Why not have a third gender? Neither Man nor Woman.

[BrendaQG]

This is for the girls here.

I am not going to write a long essay on why to not have a third gender. I think it would be a positive step forward if there were such a cultural and legal third gender in European and American society.

Cultures that have such an institution are all relatively accpting of transsexuals. (you know the usual cultures, Native Americans, Thailand etc.)

Personally I would have no problem with this myself if the results were more practical rights. Beeing seen as legally exactly like a GG is of minor importance to me. For in my mind I am not and never will be exactly like a GG. I was never quite male or female and even when post op still will not be quite exactly female. Given only two choices I choose female, but if there were a third I would go for it.

What do the rest of you think?

[TrueBeauty TS]

He, She or It? No thanks. The more you segregate yourself, the easier it is for them to make you sit in the back of the bus.



I'm a woman, thank you. A transsexual woman, but still a woman.



.

[peggygee]

First, before all 'the guys' come on bombarding this thread, it's
primarily for the women as Brenda has stated. So if you don't
wear panties, have tits, and or are on HRT, you may not be able
to render an informed opinion.

Second, my response below is part of an edited post from a a thread
on another forum, a routers hop away.

You din't think I write a new thesis for all my responses did you, I'd
end up with carpal.

:roll:

Having said that:

What I did want to introduce to the conversation are my thoughts on the
binary aspects of gender:

Admiittedly I'm somewhat old school in some of my beliefs. I transitioned
in a much different era. As such, 'for me' I have adopted the contemporary
binary definitions of gender. I worked very hard hormonally, surgically, and
legally to assimilate into society's definition of female.

Yet I am not so rigid in my thoughts that I can't concede that there may
be those that identify as a third sex. I can fully understand that, and see
it as a perfectly valid gender choice.

However there are many transsexuals who are quite adamant in their desire
to be designated female. I don't want to say that those who have GRS
must be accorded that designation, and those that haven't should not be,
as I feel that is divisive and would not be equitable.

While the debate on when a transwoman should be deemed female is an
ongoing one: Is it after she has begun her transition, or had an
orchiechtomy, or must she have had the total gender reassignment surgery.
These are questions that plague us within in the transcommunity and in
society at large.

But for me:

I am a woman.

I am a Black woman.

I am a post operative transwoman.

But I am not now, never have been, nor ever will be a shemale, he-she,
shim, chick with a @%$@, etc, or a member of a third sex.
:smh __________________

[mbf]

This is for the girls here.

I am not going to write a long essay on why to not have a third gender. I think it would be a positive step forward if there were such a cultural and legal third gender in European and American society.

Cultures that have such an institution are all relatively accpting of transsexuals. (you know the usual cultures, Native Americans, Thailand etc.)



I do wonder if this lesser acceptance of transsexuals in European and American society you mention above has got anything to to with that culture beeing predominantly monotheistic/manichean ????

[BrendaQG]

He, She or It? No thanks. The more you segregate yourself, the easier it is for them to make you sit in the back of the bus.



I'm a woman, thank you. A transsexual woman, but still a woman.



.

I am a woman too. I feel that given the choices that is the one that fits me best.

What I am not talking about is being called an "it" as you so crasy put it. In Thailand they call us "second type of woman" or "woman of the second type". That is more of what I have in mind. We could have the rights of a man or woman (MTF or FTM) and we could get these in such a way that would not discriminate against anyone because of surgical status or anything else so arbitrary (Why not discriminate against transsexuals who will never pass? That would be abhorent, horrible thing to do. So why give such hell to the non-op's? Who often express their outward feminity so effectively that SRS seems superfluous to them.)

[TrueBeauty TS]

I am a woman too. I feel that given the choices that is the one that fits me best.

What I am not talking about is being called an "it" as you so crasy put it. In Thailand they call us "second type of woman" or "woman of the second type". That is more of what I have in mind. We could have the rights of a man or woman (MTF or FTM) and we could get these in such a way that would not discriminate against anyone because of surgical status or anything else so arbitrary (Why not discriminate against transsexuals who will never pass? That would be abhorent, horrible thing to do. So why give such hell to the non-op's? Who often express their outward feminity so effectively that SRS seems superfluous to them.)


