Is anyone here a Muslim?

[the commander]

I suspect there will be few, if any, who consider themselves Muslim, but it would be interesting to talk to someone who is.

The Commander
DIA

[lust4ts]

I'm a Jedi Knight, is there anything you would like to ask me?

[the commander]

I'm a Jedi Knight, is there anything you would like to ask me?

Will you teach me the ways of the force? I totally want to choke somebody with the powers of my mind.

The Commander
DIA

[lust4ts]

I'm a Jedi Knight, is there anything you would like to ask me?

Will you teach me the ways of the force? I totally want to choke somebody with the powers of my mind.

The Commander
DIA

You'll have to travel to the Dagobah System and seek the one they call Yoda! There he will teach you about the force and the ways of the Jedi..........But be ware of the darkside, the temptations are strong!

[additive73]

well I have born in a 90% muslim country.. All my relatives as muslim... I think that makes me muslim right :))))...

[Bee]

Im a muslim :wink:

[the commander]

I'm a Jedi Knight, is there anything you would like to ask me?

Will you teach me the ways of the force? I totally want to choke somebody with the powers of my mind.

The Commander
DIA

You'll have to travel to the Dagobah System and seek the one they call Yoda! There he will teach you about the force and the ways of the Jedi..........But be ware of the darkside, the temptations are strong!

Whatever...I just want to know if the darkside will help me get laid. Chicks dig bad boys, right?

The Commander
DIA

[the commander]

well I have born in a 90% muslim country.. All my relatives as muslim... I think that makes me muslim right :))))...

I'm gonna have to go with "no" on this one. If you don't follow the tenents of Islam, or believe Muhammed is his prophet...then I don't think you can claim to be a Muslim.

Sorry. :(

The Commander
DIA

[the commander]

Im a muslim :wink:

I think you're teasing. :)

The Commander
DIA

[Bee]

No im not... Why should i?
Is it matter? I mean...well, i never see anybody by their religion...

[Legend]

Why did you get demoted to a rookie poster?

[MacShreach]

This has all the classic signs of a bait thread.

[the commander]

No im not... Why should i?
Is it matter? I mean...well, i never see anybody by their religion...

Alright, I'll take you at your word.

Assuming you're Muslim...and and assuming you are a Transsexual admirer, how do you reconcile an attraction to shemales with your religion? Is it just a misconception that Islam prohibits homosexuality? I'd like to pick your brain a bit regarding Islam and Transsexuality.

The Commander
DIA

[the commander]

This has all the classic signs of a bait thread.

I'm guessing you mean I want to bait someone into a flame war...am I wrong?

I dont want a flame war, I just want to explore Islam and Transsexualism...and figured it would be best to talk to someone who was Muslim. Straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.

The Commander
DIA

[the commander]

Why did you get demoted to a rookie poster?

To sum it up...I used to cross-dress...now I dont, so i am no longer a Hung Angel.

The Commander
DIA

[Wombat]

Indonesia, where Bee is from, tends toward moderate Islam. I have been there heaps of times and unlike some Muslim countries I have been to, it is easy to get beer, spirits and women.
My first BJ from a TG was on a wharf in Surabaya while I was eating a plate of nasi-goreng.
Yum on both counts...LOL

[Bee]

Indonesia, where Bee is from, tends toward moderate Islam. I have been there heaps of times and unlike some Muslim countries I have been to, it is easy to get beer, spirits and women.
My first BJ from a TG was on a wharf in Surabaya while I was eating a plate of nasi-goreng.
Yum on both counts...LOL

:D Cool!

So, how do you like Surabaya? Have you ever been to Jakarta?
What a experience...Have a delicious Nasi Goreng while a pretty LB do a nice BJ down there..

[ottorocket]

Islam practiced anywhere other than a westernized mainstream country, doesn't condone or tolerate transexualism, homosexuality, or Tila Tequila. THey hang men by their necks if found out to be any of the above.

[MacShreach]

This has all the classic signs of a bait thread.

I'm guessing you mean I want to bait someone into a flame war...am I wrong?

I dont want a flame war, I just want to explore Islam and Transsexualism...and figured it would be best to talk to someone who was Muslim. Straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.

The Commander
DIA

You were right, but maybe I was wrong.

[jimbobw2]

Islam practiced anywhere other than a westernized mainstream country, doesn't condone or tolerate transexualism, homosexuality, or Tila Tequila. THey hang men by their necks if found out to be any of the above.

They have also been known to kill their children and stone their women. For the most insane reasons.

[Bee]

Islam practiced anywhere other than a westernized mainstream country, doesn't condone or tolerate transexualism, homosexuality, or Tila Tequila. THey hang men by their necks if found out to be any of the above.

They have also been known to kill their children and stone their women. For the most insane reasons.

:roll: Not in my country!

[Night Rider]

They have also been known to kill their children and stone their women. For the most insane reasons.

That's the biggest generalisation I've heard here in a while. Is that your idea of a stereotype Muslim? Someone who stones their women and kills their children?

I'm assuming you're talking about executions in which case the West is just as guilty. USA still has the Death Penalty although it's nowhere near as brutal as the Middle East.

[TheShyGuy]

Wow. One of the responses here was incredibly ignorant. Interesting juxtaposition. Liberal on sexuality but a conservative stance on muslims?
I have to say that the question asks the wrong question. It suggests that Islam and transsexuals are totally impossible together and somehow the other big 3 religions say its all good. That's untrue. The COUNTRIES in which islam is predominant haven't yet become as liberal as Europe and America (and america seems to be regressing). I don't think it's an issue of religion bc im sure it would be punishable by death if the christian conservatives could have their way and form an entirely christian country with strict christian laws.
I'm muslim but not practicing much. Armenian and family scattered around Iran, turkey, Afghanistan and whatever name iraq is going to have once its 10 pieces. I don't think I really need to reconcile islam with transsexuality bc its not a problem for me. I'm utterly turned off by men (outside of their company). The transsexual women and genetic women i'm attracted to are usually the top of the pile so i'm just interested in absolute feminine beauty. Thats why i wouldnt live in a conservative muslim country, just like i wouldnt live in a conservative part of america or with jewish settlers in hebron.
People are the same everywhere, despite their religion. For example, there are literally thousands of muslim pornstars, particularly in california and europe and france (though the ones in america often say they're spanish sometimes and bangladeshi other times) and there are plenty of muslim transsexuals (probably liberal just like there are probably no hardcore conservative christian transsexuals) in london. My favorite is kahylla mohammed from brazil who is hands down one of the most feminine beauties in the world. So yeah, for me it's not a problem bc im liberal. Just like it's not a problem for you if you're a christian liberal.

[TheShyGuy]

BTW, which countries have the most transsexuals? Thailand which is mostly buddhist. Next on the list? Iran with 20,000 and people say up to 150,000. Yup interesting. You're going to like the reason. The ayatollah, like lots of guys who reach the top of the heap in their religious professions (lots of pastors and teg haggert for example), was apparently just a regular guy. He made up the laws which said that homosexuality for men is punishable by death for the first infraction. But get this, if women did it, they would need to get caught 3 times for it to be death worthy. And transsexuals? LEGAL. lol. These things almost humanize muslims as regular people though so youll never hear about it in american news.

[TheShyGuy]

some more of this iranian transsexual girl in an article

[SXFX]

Ahhhh between the beer drinking and the gambling and the womanizing.....sure maybe! But I'm persian so it's ok!
But I do practice Ramadan.
Helps center me in my life and teaches me about who I am as an individual.

[Hannibal Lecter]

This has all the classic signs of a bait thread.

I'm guessing you mean I want to bait someone into a flame war...am I wrong?

I dont want a flame war, I just want to explore Islam and Transsexualism...and figured it would be best to talk to someone who was Muslim. Straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.

The Commander
DIA
So, you are exploring... oh, really ?!?

Let me just tell you one thing: a cross-dresser & fagot like you would
probably be very badly "punished" in a radical muslim country and I completely
agree with those radical muslims, they should do it, but only because you started
such an unnecessary, provoking and borderline racistic shitty little thread like this one.

And moderators do nothing against that, of course... sick..

