to break away from that cell. Breaking away from that box is when we truly begin to live. So one of the ways that we are attacked is financially, because most of what we do in this society involved it. And you can't keep a pretty cell without comissary. SO you deal, Cope or Snap.

Fed cut the rate, slowing growth. What next? See, it's just going nowhere. Meanwhile the main men, rockefellers, rothchilds, morgans, chase, Carlyle group, are reigning this thing in SOON. This smells like a war and a lot of things going to crap.

The Economy is Gone, Done, Who's going to back it? With what? More money? Too late for gold now, they looted that too, they don't mention that about the trade center, do they?

How are we as mostly disappearing middle class citizens supposed to win this? This is what history teachers should be teaching -- America means you can lease whatever you want to. New lease on life, mortgage a home, buy a car, credit cards, etc. It's all :crap , if you aren't getting something that has true value for giving something you are getting nothing. Might as well just say, I'm doing you a favor. MONEY IS ONLY WORTH AS MUCH AS YOU YOURSELF VALUE IT. In REALITY, it has no worth only an affixed value. That is the lesson that we are going to learn the hard way SOON.

I'm afraid that bad things will come to pass unless we get an intervention from something more divine than us. I'm hoping for the intervention...

[Cuchulain]

I'm more worried about what is going to happen when the adults leave.

If by adults you mean the 'profit uber alles' crowd, who think it's ok to outsource jobs or cut wages and benefits because it raises the stock price, who think government shouldn't pass laws to prevent corporations from pumping pollution into OUR air and water, who think companies shouldn't pay into an unemployment fund for laid off workers, or be responsible for the medical bills of injured workers, who think Social Security should be privatized or it's right for workers to pay a higher percentage wage tax than people who spend their days sunning on a yacht pay on their dividend checks or it's ok for the 'have-nots' to have a lower quality of health care than the 'haves'......then I say "Good riddance and never darken the hallways of Washington again".

[trish]

Here's the way politics work: The last regime (Clinton-Gore) left office with a TEN YEAR BUDGETARY SURPLUS. The entire Bush/Gore campaign battle was about what to do with that surplus...give it to the wealthy in tax breaks or put it in a lock box for social security. Bush didn't even fucking spend it. He gave it away!!!

[chefmike]

Here's the way politics work: The last regime (Clinton-Gore) left office with a TEN YEAR BUDGETARY SURPLUS. The entire Bush/Gore campaign battle was about what to do with that surplus...give it to the wealthy in tax breaks or put it in a lock box for social security. Bush didn't even fucking spend it. He gave it away!!!Little Bush deserves the same fate as Mussollini received, as well as Cheney and a few others in their neocon cabal.

[lahabra1976]

Well as bad as things may seem to be, there are lot of positives this past week. The stock market had 2 400+ days biggest gain in many years. The Fed are reducing interest rates. Despite ppl views on surpluses/deficits, it never has really been something i worried to heavily about. Right now the deficit only make around 3-4% of gross domestic product (GDP) and even less globally. And it has been shown that stock markets have faired quite well in deficits. Maybe even less well in surpluses. If the stock market does end up recovering in the next month or so, we may only see a short-term recession (if you believe the old believe that the stock market precedes economic conditions).

Additionally, 10 year bond yield are are lower than S&P 500 Stock earning yields. So I am confident about eh future and see this possible recession as an opportunity.

[south ov da border]

stocks are bs. Point blank. It's Consumerism at it's best. The bubble is about to burst, and they will have to either take over or pre-empt. Get ready...

[Johnny B.]

Well if the economy does go down the toilet everyone better get ready for the fall of the USA. I mean not just financial wise I alos mean socialy aswell. Everyone will start attacking everyone for what they have.

There will be a hell of a war here in the US.

[south ov da border]

Well if the economy does go down the toilet everyone better get ready for the fall of the USA. I mean not just financial wise I alos mean socialy aswell. Everyone will start attacking everyone for what they have.

There will be a hell of a war here in the US.

You get it, this is where this is headed. Notice the shift toward the holy war they are attempting. All fabricated, but this was determined a long time ago. We don't have a chance, and it's not just the US. It's a world issue. If you believe in the Bible, now is the time where the WHore of Babylon will come to take face. Pray for intervention, because destruction is inevitable at this point. We can't save ourselves. Those in charge don't want salvation for us.

Get ready...

[Johnny B.]

Well if the economy does go down the toilet everyone better get ready for the fall of the USA. I mean not just financial wise I alos mean socialy aswell. Everyone will start attacking everyone for what they have.

