Benazir Bhutto Slain

[Quinn]

Is there anyone who doesn't believe Pakistan's ISI facilitated this?

-Quinn

[BrendaQG]

I do not. Here is why.

1.) A few years back terrorist tried to blow up General Pervez Musharif.

2.) Prez Mushariff imposed Martial law for six weeks. He was criticized and compared to Hitler for doing so. In hindsight if there was still Martial law Bhutto would still be alive.

3.) According to a interesting report on Fox news. 48% of the people of Pakistan Sympathize with Al-queda and/or the Taliban. The Taliban do not belive in Women being leaders of countries.

4.) Taliban and Al-Queda sympathizers are in the ISI. If the ISI did this then it means that Gen. Mushariff has no control.

I hope to god this does not escalate to a nuclear civil war of some kind.

[BrendaQG]

To put this in context for many of you. If you know how Argentinians revered Eva Peron. Benazir Bhutto was like that for the Pakistani's.

[Oli]

Is there anyone who doesn't believe Pakistan's ISI facilitated this.

-Quinn

Not in the least.

[Quinn]

I do not. Here is why.

1.) A few years back terrorist tried to blow up General Pervez Musharif.

2.) Prez Mushariff imposed Martial law for six weeks. He was criticized and compared to Hitler for doing so. In hindsight if there was still Martial law Bhutto would still be alive.

3.) According to a interesting report on Fox news. 48% of the people of Pakistan Sympathize with Al-queda and/or the Taliban. The Taliban do not belive in Women being leaders of countries.

4.) Taliban and Al-Queda sympathizers are in the ISI. If the ISI did this then it means that Gen. Mushariff has no control.

I hope to god this does not escalate to a nuclear civil war of some kind.

Good post, Brenda. I think it's important to note a number of specific points:

1) The Taliban are a creation of Pakistan's ISI.

2) Though the Director Generals of the ISI – none of whom have a background as intelligence officers within the ISI – are assigned from the Military, the ISI functions as a competitor to military intelligence and is known for pursuing agendas opposed to the military’s interests. For example, elements within the ISI provided operational assistance to Taliban forces operating from within Pakistan’s tribal lands when they were fighting against that nation’s military (recently).

3) Pakistan’s government, despite having a very large military at its disposal, has never had functional control over large portions of the country, specifically the tribal areas.

4) Bhutto’s assassination took place in an area known to have a strong military presence.

From my perspective, the ISI stands to benefit from this act more than anyone. Think about it:

1) The democratically-oriented candidate widely favored to win Pakistan’s next election – a candidate who had sworn to aggressively pursue Taliban aligned elements within the tribal areas and within the ISI – is dead. (This is significant when we consider how far the ISI went to undermine Musharraf’s efforts to pursue Taliban aligned elements.)

2) The military government of Pervez Musharraf gets the blame, which is what the current protests are about, thereby weakening said government. For the foreseeable future, the aforementioned government will have to worry about maintaining control over areas it has traditionally governed – as opposed to giving into U.S. pressure to assert itself in tribal areas (which have never been controlled by anyone, save ISI aligned tribal chieftains).

The ISI had more to gain from this than anyone. My belief is that we’re looking at a situation in which fundamentalist elements (probably Taliban) were operating with ISI assistance/oversight. And, yes, I could be wrong.

Thoughts?

-Quinn

[hippifried]

This was a stupid move, no matter who was behind it or if there was anyone behind it.

I'm taking a wait & see aproach. Unless Mushariff does something even more stupid, like postponing the elections next month, this might just piss off enough people to sweep Bhutto's party into power with a landslide that nobody can ignore. Without her at the top, the whole "I'll never vote for a woman" obstacle goes away. I know that sounds cynical, but hey, it's a cynical world.

[BrendaQG]

Here's A stupider thing.

I just saw A still picture on CNN which is from just a spit second before she was shot. Ms Bhutto was safely in a armored SUV. A crowd of supporters has gathered around. She got up through the Sun roof to wave at the crowd. That is when she got shot.