[Wombat]

Indonesia, where Bee is from, tends toward moderate Islam. I have been there heaps of times and unlike some Muslim countries I have been to, it is easy to get beer, spirits and women.
My first BJ from a TG was on a wharf in Surabaya while I was eating a plate of nasi-goreng.
Yum on both counts...LOL

:D Cool!

So, how do you like Surabaya? Have you ever been to Jakarta?
What a experience...Have a delicious Nasi Goreng while a pretty LB do a nice BJ down there..

I like the 'Badge'(Surabaya) just fine, been there many times. I have been to Jakarta also, can't recall how many times, quite a few. Always have fun in Block M. 8)
Been to many out of the way places, for example, Ambon and Balikpapan. Love Indonesia, have only had a couple of 'anti-western' incidents. Generally though I find the people friendly and inquisitive, and I love the food.

Sampai nanti!

[odelay24]

No im not... Why should i?
Is it matter? I mean...well, i never see anybody by their religion...

Alright, I'll take you at your word.

Assuming you're Muslim...and and assuming you are a Transsexual admirer, how do you reconcile an attraction to shemales with your religion? Is it just a misconception that Islam prohibits homosexuality? I'd like to pick your brain a bit regarding Islam and Transsexuality.

The Commander
DIA

well, not all Muslims are hardline.

It'd be like saying 'all Christians dismiss evolution'.

[the commander]

Indonesia, where Bee is from, tends toward moderate Islam. I have been there heaps of times and unlike some Muslim countries I have been to, it is easy to get beer, spirits and women.
My first BJ from a TG was on a wharf in Surabaya while I was eating a plate of nasi-goreng.
Yum on both counts...LOL

I thought Indonesia was more hardcore conservative than that. Maybe I am thinking of Malaysia. Is Indonesia also tolerant towards homosexuality?

The Commander
DIA

[the commander]

BTW, which countries have the most transsexuals? Thailand which is mostly buddhist. Next on the list? Iran with 20,000 and people say up to 150,000. Yup interesting. You're going to like the reason. The ayatollah, like lots of guys who reach the top of the heap in their religious professions (lots of pastors and teg haggert for example), was apparently just a regular guy. He made up the laws which said that homosexuality for men is punishable by death for the first infraction. But get this, if women did it, they would need to get caught 3 times for it to be death worthy. And transsexuals? LEGAL. lol. These things almost humanize muslims as regular people though so youll never hear about it in american news.

In response to another post of yours....I didn't mean to imply that all other religions were kosher with T-grrls except Islam. But you can't deny that in general countries that are predominantly Muslim tend to be more conservative than western countries, especially regarding sex and homosexuality.

You wouldn't happen to have a link to the article where your pictures came from, do you? This is the first time I've heard of Transexualism and the practices in Iran. I'd like to read more.

Thanks!

The Commander
DIA

[the commander]

This has all the classic signs of a bait thread.

I'm guessing you mean I want to bait someone into a flame war...am I wrong?

I dont want a flame war, I just want to explore Islam and Transsexualism...and figured it would be best to talk to someone who was Muslim. Straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.

The Commander
DIA

You were right, but maybe I was wrong.

No problem. Looking at some of the responses I've gotten, I think I didn't exactly phrase the question correctly. I can see how on this board its easy to believe anyone posing a fairly controversial question is looking to start a flame war.

The Commander

DIA

[johnson1]

Im a lurker here.

But no, islam itself doesnt really have rules on transexualism. Technically i would think its ok, because transexuals aren't always going to be homosexuals, which is forbidden by pretty much any of the well known religions.

The other thing is about body mutilation, not mutilation in our sense, but cosmetic surgery isn't really allowed, unless its to please your spouse i think. And things like tatoos etc. are forbidden, since its alteration of what god intended you to look like (which i guess cosmetic surgery goes under the same category).

But im not entirely certain, oh and thanks to the guy who gave me that article about TS iran.

[peggygee]

On another forum (tgirl.com) I have tendered a great deal of information
on the the topic of Islam and transgenderism.

On this forum here are some of my previous postings.

Here are articles discussing Islam and transsexualism:

A fatwa for transsexuals
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/07/28/iran_transsexuals/index.html

Sexuality, gender & Islam
http://www.safraproject.org/sgi-genderidentity.htm

Transsexuality In Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran

A Muslim TS Group
http://groups.msn.com/TheSisterhood/transgenderinislam.msnw

[peggygee]

Iran allows sex reassignment surgery but hang homosexuals. This is a perfect example that some religious people consider that it is better to be a transsexual if you are going to be with a guy.

Fatwas allowing SRS have been issued in a number of Isamic countries,
including Iran, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, etc.

A fatwa is a legal opinion or ruling issued by an Islamic scholar, judge
or mufti. It will be based upon the Qur'an, Sunnah and Islamic
Shari'ah. The Shari'ah is the revealed and the canonical laws
of the religion of Islam.

In Malaysia, the dominant sect of Islam is Sunni, with Shāfi‘ī
madhab (شافعي) being the governing school guiding regulations. Of the four
schools of fiqh, or religious law the Shāfi‘ī school
is the most conservative.

However it is should be pointed out that there are indeed transsexuals in
the Muslim world. The arabic word for transsexual is "mukhannath",
(Arabic مخنثون ") and their xistence has been reported in the Quaran.

[peggygee]

Transgenders clearly had a place in early muslim society:

Every action that was done by our noble Prophet (s.a.s.), every advice and every order from him included an inherent balance, an undescribeable harmony. When he cursed the (wrongdoing) poets and musicians with their lewd songs and their sinful rhymes he also offered to them a better place in the great scheme of the world.

The mukhannathun, likewise, were given a better place in society than the one they had occupied before. The reports of early scholars tell about this. But to understand this special and new place we first have to look at the general nature of gender in Islam. Although there are exceptions - intersexuals and transgenders - the two basic genders in Islam are man and woman. These genders both have their segregated places and realms in society.

No one is confined by force to these realms, they just give the person in question a special meaning that he/she does not have outside this realm. Especially the private realm of women is seen as sacred, it is her "kingdom" (or better "queendom") in which the holiness of the womb transcends into the open space, as if it were a temple of God (and indeed, muslims use the same word - harem or haram - for the private realm of the women and the two holiest mosques in Makkah and Madinah).

Like any sanctuary this sacred space is governed by certain rules and regulations which are mentioned in the Holy Qur`an:

" And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees who lack the defining skills of men (or, alternatively: who lack male desires etc.) , or the children who have not reached puberty. [...........] " (Surah 24:31) [by the way: In other verses men are adviced to subdue their eyes and maintain their chastity, as well. Islam does not oppress women]

In this context, the phrase "servants who lack the defining skills of men" or "who lack male desires" is quite interesting. Which "male borns" who were not related to them were allowed to see the most private parts of women ? In modern Qur`an interpretation we will quite often find references to "old men who lost their drive" or even "servants who would not act according to their drive because of fear of their master". How strange, should one advice women to show their private parts in front of unrelated men, just because they are old or in fear?

Would this be in any way reasonable? Early scholars were quite sure about the meaning of the above mentioned phrase. They clearly attributed it to the mukhannathun, the male to female transgenders.

Ibn `Abd al-Barr said, probably in reference to the two types of mukhannath also mentioned by An-Nawawi : "The mukhannath is not only the one who is known to be promiscuous. The mukhannath is (also?) the one who looks so much like a woman physically that he resembles women in his softness, speech, appearance, accent and thinking. If he is like this, he would have no desire for women and he would not notice anything about them. This is one of those who have no interest in women who were permitted to enter upon women." (Al-Mughni, 7/463; al Sharh al Kabeer `ala Matan al Muqni ´, 7/347 - 348)

And Ibn Qudaamah mentioned : "[...] or a mukhannath who feels no desire (towards women) , the ruling that applies to such a "man" is the same as the ruling that applies to close relatives (mahram) regarding looking at women, because Allah says (the scholar cites Surah 24:31)."

And also Ibn `Abbaas said, regarding the phrase from Surah 24:31,: "This is the one of whom women do not feel shy. This is the mukhannath who is without male potence."