There will be a hell of a war here in the US.

You get it, this is where this is headed. Notice the shift toward the holy war they are attempting. All fabricated, but this was determined a long time ago. We don't have a chance, and it's not just the US. It's a world issue. If you believe in the Bible, now is the time where the WHore of Babylon will come to take face. Pray for intervention, because destruction is inevitable at this point. We can't save ourselves. Those in charge don't want salvation for us.

Get ready...

I will. lol

[AverageJob]

People read this, its the Global economic outlook 2008

http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/research/0,1015,cid%253D185449,00.html

[Quinn]

Well if the economy does go down the toilet everyone better get ready for the fall of the USA. I mean not just financial wise I alos mean socialy aswell. Everyone will start attacking everyone for what they have.

There will be a hell of a war here in the US.

Do you mean like the Road Warrior – because that would be sweet.

http://op-for.com/road_warrior.jpg

-Quinn

[chefmike]

Well if the economy does go down the toilet everyone better get ready for the fall of the USA. I mean not just financial wise I alos mean socialy aswell. Everyone will start attacking everyone for what they have.

There will be a hell of a war here in the US.

You get it, this is where this is headed. Notice the shift toward the holy war they are attempting. All fabricated, but this was determined a long time ago. We don't have a chance, and it's not just the US. It's a world issue. If you believe in the Bible, now is the time where the WHore of Babylon will come to take face. Pray for intervention, because destruction is inevitable at this point. We can't save ourselves. Those in charge don't want salvation for us.

Get ready...

LMFAO @ you two, especially at south border and his religious gibberish.

"The sky is falling, the sky is falling..."

[south ov da border]

IT's not my religious gibberish, I don't personally believe in that crap, it's what they are trying. Their God"dollar" is failing, they will start a war because of it. IF we make it through the summer I will be truly surprised.

Chefmike, hve you been listening to Bush lately? They are basically outlining this thing by w0rds and actions.

Honestly all "religions" will be part of this deception...

[lahabra1976]

LOL you guys/gal are funny, I hear the same crap everytime someone thinks we going into recession

"the world is going to end, global economies will fall...blah blah blah"

Just like Y2k, the end of the world and all that crap.

What ppl never mention is the great depression occurred during a global depression which has to happen for a great depression, global economies have to fall. Do you think that will happen with China becoming global and maybe even Vietnam? Come on, lol!!!

[lahabra1976]

Now is the time to invest your money, buy a house, stocks whatever a year from now we will talk about this crap and laugh. Maybe more like 2 years.

[south ov da border]

economics will fail because the idea is slavery. You only have to sell the idea of slavery, then allow people to become slaves themselves. Economics go hand and hand. Look up the true meaning of Wall Street, and understand there's no more world to take over. It's going to be a real mess.

Lots of people gloom and doom everytime the economy sinks, BUT JUST LOOK AT THE FACTS RIGHT NOW.

The US is in another part of the world that they aren't welcome, but this time, it's not going to be a few powers that stand and fight, it will be a few superpowers. Don't be surprised with our German Pope and German president that there's another Reichstag, and muslims get blamed. Probably some more buildings blowing up. But it will be government planned forward the war agenda. To protect the interests of the investors, there will be a war to hide their misdeeds. That is what I see right now.

If I'm wrong, we'll come back here in two months and everyone can say I'm a fearmonger, but if I'm right, please hope and pray that I am still around to share information...

[lahabra1976]

LOL going to parts of the world where we are hated. Hmm lets so haven't we done that before, Japan ring a bell the country that Bombed us that infamous December 7th. War right more bad news, the IRAQ war of 2004 that speared a good market and Kuwait of 1992, World war II the end of the great depression.

If you right, will that wouldn't be surprising cause that is what everyone else believes. How often has everyone been right about umbigous subject such as economics even better yet i global economies? Will i saw a graph today and saw that ppl generally pull their money out of mutual funds/stocks right when the stock market begins to rise and vice versa. E.g. Feb 2000 was the pick of money put into funds (the beginning of bad downward stock market) and took money out July 2002 (begin of very good upward stock market).

What make me believe its okay cause we will be prepared for it? Its when there are uncertainy and we dont know is the problelm. Right now to many ppl are certain we are in recession and that will allow for us to prepare for it (e.g. lower interest rates, getting loans out of country), ect.

[south ov da border]

OK I''m not NUTS.