Not so unlike Prez Kennedy taking off the bullet proof bubbletop before driving through Dealy Plaza.

She should have known better.

http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/bhutto.photographer/t1home.preblast.gi.jpg

[trish]

fasten your seat belts, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

[beandip]

4.) Taliban and Al-Queda sympathizers are in the ISI. If the ISI did this then it means that Gen. Mushariff has no control.



General Mush has no control. US Special Forces have been in Pak "guarding" their nukes since Mush declared himself "supreme ruler" a few years ago. We (US ) do not trust Mush. Mush controls about 1/2 of the military...and that's it. Mush does not control his own nukes. If he smokes our SF guys... we smoke Pak. End of story.

[beandip]

1) The Taliban are a creation of Pakistan's ISI.

Dig deeper. Pak ISI is the sole creation of US CIA. In 1979 US went to the hot bed of Islamic religious nutters, then PAK and asked them to find your most ignorant militaristic nutters who are hell bent on geting their 72 virgins.... assemble them and we'll train them. The CIA schooled PAK military / intelligence officers who then became the ISI. ISI trained Islamic militant nutters (then called Mujahadeem) to fight soviets in Trash-can-istan.

Read the book "Blow back"...there's a pretty good chronological break down of our creating / expanding the whole Islamo-facism movement.

It's Karma baby...pure and simple.

[CORVETTEDUDE]

Beandip...you and the book "Blow Back" are not all right but, you're also not all wrong. I am, respectfully, unable to expand any further on the matter.

[BrendaQG]

Here is another picture. It appears to be a split second after the explosion. It is blurry so I took the liberty of circling a blur that looks to me to be Ms. Bhutto still standing up after the explosion. This would conflict with much reporting that has her being shot then the explosion.

It almost looks as if as the explosion happened she was still waving to the crowd. Look at her right hand (on the left of the photo).

[Quinn]

Beandip...you and the book "Blow Back" are not all right but, you're also not all wrong. I am, respectfully, unable to expand any further on the matter.

Corvette, would you feel comfortable giving a very general explanation as to what is right and/or what is wrong with the book? (I was considering picking is up.) If not, I more than understand why.

-Quinn

[Quinn]

ISI, warlords are main suspects in Bhutto killing: Reports

PTI
Friday, December 28, 2007 18:04 IST

LONDON: Pakistan's powerful Inter-Services Intelligence agency (ISI) and Islamist militants are the main suspects in the assassination of former premier Benazir Bhutto, British media reported today.

"The foreign and Pakistani Islamist militants saw Bhutto as a Westernised heretic and an American stooge and had repeatedly threatened to kill her."

"But fingers will also be pointed at ISI which has had close ties to the Islamists since the 1970s and has been used by successive Pakistani leaders to suppress political opposition," The Times, daily, reported.

Bhutto narrowly escaped an assassination attempt in October when a suicide bomber struck at a rally in Karachi to welcome her back after eight years in exile.

Bhutto had said after the attack that she had received a letter, signed by someone claiming to be a friend of al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, threatening to slaughter her like a goat.

Earlier that month two Pakistani militant warlords based in the country's northwestern areas had threatened to kill her. One was Baitullah Mehsud, a top militant commander fighting the Pakistani Army in South Waziristan, who has ties to al-Qaeda and the Afghan Taleban.

The other was Haji Omar, the leader of the Pakistani Taliban, who is also from South Waziristan and fought with the Afghan Mujahidin against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

But she also accused Pakistani authorities of not providing her with sufficient security, and hinted that they may have been complicit in the Karachi attack.

Bhutto indicated that she had more to fear from unidentified members of a power structure that she described as allies of the 'forces of militancy'.

Quoting analysts, the report said President Pervez Musharraf is unlikely to have ordered her assassination, but that elements of the Army and intelligence service stood to lose money and power if she became prime minister.