Early muslims agreed on the fact that the mukhannatheen were those who could transcend the sacred boundaries of the two gender realms, they could walk in between, entering the "queendom" of sacred womanhood like a close relative or a fellow woman could do. Sometimes there was a case of a "fake mukhannath" or a "mukhannath" who could still have a "drive for women", as it is mentioned by Ibn `Abd al-Barr (refering to a well known report by A`isha, the Prophet`s wife): "Do you not see that the Prophet (s.a.s.) did not prevent that mukhannath from entering upon his wives [whose realm was even more sacred than that of ordinary women] at first, but when he heard him describing the daughter of Ghaylaan and realized that he knew about women, he commanded that he should be kept away."

However, in the regular case of a male to female transgender not openly declaring any leanings towards women, the mukhannathun were allowed by Allah and his noble Prophet to enter freely the "harem".

That way they fulfilled an important social function; they served as servants or employees in the houses of noble muslims and were an important link between the sacred realm of women and the profane realm of men. Indeed, they were the guardians of the "harem"! The reports from earlier times show us that they were the onlyones who could move freely in every area. They could enter the "harem" as well as the "men only" parts of the mosque. Muhammad (s.a.s.) had given them a very special position in society, elevating them to a special freedom.

However, because of the harmonious and just nature of the Islamic Law they had to give a price for this; no one is favoured before God, neither male man, nor female woman, nor male born woman (mukhannath): The mukhannathun were not supposed to have families, a major self-defining term in muslim culture, and there were certain restrictions regarding them in traditional law etc.

But still, their existence was crucial in early muslim society. E.g. they were the perfect servants to arrange marriages, being messengers between the worlds of men and women. They were always seen as ideal employees, overlooking all household affairs with the seriousness that their lack of a family gave them.

Unfortunately, male mistrust arose after the death of noble Prophet Muhammad (s.a.s.). The fear from "fake mukhannathun" who could "hurt the virtue of women" was so strong that a mukhannath had to be castrated to be a loyal household servant. In the 8th century A.C. the Khalifah Sulayman ordered the castration of all the mukhannathun of Makkah, although Muhammad (s.a.s.) did severely speak against "creating eunuchs"!

However, some of the mukhannathun obviously accepted castration as some kind of a "sex change operation", taking from them the male parts that they never wanted (that is how today`s Indian and Pakistani hijras understand "becoming an eunuch", too)

If accepted or not, even after the "importation" of castration the mukhannathun were still respected . Their fame of being "guardians of sacred boundaries" even gave them the privilege to guard not only the "harem" of women, but also the most sacred "harem" in Makkah and the one in Madinah. From the 12th century on it is reported that the "eunuchs" were the dignified guardians of the grave of the noble Prophet Muhammad, a custom that held on until the end of the Ottoman rule over the two sacred cities. Some sources indicate a highly organized society of "mukhannath eunuch guards" existing in Makkah and Madinah in the past, a society that had close "kinship ties" with the hijra - society in India and which probably included transgenders and intersexuals from all over the muslim world.

Sadly, the high place of the mukhannathun in muslim society did not survive the colonial times. Only in partly independent muslim principalities like the ones of Hyderabad or Oudh (Lucknow) in India their dignity could be kept to a certain degree.

In the name of the noble Prophet Muhammad who respected transgenders, I ask the muslim ummah to remember the high esteem in which they once held us, and I ask my transgendered brothers and sisters in Islam to reclaim and reenact the heritage that Allah has given but which was unjustly taken away from us!

[odelay24]

BTW, which countries have the most transsexuals? Thailand which is mostly buddhist. Next on the list? Iran with 20,000 and people say up to 150,000. Yup interesting. You're going to like the reason. The ayatollah, like lots of guys who reach the top of the heap in their religious professions (lots of pastors and teg haggert for example), was apparently just a regular guy. He made up the laws which said that homosexuality for men is punishable by death for the first infraction. But get this, if women did it, they would need to get caught 3 times for it to be death worthy. And transsexuals? LEGAL. lol. These things almost humanize muslims as regular people though so youll never hear about it in american news.

That statement is so incorrect you have no idea.

The Ayatollah is just 'a regular guy', he's as much a spiritual expert as any bishop. The rules he and his group come up with a sorted out through exhaustive study of the Qu'ran. The reason that transexuality is permitted is because the Qu'ran makes no mention of transexuals, and therefore the Ayatollah cannot rule that transexuality is against the Islamic faith.

[peggygee]

Mak Nyahs (Male Transsexuals) in Malaysia: The Influence of Culture and Religion on their Identity1

By Yik Koon Teh

Citation: Teh, Y. K. (2001) Mak Nyahs (Male Transsexuals) in Malaysia: The Influence of Culture and Religion on their Identity. IJT 5,3, http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtvo05no03_04.htm

Abstract
Keywords
Introduction
Method
Results
Conclusion
Education and Action Plans
References
Abstract

This paper discusses a study of male transsexuals in Malaysia, known locally as mak nyahs. This detailed study, funded by the Ministry of Science, Technology and Environment, involved the use of questionnaires and interviews. The questionnaire for the mak nyahs, which consisted of 142 questions, was divided into three parts: a) the social aspect; b) HIV/AIDS knowledge; and c) related health issues. In addition to questionnaires, interviews were carried out with some of the mak nyahs as well as with the relevant authorities.

This paper looks into the social aspect of transsexualism in Malaysia. The questions in this section of the questionnaire were derived from studies undertaken in the West. The writer found that transsexuals in Malaysia have many characteristics similar to those from other parts of the world. However, the identity of the mak nyahs in Malaysia is influenced by cultural and religious factors. The definition and identity of male transsexuals in Malaysia may differ in some ways from those in other parts of the world.



Keywords: transsexuals, mak nyahs, Malaysia, culture, religion, identity.



Introduction

In Malaysia, the medical profession and the academic community generally accept the definition of transsexuals as that espoused by Western scholars. The term ‘transsexuals’ can refer to both male transsexuals, that is males who want to be females in every aspect, and female transsexuals, that is females who want to be males in every aspect. Transsexuals therefore differ from transvestites who are males who cross-dress as females. The transsexual community in Malaysia uses the term ‘transsexual’, because the ultimate goal of the majority of them is a sex change operation or sex reassignment surgery. However, in Malaysia, ‘transsexuals’ generally refer to male transsexuals, although there are also female transsexuals around (Teh, 1998: 169). The number of female transsexuals is, however, very small compared to male transsexuals (Khairuddin et al., 1987). The local term for male transsexuals is mak nyah (mak meaning mother). This term refers to those who have not undergone sex change operations as well as to those who have (Teh, 1998: 169). This term is accepted by male transsexuals in Malaysia. In fact, it was coined by the male transsexual community in 1987 when they tried to set up a society but were denied by the Registrar of Societies. The term, mak nyahs, was considered preferable to terms like pondan or bapok (Teh, 1998: 169), which generally refer to men who are effeminate and, therefore, could also include homosexuals. As for the female transsexuals, they are sometimes known as pak nyah(pak meaning father) or they are usually known as ‘tomboys’ (Teh, 1998: 169). Another term for female transsexuals is abang – meaning brother or man. They are less noticeable than the male transsexuals who cross-dress, since jeans and T-shirts are part of the female attire in Malaysia.

In Malaysia, mak nyahs are labelled as sexual deviants and are generally shunned by society. It has been estimated by IKHLAS (Pink Triangle), a non-governmental organisation in Malaysia which gives HIV/AIDS awareness information to mak nyahs, that there are about 10,000 mak nyahs in the country (Teh, 1998: 169). About 70% to 80% are Malay; the rest are made up of Chinese, Indian and other minority ethnic groups. Malays make up 50.7% of the total population; the Chinese, the Indians and other minority ethnic groups make up 27.5%, 7.8% and 14% respectively (Department of Statistics Malaysia, 1995). Islam is the religion of the Malay population and is the official religion of Malaysia. The majority of mak nyahs are Muslim.

In Islam, gender can be divided into four groups: male; female; khunsa; and mukhannis or mukhannas (Abdul Aziz, 1987). Khunsa are basically hermaphrodites. Mukhannis and mukhannas are males whose behaviour is similar to that of females. Mukhannis want a gender identity that is different from that with which they were born. They loathe their male identity and want to be female. In contrast, a mukhannas is one who is effeminate, but does not want to change sex (Wan Azmi, 1991: 6). Islam permits khunsa (hermaphrodites) to undergo a sex change operation so that the person can be either a female or a male. However, Islam forbids a mukhannis or mukhannas who are males to behave like females in terms of cross-dressing, wearing make-up, injecting hormones to enlarge their breasts, and undergoing sex change operations.