W have to prepare emotionally and mentally. A lot of the things we take for granted everyday are fabricated realities. When the rug is pulled from under us, that is what we must be prepared for. Some say it won't happen, others say it will because that's what they were taught, but most don't follow FACTS, HISTORY, etc. No religion will explain everything, as they are all peversely distorted in their interpretions. The languages we speak are all about 1% of what translated, which still is about 1% of another translation, etc. We are pretty dumb when it comes down too it, but it's not entirely our fault. The resources have been hoarded, what we have access to has been table crumbed for many years. We cannot possibly understand the supernatural, which is not really that, but more natural than anything we've ever known.

USA, which is an extention of BRITAIN have been taking over countries and territories for many years. Nobody wants them in their part of the world, but because of the weaponry US takes over and imposes the dollar system of trade. WELL it's all a fabrication, as only a small percentage of people really own and control all that is. Our thoughts are not ours mostly, but what is allowed for us to think by what we have access to. The mess is so deep, and now it is time to cash in. That usually means war.

THIS HAS HAPPENED IN HISTORY BEFORE, SAME TACTICS AND ALL. Difference being now, the propoganda machine is SO thorough and the world is more of a reachable community, easy to spread the false word.

Look I will come right out with this, UNLESS AN INTERVENTION HAPPENS, within the next 2 months things will start blowing up, and natural disasters will come more frequent. Intervention can happen at any time, but if it does not, we are all doomed, ,most of the inhabitants of this planet will die. I am not saying that because I heard it somewhere, or read it or anything. I've had visions of this, and been feeling these things all my life. But besides all that I have felt the change in energy. It has affected my heartbeat, my chi/chakra/spirit whatever you want ot call it. It has produced ringing in my ears and tunnel vision in my eyes, it has ruined my stamina *less sex is involved interestingly enough* and it is evident in every aspect of my life. The Matrix way of living is soon to end.

EVENTS TO KEEP AN EYE ON

CERN and their progress on the supercollider-which is scheduled to shoot in May. Those who aren't familiar, they are going to create back until right after the big bang. They will also be creating mini black holes. Important happening, because at that point MAN will be trying to take his place amongst the gods.

The false flag/ terrorist attacks that might lead to pre-emptive strike. If things start blowing up, whomever is left will be sucked into the puppet government of all time. It's being set up for that as we speak. The attacks won't just be of a human nature.

The collapse of world economy as the investors/ bankers cash in and eliminate whole classes of people. We are too dependant on the matrix way of living. We don't have enough local food/composts/water purification methods to make it on our own. Lots of people will feel pinched soon

Unexplainable weather. Anyone notice that dip in Jet stream, the tornadoes nobody sees? Watch out for quakes in places they don't usually happen. Cali has maybe a year or two left. By the way, Cali sits on top of the pacific on a shelf, and the ocean contunes all the way to nevada. Pay attention to the skies and waters around southern cali in particular, there are submerged bases .

If you really want answers, meditate, believe that there is more out there, try and center your energy, try and dream, vision. It's time to be accepting of the incoming energy and shift in concious.

If I'm wrong, proceed to ridicule me, but before you do, ask a question. AM I REALLY FULFILLED, DO I REALLY BELIEVE THAT THIS EARTH EXISTENCE IS ALL THERE IS? Meditate on that, and then proceed with life...

[lahabra1976]

As far as American Hatred in foreign countries, here is my feeling: well its hatred towards Americans or more specifically the American Government, another form of racism. Racism is hatred towards a group of ppl not to an individual. When I meet a person, what I think of them weather they be black, white, asian, hispanic, male, female, transgender is based on my interaction with them, how they treat me. Its based on the individual not group. Is the same true from American in foreign countries: I think so. When I traveled, at least i was treated this way and I was sometimes even treated with more respect. Foreign countries want to flirt with idea of companies like Coca-Cola, microsoft employeeing them and creating jobs. They have nothing against that and will base their opinion of these companies based off these companies not where they come from.

When I was studying financing, they thought the best way to learn about good companies is to use bottom-top approach not top-bottom. Top-bottom would be using and forecasting current economic conditions (something that economists get wrong more than right) than deciding which sectors will do good or bad, look for a company in that sector that is best or worse. Trouble is it relies on forecasting and sometimes you can't search for the best company in sector (they may not be the best known, how big was starbucks before we knew about it). Bottom-top is just the opposite analyzing the company first than sector than economy. It has been proven countless times this works far better and more profitable, you end up find the one company that only suffered because its sector was out of favor, but the company itself was doing well and had good management.

