Duke University TG

[sucka4chix]

Parents of some Duke University students responded with outrage when they found a transgender m to f was staying in an all girls dorm. Everyone's referring to the person as a "male" who was planning on getting SRS, so I don't know what his status was. But surely he wasn't just some guy in drag if he was close to having the surgery.
What's the big deal? What am I missing here?
Duke moved the student to a dorm with a private bathroom to avoid problems.
Some people need to get a life.

[Falrune]

here's a link to the story:

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=5612936

[TopHeavyCutie]

That typa shit pisses me off to no end!


But ya know.....Trans people will keep fighting it till something gets done. Just like with civil rights or anything else of that nature. People will come around. If not sooner or later.

[peggygee]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/wtvd_header.jpg

Duke Transgender Student Moved Out of Dorm

By Gilbert Baez
(08/28/07 -- DURHAM) - Some students at Duke University and their parents say they were shocked by a decision to let a male student who plans to become a woman live in female dorm.

The University changed its plans, but not before one outraged parent in Fayetteville talked exclusively with Eyewitness News reporter Gilbert Baez.
Lee Chauncey lives in Fayetteville, but his daughter is a senior at Duke University in Durham. He was shocked last week after moving her into Craven Hall B to find out what he calls disturbing news.

"They called an urgent meeting for people on the floor telling them it was going to be something that affected the way they lived throughout the year," Chauncey explained.

Students were told a male student, who was going to have sexual reassignment surgery in coming months would be living as a female in the dorm. Chauncey immediately called Duke leaders. "I told him that if I was coming across as concerned I wasn't communicating properly... I was outraged," the concerned father said.

Chauncey says he doesn't have a problem with transgenders. He just doesn't think it's appropriate for an individual who right now is still a man  to live in a dorm like a woman. "And would be using the facilities for the women," Chauncey questioned. "Shower and bathroom facilities and the individual would have a key."

Leaders at Duke refused an on-camera interview and said they've resolved the issue by moving the male student into another dorm with a private bathroom.

Chauncey is glad the student has been moved, but he wishes the University would have made that the first option.

[peggygee]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/wtvd_header.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/dukeresonse1b.jpg

[peggygee]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/wtvd_header.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/dukeresponse2b.jpg

[peggygee]

Parents of some Duke University students responded with outrage when they found a transgender m to f was staying in an all girls dorm. Everyone's referring to the person as a "male" who was planning on getting SRS, so I don't know what his status was. But surely he wasn't just some guy in drag if he was close to having the surgery.
What's the big deal? What am I missing here?
Duke moved the student to a dorm with a private bathroom to avoid problems.
Some people need to get a life.



here's a link to the story:

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=5612936

Thank you both so much for this information. :wink:

[trish]

what do students expect when they sign up for CRAVEN hall?

[Felicia Katt]

At Duke, Boys will be boys, but girls better not be.

Pretty sad that being a drunken jock hiring and mistreating strippers is acceptable, and simply being transgendered is not

FK

[peggygee]

At Duke, Boys will be boys, but girls better not be.

Pretty sad that being a drunken jock hiring and mistreating strippers is acceptable, and simply being transgendered is not

FK

Years back I lived in North Carolina (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill). I also
worked in the research triangle, and while I always valued the academia
of Duke, I just never cared for the place.

Now UNC at Chapel Hill, that brings back fond memories as does some
of the historically Black colleges of the area.

[sucka4chix]

The irate parent from Fayettevile said he doesn't have a problem with transgenders, but he shouldn't be in a female dorm while he's still a male. What a crock!
This is the sentence I want someone to finish:

"I don't want my daughter in a dorm with a transgender because he might _____..."

This stems from the fact that (1) people are so ignorant of the transgender,
and (2) there HAS to be a fundamental change in the way we classify peoples sexual identity. This is my pet peeve. It's the reason guys who like t-girls are labeled gay, and it's the reason transgenders are discriminated against. They don't have a category!!! Until we can beat it thru peoples heads that there actually IS something else beyond simple male and female, problems will continue. There exists no convenient box to put a ts in. So they're not accepted.

[62des]

Well I think it was fair and unfair. I'm not even goin to bust my brain and try to explain.

[sucka4chix]

Well I think it was fair and unfair. I'm not even goin to bust my brain and try to explain.
I can understand why you might not want a GUY in a all female dorm. But you can't qualify this person as a guy, just because she has a penis. The girls won't want her there because she has a penis and the guys won't want "him" because "he" looks like a girl. So what do you do. New categories. New terminology is essential.

[zookeeper]

But...what if she decides she's a lesbian while she still has her penis?

Or worse, what if one of the girls in the dorm is a lesbian, sees this (presumably) cute trans-girl, seduces her and gets an unexpected surprise?

Our lesbian daughters must be protected!
[/snark]

[tsntx]

well a pvt bathroom in a girls dorm sounds more like a luxury then a punishment to me

[62des]

well a pvt bathroom in a girls dorm sounds more like a luxury then a punishment to me

I agree. Its just a damn bathroom who cares anyway!?

[FREEFALLL666]

OK this might sound a little harsh but I can see both viewpoints and though I dont agree with their descision to remove her from the female dorm I believe there are two processes going on.

If she is put into the male dorm then she WILL be the victim of bullying and horrendous treatment because the unenlightened will see her as a GAY man wanting to be something she is not.

If she is put into the girls dorm then parents who dont understand will think that she is perving on their daughters and may even get them pregnant or cause them to deviate from good christian values (it is the US we are talking about).


Either way the descision was the wrong one and yet more pandering to irrational fears rather than being kind and understanding.

[tsntx]

it doesnt matter... now that shes been outed shell hate her experience and she will either drop out and go community or she will move to a different school

[SarahG]

it doesnt matter... now that shes been outed shell hate her experience and she will either drop out and go community or she will move to a different school

Agreed, with it being such a media fanfare case there is no way in hell she'd be able to have a normal college life there. Even if her name isnt released, the kids at the least at that dorm are going to know who it was who had to move out... and it would spread from there.

If they don't already, everyone will know who she is, and that she is trans.

[alphanumeric]

:roll: "sigh" Humans...

[rprince]

I love Tgirls to death , but I don't think this is even close to civil rights case. You have a choice to be who you are, it's not a choice to be African descent and dark. What people must understand is that, it's a MALE, living in a dorm with GIRLS!. Please look beyond being bias. Even if he gets the operation by birth it is a male. Tsgirls have their right just as people who don't particate in that type of life style. You shoulnd't sneak and lie about who you are. Parents are not going for TsGirls living in their dorms with their female daughters, it just don't seem right. No males who are into that Tsgirl is going to go for that either, TsGirl might get hurt. So the only alternative is TsGirls get a room together and or alone. TsGirls do have the right to education but don't have to right to share the same space with others who are not into that lifestyle and don't want to see that.

LIke I said I am looking at it from a stand point of what's right.

[tsntx]

but they (trans women) don't have to right to share the same space with others who are not into that lifestyle and don't want to see that.

LIke I said I am looking at it from a stand point of what's right.

some ppl just shouldnt open their mouths

so basically ure saying black men shouldnt be in the same dorm w/ white men

lesbians shouldnt be allowed to live w/ straight women

fags should have to live w/ fags only

wow... way to set the american mind set back to the '50's idiot :roll: :roll:

[SarahG]

I love Tgirls to death , but I don't think this is even close to civil rights case. You have a choice to be who you are, it's not a choice to be African descent and dark. What people must understand is that, it's a MALE, living in a dorm with GIRLS!. Please look beyond being bias. Even if he gets the operation by birth it is a male. Tsgirls have their right just as people who don't particate in that type of life style. You shoulnd't sneak and lie about who you are. Parents are not going for TsGirls living in their dorms with their female daughters, it just don't seem right. No males who are into that Tsgirl is going to go for that either, TsGirl might get hurt. So the only alternative is TsGirls get a room together and or alone. TsGirls do have the right to education but don't have to right to share the same space with others who are not into that lifestyle and don't want to see that.

LIke I said I am looking at it from a stand point of what's right.

No matter how you dice it the school fucked up.

Either they should have, from day one, put her in housing that accommodates her without it being a huge story/deal (even if its as simple as giving her a specific bathroom/shower to use)

OR they should have kept her where she was.

What happened is a lose lose for everyone, the school looks bad, the girl gets her social life ripped apart by her peers AND by the media coverage, and a huge issue is created when there need not have been one originally.

Honestly I don't get what the big deal is one way or another, lots and I mean lots of schools have co-ed dorms. My first year of college I shared a dorm room with 1 GG girl and 1 GB guy, how "separated" a dorm is, is just semantics. Some dorm buildings of some schools separate sex by floor, some by room, some by bathroom...