In 1983, the Conference of Rulers in Malaysia decided that a fatwa prohibiting sex change operations, should be imposed on all Muslims, However, it agreed that, in the case of a hermaphrodite, such surgery is permitted. Cross-dressing is also prohibited. In 1969, Karim pointed out that in the Islamic teaching, "Prophet Muhammad cursed the males who appear like females and vice-versa" and "the prophet cursed the man who puts on the dress of a woman and the woman who puts on the dress of a man" (Khairuddin et al., 1987). Thus, Muslim mak nyahs are considered to violate the tenets of Islam, and consequently are essentially non-entities in Malaysian society.

Non-Muslim mak nyahs are mainly Buddhists, Christians or Hindus. They are generally allowed to be mak nyahs, although their religion may not allow it. This is because there are no official religious rulings, as there are among Muslims, to enforce the prohibition. Occasionally, they are caught by the police for cross-dressing, and charged with indecent behaviour under section 21 of the Minor Offences Act 1955 (Teh, 1998: 179).

The purpose of this paper is to show that although transsexuals in Malaysia have similar characteristics to transsexuals in other parts of the world, they are influenced to a large extent by their culture and religion. The paper discusses the characteristics of transsexuals in Malaysia in order to show that their characteristics are similar to those from other parts of the world, as observed by other researchers. The paper highlights the strong influence of the Islamic religion and culture on Malaysian transsexuals, especially on their perceptions towards a sex change operation.



Method

The sample consisted of 507 mak nyahs (male transsexuals). This is approximately 5% of the estimated population of mak nyahs. As there is no information on the breakdown, by race, age or number, of mak nyahs across the 13 states in Malaysia, the respondents were drawn from the eight states where the mak nyahs usually live (as estimated by IKHLAS). The mak nyahs usually live in the town centre of the eight states for job purposes. The majority of the respondents were Malays (86%). Chinese, Indians and others made up 5%, 4% and 3% respectively of the total number of respondents.

The religious affiliation of the respondents was 88% Islam, 5% Christian, 3% Buddhist, and 3% Hindu. Two of the respondents were non-believers and one respondent belonged to a religion other than those listed.

The majority of the respondents had secondary school education (74%). Only 3% had attended an institute of higher learning.

About half of the respondents (54%) were sex workers. Many of the respondents (73%) had an income of less than RM1,000 (approx. US$263) per month. About 30% of them lived below or around the poverty line of RM450 (approx. US$11.

All the 507 transsexual respondents were asked the meaning of the term mak nyah. The most popular answer given was "Men who look like women, and are soft and feminine" (74%) followed by "Men who dress up as women" (17%). All the respondents had given themselves female names and would rather be known by these names.



Results

The majority of the respondents (about 72%) had thought that they were female when they were small. About 23% had thought that they were both male and female when they were small. Sixty-eight per cent reported that they had played only with female toys, 29% played with both male and female toys, and 3% played with only male toys. Eighty-two per cent reported that when they were small they had played the female role, 17% played both male and female roles and only 1% had played the male role. About 68% had only girls as their childhood playmates, 31% had both female and male playmates, while just 1% had only male playmates. Many of the respondents (about 52 %) who had felt that they were female when small also played with only female toys and adopted the female role when playing.

Most of the respondents (81%) came from ‘big’ families – more than three children. In their families, there were both male and female children. The respondents said that they had both male and female role models in the family, and were not influenced by their sisters, as is generally believed by the Malaysian public.

About a third of the respondents (36%) said that they had other family members who were like them (mak nyahs) from both the father’s side and the mother’s side (see Table 1).



Table 1. Those who have relatives who are like you, who are they?

Frequency



Valid %

Older brother

21

11.7

Uncle from father’s side

24

13.4

Uncle from mother’s side

43

24.0

Cousin from father’s side

41

22.9

Cousin from mother’s side

19

10.6

Relative from father’s side

15

8.4

Relative from mother’s side

6

3.4

Others

10

5.6

Total

179

100



Most of the respondents came from relatively happy families when they were small (84%) while only 15% said that they grew up in families with problems.

The majority of the respondents (62%) had enjoyed doing a combination of the household chores when they were young. The most popular household chore among the respondents was tidying the house, followed by cooking, washing, sewing, and gardening.

Cross-dressing and body shape

Most of the respondents started cross-dressing between the ages of 11 to 20 years old. They generally cross-dressed at home or in the house of another mak nyah friend. The moral support they received when they started cross-dressing came mainly from their mak nyah friends (42%). Only 16% received moral support from family members, of which their mothers seemed to give them the most support. This dispels the Malaysian myth that people become mak nyahs because they were encouraged by family members, particularly mothers, to cross-dress when small.

At the time of the study, only 62% of the respondents cross-dressed full time. Nevertheless, the majority of them said that having breasts and a body shape like women were important to them. They reported that the more that they cross-dressed, the more they felt that having breasts and a body shape like women were important to them.

Sixty-three per cent of the sample took hormones. This figure includes those who said that having breasts and a body shape like women were not important to them. Hormones were taken to enlarge their breasts, to have a smooth complexion, to reduce body and facial hair and penile erection.

When asked how they felt about their male organ, more than half of the respondents (68%) accepted it, while only 26% hated it and wished to have it removed. Other perceptions of their penis included accepting it as given by fate, feeling embarrassed by it, confused, feeling strange, sad, and accepting it as"another piece of flesh". One respondent hated it, but would not have an operation to remove it.

Only 19 of the 507 respondents in the study (4%) had had a sex change operation. The two main reasons given by the majority for not having the operation done were:

They could only have the operation performed overseas, usually in Thailand or Singapore, as the fatwa had prohibited such operations being carried out on Muslim transsexuals in Malaysia. It would be very costly to have it done overseas, and most of them could not afford the cost. The non-Muslim mak nyahs could have the operation in Malaysia but for the fact that there is no trained surgeon in this area. Therefore, they too would have to go overseas to have it done.
Many of the Muslim respondents had promised their parents, especially their mothers, who had accepted them as mak nyahs, that, in return, they would not undergo the operation. This was because, if they had undergone the sex change operation, it would pose a problem for them to be buried as a male or female according to the Muslim rites. The Muslim burial rites state that only a female can bathe the body of another female – this would not include the mak nyahs even though they may had undergone the sex change operation. Mak nyahs with the sex-changed female organ could also not be bathed by a male.
Religion is the main factor that discourages Muslim mak nyahs from having the sex change operation. This could also be the reason why many of the respondents could accept their penis. Financial constraints stopped the non-Muslim mak nyahs from having the operation. It also appears that non-Muslim mak nyahs have fewer problems with their family members compared to their Muslim counterparts.

Relationship with males

The majority of the respondents (about 97%) had liked men when they were small and had had a male as their first date. They also had had a male as their first sexual partner. Many of the respondents had had their first sexual encounter early in life (see Table 2).



Table 2. How old were you when you first had a sexual relationship?

Frequency



Valid %

10 years and below

65

13.2

11 to 15 years

264

53.5

16 years and above

164

33.3

Total

493

100.00

Missing

14



507





At the time of the study, 69% of the respondents had boyfriends. Of those who had a partner, 60% said that their relationship was similar to that of a married couple; 35% said that they were like boyfriend and girlfriend; and 3% said that they were like a kept woman or mistress. Most of the respondents (87%) said that they would like to get married to a man in the future if their religion permitted them to do so, while only 7% said that they would not.

Relationship with females

Only 20 respondents had ever been attracted to a girl. Eighteen of these respondents had had sex with a girl. About 96% of the respondents had never been attracted to a girl, but out of this group, nine of them had had sex with a girl. This could be due to the fact that these respondents might not have realised, or totally accepted, their transsexual identity at that time. Of those who had had a sexual relationship with a female, six said that they had had no feeling, four said that they had enjoyed it, three said that it was for fun, one said that it was horrible and repulsive, and one said that it was embarrassing. The relationship with the females finally ended for a number of reasons: because they liked other men; they found a boyfriend; they felt that they were deceiving her; they did not find the relationship enjoyable; and they divorced or broke up.