The point of all this is that countries, except the few exceptions of maybe small groups or countries, use this approach to analyze ppl and companies (small countries dont effect global economies much anyways). They will find these companies in the long run benefit them. Sure occasionally Americans get killed in IRAQ. Right after WWII Japanese couldn't open up business here but how long did they last. I dont know about you but i love driving a dependable Japanese car that gets a lot of miles to the gallon and is inexpensive. Would you prefer a 30K car that a piece of junk and cost tons of gas? And I think most of us use that approach with ppl also. And probaly most of us are sick of relationships where the guy only wants sex and the transexual only wants money. When I analyze companies, I may only find 2-5% that fit the exception to the rule. That is different from relations however cause you dont have to commit to those "wrong companies." So basically you will be wrong far more than right. But once in while you may find that guy who just doesn't want sex or that transexual will that is looking for a long-term relation or something. When you wrong what it only takes an investment of 1 night, 1 week? But be right once, and that could be a lifetime investment.

[lahabra1976]

OK I''m not NUTS.


If I'm wrong, proceed to ridicule me, but before you do, ask a question. ..

LOL if you are wrong, not one will call you nuts or ridicule you cause it is what everyone believed. They will just ignore it or say "oh will maybe Jesus wasn't born on 0 BC so 2000 wasn't the end of the world."

PPl like me are NUTS if we are wrong, ppl say wtf are you thinking IDIOT!!! The facts were totally there. If I am right, they will say "you got lucky."

Its the same with stocks, you lose money on microsoft ppl say "well times are bad." Lose money on some unknown company that hasn't even made a profit and they say "you're nuts you idiot. You think money grows on trees?" :lol:

So I am fucked either way :lol:

[south ov da border]

the choice of belief is the biggest lie that has been given us. If our choices are controlled do we really have a choice of anything?

It's like trying to avoid death. Only thing we know for certain, but always trying to cheat it.

This system we're born in is a lifetime system. To break away from it often reqiures death, but of our accecpted humanity. We just think in too finite concepts, and not allowed info to be more without defense systems in the way. Thus science fiction is deemed more fiction than possible. People who might actually see things and know what's up get deemed lunatics or they go in the category of those going along with what everyone else is saying or not saying.

I'll give you specific things to look for. The Russian situation is about to go up. That coupled with the world recession could make for serious issues in millitary actions. I think that If something happens in the middle east, the first shot at Iran is not going to be taken by the US, but Germany or some other country in Europe. Why? Because the Euro will be the most steady monetary denomination (even though it's a fabrication as well). The pope is german, the bush's aren't who they say they are. the nazi way of doing things is still alive and well. AFter ww2 they didn't kill them, just relocated to the vatican, south america, cia which still has it's own SS by the way. This is all too much to be coincidence.

Oil is such a stupid concept, seeing that free energy and reverse magnetism are so capable of being mass produced. Been around fora while. They keep the tesla tech/alien tech for themselves, charge us to play with tinker toys.

There are many lies that influence beliefs. The belief of a holy trinity. Simon Peter's teachings, the whole catholic myth. The debate of true christianity - both muslim and christian have it completly wrong, and stray further as time goes.

Ever wonder if God is trying to save the world, why it is such a mess? God's not trying to save us, we have to save ourselves by free will. God is a man made concept, used to stimulate the deepest known emotions/controls or man.

When what you have access to is controlled, it is harder to display free will. It takes a complete breakdown of the fabrication and a stillness. Motion and argument keep the illusion going. The karma, choice argument as we know it does the same thing. We can control our own energy, circumstances, and futures, but belief has to be deep. We need to transform our thought process. No person, political figure, religious figurehead will lead us in the right direction. It is so much larger than anything we have the scope to understand.

SO many people spit the same gloom and doom/end of days stuff, so it's easy to disregard what anyone says. I feel like these people should at least give some examples in current and past happenings how things are interconnected , and that rarely happens without including fabricated teachings/skewed history...

[chefmike]

...Our thoughts are not ours mostly...

Speak for yourself.

[chefmike]

OK I''m not NUTS.

W have to prepare emotionally and mentally. A lot of the things we take for granted everyday are fabricated realities. When the rug is pulled from under us, that is what we must be prepared for. Some say it won't happen, others say it will because that's what they were taught, but most don't follow FACTS, HISTORY, etc. No religion will explain everything, as they are all peversely distorted in their interpretions. The languages we speak are all about 1% of what translated, which still is about 1% of another translation, etc. We are pretty dumb when it comes down too it, but it's not entirely our fault. The resources have been hoarded, what we have access to has been table crumbed for many years. We cannot possibly understand the supernatural, which is not really that, but more natural than anything we've ever known.