The ISI includes some Islamists who became radicalized while running the American-funded campaign against the Soviets in Afghanistan and were opposed to her on principle.

Saudi Arabia is also thought to have frowned on Bhutto as being too secular and Westernised and to have favoured another former premier Nawaz Sharif.

-Quinn

[Rogers]

"Seems" the pampered princess died of a skull fracture, Quinn:

Bhutto 'died after hitting head on car roof', Pakistan government claims
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3103100.ece

Let the conspiracy theories begin.

[Quinn]

"Seems" the pampered princess died of a skull fracture, Quinn:

Bhutto 'died after hitting head on car roof', Pakistan government claims
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3103100.ece

Let the conspiracy theories begin.

Yeah, I saw that too. Judging from how the Pakistani people are reacting, they're not buying anything. I'll be curious to see how this whole thing plays out. Frankly, I don't believe anything coming from the Pakistani government anymore than the Pakistani people seem to.

-Quinn

[vegasboy]

1) The Taliban are a creation of Pakistan's ISI.

Dig deeper. Pak ISI is the sole creation of US CIA. In 1979 US went to the hot bed of Islamic religious nutters, then PAK and asked them to find your most ignorant militaristic nutters who are hell bent on geting their 72 virgins.... assemble them and we'll train them. The CIA schooled PAK military / intelligence officers who then became the ISI. ISI trained Islamic militant nutters (then called Mujahadeem) to fight soviets in Trash-can-istan.

Read the book "Blow back"...there's a pretty good chronological break down of our creating / expanding the whole Islamo-facism movement.

It's Karma baby...pure and simple.
The CIA did train the Mujahideen in Afghanistan and also some intelligence officers for the ISI. Of course they were looking for the most militaristic, and perhaps even the ones with the least regard for their own lives. The men they trained, believed, somewhat fantastically that they'd get 72 virgins for their holy war.

However, to say it's karma sort of implies that you supported the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan to begin with. I'm not saying that any of the cold war games were in our best interest since the Soviet Union ended up falling apart from within anyway. But hindsight is 20/20. Do you really believe that training men nearly 30 years ago to fight imperialistic foreign occupiers (yes I understand the irony) justifies the assassination of any allegedly pro-western leader in a Middle Eastern or far Eastern country? Does it justify any action these same men carry out with the use of our weaponry and our training against our civilians? If anything, it should warrant gratitude, even though they now possess the know how to carry out these attacks.

I hate these false ironies that people think are so clever. We underestimated how maniacal these one time freedom fighters were. Some of the fanatics were freedom fighters against the Soviets. But are you going to tell me that the Taliban regime in Afghanistan still deserves to have its sovereignty respected?

[beandip]

However, to say it's karma sort of implies that you supported the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan to begin with. I'm not saying that any of the cold war games were in our best interest since the Soviet Union ended up falling apart from within anyway. But hindsight is 20/20. Do you really believe that training men nearly 30 years ago to fight imperialistic foreign occupiers (yes I understand the irony) justifies the assassination of any allegedly pro-western leader in a Middle Eastern or far Eastern country? Does it justify any action these same men carry out with the use of our weaponry and our training against our civilians? If anything, it should warrant gratitude, even though they now possess the know how to carry out these attacks.

I hate these false ironies that people think are so clever. We underestimated how maniacal these one time freedom fighters were. Some of the fanatics were freedom fighters against the Soviets. But are you going to tell me that the Taliban regime in Afghanistan still deserves to have its sovereignty respected?



you sure do assume a whole bunch of stuff there buddy.

I merely said it's KARMA.

[vegasboy]

It was an extension of the position you're advocating by saying that assassinations are Karma, or the murder of civilians is Karma. It isn't Karma to enable a group for one set of reasons, and then have them use the skills against you for a different, completely illegitimate set of other reasons. But, what would really be karma would be someone in your family being torn to shreds by schrapnel after making the argument that said attacks are Karma? No, that would just be irony.

Did you or did you not support the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan? Don't answer if you don't want to Mr. Irwin.