Dreams and sexual fantasies

The majority of the respondents (92%) dreamt and saw themselves in their sexual fantasies as female and their partner as male.

Sexual practices

The study shows that the majority of the respondents would not allow their boyfriends to masturbate them (76%) or to do oral sex on them (88%). They also would not do anal sex on their boyfriend (93%) or on other people (66%). However, some respondents allowed other people to masturbate them (53%) or do oral sex on them (60%). Some also penetrated other people (34%). The reason given by these respondents was that their clients wanted them to do so.

More than half of the respondents did masturbate themselves (58%). The percentage of respondents who allowed their boyfriends to masturbate them and to do oral sex on them was higher for those who masturbated themselves compared to those who did not masturbate themselves.

Personal happiness

Of the total number of respondents, 71% of the respondents felt that they did not have any conflict with their religion while 29% felt that they had.

78% of respondents who had not undergone a sex change operation said that they would have the surgery if their religion permitted it, while 22% said that they would not do so even if their religion permitted.

About 89% of the respondents said that they were happy even though they had not undergone the sex change operation. As explained earlier, most of the respondents in this group said that they had promised their parents, for religious reasons, that they would not undergo the operation in return for their acceptance of their transsexual status. The respondents added that that they had accepted, since they were small, that their religion does not permit them to have the sex change operation. This also explains why a large number of them had accepted their penis and did not hate it.

Although 89% of the respondents said that they were happy not to have the sex change operation, about half of the respondents (51%) said that they would be happier if they had the operation. These respondents would undergo the operation if their religion permitted. Overall, 78% of the respondents would undergo the operation if their religion permitted them to do so. It seemed that the respondents’ decision to have the operation or not was affected by their religion, particularly if they were Muslims. As for those who said they would not be happy if they did not have the operation, 92% said that they would undergo the operation if their religion permitted.

About 93% of all the respondents said that they would like to marry if their religion permitted them to do so. The majority of those who wanted to have the operation (97%) would also want to get married if their religion permitted. The majority of them (about 87%) would opt for an operation if their religion permitted them to do so. About a third of the respondents (36%) hated their own penis.

A third of the respondents (33%) had had doubts at some stage as to whether they wanted to be women. However, 88% of the respondents said that they would still continue as mak nyahs for the rest of their lives.

Out of the total number of respondents, about 14% (n=65) had, at some stage, tried to commit suicide.

Most of the respondents (about 95%) said that they felt happier after they came out as mak nyahs, even though they might be shunned by their family members or society.

Almost all of the respondents used the female public toilets. However, about 24 % reported that they did not mind using male toilets. The reasons given for those who were uncomfortable using male public toilets, were that they were women; they were embarrassed; they were teased by other people; they were frightened; the toilets were dirty; and they would be sexually aroused.

Police and the Islamic religious authority

In Malaysia, mak nyahs can be charged with indecent behaviour, which includes cross-dressing, under Section 21 of the Minor Offences Act 1955. Under this section, they can be fined RM25 to RM50 (approximately US$6.60 to US$13.20). The term ‘indecent behaviour’ has not been defined in the Act, and therefore, it is up to the discretion of the police to determine what constitutes ‘indecent’ behaviour. If the mak nyahs caught by the police are Muslims, they can be sent to the Syariah department to be charged at the Syariah Court for offences against the Islamic law. The penalty incurred could be a fine of between RM800 to RM3,000 (approximately US$210.50 to US$789.50) or imprisonment or both. The Islamic religious authority, like the police, can also carry out raids among the Muslim community to identify wrongdoing against Islam.

About half of the respondents in this study (55%) had been caught by the police at some time. The majority (75%) had been caught on three or fewer occasions. However, 17% had been caught between four and six times, 3% were caught between seven and nine times, and 5% had been caught ten times or more. The main reasons that they had been caught by the police seemed to be for cross-dressing (33%), indecent dressing (18%), prostitution (16%), a drug test, (13%), during a police raid or operation (10%), and loitering late at night (6%).

When they were taken to the police station, 71% had been stripped of their women’s clothing in front of other people, and 10% said that they were forced to wear men's clothes. Nearly half (47%) said that they were shamed in front of other people, 46% said that they were jeered at or discriminated against, and 9% said that they were beaten up. Other problems that they faced when they were at the police station were that they were asked to change religion, invited to have sex, asked to show their breasts and private parts, condemned and teased, had their hair cut short. The point was also made that the police seemed to assume that they were people with loose morals and did not treat them humanely.

About 28% of the respondents said that they had been caught by the Islamic religious authority. Almost all of this group (96%) reported that they had been caught on three or fewer occasions: just 3% had been caught between four and six times, and 1% had been caught ten times or more. The main reasons that they were caught by the Islamic authority were for cross-dressing (50%), prostitution (32%), indecent behaviour (7%), during a police raid or operation (5%), loitering (5%), and having a beauty contest (3%).

The complaints that the respondents made regarding the Islamic authority were similar to those made regarding the police. In addition, they were advised and counselled, and they had photographs taken of them.

At the Syariah Court, 55% of this group of respondents were charged with cross-dressing. About 30% were charged with indecent behaviour, 9% were charged with a drug offence, and 6% were charged with prostitution. The majority (93%) of those who had been caught by the police and/or the Islamic authorities said that they would not stop cross-dressing, while only 7% said that they would.

In addition to the research carried out among the mak nyahs themselves, interviews were also carried out with the authorities from different religious groups. From these it could be seen that, in Malaysia, transsexualism is not acceptable to Islam and Christianity, while Buddhism and Hinduism could accept the phenomena. However, since Islam is the official religion it is the only religion in Malaysia that has official religious rulings against some of the practices of the transsexuals. As for the non-Muslim transsexuals, even though they are not under formal constraints from their religion, they are still not accepted in society as the police can carry out raids on them and arrest them for ‘indecent behaviour’.



Conclusion

Mak nyahs in Malaysia basically share the same characteristics as transsexuals in other parts of the world (Kuiper and Cohen-Kettenis, 1988; Johnson and Hunt, 1990; Leavitt and Berger, 1990; Tsoi, 1990; Coleman et al., 1992; Doorn et al., 1994). Research has shown that the transsexual phenomenon cannot be adequately explained by social factors. Likewise, this research could not pinpoint any specific causal social factor or factors. Transsexualism could be a more complex phenomenon that needs the explanation of biological and environmental factors as well as social factors.



Muslim transsexuals in Malaysia, who form the majority in the transsexual community, share similar characteristics to transsexuals in other parts of the world. However, due to their religious beliefs many of them have accepted the fact that they are not allowed to have the sex change operation. Islam does not accept transsexualism, as stated in the Hadith. For example, the Hadith in Sahih Bukhari (Vol. 7, Bk. 72, No. 774) stated that:

Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:


The Prophet cursed effeminate men and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses."


The Hadith in Sunan Abu-Dawud, (Bk. 32, No. 4087) stated that:
Narrated Abu Hurayrah:


The Apostle of Allah cursed the man who dressed like a woman and the woman who dressed like a man.


Muslim mak nyahs are essentially non-entities in Malaysian society, and theyhave been brought up with this belief. Although many of the Muslim mak nyahs felt that they would be happy or happier if they underwent the sex change operation, they are reluctant to do so. They believe that if they have the sex change operation, nobody will carry out the burial rites for them when they die, as they are not considered as females and neither are they accepted as males. Some even believe that their soul will float aimlessly when they die if they have the operation because their bodies will not be what God originally gave them. As Islam is the official religion in Malaysia, their beliefs are substantiated by the enforcement of the religious edicts by the police and the Islamic authority. As explained earlier, the mak nyahs can be charged for indecent behaviour, which includes cross-dressing or behaving like a female, under the Minor Offences Act 1955 or under the Syariah Law. Although this has not discouraged the mak nyahs from cross-dressing, many would not have the sex change operation for fear of their religion. This also explains why many of them have accepted having a penis.