As to "choice," that's a load of crap. Honestly causation theory doesn't make one bit of a difference -regardless- rather or not you consider it a choice or a birth defect. We could debate this over and over and over again and it really won't change a thing, so it is a big moot point. I suppose you think preops should be, when incarcerated, just thrown in the general population of male facilities too right? :roll:

From everything I have read the girl never lied to anyone in charge, the school knew the complete situation and made decisions accordingly, and then modified those decisions once it became a heated issue for some people.

[peggygee]

I love Tgirls to death , but I don't think this is even close to civil rights case. You have a choice to be who you are, it's not a choice to be African descent and dark.

What people must understand is that, it's a MALE, living in a dorm with GIRLS!. Please look beyond being bias. Even if he gets the operation by birth it is a male. Tsgirls have their right just as people who don't particate in that type of life style.

You shoulnd't sneak and lie about who you are. Parents are not going for TsGirls living in their dorms with their female daughters, it just don't seem right. No males who are into that Tsgirl is going to go for that either, TsGirl might get hurt.

So the only alternative is TsGirls get a room together and or alone.
TsGirls do have the right to education but don't have to right to share the same space with others who are not into that lifestyle and don't want to see that.

LIke I said I am looking at it from a stand point of what's right.

It's not a choice, it's not something we do on a whim, it's not something
we do to merely satisfy the sexual desires of others, and it certainly
isn't a lifestyle.

It is who we are, and for many of us it is as genetically hardwired into our
DNA, and genetics as race could ever be.

I will concede that there are no easy answers, and it can be stressful on
all parties involved. This is a situation that we will see occuring more and
more around the world, and policies need to be put in place before the
situation arises and not after the fact.

And by the by, this is a peson under discussion, not an 'it'. And while she
currently may have male genitialia, after the SRS, she will be legally a
female, entitled under the law to all the rights and legal protection that
go along with that.


What people must understand is that, it's a MALE, living in a dorm with GIRLS!. Please look beyond being bias. Even if he gets the operation by birth it is a male.

[justatransgirl]

Below is my response to the Duke story - posted on the Ch 11 website.

They edited out the workd "penis..."

Sheesh,
TS Jamie

It never ceases to amaze me the ignorant reporting that continues to refer to transgendered people by their sex organ. Being transgendered is NOT about sex, sex organs or sexual orientation. It is about GENDER.

Obviously Duke University and Channel 11 have a long way to go toward joining the 21st Century and the continuing evolution of mankind.

Let's start with two black reporters (who probably are sensitive to racial slurs themselves) using gender slurs, referring to a TRANSGENDERED WOMAN, as a "man," on multiple occasions. Terms like "urgent meeting," "disturbing news," concerned father."

The man interviewed was "shocked" and "outraged" I feel so sorry for his sad ignorant bigoted life. What does he think that the transgendered girl was going to rape his daughter in the shower or bust in with a pass key to watch her pee? Sheesh, get a life dude.

The ignorance that persists in this country amazes me.

My transsexual partner and I are "outraged." We are outraged that Duke and this TV station would treat a human being this way. The man and his daughter should have been told they could go live off campus if they didn't like the neighbors.

NONE of you have though about the effects this has probably had on the student in question, who quite probably is dealing with other trans related issues and has now been embarrassed on national TV and the internet.

How would you feel if you were treated that way? If people talked about you like that? What if she commits suicide because of this man's bigotry, and the schools failure to protect her rights?

How could a father act that way toward a girl, trans or otherwise? How does his daughter feel about her father acting this way? How embarrassed she must feel, and if she isn't we are embarrassed for her.

Then let's go the fact that just to sign up on this discriminatory web site I was given a choice between male or female.

I am neither. I am a TRANSSEXUAL. I am part boy, part girl, part both and part neither. I live as a woman. My ID says I'm a woman, my driver’s license, my passport.

I am a transsexual woman who happens to have a penis that's all. It's really immaterial to me; it doesn't affect who I am or how I react to others. It doesn't make me a "man."

But yet Channel 11 gives me no option, I am forced to chose male or female. I challenge your station to add a provision right now for transgendered people who sign up on your site.

My partner is a 23 year old transgendered female senior at a University of CA campus. We live off campus but I know the dorms are co-ed.

We both used to live in NC. I lived in Fayetteville when I was a member of the 82nd Airborne. My partner lived in New Bern. (So please don't tell me about California liberalism.)

Folks thanks to the advance of modern medicine there is now a third gender that was previously kept hidden. We no longer live secret lives; we will no longer tolerate the abuse of people like Mr. Chaucery, Duke, and Ch 11. We are here, we are not going away - we are the evolution of mankind.

Deal with it.

[tsntx]

to ts jamie

:peanutbutter :peanutbutter :peanutbutter :peanutbutter :peanutbutter :peanutbutter :peanutbutter :peanutbutter :peanutbutter :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :claps :rock2 :rock2 :rock2 :rock2 :rock2 :rock2 :rock2 :rock2 :rock2 :rock2 :rock2 :jerkoff :jerkoff :jerkoff :jerkoff :jerkoff

if we were all in a room together i would be standing and clapping right now!

[justatransgirl]

I love Tgirls to death , but I don't think this is even close to civil rights case. You have a choice to be who you are, it's not a choice to be African descent and dark. What people must understand is that, it's a MALE, living in a dorm with GIRLS!. Please look beyond being bias. Even if he gets the operation by birth it is a male. Tsgirls have their right just as people who don't particate in that type of life style. You shoulnd't sneak and lie about who you are. Parents are not going for TsGirls living in their dorms with their female daughters, it just don't seem right. No males who are into that Tsgirl is going to go for that either, TsGirl might get hurt. So the only alternative is TsGirls get a room together and or alone. TsGirls do have the right to education but don't have to right to share the same space with others who are not into that lifestyle and don't want to see that.

LIke I said I am looking at it from a stand point of what's right.

Sweetie that is just about the most clueless thing I've read on this site.

Do you really think transsexuals have a choice? Do you think we would choose this life? To be treated the way this girl was? Do you really think we are being dishonest?

Sweetie according to the state and Federal Govt I am a female. My DL and passport says so - so I have a penis. I'm not dishonest about it. It just doesn't define my GENDER anymore than a woman who's had breast cancer is any less of a woman because she doesn't have boobs.

You think this is a "lifestyle or fetish?" Maybe your fetish for T-girl sex or t-girl porn is a lifestyle for you but it's not for most of us. Most of us on this site make our living providing for your porn fetish, and there's nothing wrong with your interest or our profiting from it.

We love you and your money - but it's not the way we live. Please honey you need to learn a LOT more about transsexuals.

Sheesh,
TS Jamie

[peggygee]

In North Carolina there are statewide anti-discrimination laws, but they do
not clearly include sexual orientation or gender identity. State hate
crimes laws also do not include sexual orientation or gender identity.

If discrimination, harassment, or a hate crime happens to you or
someone you know, please call the Gay and Lesbian National Hotline at 1-
888-THE-GLNH (843-4564) for help and support, or click here. No one
deserves harassment or should have to put up with it.

Here also is the Duke University gender identity policy:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/dukediscrimination2.jpg

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Chauncey says he doesn't have a problem with transgenders. He just doesn't think it's appropriate for an individual who right now is still a man  to live in a dorm like a woman. "And would be using the facilities for the women,"

I agree with the above statement. If the person is STILL male then I dont see why he should be allowed in an all female dormitories. We know that there are m to f tg's that transitions because they have that "lesbian" fantasies and wants to be intimate with women (creepy nonetheless). Who is to say that the m to f tg is sexually straight and is attracted to men? There were no indications of that thus far. ;)

Shower and bathroom facilities should well be protected either it's a male or female bathroom facility. Sorry just my two cents!

~Kisses.

HTG

[justatransgirl]

Great post Peggy - I never thought of that.

I guess Duke isnt' one of the top 20 glbt friendly schools anymore...

I reposted it to the TV stations web site along with a suggestion that maybe they would like to ask Duke why they didn't follow their own anti-discrimination policy.

United we stand,
TS Jamie :-)

[justatransgirl]

Chauncey says he doesn't have a problem with transgenders. He just doesn't think it's appropriate for an individual who right now is still a man  to live in a dorm like a woman. "And would be using the facilities for the women,"

I agree with the above statement. If the person is STILL male then I dont see why he should be allowed in an all female dormitories. We know that there are m to f tg's that transitions because they have that "lesbian" fantasies and wants to be intimate with women (creepy nonetheless). Who is to say that the m to f tg is sexually straight and is attracted to men? There were no indications of that thus far. ;)

Shower and bathroom facilities should well be protected either it's a male or female bathroom facility. Sorry just my two cents!

~Kisses.

HTG

Hi Hara, I have to respectfully disagree with you dear.

First of all how is a TS "still" a male? I don't know about you honey, but I'm a transgendered woman.

And we are assuming the person in question isn't pulling a "fast one" to try to infiltrate the girls dorm to steal panties in the dark.