You missed my point. Bottom line is, I don't care to be called anything other than a woman. I'm not interested in being called The Third Sex, Ladyboy, Shemale, Second Type Woman, Third Type Woman, 124th Type Woman, etc.


When you single yourself out more in society, it's easier for them to think of you not as a person, not as one of them, but as something strange, maybe something less than human, or scary and different. Or just an "it".


Now of course, there ARE times when you have to make distinctions - as everyone has to do - when the need arises. For example, medical issues. I WILL tell my doctor I am a TS because that could possibly impact my medical treatment.


Now if you are only talking about legal definitions, then that is something else altogether. We can't expect our government to come up with a definition of what a woman is if the TS "community" can't either. I don't even know if I want to try.


But out in the real world, I'll stick to being a normal woman in society. I enjoy being with my straight friends and my gay friends. I make no distinctions when I interact with them, think of them, or talk with them. And they treat me the same way.


.

[BrendaQG]

Ah I see. That works for you.

What if I were to say that you speak from your position as a passable postop (?) TS?

Consider what it is like for those who are not both of those things.

If your apperance would tell that you were a transsexual or even "just a man in a dress". If your papers would reveal that you had not had SRS. As it does even for those who are post-op but in a state where their BC cannot be amended? These are all rhetorical questions. Things I considered when I decidded that a third gender would be to more people's benefit than my own. For in fact I do not tell that I am a TS, and nobody knows. I would defend your right not to tell every Tom, Dick and Harry. (I doubt they would ask to see your papers before wanting your number.)

[SarahG]

When you single yourself out more in society, it's easier for them to think of you not as a person, not as one of them, but as something strange,


Exactly.

It would be a never ending expierence of being outted everytime one uses a public bathroom, has to show ID, etc.... even if things were more.... tolerant (acceptance & tolerance are two vastly different things) in this country/society, some people may not want to advertise that status about themselves. It boils down to a privacy issue.

Would everyone in the community be willing to say, wear a tshirt that stated that they are trans on it in big, bold lettering? I certainly doubt it. Its kinda like that in a sense.

So here is a question to pose for you all: Why does our legal system designate/document sex status of its citizens? Because that distinction translates into differences in how the system will interact with any given person. By having a third sex classification system, by definition, we wouldn't be able to be treated identically to GGs in how the system interacts with us.

Now, what the "third sex" proposal is, isn't a system of three sexes at all... remember there are ftm's in this world. Does it really sound like a logical idea to have our legal system designate people based on 4 sexes? Or more perhaps?

Having MtFs and FtMs use the same bathrooms, lockerrooms, public showers and prisons merely because we're both trans doesn't make any more OR less sense than having GGs and GBs to do the same.

Obviously having all trans people using the same facilities merely because they are trans is is problematic: if GGs and GBs are to use the same bathrooms, lockerrooms, public showers etc than what would be the point in separting us from nontrans people in the first place? Either these differences matter to the system, OR they don't. And if they don't... care to explain how well it would work to have both GGs and GBs in the same prison buildings?

[peggygee]

When you single yourself out more in society, it's easier for them to think of you not as a person, not as one of them, but as something strange,


Exactly.

It would be a never ending expierence of being outted everytime one uses a public bathroom, has to show ID, etc.... even if things were more.... tolerant (acceptance & tolerance are two vastly different things) in this country/society, some people may not want to advertise that status about themselves. It boils down to a privacy issue.

.....

This is an incredibly complex issue, and thank you Brenda for bringing it to
the fore. And Sarah you have made some compelling points as well. Even
for those woman who are comfortable identifying as a third sex, I'm not
sure that they would want to share that information everytime they buy
a pack of cigarettes or cash a check.

And True I agree we can't allow ourselves to be seperated, or segregated,
we all sink or swim together.

Thailand, parts of Latin America, and parts of the European Union are
putting F on the identification papers of transwomen, operation or not.
So I see the solution is for the US government to change it's antiquated
gender labeling, catch up with the rest of the world, not for us to bend to
their mandates.