It was found that some of the older and elderly Muslim mak nyahs have reverted back to wearing male clothing even though they cross-dressed full time when they were younger. When asked why they did so, they said that it was because they wanted to be buried as a Muslim male when they die, since Islam does not recognise transsexuals even though they may have undergone the sex change operation. However, they revealed that, at heart, they still felt like a woman.

Muslim mak nyahs are influenced to a large extent by their religion. To many of them, cross-dressing and the deep feeling that they are female are enough for them to have the identity of transsexuals. They have accepted that they are transsexuals who, unable to have the sex change operation, will retain a penis, even though this is not part of the female identity.

As for the non-Muslim mak nyahs, they share similar transsexual characteristics to their Muslim counterparts. Since there are no official restrictions imposed on them, as there are on their Muslim counterparts, many do lead the life they want, including going for the sex change operation if they can afford it, though their religion may not accept transsexualism. They also have fewer problems with their family members compared to their Muslim counterparts. Occasionally, they are caught by the police during their raids for indecent behaviour under the Minor Offences Act 1955. This does not deter them from cross-dressing or going for the sex change operation.

In conclusion, it can be said that mak nyahs who are Muslim, who form the majority of the transsexual population in Malaysia, are generally influenced by their culture and religion, which shape their identity. They consider themselves to be transsexuals who have accepted that they are female at heart, but who may not go for the sex-change operation and do not mind the presence of their penis.



Education and Action Plans

As this research was being carried out, other practical projects were being implemented to help the transsexual community. Using part of the research funds, the writer organised a four-day seminar to train about 100 transsexuals as peer educators. This was the first national transsexual seminar in Malaysia. The writer had the collaboration of her co-researcher and the organisation, IKHLAS. The seminar was intended to empower and give awareness to transsexuals on health issues related to them, including HIV/AIDS awareness. It was also intended to make them aware of their legal, religious and social position in society, and how they could help themselves to improve their living standard, since many of them were sex workers. Part of the findings of the research was also conveyed to them. Before choosing the venue for the seminar, an informal discussion with the representatives from the Islamic Department of each state in Malaysia was carried out to obtain their consent for holding the event, and their co-operation in not raiding the seminar venue, since the Islamic religion does not recognise transsexuals. Representatives from some states did not turn up. Eventually, it was decided that Cameron Highlands would be the best place to hold the seminar due to its strategic location and also the co-operation from the Pahang Islamic department. As the seminar was being funded with the Ministry of Science, Technology and Environment research grant, the police and Islamic religious authority co-operated and did not interfere although they did turn up to observe.

Some of the research funds were used to organise a one-day dialogue session between the representatives of the mak nyah community, representatives from the police headquarters, the Islamic religious authority and the social welfare department, in order to clear up misunderstandings between them. The session also paved the way for more open communication between the relevant groups in future. After the dialogue session had taken place, the police representative invited the lawyers, who voluntarily represented the transsexuals and personnel from IKHLAS, to his office for further discussion. A follow-up to the first dialogue session was held to further improve the relationship between the transsexuals, and the police and Islamic authorities. This was also funded from the research grant.

The research has generated interest from the local newspapers and magazines. They have reported favourably on the transsexual community. Findings from this research have been used to create awareness among the Malaysian people of the transsexual phenomenon. Forums have been organised by local non-governmental organisations to highlight the issue on sexuality that has always been a taboo subject in Malaysia.

With the remaining research funds, workshops were organised to train ‘guides’ to give guidance to the transsexual community in legal, religious, social, psychological and health issues, with the collaboration of personnel from the Ministry of National Unity and Social Development, and IKHLAS. It is hoped that the Ministry will provide funding and carry out projects in the future to help the transsexual community.

The transsexual phenomenon has also attracted the attention of the Minister of Women and Family affairs, and she has indicated that she will look into the plight of the transsexual community.

With these education and action plans, it is hoped that transsexuals in Malaysia will be accepted like other citizens in Malaysia, without any discrimination and prejudice.



Footnote

Part of this paper was presented at the Fourth International Congress on Cross-Dressing, Sex and Gender Issues, The Renaissance Transgender Association, Philadelphia, 5-8 October 2000.
References

Abdul Aziz and Haji Hanafi (1987) Islam Sebagai Ad-Din. Unpublished paper presented at the Seminar mak nyah ke arah menentukan identiti dan status mak nyah dalam masyarakat. Law Faculty, Universiti Malaya.

Coleman, E., Colgan, P., and Gooren, L. (1992) Male cross-gender behavior in Myanmmar (Burma): a description of the Acault. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 21(3): 313-321.

Department of Statistics Malaysia (1995) General Report of the Population Census, 1991, 1.

Doorn, C.D., Poortinga, J., and Verschoor, A.M. (1994) Cross-gender identity in transvestites and male transsexuals. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 23(2): 185-201.

Johnson, S.L. and Hunt, D.D. (1990) The relationship of male transsexual typology to psychosocial adjustment. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 19(4): 349-359.

Khairuddin, Y., Low, W.Y., and Wong, Y.L. (1987) Social and health review of transsexuals. Unpublished paper presented at the Seminar mak nyah ke arah menentukan identiti dan status mak nyah dalam masyarakat. Law Faculty, Universiti Malaya.

Kuiper, B. and Cohen-Kettenis, P. (198 Sex reassignment surgery: a study of 141 Dutch transsexuals. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 17(5): 439-457.

Leavitt, F. and Berger, J.C. (1990) Clinical patterns among male transsexual candidates with erotic interest in males. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 19(5): 491-504.

Teh, Yik Koon (199 Understanding the problems of mak nyahs (male transsexuals) in Malaysia. South East Asia Research, 6(2) July: 165-180.

Tsoi, W.F. (1990) Developmental profile of 200 male and 100 female transsexuals in Singapore. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 19(6): 595-605.

Wan Azmi Ramli (1991) Dilema Mak Nyah: Suatu Illusi, Kuala Lumpur: Utusan Publications.

Correspondence to Yik Koon Teh (tykoon@uum.edu.my)

[jimbobw2]

They have also been known to kill their children and stone their women. For the most insane reasons.

That's the biggest generalisation I've heard here in a while. Is that your idea of a stereotype Muslim? Someone who stones their women and kills their children?

I'm assuming you're talking about executions in which case the West is just as guilty. USA still has the Death Penalty although it's nowhere near as brutal as the Middle East.

No it is not

What about Aqsa Parve in canada
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=169790

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2007/12/11/jonathan-kay-on-the-death-of-aqsa-parvez.aspx

there are plenty more

http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

Muslim Cleric backs exicution of gays

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/226/226549_muslim_cleric_backs_execution_of_gays.html

More
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/25/news/thailand.php#end_main

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

90% of the worlds 1.2 billion mulims are moderate. Thats a really high number unless you look at the the number who are radical

120,000,000 radical muslims

40% of the muslims in the UK want Sharia law.

These radicals openly support killing gays, women who shame them, hide their women under a cloak, and consider transexuals suffering from an "illness".

90 % of the muslims = good; 10% of the muslims = bad. Fear the 10%


But then again, you know more than me :roll:

[Ibrar]

I am a muslim. Not an altogether great one, but I am one nonetheless.
Personally, I am very liberal. i do not agree with hardliners on a lot of things. My family is conservative, and a lot of the opinions I possess wouldn't sit too well with them, so I keep it all to myself! lol
I wouldn't say I identify myself by my religion, at least not now. But I still find the whole "tar people with the same brush" kinda viewpoint to be offensive. We don't all kill children or condone violence against homosexuals and transgendered people.
I prefer to judge people on their individual merits. It doesn't matter to me what faith you are, or the colour of your skin and such like... so long as you aren't rude, you're alright by me!
And how do I reconcile being someone who is interested in TS ladies and still be a muslim? Simple, I couldn't care less. I'll like what I like, and I'll do what I'll do. This is what I meant by me not being a good muslim! lol
And yes, I drink and so on. I have disconnected myself with my religion in a sense, but I still understand what it's about.
I am sorry if this is all rambling, but I felt inclined to post in this thread, and share my opinion. Thanks :)

[the commander]

Peggygee,

Thank you very much for the mountain of information you have provided. It is exactly the kind of information and discussion I was looking for when I started this thread. I'm going to delve into the many links you provided and get back to you later with any questions I might have.

Thanks again!