Before Jessica and I met she was rooming with two other girls and two boys in a college housing apartment. Nobody cared that she had a penis. She's a girl. But she's a very "passable" girl. To her it's a non-issue. They did ask the other kids if they were cool with it. They didn't ask the parents.

The kids are legal adults, their parents have no right to meddle in the first place. You notice this whole thing is brought about by a bigoted man, NOT the daughter or any other girl in the dorm.

Certainly appearance is important to acceptance. And none of us actually knows what this person at Duke looks like and we are assuming she presents as female. But if she identifies as TS (the story stated she was on hormones) according to the standards we have come to support then to deny her the rights accorded her gender, regardless of her appearance is discrimination.

As for "protecting" bathrooms? How many times have you seen a vagina in a ladies room? I doubt Duke University makes the kids use open showers in the dorms. I would expect there are at least individual shower stalls like at the gym, or just regular bathrooms for each dorm room. I'm pretty sure nobody would be forced to look at anothers genetalia.

I'll bet if the girls were polled they would mostly say they either didn't care or supported the TG person's right to be there. And if not, well my friends we have a LOT of work to do.

Anyway, not trying to tear you up Hara, just presenting additional info for consideration.

Hugs,
TS Jamie

[Felicia Katt]

TsGirls do have the right to education but don't have to right to share the same space with others who are not into that lifestyle and don't want to see that.

LIke I said I am looking at it from a stand point of what's right.
you are so wrong that you would need the Hubble telescope to look at it from the standpoint of whats right. Duke acted on one parent's ignorant, bigoted complaints to the very serious detriment of a student's rights. Her college experience has been ruined. If you substitute anything else into your flawed, narrow minded analysis, it shows just how wrong it is.

Jewish girls do have the right to education but don't have to right to share the same space with others who are not into that lifestyle and don't want to see that.

Handicapped girls do have the right to education but don't have to right to share the same space with others who are not into that lifestyle and don't want to see that.

Poor girls do have the right to education but don't have to right to share the same space with others who are not into that lifestyle and don't want to see that.

Lesbians do have the right to education but don't have to right to share the same space with others who are not into that lifestyle and don't want to see that.

Colleges are supposed to open minds, not cower and capitulate to closed ones.

FK

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Hi Hara, I have to respectfully disagree with you dear.

First of all how is a TS "still" a male? I don't know about you honey, but I'm a transgendered woman.

See this is the thing..Thee article is NOT about YOU! I am not here to contest wether you are a girl or NOT? I was talking about the person involved. There were no pictures of said individual hence his or her passability is questionable and hearsay.


And we are assuming the person in question isn't pulling a "fast one" to try to infiltrate the girls dorm to steal panties in the dark.

The reality is just that! Look around tg sites and you will stumble upon pagers and pages of non passable tg's who are into women not men! ;)


Before Jessica and I met she was rooming with two other girls and two boys in a college housing apartment. Nobody cared that she had a penis. She's a girl. But she's a very "passable" girl. To her it's a non-issue. They did ask the other kids if they were cool with it. They didn't ask the parents.

Again, I MUST "stress" that this isnt about YOU or Jessica sweety. You or Jess isnt the individual talked about on thee article. Stop assuming or taking a stand in behalf of someone whom we dont really know muchless has seen. For all we know there might be underlying reason why this became an ISSUE in the first place. :P


The kids are legal adults, their parents have no right to meddle in the first place.

To that I agree though. ;)


Certainly appearance is important to acceptance. And none of us actually knows what this person at Duke looks like

You said it yourself..BINGO! LOL


and we are assuming she presents as female. But if she identifies as TS (the story stated she was on hormones) according to the standards we have come to support then to deny her the rights accorded her gender, regardless of her appearance is discrimination.

Yes you are right. But really the bottom line is simple. If you want to live as a female then do all the work neccessary and try to pass. If you dont then things like this would always happen. Being a TS is more than just a state of mind but a state of being as well. If he or she lived with friends like in a co-op apt setting then it wouldnt be much of an issue really. But to insist on being put in the girls dorm is wrong IMO. The resident should have a say in this dont you think?


I'll bet if the girls were polled they would mostly say they either didn't care

Well that's all assumption. Not every girl would want to share their space with us. It's sad but a fact. There might be some who are openminded and are accepting but each and every girl is molded and brought up differently. Cant really generalize girls are all the same - accepting. Especially when they dont even understand what transgenderism really is.


Anyway, not trying to tear you up Hara, just presenting additional info for consideration.

Hugs,
TS Jamie

No offense taken. Just speaking the truth and facts of life. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[SarahG]

Well that's all assumption. Not every girl would want to share her space with us. It's sad but a fact. There might be some who are openminded and accepting but each and every girl is molded and brought up differently. Cant really generalize girls are all the same - accepting. especially when they dont even understand what transgenderism really is.

I would have to agree alot with this. I don't know how large that dorm is but I think it would be far fetched to assume not a single girl in that dorm is unaccepting of a preop in the same facility.

Girls can have the same misconceptions, bigotted positions and so on as guys. Ever seen the makeup of some of the extremist fundamentalist christian groups? 'enough said there.

[peggygee]

Well that's all assumption. Not every girl would want to share her space with us. It's sad but a fact. There might be some who are openminded and accepting but each and every girl is molded and brought up differently. Cant really generalize girls are all the same - accepting. especially when they dont even understand what transgenderism really is.

I would have to agree alot with this. I don't know how large that dorm is but I think it would be far fetched to assume not a single girl in that dorm is unaccepting of a preop in the same facility.

Girls can have the same misconceptions, bigotted positions and so on as guys. Ever seen the makeup of some of the extremist fundamentalist christian groups? 'enough said there.

I agree that all parties involved with this didn't
seem to have fully thought out the logistics
and ramifications.

But my question is when would it be appropriate for
a transwoman to be in a traditionally all female
environment (dorm, locker room, changing room,
bathroom, etc).

Is it after she has begun her transition, begun HRT,
had cosmetic surgery, or must she wait until she has
had full GRS.

And if one of the requirements of the Benjamin
Standards Of Care is that a person must live in
their adopted gender, how do we as a society
accomodate that.

[peggygee]

Great post Peggy - I never thought of that.

I guess Duke isnt' one of the top 20 glbt friendly schools anymore...

I reposted it to the TV stations web site along with a suggestion that maybe they would like to ask Duke why they didn't follow their own anti-discrimination policy.

United we stand,
TS Jamie :-)

Your's was a well thought out and articulated response as well. :wink:

By the by, I would like to point out to the forum, it's tranwomen, and
our allies, that not only do we need to discuss these issues amongst
ourselves, but we need to respond to the mainstream and media outlets
as well.

Just as we share information, and educate one another here, we need to
be doing that with those whose exposure to us is fairly limited, and may
be be misinformed, as well

To just discuss it amongst ourselves is to be 'preaching to the choir'.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/blackchoir.jpg

We've got to reach out to the whole congregation.

[SarahG]

And if one of the requirements of the Benjamin
Standards Of Care is that a person must live in
their adopted gender, how do we as a society
accomodate that.

Have you considered the possibility that some parts of the SoC may be kaput?

Just because the SoC says something, doesn't mean every trans patient should be stuck to the protocol, to the word. Some strict interpritationists believe the SoC requires girls never tell their partners in sex/dating/etc that they're trans and this board certainly has had debates on that issue.

Personally I find the whole idea of RLE fundamentally flawed due to the fact that it doesn't take appearances into consideration. Someone who can't pass as a girl at all, certainly is not going to with RLE, expierence "life as a women"... it just can't be done logistically. Everything as simple as going to the grocery store for such people is not as it would be for GGs, but as it is for our society for people who stand out in this way.

Now I am not saying that the duke situation should have onfolded the way it did. Just because a student(s) or their parent(s) have a problem with someone in a dorm facility because of what they are, doesn't mean the school HAD to cater to it. If it was just a few kids with the problem, they could have been told to leave or moved to an other dorm or whatever else.

Duke is a private institution, if someone doesn't like the way they operate, they are free to chose to go somewhere else to do business with.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

This issue is similar to this one actually:

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=22297&highlight=hara

http://www.cruelandunusualfilm.com/images/press.jpg
Where the tg complained being put in an all male jail cell.

Same difference to me. If I had a daughter or a son, I would for sure be worried and alarmed about them being in the same housing/apt as the tg. Ive nothing against tg's per se (I am one) but knowing how alot of tg's are..their lifestyle, sexual behavior and such..I wouldnt want my daughter or son to emulate and behave like that (no offense). Now, If they were over 21 y.o. then that's their choice and business. Until then I own the air they breathe. LOL But seriously, I symphatize more with the teens and their parents in this respect.

If you were a parent wouldnt you be just as concerned as them?

~Kisses.