What is really great about having this discussion in the transcommuity is
that the powers to be in this country are equally perplexed about what to
do. That we are having this discourse will allow us to impact upon the
ultimate decisions.

[Rod la Rod]

The answer is TOLERANCE AND ACCEPTANCE. Hyper religiosity has taken a terrible toll on the USA particularly in the last several years with the G.W. Bush Crusades.

American popular culture, exaggerated definitions of male and female are more extreme and unrealistic than ever, completely inaccurate and absurd.

Other cultures including Latin America, Asia, Europe, and even Islamic countries have a much more practical and tolerant view of the natural variation in Gender and human sexuality.

Not every person fits into the narrow definition of what is male and female
according to the extreme American commercialized concept of gender.

What is most important is that every individual has the same rights under the law regardless of gender.

[ezed]

Let's dump the gender stuff, and concentrate on the person. Who is this person in front of me. Are they nice. We are so fuck uped as a society when we can't do this simple thing with out being influenced by the "NORM".

The NORM gives us war. And we seem to thrive on it as a race.

[BrendaQG]

The NORM will probably be with us no matter what and so will heteronormativity. No matter what.

I personally think the way to improve things for all transsexual women is for as many people as feel comfortable doing so to be open about their transsexuality. I don't mean telling every person they meet they are TS but by.....not being so ashamed and self loathing of the fact they are TS. We need to be open with and accepting of ourselves first.

So many TS's themselves are caught in a frame of mind that places them forever in pursuit of "true" femalehood and feminity. Instead of realizing how arbitrary that is by definition they protest that wiring of their brain specificlly made them want a barbie doll (and not one of the female figures from GI Joe). :shrug: Whatever.

Saying blend in is fine for those who pass without flaw but the fact is no one does that. No one. Even if someone had hormones well before puberty their are always tells. Then there are people who try as they might will never ever pass even most of the time. Some people can delude themselves into thinking oh that person said "sure" not "sir"! :roll:

That's not really accepting yourself. When I see another male to female transsexual I truly do see a girl,...but I do see a girl who at the same time has this dual nature. More so than a GG would. (even they have masculine sides to themselves). That's what I am kind of talking about when I say accepting ourselves. Accepting that we do have some masculine traits, as well as our feminine ones. Everyone does, every human being that ever lived did. We are no different. If anything we are the ultimate expression of that fact...that in every man lies the potential to create a woman and vice versa. (think about it all daughters have fathers or at least sperm doners).

I just had to rant

[BeardedOne]

I just had to rant

You give good rant. :D

Gender is such a subjective term, not just in this day and age, but for all time. I've been intimate with men, women, transgendered, transsexuals (M2F as well as F2M), and one intersexed individual (Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as a 'hermaphrodite' to some level). Oddly, in the end, they all spoke to me, listened to me, joked with me, shared their life with me...

As any human creature might do.

Gender seemed to always take a backseat to all the other aspects.

[youcancallmeclaire]

Let's dump the gender stuff, and concentrate on the person. Who is this person in front of me. Are they nice. We are so fuck uped as a society when we can't do this simple thing with out being influenced by the "NORM".

The NORM gives us war. And we seem to thrive on it as a race.

I wish there were more people like you.

[Cyclops]

First, before all 'the guys' come on bombarding this thread, it's
primarily for the women as Brenda has stated. So if you don't
wear panties, have tits, and or are on HRT, you may not be able
to render an informed opinion.

Second, my response below is part of an edited post from a a thread
on another forum, a routers hop away.

You din't think I write a new thesis for all my responses did you, I'd
end up with carpal.

:roll:

Having said that:

What I did want to introduce to the conversation are my thoughts on the
binary aspects of gender:

Admiittedly I'm somewhat old school in some of my beliefs. I transitioned
in a much different era. As such, 'for me' I have adopted the contemporary
binary definitions of gender. I worked very hard hormonally, surgically, and
legally to assimilate into society's definition of female.

Yet I am not so rigid in my thoughts that I can't concede that there may
be those that identify as a third sex. I can fully understand that, and see
it as a perfectly valid gender choice.