The Commander
DIA

[peggygee]

Peggygee,

Thank you very much for the mountain of information you have provided. It is exactly the kind of information and discussion I was looking for when I started this thread. I'm going to delve into the many links you provided and get back to you later with any questions I might have.

Thanks again!

The Commander
DIA

Glad I could be helpful. :wink:

Islam, and transgenderism, seperately and collectively are both
topics about which a great deal of misinformation is disseminated.

It is my hope that I can play a small part in painting an accurate picture.

[TheShyGuy]

They have also been known to kill their children and stone their women. For the most insane reasons.

That's the biggest generalisation I've heard here in a while. Is that your idea of a stereotype Muslim? Someone who stones their women and kills their children?

I'm assuming you're talking about executions in which case the West is just as guilty. USA still has the Death Penalty although it's nowhere near as brutal as the Middle East.

No it is not

What about Aqsa Parve in canada
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=169790

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2007/12/11/jonathan-kay-on-the-death-of-aqsa-parvez.aspx

there are plenty more

http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

Muslim Cleric backs exicution of gays

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/226/226549_muslim_cleric_backs_execution_of_gays.html

More
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/25/news/thailand.php#end_main

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

90% of the worlds 1.2 billion mulims are moderate. Thats a really high number unless you look at the the number who are radical

120,000,000 radical muslims

40% of the muslims in the UK want Sharia law.

These radicals openly support killing gays, women who shame them, hide their women under a cloak, and consider transexuals suffering from an "illness".

90 % of the muslims = good; 10% of the muslims = bad. Fear the 10%


But then again, you know more than me :roll:

I could also list a hundred articles about hardcore christians that are also racist, homophobic, and want to kill all muslims. That 40% number is also a number you pulled out of somewhere dark. completely ridiculous.

[TheShyGuy]

BTW, which countries have the most transsexuals? Thailand which is mostly buddhist. Next on the list? Iran with 20,000 and people say up to 150,000. Yup interesting. You're going to like the reason. The ayatollah, like lots of guys who reach the top of the heap in their religious professions (lots of pastors and teg haggert for example), was apparently just a regular guy. He made up the laws which said that homosexuality for men is punishable by death for the first infraction. But get this, if women did it, they would need to get caught 3 times for it to be death worthy. And transsexuals? LEGAL. lol. These things almost humanize muslims as regular people though so youll never hear about it in american news.

In response to another post of yours....I didn't mean to imply that all other religions were kosher with T-grrls except Islam. But you can't deny that in general countries that are predominantly Muslim tend to be more conservative than western countries, especially regarding sex and homosexuality.

You wouldn't happen to have a link to the article where your pictures came from, do you? This is the first time I've heard of Transexualism and the practices in Iran. I'd like to read more.

Thanks!

The Commander
DIA

dont worry about it. i didnt take it offensively. i just wanted to point some things out. just type in transsexual iran in google. theres lots of stuff on that. Also, in these countries, its not just certain crimes that are harshly punished. Alot of things like drinkingj in public, even selling food during ramadan, stealing (hand cut off), are punished harshly. It's just that religion is way more conservative in alot of these places.
And peggy that info on transsexuals in islam is interesting. I didnt even know that. I think im going to go find a girl and introduce her to my parents now :) And if i actually find one i really will!

[peggygee]

And peggy that info on transsexuals in islam is interesting. I didnt even know that. I think im going to go find a girl and introduce her to my parents now :) And if i actually find one i really will!

I realize that it was alot of information, but as I stated previously there
is so much misinformation on Islam and transgenderism, that I hoped
I could help set the record straight.

Good luck in finding Ms. Right. :wink:

[Night Rider]

They have also been known to kill their children and stone their women. For the most insane reasons.

That's the biggest generalisation I've heard here in a while. Is that your idea of a stereotype Muslim? Someone who stones their women and kills their children?

I'm assuming you're talking about executions in which case the West is just as guilty. USA still has the Death Penalty although it's nowhere near as brutal as the Middle East.

No it is not

What about Aqsa Parve in canada
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=169790

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2007/12/11/jonathan-kay-on-the-death-of-aqsa-parvez.aspx

there are plenty more

http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

Muslim Cleric backs exicution of gays

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/226/226549_muslim_cleric_backs_execution_of_gays.html

More
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/25/news/thailand.php#end_main

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

90% of the worlds 1.2 billion mulims are moderate. Thats a really high number unless you look at the the number who are radical

120,000,000 radical muslims

40% of the muslims in the UK want Sharia law.

These radicals openly support killing gays, women who shame them, hide their women under a cloak, and consider transexuals suffering from an "illness".

90 % of the muslims = good; 10% of the muslims = bad. Fear the 10%


But then again, you know more than me :roll:

I could also list a hundred articles about hardcore christians that are also racist, homophobic, and want to kill all muslims. That 40% number is also a number you pulled out of somewhere dark. completely ridiculous.

I agree shyguy.

jimbob (doesn't sound trailer trash at all)

I'm totally against some parts of the Koran just as I am the Bible. Radical is radical whether you're Muslim, Christian, Buddist, Athiest....whatever

I think you could have worded your initial post better. It was disrespectful to Muslims and as for your second post, to be honest I didn't read any of the links because I've heard it all before 10 times over.

[Yarracuda]

ooi ooi....anyway....transexualism is for me just a plain word.....>>>>sex and fun to be with...religion does not create any barrier for me...

[SXFX]

Pleas note, Iran / Persia isn't exactly the model Islamic state.
Never in it's history was Iran ever truly orthadox nor ever governed under a religious theocracy. It's current leadership 1979- is a total apperation and not consistant with the ideals of the people.
I mean come on, we are talking about a country whos motto use to be "eat drink and be happy for tomarrow we shall it it all over again!"
a country that gave the world Shiraz wine and wonderful sexual poetry.

[BrendaQG]

In the name of Allah. The Benificent. The Merciful. I bear witness that there is no god but god (Allah) and Muhammad is the messenger of God.

Happy Eid ul Adah! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eid_ul-Adha)

Thank you Peggygee for passing on the message I would have had I been paying attention.

I have been a Muslim since 2002. I converted on account of how nice Muslims have been to me over the years, my sympathy for the persecution they experienced at the time, and the influence of my boyfriend at the time. (yes this was when i was living as a guy). I first became interested in Islam back with the Million Man march. In a sense I slowly discovered Islam from then on. I still am learning more every day.

For most of my life I have basically been an atheist. Being a transsexual, being that so many "good Christian" people were tormenting me for my differences. I was called by the old black church ladies the spawn of Satan. They would encourage their sons to beat me up. I blamed god for those peoples bad behavior.

While on the other hand the Muslims, Hindu's, Arabs, Pakistanis, and Indians treated me right. The only group of Christians that treated me humanely were Hispanics.

Latter today I will celebrate this Eid by having a traditional meal and offering the Eid prayer as Muhammad did. I will do this at the Albanian mosque which is in my parent's neighborhood.

Why Muslims are this way about transsexuals?

In most Muslim countries there is a widely held belief that all of Muhammad's companions will go to heaven. That they were all basically righteous and moral people simply because they heard the truth and stuck by him even when there were few Muslims.

That group of companions of Muhammad included several "Mukhannathun".

If one searches around on the internet one can find that there is much long established literature on these people. In translations of writings about them that were made back in the 6,7,8, and 9 hundreds AD describe people who were

Male born

Plucked their beard hairs

Dressed, thought, and acted like women usually from a young age.

They had a notably sharp tounged wit.

They performed in shows that sound like Medieval Middle eastern versions of a drag show or Vogue Ball, or the so called "boy play" that still happens in Afghanistan.

... and so on.

I cannot stress enough how much like the ladies you see here those people were and are. They were not toned down, or undercover in any way.

A good source to see would be. This digitized book. "Gender and Difference in the middle ages" (http://books.google.com/books?id=TnF0IyzFA0gC&pg=PA57&dq=mukhannathun&sig=2cvzQy61R91dv4HjzG8tTogDn3o#PPA56,M1)

Lastly it has been said that the islamic world is conservative on transsexualism. This is true. They like their transsexuals to have been classically efeminate sissy boys, who looked and acted feminine. It is worth noting that a transsexual who is a butch "lesbian" would be treated as a male in the islamic world. No place is perfect.