HTG

[peggygee]

This issue is similar to this one actually:

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=22297&highlight=hara

http://www.cruelandunusualfilm.com/images/press.jpg
Where the tg complained being put in an all male jail cell.

Same difference to me. If I had a daughter or a son, I would for sure be worried and alarmed about them being in the same housing/apt as the tg. Ive nothing about tg's per se (I am one) but knowing how alot of tg's are..their lifestyle, sexual behavior and such..I wouldnt want my daughter or son to emulate and behave like that (no offense). Now, If they were over 21 y.o. then that's their choice and business. Until then I own the air tey breathe. LOL But seriously, I symphatize more with the teens and their parents in this respect.

If you were a parent wouldnt you be just as concerned as them?

~Kisses.

HTG




Same difference to me. If I had a daughter or a son, I would for sure be worried and alarmed about them being in the same housing/apt as the tg.

Ive nothing about tg's per se (I am one) but knowing how alot of tg's are..their lifestyle, sexual behavior and such..I wouldnt want my daughter or son to emulate and behave like that (no offense). Now, If they were over 21 y.o. then that's their choice and business.

Hara, that is a very interesting statement, particularly as you have
pointed out coming from a transwoman.

I'm curious what is the type of behavior that you would be concerned
about your child emulating.

Do you feel that transpeople lead an immoral lifestyle. Is it a matter of
sexual promiscuousness, is that type of activity limited to an particular
demographic, is it age, is it drug related.

Does your level of concern carry over to gay, lesbian, and bisxual
dorm mates as well.

And I will admit, I have tried to put myself in the shoes of the parents,
and judging fom all the transwomen, I have known I must admit I am
struggling with an answer also.

Have we also bought into the sterotypes that society has painted of us?

[tsntx]

Have we also bought into the sterotypes that society has painted of us?

sounds like someone is and i for one am really sad to read that she feels that way.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I really dont believe much of "stereotypes" Peg. But I will say this tho, As a transexual woman myself and growing up around other transfolks.. I do know that the percentage of sexual promiscuity is high and rampant in our community rivalling that of the gay community.

I also acknowledge that this is also evidently present in the heterosexual realms but in my experience it's 2x as much or maybe more in our community. Reason being is this: In our community, not alot of men would openly date a transgendered girl as opposed to..well you get where Im going with this..LOL

Immoral lifestyle or not, who am I to judge? But I do recognize and accept what I know as facts. ;)

No offense tho to fellow transisters!

~Kisses.

HTG

[SarahG]

I bumped the other thread mentioned in this one with a response.

One thing with the Duke story is that Duke is a private college. If people don't like the way Duke runs Duke, they are free to go to any number of the other (public or private) institutions in this country (we certainly have more than a few...).

Would these parents be throwing the same fits if this were a coed dorm without sex separation for rooms/floors/buildings? I think they would be.... the argument of 'concern for th kids' assumes this would be a problem even if the facility was being shared by both GGs and GBs. Even IF the stereotypes are all, and I mean every one of them- correct about us, what is essentially being advocated for with this argument is never allowing trans students to share facilities with GGs -even- in cases where GBs are able to do so.

I find the 21 age reference illogical... are you saying that you can at 18 fight in war, vote in political elections, own property... and yet not be able to dictate one's own living arrangements in terms of roommates?

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I find the 21 age reference illogical... are you saying that you can at 18 fight in war, vote in political elections, own property... and yet not be able to dictate one's own living arrangements in terms of roommates?

I feel I need to address and clear this part SarahG. You see, I came from a different cultural background where until you're 21 you are considered a minor. Hence, only after turning 21 can you make decisions for yourself. Until then your parents do much of the decision making in our culture (You are FREE to choose what school you'd like to get into, what course you'd like to take up, which friends to hang out with etc.)..especially when it is your parents paying for school. LOL It sounds weird I know but it's true. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[SarahG]

I find the 21 age reference illogical... are you saying that you can at 18 fight in war, vote in political elections, own property... and yet not be able to dictate one's own living arrangements in terms of roommates?

I feel I need to adress this part SarahG. You see, I came from a different cultural background where until you're 21 you are considered a minor. Hence, only after turning 21 can you make decisions for yourself. Until then your parents do much of the desicion making in our culture and especially when it is your parents paying for school. LOL It sounds weird I know but it's true. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

I admit it isn't very clear cut here by any means of the imagination. We have this giant gray area from like 12 to 15/16 for instance where kids have no (or very little) consensual rights yet are tried as adults if they do anything bad (personally I don't see how you can have it both ways, either you are an adult or you aren't...).

But your response makes me pose this question, if a kid is paying for their own education by themselves (through whatever means including personal loans), do the parents still have the (legal or otherwise) ability to step in and meddle in their affairs against the kid's will?

[biguy4tvtscd]

The scariest comment I've heard in this whole ordeal, comes from KERPLUK01 on the ABC11.com forum....


I realize this is a free country and people can do what they want. I choose to be ignorant to this topic

That right there, is an attitude all too endemic to this country, and it is destroying us from within.





Oh, and even though this isn't about the TG, I felt compelled to respond to this as well.....


Pretty sad that being a drunken jock hiring and mistreating strippers is acceptable, and simply being transgendered is not

Maybe you stopped following the story 3 days after it broke, but the stripper made it all up.

I know it's popular to hate the Duke lacrosse players because they're white, rich, and privileged. However, despite what the majority of people would like to believe, that does not automatically make them guilty.
They have since been exonerated of all charges. Once again, I repeat, the stripper made it all up

If you don't believe me, just ask former DA Mike Nifong, after he's done picking up the pieces of his shattered career, he'll tell you.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

It depends on any given situation I guess. If it has something to do with hanging out with the wrong crowd and being exposed to drug use, heavy drinking, promiscuity (untimely and unexpected pregnancy could ruin your kids future) etc. that also contributes to their failing grades why ofcourse! Im sure most parents are on-guard for signs of self destruction (that doesnt mean they could detect these signs early on tho). ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[SarahG]

It depends on any given situation I guess. If it has something to do with hanging out with the wrong crowd and being exposed to drug use, heavy drinking, promiscuity (untimely and unexpected pregnancy could ruin your kids future) etc. that also contributes to their failing grades why ofcourse! Im sure most parents are on-guard for signs of self destruction (that doesnt mean they could detect these signs early on tho). ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

How far would these extend? Parents could see any number of things (falsely or otherwise) as destructive behavior based on societal norms or personal predispositions. Suppose a kid with religious family (fundamentalist christian or islamic- take your pick) and "goes athiest" or... even (gasp) converts to something else. Should the parents be able to freely step in and project their beliefs just because they procieve something to be wrong? I mean after all, economic downfall through a pregnancy is one thing, but these parents believe their kids deviations will lead to eternal damnation which I am going to guess (being atheist), is worse.

Intervention requires either all parties to be willing, or for one party to legally be unable to consent against the course of action. I shudder to think of the courts being used to keep everyone under 21 from following their own religions (or lack thereof) whenever it differs from their extremist or imposing parents.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I agree! It's safe to say it all depends on a case to case basis and what parents "themselves" values and considers mild (not a big deal), moderate (tolerable but deal with caution) or severe (unacceptable) types of self destructing behavioural patterns. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[SarahG]

The scariest comment I've heard in this whole ordeal, comes from KERPLUK01 on the ABC11.com forum....


I realize this is a free country and people can do what they want. I choose to be ignorant to this topic

That right there, is an attitude all too endemic to this country, and it is destroying us from within.

Bread & Circus... bread & circus.

In place of the gladiators and bread we have welfare/social security and "celebrities"/tv/movies...



I know it's popular to hate the Duke lacrosse players because they're white, rich, and privileged.

I always thought it were because lacrosse players are usually the most unrulely of jocks... you think the highschool football player stereotype is bad.



However, despite what the majority of people would like to believe, that does not automatically make them guilty.

It does in our system. Our system rather we intend or desire it to be this way or not operates on appearances.

Related: I saw an article on AP news a couple months back about the legal cases resulting in babies whom are killed by being left in cars every summer in this country.

The article found that, on the whole, Dads were barely punished compared to females in such cases. Females generally getting prison time (which was not usually the case with males) and usually got significantly longer sentences than the males whom were sent to prison. The article concluded that in our christian dominated country the double standard originates from the belief that the women are "doing gods work" and so it therefore must be worse when they fuck up.

The differences based on minor things like sex status, class, race all have real ramifications in the legal system. As to rather or not that means we need to abandon punishments (say the death penalty) or reform the system remains to be determined.



If you don't believe me, just ask former DA Mike Nifong, after he's done picking up the pieces of his shattered career, he'll tell you.

Since you bring up race, do you think this DA would have lost his job, been thrown in front of the ethics committee, and disbarred in that state had those accused NOT been rich, white, athletes?