However there are many transsexuals who are quite adamant in their desire
to be designated female. I don't want to say that those who have GRS
must be accorded that designation, and those that haven't should not be,
as I feel that is divisive and would not be equitable.

While the debate on when a transwoman should be deemed female is an
ongoing one: Is it after she has begun her transition, or had an
orchiechtomy, or must she have had the total gender reassignment surgery.
These are questions that plague us within in the transcommunity and in
society at large.

But for me:

I am a woman.

I am a Black woman.

I am a post operative transwoman.

But I am not now, never have been, nor ever will be a shemale, he-she,
shim, chick with a @%$@, etc, or a member of a third sex.
:smh __________________

narrow mindedness will do nothing good here

the one thing I find wrong with what you say is tg women only .

you forget that there are both male to female snd female to male transgenders

[Floyd R]

What are your chances of finding female to male transgenders posting on this forum? I would say slim to none. It wouldn't have made sense for Peggy to address a segment of the transgender community that rarely or never leaves messages here.






First, before all 'the guys' come on bombarding this thread, it's
primarily for the women as Brenda has stated. So if you don't
wear panties, have tits, and or are on HRT, you may not be able
to render an informed opinion.

Second, my response below is part of an edited post from a a thread
on another forum, a routers hop away.

You din't think I write a new thesis for all my responses did you, I'd
end up with carpal.

:roll:

Having said that:

What I did want to introduce to the conversation are my thoughts on the
binary aspects of gender:

Admiittedly I'm somewhat old school in some of my beliefs. I transitioned
in a much different era. As such, 'for me' I have adopted the contemporary
binary definitions of gender. I worked very hard hormonally, surgically, and
legally to assimilate into society's definition of female.

Yet I am not so rigid in my thoughts that I can't concede that there may
be those that identify as a third sex. I can fully understand that, and see
it as a perfectly valid gender choice.

However there are many transsexuals who are quite adamant in their desire
to be designated female. I don't want to say that those who have GRS
must be accorded that designation, and those that haven't should not be,
as I feel that is divisive and would not be equitable.

While the debate on when a transwoman should be deemed female is an
ongoing one: Is it after she has begun her transition, or had an
orchiechtomy, or must she have had the total gender reassignment surgery.
These are questions that plague us within in the transcommunity and in
society at large.

But for me:

I am a woman.

I am a Black woman.

I am a post operative transwoman.

But I am not now, never have been, nor ever will be a shemale, he-she,
shim, chick with a @%$@, etc, or a member of a third sex.
:smh __________________

narrow mindedness will do nothing good here

the one thing I find wrong with what you say is tg women only .

you forget that there are both male to female snd female to male transgenders

[JANIRA]

Its so funny you mentioned "Neither man nor woman" That is a book i am currently reading Amazing... Its a book about the hijras in india. Hijras are transsexuals who travel in groups all around india,,, have had the operation of their gentitals not for sexual matters but more as a sacrifice to a indian goddess "Bahuchara Mata" and they are belived to be blesssed by that goddesss with powers that heal and cleanse. Many people in india are fond belivers in the hijras,, and they are actually respected by some. Its utterly fasinating!!!

[NadiaUSA]

Genetic physical variations of gender have always existed from birth. I wonder why many of the first cultures of the world up to modern day only have two categories.
Is it because of religion or other culture?
Do they deny our existence?
Do they gain from that?
Are we only allowed in to the club if we squeeze into 1 of 2 boxes?

[BrendaQG]

@Janira

Yeah exactly. The Hijra would one of the better examples of a society which has a third gender, places T and I people in that category and respects them as such.

I would like to note for you that Among the muslims of India and Pakistan they also have Hijra. They base their religious justifications on different grounds of course. I could go on and on about that. instead I will give this link about it and leave it at that. (http://www.geocities.com/leylasuhagi/hijra.html)

The one caveat to that is that being post surgical is the key to all that respect. Which puts FtM's in a tough position if they cannot have pahlloplasti. Which really is not so different from here. (No surgery and the self appointed post-op matriarchs of the community will treat you like a part time crossdresser and make sure the law does the same.)