[Tomfurbs]

I bear witness that there is no god but god (Allah) and Muhammad is the messenger of God.



How do you do that, exactly? :?:

[BrendaQG]

I bear witness that there is no god but god (Allah) and Muhammad is the messenger of God.



How do you do that, exactly? :?:

By knowing (not simply beliving) that there could only be one creator. One creator of all living and supernatural beings. Or else the creator could have been created and that would not make sense. To a muslim god is the one and only supernatural being with any control over life, death, and the circumstances we find ourselves in. As such god is the only living thing worthy of worship or reverence in the universe. God set up the universe and as such is the root cause of every natural process in it.

Basically muslims figure from logic that there can not be any other diety.

There are other natural and supernatural beings we belive in. There are angels. Then there are the jiin (in english Geanie's. The scientist in me think that this last group was how those people understood what we would now call Aliens. Don't laugh read the story of Joshua and the wheel in the Christian bible.)

Further more it is part of muslim belife that all revealed religions came from the same god. They were set to the people by prophets chosen from among each culture. The only thing that makes Muhammad special is that the Quran was written down as it was revelaed. Compiled shortly after he died and prophecy ended and has been in the same form ever since. Muhammads one and only miracle is getting that message to his people intact.

You asked a really complicated question there.

[vegasboy]

Not trying to pile on, but I think an important distinction should be made. It's often said that all religious extremists are bad, and have difficulty respecting the rule of law where it comes into conflict with the religious doctrine. However, as far as I know, and I could be wrong, the only theocratic countries in the world that serve up draconian punishments for insulting their deities or prophets are Islamic.

That's not to say that all Muslims think it's fitting for non-Muslims to suffer a brutal physical punishment for insulting Mohammed, or that there aren't violent Christians or Jews. However, this primitive tendency to undermine the free speech rights of non-believers isn't embodied in law except in places instituting Sharia law.

Another distinction should be made. Of course there are moderate countries in the Middle East with a Muslim majority that aren't theocratic. Not all of these countries criminalize homosexuality, though some also don't criminalize honor killings committed against homosexuals. Would be nice to see the Middle East embrace secularism, though it's not looking like a likely prospect.

And it goes without saying, in spite of this I respect the rights of Muslims to practice their religion. Though I don't think the Ayatollah of Iran has the right to issue a fatwa beyond the borders of his country. As for those fatwas issued within the borders, have mercy for the non-believers.

[jimbobw2]

That 40% number is also a number you pulled out of somewhere dark. completely ridiculous.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml

Do your homework. Then get back to me....OK

[tollroad]

Indonesia, where Bee is from, tends toward moderate Islam.

What is the meaning of "moderate Islam"? It is as meaningless as "mild Islam", but if I have to choose, I'll pick the milder form.

[Coroner]

Indonesia, where Bee is from, tends toward moderate Islam.

What is the meaning of "moderate Islam"? It is as meaningless as "mild Islam", but if I have to choose, I'll pick the milder form.

Ever heard of Bosnia and Herzegovina or Albania? 43% of Bosnia´s population are Bosniaks who are muslims. Well, not all of them since 10-12 % of them are atheists. Bosniaks and Albanians are the only white muslims in the world because the Bosniaks are Slavs and are relatives of the Croats, Czech, Russians, Polish and other Slavic ethnic groups.
The Islam in Bosnia was always very open and liberal. Call it European if you wish. 90% of Bosnian Muslims didn´t pray or go to the mosque and their women were never covered. They look like any other European or Western nation. Of course there are women there that cover themselves but it´s everyone´s free right to do that or not. Bosniaks are heavy drinkers (typically Slavic) :lol: and many of them eat pork. Simply, they don´t care and live free. But, it´s just the Bosnians and Albanians.

[vegasboy]

Coroner,
would you say these are Muslims who aren't as observant, or there's actually a distinct, and milder form of Islam that they're practicing? I would guess the former, but I don't actually know so it's not a rhetorical question.

[yodajazz]

...
Further more it is part of muslim belief that all revealed religions came from the same god. They were set to the people by prophets chosen from among each culture...

I think this is a very important distinction for people to understand.
Muslims recognize their God as the same God as Christians Jews and other religious philosphies. They recognized the validity of other prophets. They see Jesus as a prophet, which is their highest designation, so they are not against Jesus as some people believe.

My point is that there is a lot of room for dialogue between people making war Christians, Muslims and Jews. This dialogue can help bring about a policy shift within religions to treat people with respect and more humanely. No bomb has the power to bring about this change.

I regards to the treatment of Gays and transgender people, I'm sure that there are many passages in the Koran that promote that advocate treating people with kindness, mercy, etc. So it comes down to promoting which religious principles are more important to promoting peace and understanding in today's world. Setting an example is the next most important thing to do. Attacking a Muslim nation under false pretenses is the exact opposite of promoting peace and understanding. And what example does that set?

[CaliGuy]

You like Muslim D*ck, don't you Vegas Boy?

[CaliGuy]

No family to spend time with over the holidays Nicole? Good use of your time to be on a porn site all day. What it must like to be you? hahahhahah

[vegasboy]

You like Muslim D*ck, don't you Vegas Boy?
This has got to be a joke. Perhaps you like the irony of a battle royale between vegasboy and caliguy. But keep it in one thread. This has turned into a somewhat serious thread.

[CaliGuy]

Oh you saw family today? Did you stick your DICK in your dad? hahahha You can take the guy out of the Ghetto, but you can't take the Ghetto out of the guy, know what I mean Nicole? hahahh

[Coroner]

You like Muslim D*ck, don't you Vegas Boy?What kind of idiot is too uptight to spell out "dick" on a porn forum?

:lol:

[vegasboy]

I already saw some family today. It was short and sweet. Not like you, sticking around for the after-dinner orgy. haha
He saw a family film. Starts with his brother playing the banjo and ends with his father playing trombone. But fortunately only his brother squealed like a pig.

[yosi]

You like Muslim D*ck, don't you Vegas Boy?What kind of idiot is too uptight to spell out "dick" on a porn forum?

maybe he meant Muslim Duck :twisted:

[CaliGuy]

ha exactly, Muslim Duck is very rare. ha

[vegasboy]

You like Muslim D*ck, don't you Vegas Boy?What kind of idiot is too uptight to spell out "dick" on a porn forum?

maybe he meant Muslim Duck :twisted:
In that case, I do like Muslim duck.

[CaliGuy]

vegasboy like penis? ha

[Coroner]

Coroner,
would you say these are Muslims who aren't as observant, or there's actually a distinct, and milder form of Islam that they're practicing? I would guess the former, but I don't actually know so it's not a rhetorical question.

Bosnian Muslims are Sunnis like most Muslims all over the world except Iranians, 3/4 of Iraqis and the Lebanese. There are two main confessions in Islam: Sunni and Shia. The Islam was brought to Bosnia by the Ottoman Turks after their conquest of Bosnia in 1463. Bosnian Muslims were once Christians but a big part of South Slavs converted to the "new" religion from 1463. This process took about 200 years. 36% are still Orthodox Christians and 17% are Catholics.
The Islam in the Ottoman Empire was liberal and based on Sufism. But I guess it´s the Bosnian mentality that keeps people from being strict believers or whatever just like difference between German Catholics and Spanish Catholics. The Spanish are in mostly strict Catholics but the Germans much more liberal or non-believers. You have to understand that Bosnians are Europeans and all countries around them are Christian, so it´s a very different world than Asia or North Africa.

[ezed]

Organized Religion = A license to steal.

Devoting yourself to an organizied Religion = Another human who God will shake his head and say "Another do over"

This goes for all of them all not just the muslims. (Though technology has forced the muslims to ratchet it up a notch lately.)

Religion is a means for man to excert control over other men and woman for their personal gain.

nazis, communists, you name it, they all use the same blueprint.

When people use the minds God gave them, they won't need religion anymore. In the meantime, the hierarchy of the world's religions will try their damnest to see that doesn't happen.

Merry belated Christmas, Christ was not a Catholic or even a Christian for that matter. Think about it. He was a preacher with no church. Nor did he want one. As a matter of fact he ransacked a temple!

Was he the child of God, yeah! We all are.