[SarahG]

I agree! It's safe to say it all depends on a case to case basis and what parents "themselves" values and considers mild (not a big deal), moderate (tolerable but deal with caution) or severe (unacceptable) types of self destructing behavioural patterns. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

The problem is that this can't be so arbitrary. If we are to allow this, it sets a precedent and suddenly, with time it is no longer "case by case" but rather "appearances & similarities"

If we allow parents to step in every time their 18+ year old kid is suspected as being say, sexually active, then you also... with that precedent over time, allow parents to step in and destroy any relationship, marriage etc of kids in this same age group.

I guess it boils down to an accountibility thing. I am sure no parent wants to see their kid make a bad mistake, but there comes a point where the kid has to be responsible for their actions even if it results in life long problems (or worse).

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Yup! Experience is a good teacher. LOL We live and learn! ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[tg4me]

This is such a complicated subject even on a forum like this. You have some that are here for the eye candy alone. To me TG's are sex toys for my pleasure. I want to be Dominated by a pretty TG. I also want to play with 18 year old girls. That's as deep as Im trying to get. This is a porno site. You want to scare some parents, let them lurk on this site for a week or two! :shock: We may get to know one another after reading viewpoints over the months. Some in the NY area might even get to meet others in person...and dare I say change their impressions for the good or bad. But overall this is called HungAngels and is a porn site.
Some are here to educate and further their agenda. Using a doctrine put forth by groups that cater to their beliefs doesn't make them wrong or right. If you don't believe in their doctrine, you are ignorant in their eyes. In the same way, I don't fear the wrath of God and follow the bible because I'm not a believer. Those that believe, say they will pray for me.....OK thanks.
We also have the TG models here that want to be accepted in everyday life (like most of us). Yet if most of the "ignorant masses" knew of their lifestyle, they would care less about the TG part, but be more condemming of the porn lifestyle.
Even on a site like this, those that drool and spend much of their fantasy time thinking of the models here, would never consider taking them home to mom. Some would even lose their Jobs if they were "exposed" as having a TG for a freind. That's got to be heartbreaking for a TG person.
Many of the above have loaded guns ready to fire if you use the wrong PC word or fail to fall into their values. Others just like to stir up the hornets nest for fun. :roll:

So with that I try to answer the simple question, "Should a TG male be allowed to use the female dorm?" Can I form an answer that makes my point but offends none of the groups above? I don't think so. I do enjoy reading the responses though :wink:

[SarahG]

This is such a complicated subject even on a forum like this. You have some that are here for the eye candy alone. To me TG's are sex toys for my pleasure. I want to be Dominated by a pretty TG. I also want to play with 18 year old girls. That's as deep as Im trying to get. This is a porno site. You want to scare some parents, let them lurk on this site for a week or two! :shock: We may get to know one another after reading viewpoints over the months. Some in the NY area might even get to meet others in person...and dare I say change their impressions for the good or bad. But overall this is called HungAngels and is a porn site.
Some are here to educate and further their agenda. Using a doctrine put forth by groups that cater to their beliefs doesn't make them wrong or right. If you don't believe in their doctrine, you are ignorant in their eyes. In the same way, I don't fear the wrath of God and follow the bible because I'm not a believer. Those that believe, say they will pray for me.....OK thanks.
We also have the TG models here that want to be accepted in everyday life (like most of us). Yet if most of the "ignorant masses" knew of their lifestyle, they would care less about the TG part, but be more condemming of the porn lifestyle.
Even on a site like this, those that drool and spend much of their fantasy time thinking of the models here, would never consider taking them home to mom. Some would even lose their Jobs if they were "exposed" as having a TG for a freind. That's got to be heartbreaking for a TG person.
Many of the above have loaded guns ready to fire if you use the wrong PC word or fail to fall into their values. Others just like to stir up the hornets nest for fun. :roll:

So with that I try to answer the simple question, "Should a TG male be allowed to use the female dorm?" Can I form an answer that makes my point but offends none of the groups above? I don't think so. I do enjoy reading the responses though :wink:

Honestly what do your expect? Our culture (I didn't say country for a reason) was started by a separatist religious extremist group that, after trying numerous places in Europe, ended up having to go so far away that they thought they were outside any government jurisdiction (Mayflower Compact) where they setup shop to live their extremist, restrictive, oppressive ways. As time went on, anyone who deviated was tortured, killed, exiled... this is how Anglo America started in the North and we've been paying for it ever since.

[biguy4tvtscd]

Since you bring up race, do you think this DA would have lost his job, been thrown in front of the ethics committee, and disbarred in that state had those accused NOT been rich, white, athletes?

I'd like to think so.

I don't believe justice was served because the wrongly accused were white. I think justice was served because people shouted loud and long enough about their being wrongly accused and their being automatically assumed guilty because they were white, and rich.

Had they sat back and expected it just to happen on it's own, it may or may not have. Because they took their concerns to the press and the public, they basically forced the North Carolina Bar to do the right thing.

What's sad is that there seems to be little to no action being taken against the group of Duke professors who willingly signed away their credibility by attaching their name to a petition decrying he actions of the students. and all that before one piece of evidence was presented.

[tsntx]

b/c of this topic of the duke tg getting little or no help from what appears to be everyone against her... and knowing how it was for me in High School and countless others... i have contacted faculty of my former school and am headed there next week to try to implement some kind of protection/ group/ workshop etc for gay/bi/trans/straight students/parents/teachers/community members who want to help protect the rights of gay/bi/trans students and promote tolerance acceptance and safety for them... any ideas or information that i could use when i go to my meetings next week would GREATLY be appreciated... either here/ a new thread/ or a private message

thanx in advance -j

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I was NOT againts her personally. I was simply stating that one cannot simply "push/insist/demand" muchless "justify" that he or she be put in together with the girls in an all-female dormitory without causing much raucous. Doing that only caused him or her to be "identified" (self-outing) not only in campus as a tg but around the world as one.

While Yes I agree that he or she has a right to file a complain but others (like the girls who lives on that dorm and their families) has their right and say too! That's it. ;)

BTW, that is highly commendable Jen. I doubt there is much you can do but just the same goodluck! :P

~Kisses.

HTG

[tsntx]

well even implementing a gay/straight alliance in that school would be a milestone

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

well even implementing a gay/straight alliance in that school would be a milestone

True. Maybe a TG-friendly housing would be a good suggestion. Where the openly gay, lesbians and transgenders can all room together. If you ask me, all school and colleges should have one! ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[tsntx]

well even implementing a gay/straight alliance in that school would be a milestone

True. Maybe a TG-friendly housing would be a good suggestion. Where the openly gay, lesbians and transgenders can all room together. If you ask me, all school and colleges should have one! ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

lol its a High School of about 1500 MAX... it doesnt need housing it needs tollerance taught in all forms on all levels k-12 and actually beyond -j

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Lmao :lol: You lost me! I thought the post read:


Parents of some Duke University students responded with outrage when they found a transgender m to f was staying in an all girls dorm.

Duke moved the student to a dorm with a private bathroom to avoid problems.
Some people need to get a life.

So I *thought it's a college or uni. LOL

So they have dorms for highschool levels k-12 and beyond? Never heard of such sorry. LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

[tsntx]

Lmao :lol: You lost me! I thought the post read:


Parents of some Duke University students responded with outrage when they found a transgender m to f was staying in an all girls dorm.

Duke moved the student to a dorm with a private bathroom to avoid problems.
Some people need to get a life.

So I *thought it's a college or uni. LOL

So they have dorms for highschool levels k-12 and beyond? Never heard of such sorry. LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

*swoosh*

im NOT talking about duke... i said BECAUSE of what happened at duke uni i want to change and set up something at my old high school lol

[peggygee]

b/c of this topic of the duke tg getting little or no help from what appears to be everyone against her... and knowing how it was for me in High School and countless others... i have contacted faculty of my former school and am headed there next week to try to implement some kind of protection/ group/ workshop etc for gay/bi/trans/straight students/parents/teachers/community members who want to help protect the rights of gay/bi/trans students and promote tolerance acceptance and safety for them... any ideas or information that i could use when i go to my meetings next week would GREATLY be appreciated... either here/ a new thread/ or a private message

thanx in advance -j

Great idea. :wink:

Let's start a new thread, and I'll put on my thinking cap.

Before we head over, what state was your HS in?

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

LOL Alrighty. :lol: My bad. I kept focused on the Duke thing.

~Kisses.

HTG

[justatransgirl]

b/c of this topic of the duke tg getting little or no help from what appears to be everyone against her... and knowing how it was for me in High School and countless others... i have contacted faculty of my former school and am headed there next week to try to implement some kind of protection/ group/ workshop etc for gay/bi/trans/straight students/parents/teachers/community members who want to help protect the rights of gay/bi/trans students and promote tolerance acceptance and safety for them... any ideas or information that i could use when i go to my meetings next week would GREATLY be appreciated... either here/ a new thread/ or a private message

thanx in advance -j

Hey girl - absolutely great idea. You are a fabulous lady! I wish you the best.