@Nadia

Most people fit the two categoires. Is the obvious reason. People also have a way of thinking that everyone should be like them...fit the norm or be treated badly. The same things that motivate racism, and religious hatred.

Short answer: Because people need someone to be an asshole to.

[Legend]

I recall watching something on the discovery channel about india having a third gender they were called eunicks or something like that but it was pretty negative,they were known to put curses on people if they didn't give them money right away.

[SarahG]

I recall watching something on the discovery channel about india having a third gender they were called eunicks are something like that but it was pretty negative,they were known to put curses on people if they didn't give them money right away.

Lots of societies in the past have had people who get their testes removed in order to obtain a special status or role... but that alone doesn't make them trans per say.

For instance, there was a time when it was common in Europe for choir boys to have their testes removed so their voices wouldn't change... I think it would be pretty far stretched to claim that this makes them all trans.

It has been a fairly common practice of guards, servants etc for female royalty in numerous societies. I believe China being one of them (I am a bit rusty in this area however).

I think to begin to make the case that such people in historic groups like this were trans requires some kind of gender role component.

I don't particularly buy that all the girls in history who have lived & presented as guys in order to do things like fighting in combat were necessarily trans either. Especially when such periods are exclusive to that need and don't exist prior or after.

[BrendaQG]

I recall watching something on the discovery channel about india having a third gender they were called eunicks are something like that but it was pretty negative,they were known to put curses on people if they didn't give them money right away.

That must have been old if it called them Eunnuch's. It is true that some superstitious people belive that Hijra's. The way I hear it is that the troops of Hijra's go to the market and come on to men in public,...then threaten to out them if they do not give them money. They are also paid to bless weddings, funerals and birth's of boys. They live in second families refere to eachothers as mothers daughters and sisters (not so different from a "house" of the Ball culture). They are also known to be prostitutes. I'll bet the men the hijra harass by day are chasing the girls by nite.

It is worth noting that Indian/Pakistani people refere to us and them with the same words. What they think of Hijra's is what they think of us as well.

@Sara

Those Hijra are just as trans or even MORE trans than many of the old post-op-before-post-electrolysyis types that barge around tranny land here in the USA.

[SarahG]

@Sara

Those Hijra are just as trans or even MORE trans than many of the old post-op-before-post-electrolysyis types that barge around tranny land here in the USA.

I've never said otherwise ;)

But I felt what I said was necessary because I often see people mistakenly take such examples as Hijar to lead to false conclusions that everyone in the past whom have had sterilizations such as theirs, did so due to the fact that they are trans.

The gender role component is a more significant one than the rest in history. Going by memory many north American native tribes allowed people to live in whichever gender they felt they needed to; but did not contain an orchirectomy like procedure in the process (such as in the Hijar example).

[BrendaQG]

@Sara

Those Hijra are just as trans or even MORE trans than many of the old post-op-before-post-electrolysyis types that barge around tranny land here in the USA.

I've never said otherwise ;)

But I felt what I said was necessary because I often see people mistakenly take such examples as Hijar to lead to false conclusions that everyone in the past whom have had sterilizations such as theirs, did so due to the fact that they are trans.

The gender role component is a more significant one than the rest in history. Going by memory many north American native tribes allowed people to live in whichever gender they felt they needed to; but did not contain an orchirectomy like procedure in the process (such as in the Hijar example).

I am sure there are people who were castrated eunnuch's who were not trans. I.e. criminals.

It is risky to judge past people or people in other cultures by the ruels of our own present society. What is to say that the trans status of us now here in the USA is any more gender conflicted than the third genders of south and south east asia?

Hijra's of India now and 800 years ago were by definiion as transsexual as anyone has ever been.

[Wicked Mira]

Thank you, Brenda, for this thread.

I'm of both minds on this one. I fully endorse the notion of a third gender, if we cannot abolish the notion of gender altogether. The binary gender concept is born of the limited mind and seeks refuge in predicatability and conformity, both characteristics of a fearful mind unwilling to venture into the realm of unlimited possibility. However, the practicalities of changing society's consciousness on this one renders it unlikely to change.