USA, which is an extention of BRITAIN have been taking over countries and territories for many years. Nobody wants them in their part of the world, but because of the weaponry US takes over and imposes the dollar system of trade. WELL it's all a fabrication, as only a small percentage of people really own and control all that is. Our thoughts are not ours mostly, but what is allowed for us to think by what we have access to. The mess is so deep, and now it is time to cash in. That usually means war.

THIS HAS HAPPENED IN HISTORY BEFORE, SAME TACTICS AND ALL. Difference being now, the propoganda machine is SO thorough and the world is more of a reachable community, easy to spread the false word.

Look I will come right out with this, UNLESS AN INTERVENTION HAPPENS, within the next 2 months things will start blowing up, and natural disasters will come more frequent. Intervention can happen at any time, but if it does not, we are all doomed, ,most of the inhabitants of this planet will die. I am not saying that because I heard it somewhere, or read it or anything. I've had visions of this, and been feeling these things all my life. But besides all that I have felt the change in energy. It has affected my heartbeat, my chi/chakra/spirit whatever you want ot call it. It has produced ringing in my ears and tunnel vision in my eyes, it has ruined my stamina *less sex is involved interestingly enough* and it is evident in every aspect of my life. The Matrix way of living is soon to end.

EVENTS TO KEEP AN EYE ON

CERN and their progress on the supercollider-which is scheduled to shoot in May. Those who aren't familiar, they are going to create back until right after the big bang. They will also be creating mini black holes. Important happening, because at that point MAN will be trying to take his place amongst the gods.

The false flag/ terrorist attacks that might lead to pre-emptive strike. If things start blowing up, whomever is left will be sucked into the puppet government of all time. It's being set up for that as we speak. The attacks won't just be of a human nature.

The collapse of world economy as the investors/ bankers cash in and eliminate whole classes of people. We are too dependant on the matrix way of living. We don't have enough local food/composts/water purification methods to make it on our own. Lots of people will feel pinched soon

Unexplainable weather. Anyone notice that dip in Jet stream, the tornadoes nobody sees? Watch out for quakes in places they don't usually happen. Cali has maybe a year or two left. By the way, Cali sits on top of the pacific on a shelf, and the ocean contunes all the way to nevada. Pay attention to the skies and waters around southern cali in particular, there are submerged bases .

If you really want answers, meditate, believe that there is more out there, try and center your energy, try and dream, vision. It's time to be accepting of the incoming energy and shift in concious.

If I'm wrong, proceed to ridicule me, but before you do, ask a question. AM I REALLY FULFILLED, DO I REALLY BELIEVE THAT THIS EARTH EXISTENCE IS ALL THERE IS? Meditate on that, and then proceed with life...

Do you drop a lot of acid? Or maybe you've been overindulging in psilocybin pizzas? Same difference either way I guess, judging by your post... :roll:

[lahabra1976]

...Our thoughts are not ours mostly...

Speak for yourself.

I thought so, wait no because that thought isnt mine :lol:

[south ov da border]

no, chefmike sadly I've never tried any of that. I did used to have "visitors" when I was younger, a couple of out of bodies, occasional visions and dreams, and some shadow being/spiritual visits. Not too uncommon in my family...

[lahabra1976]

if our thoughts aren't are own, does that mean the previous posts are someone else's thoughts? If so, who so i can kick his ass?

[chefmike]

no, chefmike sadly I've never tried any of that. I did used to have "visitors" when I was younger, a couple of out of bodies, occasional visions and dreams, and some shadow being/spiritual visits. Not too uncommon in my family...

Is it possible that you're an alien? That might explain a lot...

[south ov da border]

the words and concepts we use have been poisoned by the influence of slave masters/financial lords. They want a society with a buffer between them, the all seeing eye and the rest of us, who builds them up. Much like the image on the back of the dollar bill which also says the new world order was successfully completed on the year that is in roman numerals at the bottom of that pyramid. Dollar is the omega of this system. The omega sign is around washington's head. They put it right in front of your eyes, but don't tell you what you are looking at. Just as language works with connotation allowing oversight of literal definitions. So most of our thoughts aren't ours. The translation of them automatically corrupts the authenticity of being "your" thoughts...