What if we ALL did that? What if we all went back to our old schools to ensure equal protections. Then we might get somewhere.

To ensure protection in bathrooms. To ensure education (not brainwashing, but education against hate for hates sake). To ensure there are policies in place. To ensure glbt youth have a place to connect with others.

The biggest thing that bugs me about being trans is the near total lack of support for kids and young adults. Yes it's better than when I was a kid - heck in San Diego until 1998 (only 9 years ago) it was ILLEGAL for a man to wear a dress. But there is a very long way to go.

In San Diego, a generally trans friendly place there is a youth center for those under 18. But the 18-24 year old range was summarily kicked out several years ago - and virtually every MtF TS that was using the center is now a prostitute.

Best luck dear,

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

LOL Silly, 9 years ago wouldnt make much of a difference if like you've said:


I don't know about you honey, but I'm a transgendered woman.

LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[justatransgirl]

Something to remember on this Duke thread is that THEY REFUSED TO HONOR THEIR OWN ANTI-DISCRIMINATION POLICY.

Seems to me this is the point that should be questioned.

And they threw it out the window just because one man complained about his adult daughter. Why didn't the girl herself complain if she had an issue?

Huh,
TS Jamie :-)

[RangeHova]

As for "protecting" bathrooms? How many times have you seen a vagina in a ladies room? I doubt Duke University makes the kids use open showers in the dorms. I would expect there are at least individual shower stalls like at the gym, or just regular bathrooms for each dorm room. I'm pretty sure nobody would be forced to look at anothers genetalia.

I never lived in the dorms at my college but I would visit dorms of my friends and in the bathroom showers there was plenty of full nudity. It was very similar to going to your average gym locker room/shower. Plenty of people have no issue being nude in those kinds of places. I can understand why the students might be put off by walking into a shower only to find what may appear to be a male. Especially if that person is not at all passable.

I support the rights of all TS people but I think when it comes to living in an all female dorm that can be crossing the line. When that student had the option of picking a co-ed dorm or off campus housing it is almost like she was asking for trouble.

People do need to be more informed but there also has to be sensitible honest thinking on the part of transexual people. No matter how much we educate the general public, a lot of people won't be accepting. A lot of people will see you as your biological gender (especially if your physically appearance matches that gender).

[justatransgirl]

Hara, no offense taken honey - and I was just trying to equate examples earlier not to make it about me. It's just how I write, comment and example - reference my post on your "famous" thread... :-)

Hara makes a good point regarding "passability" it is hard for transwomen who don't pass. But should the point of transition be simply to change from male to female (vice versa) or is it in fact a third gender as I posted earlier?

I honestly don't know and personally I feel both ways. On one hand I'm a girl, on the other I'm a transsexual. I know I'm NOT a man. I'm fortunate that I pass well enough, though certainly not as well as Jessica or other younger girls.

But like Peggy said at what point is a trans person "allowed" to switch? After GRS? Why then? We still won't have a uterus. Does having a vagina / uterus / boobs make one a woman? Or is it a state of mind?

What about "non-op" TS's? Are they less trans? There is certainly a few of those on this site - are you not trans because you like your dick?

What about if a man, a person who identifies as male has a fetish, and has a sex change? Does that make him a woman?

What about a butch lesbian? Or an FtM? Are they women because they have a uterus AND a vagina? Or is an FtM not a man because she doesn't have a dick?

When does it change?

And who is to make the determination as to another's passability. Which brings up the SOC real life issue.

Why is it that society has to accept ones facial appearance in order for someone to make physical changes to their body nobody will ever see if they choose not to show it? Why should a stranger on the street have rule over the ability of a TS to have a sex change?

Points to ponder.

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

(I have a hair appt. back later... XOXOX)

[SarahG]

Something to remember on this Duke thread is that THEY REFUSED TO HONOR THEIR OWN ANTI-DISCRIMINATION POLICY.

Seems to me this is the point that should be questioned.

And they threw it out the window just because one man complained about his adult daughter. Why didn't the girl herself complain if she had an issue?

Huh,
TS Jamie :-)

As I mentioned, regardless which side of the situation you take: The school fucked up. Either they were wrong to put her in there, OR they were wrong to move her.

That is what makes me feel really sorry for this girl, its a story that need not have happened, which with the media coverage is doing who-knows what to her life on & off campus.

[SarahG]

When that student had the option of picking a co-ed dorm or off campus housing it is almost like she was asking for trouble.

Woah now, we have no idea rather or not she picked to go there. For all we know she went to the school, said "ok here is my situation" and they put her in the girls dorm as a response.

Just because a campus has coed dorms or singles does NOT mean they are easy to get into. Alot of schools distribute the "good" housing based on three things; seniority, athlete status, and gpa.

With Duke I know for a fact that a great deal of the housing is also based on affiliations which would make it even harder for a first or second year, medicore, nonathlete from getting the type of housing you describe.

To add sad irony to the mix, if she is at Duke with a scholarship covering or helping out with housing costs... she went into the situation thinking the school was doing her a favor. :banghead

We also don't know that she could afford off site housing, some places that is cheaper, some places its alot more expensive than dorm life.

In any case, because there is so much we don't know, we should try to be weary of assumptions especially when it makes her look like the bad party.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I never lived in the dorms at my college but I would visit dorms of my friends and in the bathroom showers there was plenty of full nudity. It was very similar to going to your average gym locker room/shower. Plenty of people have no issue being nude in those kinds of places. I can understand why the students might be put off by walking into a shower only to find what may appear to be a male. Especially if that person is not at all passable.

I support the rights of all TS people but I think when it comes to living in an all female dorm that can be crossing the line. When that student had the option of picking a co-ed dorm or off campus housing it is almost like she was asking for trouble.

People do need to be more informed but there also has to be sensitible honest thinking on the part of transexual people. No matter how much we educate the general public, a lot of people won't be accepting. A lot of people will see you as your biological gender (especially if your physically appearance matches that gender).

I agree with everything you've said Range. :P Though I guess Sarah made a valid point also (In reference to one's financial capabilities).

The school was wrong to put him/her there in the 1st place. And it has backfired back at them. I think moving him/her some other place where he/she has a private bathroom all works out in his/her favor in the end. Instead of having to deal with all the "drama" associated in living at an all female dorm. ;)

I know if I was in that position I would feel akward and generally not at ease if they sent me to live at an all female dormitory. I would ofcourse try and protect myself and in NOT letting the whole uni knows me as a transgender student. I would therefore seek off campus co-ed housing with friends or room and board type situation. My parents wouldnt subject me to that type of situation either and would pay for it if need be. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[RangeHova]

At a gym that I used to use there was a post-op who worked at the front desk. She ended up quiting because they would limit her duties when it came to going in the locker rooms, showers, suanas, etc. The fact is, while she was a legally female she looked, walked, sounded, and appeared to most everyone to be a man.

She couldn't see that women walking into a locker room and seeing what appeared to be a man to be an issue.

While I will support the rights and freedoms of any TS to live where they want and to work where they want there comes a line where yhour wants can impose on others. In a place like a public shower most of the girls on this board probably wouldn't cause an eyebrow to be raised. Not all TS women look like the girls on this board.

When it comes to public showers, locker rooms, all female housing/groups/sports you have to expect that there will be issues.

**Speaking of sports, it always seems like an unfair advantage for Rene Richards to compete against gentic women. Even with SRS and hormones there was an advantage based on genetics.

[peggygee]

Hara makes a good point regarding "passability" it is hard for transwomen who don't pass. But should the point of transition be simply to change from male to female (vice versa) or is it in fact a third gender as I posted earlier?

I honestly don't know and personally I feel both ways. On one hand I'm a girl, on the other I'm a transsexual. I know I'm NOT a man. I'm fortunate that I pass well enough, though certainly not as well as Jessica or other younger girls.

But like Peggy said at what point is a trans person "allowed" to switch? After GRS? Why then? We still won't have a uterus. Does having a vagina / uterus / boobs make one a woman? Or is it a state of mind?

What about "non-op" TS's? Are they less trans? There is certainly a few of those on this site - are you not trans because you like your dick?

What about if a man, a person who identifies as male has a fetish, and has a sex change? Does that make him a woman?

What about a butch lesbian? Or an FtM? Are they women because they have a uterus AND a vagina? Or is an FtM not a man because she doesn't have a dick?

When does it change?

And who is to make the determination as to another's passability. Which brings up the SOC real life issue.

Why is it that society has to accept ones facial appearance in order for someone to make physical changes to their body nobody will ever see if they choose not to show it? Why should a stranger on the street have rule over the ability of a TS to have a sex change?

Points to ponder.

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

(I have a hair appt. back later... XOXOX)


At a gym that I used to use there was a post-op who worked at the front desk. She ended up quiting because they would limit her duties when it came to going in the locker rooms, showers, suanas, etc. The fact is, while she was a legally female she looked, walked, sounded, and appeared to most everyone to be a man.