For anyone really interested in a very cogent argument in favor of a third gender, I fully recommend the book "Gender Outlaw" by Kate Bornstein, a TS woman well ahead of her time. It should be a must read for any TS. To her, the idea of a TS woman adopting the notion that she is a woman plain and simple is to just trade one false identity for another. Gender is much more than biology and one can't get passed the fact that TG women typically are not socialized to think as women.

I have been post-op for ten years. In that time, I have gone from wanting nothing more than to "pass" (god, how I loathe that word) and being devastated anytime someone "clocked" me, to really not giving a damn what anyone knows or thinks. I have no friggin' idea what I am and I got tired trying to figure it out. People are going to label me however they wish and in accordance with their own ideas. Where am I at now? I am just me and how I look and how I express myself is purely a reflection of how I wish to self-express in this lifetime.

[cockcraver]

There is a 3rd gender...hermaphrodite


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

[justatransgirl]

There is a 3rd gender...hermaphrodite
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

Interesting point CC.

I'm with Mira. I've spoken to this before.

I'm not really sure anymore WHAT I am.

I'm part boy, part girl, part neither, part both.

I'm NOT a boy, but I'll never completely be a girl. I'm neither.

I LOVE being a girl, I like doing a lot of boy things, I'm both.

I'm attracted to men, as a woman. I'm attracted to women, more as a man than a woman. And I'm in love with another TS girl as a lesbian.

So what am I?

The only thing I can come up with is I am part of the evolution of humankind, the physical creation of a third gender.

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

[BrendaQG]

So what am I?

Exactly? I don't care for labels. But society at large loves em. how about three check boxes. M, F, T.... or better yet just a blank line. Write in what you want, could be nice.

:tsk: that will never happen :tsk

[Ecstatic]

So what am I?

Exactly? I don't care for labels. But society at large loves em. how about three check boxes. M, F, T.... or better yet just a blank line. Write in what you want, could be nice.

:tsk: that will never happen :tsk
Reminds me of my favorite Woody Guthrie story. When the fabled folksinger was admitted to the hospital, he was asked to state his religion on the form. He wrote "All." They said he couldn't do that. So he crossed it out and wrote "None."

How about no gender?

Or for Sex: write "Yes"

[SarahG]

I think the "3rd gender" phrase is clearly operating under the assumption that all trans people are mtf's. If someone is to take this argument and run with it, what they're advocating is a system of no less than FOUR genders given the existance of ftm's.

Realistically there is no real service rendered by the use of gender or sex status notations in our systems. If you're into genealogy you'd find that what information was kept in church or government database systems in history is vastly different from today, the use of sex or gender status markers on paperwork really was not always in the norm.

We seem to have this crack-like addiction to adding more and more information to these databases needlessly. I don't care if the database is for a financial institution, school, government, church or other facility, every time someone requests more information than is truly needed, the people are effectively setting a precedent of requiring that extra information by "playing along"

The use of social security numbers as a national identification system would not have been possible if people had refused to use that information in financial institutions, schools, businesses and other nongovernmental parties.

[cockcraver]

[jutatransgirl wrote:
The only thing I can come up with is I am part of the evolution of humankind, the physical creation of a third gender.]

if ur right the future generations are in for a treat!

[justatransgirl]

I think the "3rd gender" phrase is clearly operating under the assumption that all trans people are mtf's. If someone is to take this argument and run with it, what they're advocating is a system of no less than FOUR genders given the existance of ftm's.

EXACTLY!

I left out the ftm equasion, since this site isn't exactly overflowing with transmen.

And I can't understand why any woman would want to cut off her boobs and grow facial hair...

Giggle,
TS Jamie :-)

Note for the morons - my comment is of course in jest. I have lots of ftm friends - or did... :-)

[TsVanessa69]

I am happy to be a trans-woman
In my mind, I'm all woman
and I am happy.
and i really don't care anymore what other people think, or how they view me.
I have reached the point in my life where I am happy with me. Fuck other peoples opinion :twisted:

[BrendaQG]

Cosign.

[pot]

To me they are all women, but if we need a 3rd gender.... we have females, we have males, then why not emales.
I would love to tell my boss, when he sees me drooling at the screen asking me what the hell I am doing, that I am just checking my emales..... :D