[lahabra1976]

so if most of our thoughts aren't ours, so maybe what you just said aren't yours and therefore maybe they aren't true, but than that becomes a circular argument. I mean words are just symbols for meaning just like the dollar bill, why do you interpret it anything beyond that. Just like the saying "I have go to the John" supposely came form someone named John, anycase still means the toilet. i dont see it as slave thing, its just a word.

[south ov da border]

no, chefmike sadly I've never tried any of that. I did used to have "visitors" when I was younger, a couple of out of bodies, occasional visions and dreams, and some shadow being/spiritual visits. Not too uncommon in my family...

Is it possible that you're an alien? That might explain a lot...

I can't say that I am an alien, at least not with the senses and blocks I've man has. I've always felt like a stranger here though. Funny, I'm reading hitchhikers guide to the galaxy right now, and that's kind of how I feel...

[south ov da border]

so if most of our thoughts aren't ours, so maybe what you just said aren't yours and therefore maybe they aren't true, but than that becomes a circular argument. I mean words are just symbols for meaning just like the dollar bill, why do you interpret it anything beyond that. Just like the saying "I have go to the John" supposely came form someone named John, anycase still means the toilet. i dont see it as slave thing, its just a word.

slave word, jailed to a concept determined by "democratic" aka mob rule tactics, what is accepted by the mob is therefore truth. Because words aren't mine, I can't paint the concepts clearly, all I can do is share this bastard language. Just more distractions and interference to hide meaning as I have come to understand it. I was told that trying to share things will only lead me to more frustration, akin to the tower of Babel. I'm trying to get closer to the universal language...

[Johnny B.]

Well if the economy does go down the toilet everyone better get ready for the fall of the USA. I mean not just financial wise I alos mean socialy aswell. Everyone will start attacking everyone for what they have.

There will be a hell of a war here in the US.

Do you mean like the Road Warrior – because that would be sweet.

http://op-for.com/road_warrior.jpg

-Quinn

Yeah exactly just like that movie.

[Riddler]

LooK OuT

[trish]

CERN and their progress on the supercollider-which is scheduled to shoot in May. Those who aren't familiar, they are going to create back until right after the big bang. They will also be creating mini black holes. Important happening, because at that point MAN will be trying to take his place amongst the gods.

actually i'm pretty excited about this. it has nothing what-so-ever to do with taking our place amonst the gods. (it sounds like you're the one who believes there's a place for us there). in fact it's hoped we will be able to confirm or deny the predictions of conflicting theories of super-symmetry and perhaps find the top-quark. we just want to scratch at the surface of our ignorance. no black holes will be created or harmed in the process.

[Oli]

we just want to scratch at the surface of our ignorance. no black holes will be created or harmed in the process.

But what happens if this experiment causes us to enter the next dimension?

http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~gogo/images/homer2.jpg

[ezed]

DELORES!! DELORESSS!!!, CAN YOU FIND THE HOCKEY GAME ON THIS DAMN THING!!! I'M GETTING A HEADACHE!!! AND BRING ME A BEER FOR CHRISTSAKE!

[lahabra1976]

[
But what happens if this experiment causes us to enter the next dimension?

http://www.seas.gwu.edu/~gogo/images/homer2.jpg

Homer Simpson owns so that be awesome, although Peter Griffin would be even cooler

[bartholomeus]

IMO somewhere between the extreme position of those who theorize about the NWO and the regular though lies the truth, but I believe its not defenitely what we are told. And religion can rot, we would be a much better place without ANY religion and the stupidity of those who believe that intelligent design is more rational than bigbang etc etc. If there was a god i doubt he would want us to kill, starve, and nuke each other....

Back to the topic this is bad everything is going up i went to buy grosseries today and wow things are up so much. I remember buying tuna cans for .49 cents now they are .68 and this is at costco... eggs and milk are through the roof.

From what i have been explained the tax relief plan that bush is giving this year is up to 600$ for single people but its like an advance payment. So if this doesn't help boost the economy by next year, all those who receive their taxes will have 600 less since it would be declared in your '08 taxes. That would mean next january people will recieve less from the IRS or have to pay back; effectively stalling the economy which is already hurting.
no?

[BeardedOne]

So if this doesn't help boost the economy by next year, all those who receive their taxes will have 600 less since it would be declared in your '08 taxes.

Based on an average tax bracket of 15% that would be $90 more in taxes for the 2008 tax year.

I don't give a flying fart in space how stoopid it sounds, I'll take that $510.00.