She couldn't see that women walking into a locker room and seeing what appeared to be a man to be an issue.

While I will support the rights and freedoms of any TS to live where they want and to work where they want there comes a line where yhour wants can impose on others. In a place like a public shower most of the girls on this board probably wouldn't cause an eyebrow to be raised. Not all TS women look like the girls on this board.

When it comes to public showers, locker rooms, all female housing/groups/sports you have to expect that there will be issues.

**Speaking of sports, it always seems like an unfair advantage for Rene Richards to compete against gentic women. Even with SRS and hormones there was an advantage based on genetics.

New York city, and a number of other places have mandated that a
person should utilize the rest rooms of the gender that they identify
with.

Other places say if you have a vagina, you get in.

But I get a sense that the reality of it does hinge to a large extent
on passability.

If a person with a 5 o'clock shadow, cheap wig, falsies, built like a
truck driver walks into a restroom, changing room, locker room, etc,
that I am in, I will admit that I will be uncomfortable.

Though for me the person wouldn't have to be 100% passable, but it
should be obvious that they are at least transitioning. However the
problem with that is just because a person looks somewhat passable,
it doesn't mean that they are trans.

The only solution unisex bathrooms.

We will have to figure out locker rooms,and changing rooms later.

And as much as I advocate a woman's right to GRS, ladies please,
please, please get laryngeal scraping, breast augmentation, electro,
etc, before even thinking about the twat.

[SarahG]

Given the debate this thread has seen, I have to pose this question:

What about public bathrooms? Do the people whom feel Duke was wrong the first time around think that preops must use male restrooms at say, airports, train stations, etc?

Should postops have to use male restrooms in public if they don't "pass" well enough?

Seems these arguments reach beyond living arrangements. I have heard that some states or local govs have problems with preops using female restrooms from a law standpoint. Before the power of the gate keeping gender clinics eroded away girls had to have "walking papers" to use as a get out of jail free card for being caught in a female restroom while preop, do we really want to go back to that kind of Orwellian existence?



While I will support the rights and freedoms of any TS to live where they want and to work where they want there comes a line where yhour wants can impose on others....

But is it still a want when the protocol of your medical treatments requires you to do these things?

You're making a weak case by suggesting that is a want/choice when its being used as a way of dictating who can, and who can not, transistion under the medical community's protocols (the SoC).

If anyone in this story is imposing onto others, it is Duke. They imposed their ways onto the GGs in this dorm by sending a preop there (right or wrong), then they imposed their ways onto the preop girl once people's parents threw a shit fit.



In a place like a public shower most of the girls on this board probably wouldn't cause an eyebrow to be raised. Not all TS women look like the girls on this board.

I agree appearances matter, and that is one way in which the medical community is just plain off base with the SoC.

Why should the medical community be requiring girls to go through RLE in order to obtain the treatments which would allow them to better pass in public?

But here is an other question for you: Some people, no matter how much surgery and hrt is thrown at them, will never be able to pass. Does the medical community and the law have an ethical duty to then step in to prevent them from transitioning?

I admit my gut is torn there, and I find that troubling. What I find more troubling in fact, is that IF you say YES.... then you give those who have problems with trans people a way to do great harm to us.

All they would have to do is prevent people from starting until a late age, an age old enough to make such passing impossible for MOST people.

Think that is too conspiracy-theory like? Think again, I have personally met medical professionals who worked in the gender clinics of the 60s and early 70s and they would, in their own words mind you- do everything in their power to keep people under 35 from transitioning. That is the history here. Now, why should the medical community be going out of their way to do harm to its patients?

The abandonment of the clinics and the erosion of the SoC's monopoly are a reaction to this and other issues... whenever anyone feels there aren't enough safe guards, not enough restrictions on "letting people transistion," we must remember whom it is to blame here.


**Speaking of sports, it always seems like an unfair advantage for Rene Richards to compete against gentic women. Even with SRS and hormones there was an advantage based on genetics.

As I have said in the past, the ONLY way you'll ever see public acceptance of trans people in sports is when it involves FtMs beating XY guys in competitions...

No MtF trans person will ever be able to have a sports career seen by the general public of having any value because any and all of their accomplishments would be dismissed as "merely the result of the fact that they weren't born with a vagina" :roll:

[Felicia Katt]

Maybe you stopped following the story 3 days after it broke, but the stripper made it all up.

I know it's popular to hate the Duke lacrosse players because they're white, rich, and privileged. However, despite what the majority of people would like to believe, that does not automatically make them guilty.
They have since been exonerated of all charges. Once again, I repeat, the stripper made it all up

If you don't believe me, just ask former DA Mike Nifong, after he's done picking up the pieces of his shattered career, he'll tell you.

This is from Wikpedia:
On March 13, 2006, a party was held at the residence of the captains of the Duke lacrosse team, a house that Duke University had recently purchased. The players were consuming alcohol at the party. They contacted Allure and requested two white strippers, but the women who arrived, Mangum and Roberts, were respectively black and half-Asian, half-black. One player asked if the dancers had any sex toys, and Roberts responded by asking if the player's penis was too small, according to the team captains. The player then took a broomstick and suggested that she use it for that purpose. This exchange of words abruptly stopped the performance, and both strippers went inside the home's bathroom. While the women were still in the bathroom, Seligmann and Finnerty left the house. The women came out, and Mangum roamed around the yard half-dressed and shouting.

Shortly before 1 AM, Mangum and Roberts entered their vehicle. A verbal altercation took place between the women and the team members.

Its not in the Wikipedia entry, but someone took and hid one of the girls purses while they were in the bathroom. It was found by the police when they executed a search warrant. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12115147/site/newsweek/

Read my post before you try to read the riot act to me, Big Guy. I said they hired strippers and mistreated them. I didn't say anything about crimes. That they weren't guilty of anything criminal doesn't make them innocents.

FK

[justatransgirl]

What about public bathrooms? Do the people whom feel Duke was wrong the first time around think that preops must use male restrooms at say, airports, train stations, etc?

Should postops have to use male restrooms in public if they don't "pass" well enough?

Seems these arguments reach beyond living arrangements. I have heard that some states or local govs have problems with preops using female restrooms from a law standpoint. Before the power of the gate keeping gender clinics eroded away girls had to have "walking papers" to use as a get out of jail free card for being caught in a female restroom while preop, do we really want to go back to that kind of Orwellian existence?

Good points Sarah and Peggy.

I personally had one of those "walking papers" and carried it up until a couple of years ago. I never had to use it.

Let me pose some more questions for you to consider. And these questions are part of the reason there is so much confusion when it comes to TG topics. What applies to one person may not apply to another.

If a person is born with a vagina and without a uterus or other female sex organ is she any less a woman? What if she had a very large clitoris?

What about intersex people? I personally know a trans woman who has female reproductive organs, ovaries, tubes, even (I think) an undeveloped uterus, but no vaginal canal. She was given surgery and testosterone treatments as a child to "fix" her and make her a man. So is she any less of a woman because she should have had a vagina and was force fed "T" to make her penis grow? Now she's a female TS who looks like a linebacker thanks to the steroids.

What I'm saying here is the accepted line that has been put forth in the past few years is that gender perception of the individual sets the precedent. NOT whether someone is uncomfortable with another persons appearance. NOT what the external genitalia is.

I see quite a few genetic women who are a heck of a lot more manly than I am (which is very good for my ego...giggle) but should they be denied the womans bathroom because they have to shave twice a day?

I agree Peggy - this conversation should be taken into the mainstream forums. We need to start facing these people on their own turf.

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

[peggygee]

You've asked a number of very important questions, and I'd like to
render an opinion:



Given the debate this thread has seen, I have to pose this question:

What about public bathrooms? Do the people whom feel Duke was wrong the first time around think that preops must use male restrooms at say, airports, train stations, etc?

Should postops have to use male restrooms in public if they don't "pass" well enough?

Seems these arguments reach beyond living arrangements. I have heard that some states or local govs have problems with preops using female restrooms from a law standpoint. Before the power of the gate keeping gender clinics eroded away girls had to have "walking papers" to use as a get out of jail free card for being caught in a female restroom while preop, do we really want to go back to that kind of Orwellian existence?



While the law in some jurisdictions protects tranwomen in using the
appropriate restroom, the reality is that if they don;t pass they may
receive flak.

To remedy this, educating the public will be required, or the unisex
restrooms I mentioned upthread may be an options. Being post op,
and whipping out your vagina, to convince someone of your gender
won't fly. Once upon a time it might have, but with the public being
aware of all of these medical avancements, that won't suffice.





While I will support the rights and freedoms of any TS to live where they want and to work where they want there comes a line where yhour wants can impose on others....

But is it still a want when the protocol of your medical treatments requires you to do these things?

You're making a weak case by suggesting that is a want/choice when its being used as a way of dictating who can, and who can not, transistion under the medical community's protocols (the SoC).

If anyone in this story is imposing onto others, it is Duke. They imposed their ways onto the GGs in this dorm by sending a preop there (right or wrong), then they imposed their ways onto the preop girl once people's parents threw a shit fit.



In a place like a public shower most of the girls on this board probably wouldn't cause an eyebrow to be raised. Not all TS women look like the girls on this board.




I agree appearances matter, and that is one way in which the medical community is just plain off base with the SoC.

Why should the medical community be requiring girls to go through RLE in order to obtain the treatments which would allow them to better pass in public?

But here is an other question for you: Some people, no matter how much surgery and hrt is thrown at them, will never be able to pass. Does the medical community and the law have an ethical duty to then step in to prevent them from transitioning?

I admit my gut is torn there, and I find that troubling. What I find more troubling in fact, is that IF you say YES.... then you give those who have problems with trans people a way to do great harm to us.

All they would have to do is prevent people from starting until a late age, an age old enough to make such passing impossible for MOST people.

Think that is too conspiracy-theory like? Think again, I have personally met medical professionals who worked in the gender clinics of the 60s and early 70s and they would, in their own words mind you- do everything in their power to keep people under 35 from transitioning. That is the history here. Now, why should the medical community be going out of their way to do harm to its patients?

The abandonment of the clinics and the erosion of the SoC's monopoly are a reaction to this and other issues... whenever anyone feels there aren't enough safe guards, not enough restrictions on "letting people transistion," we must remember whom it is to blame here.



While I feel that the Bejamin Standards Of Care (SoC's) are very
useful guidlines, tranwomen, and there healthcare providers
should be aware of them, the reality is that unless you are going
through a insurance company, or socialized medicine, they aren''t
always rigidly adhered to.

Today with the Internet, porous borders, international travel, and
more doctors willing to perform cosmetic procedures, there are many
ways around them.

Basically the genie is out of the bottle, and people do not want the
medical establishment playing God with their gender choices.

This shouldn't mean that we become our own doctors, and adopt
physician heal thy self' as our mantra, but more people are
becoming part of their healthcare team, and impacting their healtcare
decisions.

However, much like the adage about someone who has themself as
a lawyer, then they have a fool for a client, we need to exercise due
diligence, and be informed and educated.

[peggygee]

Good points Sarah and Peggy.

I personally had one of those "walking papers" and carried it up until a couple of years ago. I never had to use it.

Let me pose some more questions for you to consider. And these questions are part of the reason there is so much confusion when it comes to TG topics. What applies to one person may not apply to another.

If a person is born with a vagina and without a uterus or other female sex organ is she any less a woman? What if she had a very large clitoris?

What about intersex people? I personally know a trans woman who has female reproductive organs, ovaries, tubes, even (I think) an undeveloped uterus, but no vaginal canal. She was given surgery and testosterone treatments as a child to "fix" her and make her a man. So is she any less of a woman because she should have had a vagina and was force fed "T" to make her penis grow? Now she's a female TS who looks like a linebacker thanks to the steroids.

What I'm saying here is the accepted line that has been put forth in the past few years is that gender perception of the individual sets the precedent. NOT whether someone is uncomfortable with another persons appearance. NOT what the external genitalia is.

I see quite a few genetic women who are a heck of a lot more manly than I am (which is very good for my ego...giggle) but should they be denied the womans bathroom because they have to shave twice a day?

I agree Peggy - this conversation should be taken into the mainstream forums. We need to start facing these people on their own turf.

Hugs,
TS Jamie :-)

Thanks sweety.

Well the short answer to all of this, is that determining who is male and
female, isn't as simple as who has an 'innie and who has an outie'. :smh

[justatransgirl]

Well the short answer to all of this, is that determining who is male and
female, isn't as simple as who has an 'innie and who has an outie'. :smh

Exactly...

Hugs, J :-)

[justatransgirl]

PS - Save that one folks it's the shortest post I've ever made, possibly will ever make...

Giggle,
TS Jamie

[tsntx]

sorry i got distracted when i went and got a new car lol... BMW's can suck after a certain mileage... anyway... peggy and jamie thnx for the support... so what should i do to get resorces started? -j

[SarahG]

.. BMW's can suck after a certain mileage...

You've got that right. Jags are even worse.

[tsntx]

.. BMW's can suck after a certain mileage...

You've got that right. Jags are even worse.

sux that they dont make cars like they used to... i was riding around in a ginormous 67 caddy the other day and that car was amazing... it said "12k" miles but who knows how many times it rolled over... that crap could never happen now a days -j :roll:

[SarahG]

.. BMW's can suck after a certain mileage...

You've got that right. Jags are even worse.

sux that they dont make cars like they used to... i was riding around in a ginormous 67 caddy the other day and that car was amazing... it said "12k" miles but who knows how many times it rolled over... that crap could never happen now a days -j :roll:

Trust me, some of these brands were just as bad that far back.

Early 60s Jags are totally unreliable, for someone to own one they either need to enjoy doing their own work OR not mind having it constantly in & out of the shop.

[sucka4chix]

Wow. Lotsa words. Lotsa posts just to reiterate my point made a while ago. There has to be a change in the way we classify gender. Possibly acknowledging a third sex is the anwser. Everyone will never agree on when a transitioner is actually acceptable as the gender they're transitioning to. Some will say never. I just think it's ridiculous for a pre-op TS to be saddled with ID that says male and to be treated like a male, especially if the only male thing about them is hidden between their legs!
I empathize with women who might not want a TG in their shower,(although this case WAS NEVER ABOUT THAT. I've not heard one comment from a resident in that dorm...only parents). But males would feel the same way. So where do you put the TGs???? Ultimately that's the question. So many seem to know where they shouldn't be...OK.... Where SHOULD they be?

[peggygee]

sorry i got distracted when i went and got a new car lol... BMW's can suck after a certain mileage... anyway... peggy and jamie thnx for the support... so what should i do to get resorces started? -j

You're most welcome.

HAppy for you on your new car.

As to the high school info, I'd say start a new thread,
so that we can get the HA brain trust in on it, plus
this thread would take that one on a tangent.

Though I have one foot in the bed, it is on my to-do
list - 'children are the future'.

[Felicia Katt]

Wow. Lotsa words. Lotsa posts just to reiterate my point made a while ago. There has to be a change in the way we classify gender. Possibly acknowledging a third sex is the anwser. Everyone will never agree on when a transitioner is actually acceptable as the gender they're transitioning to. Some will say never. I just think it's ridiculous for a pre-op TS to be saddled with ID that says male and to be treated like a male, especially if the only male thing about them is hidden between their legs!
I empathize with women who might not want a TG in their shower,(although this case WAS NEVER ABOUT THAT. I've not heard one comment from a resident in that dorm...only parents). But males would feel the same way. So where do you put the TGs???? Ultimately that's the question. So many seem to know where they shouldn't be...OK.... Where SHOULD they be?
wrong then, wrong now.

FK

[peggygee]

wrong then, wrong now.

FK

Very powerful imagery.

It pretty much states the case.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/segregated.jpg

And I could be wrong, but the one for 'straight' looks alot better
than the one for 'trans'.

So much for seperate but equal.

[RangeHova]

BMW's can suck after a certain mileage.

Wow, I actualy have had incredible luck with high mileage BMWSs. I had one that had over 350k that ran like new and it wasn't even babied. I meet other older BMW owners whenever I drive my old BMWs and hear so many stories of very high miles on them.

[tsntx]

BMW's can suck after a certain mileage.

Wow, I actualy have had incredible luck with high mileage BMWSs. I had one that had over 350k that ran like new and it wasn't even babied. I meet other older BMW owners whenever I drive my old BMWs and hear so many stories of very high miles on them.

mines WAY under that and has been in and out of shop last 6 months after spending a lil over 8k on it im tired of wasting money and would have rather put that 8k in a new car... but since i didnt i got a new car thats not as nice as im used to but im very happy for now w/ it lol -j

[SarahG]

That's the problem with alot of European brands; they need to have their muffler bearings replaced more often.

[justatransgirl]

Sorry to continue the thread hijack (well not really...) :-)

But what kind of car did you get Jen?

And not being one of the rich girls on this site - cause I'm putting my partner through school on an escorts salary so that I can retire and sponge off her the rest of my life...

I drive a Mitsubishi Lancer - you know the little rice rocket? So far it's cost me over $700 in speeding tickets... It unfortunately only has two speeds, stop and 85... It's also the most stolen car in America so I'm always amazed it's still in my parking space in the morning. (We live in a guarded complex, don't be getting any ideas anyone...) -giggle-

I also have a 1980, Ford F-100 pick-up. I completely restored it and use it to tow my boat and work my polishing arm...

Giggle,
TS Jamie