Are Gays and Lesbians LESS accepting of Transgender?

[Kriss]

This woman is so full of shit, i don't know where to start., i'm too tired so you can all rip into her instead...............

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/julie_bindel/2007/08/my_trans_mission.html

[TJT]

I've run into a lot of gay men who are. Those types of gay men seem to lump TS's and drag queens together as a group that gives them a bad image.

[TJT]

BTW,Kriss,I like your sig.

My first boss told me if a guy you're doing a deal with ever started talking about what a good Christian he was,you should grab your wallet with both hands and run.

[mbf]

:x

why do you state in the title "are gay and lesbians less...." and then refer to ONE person (the author of that article) who is like that?

that is misleading and untrue for many, probably the majority of gay and lesbian activists. (note, i am aware that gay men will most likely find TS not sexually attractive - as i dont find gay men sexually attractive either - but that doesn t mean they dont accept their causes and fights.)

after reading that whole article i might add another 2 cents....

which i toss in just know - after reading the whole thing as well as the comments, i have to say....

this very board, beeing so porn orineted and all, had WAY better debates on topics touched by that article published by a big uk newspaper. which kinda is astonishing

[tsntx]

kriss is dead on... she thinks just bc shes a fucking bull dyke that means we see her as trans-man... we DONT bitch! youre just a bull dyke w/ something up your ass against people that dont fit into your pretty plaid lumberjack mold... oh and by the way bitch, FUCK YOU!

[tsntx]

:x

why do you state in the title "are gay and lesbians less...." and then refer to ONE person (the author of that article) who is like that?

that is misleading and untrue for many, probably the majority of gay and lesbian activists. (note, i am aware that gay men will most likely find TS not sexually attractive - as i dont find gay men sexually attractive either - but that doesn t mean they dont accept their causes and fights.)

after reading that whole article i might add another 2 cents....

which i toss in just know - after reading the whole thing as well as the comments, i have to say....

this very board, beeing so porn orineted and all, had WAY better debates on topics touched by that article published by a big uk newspaper. which kinda is astonishing

are you a ts?
have you met a ts on a NON-sexual level?
have you REALLY experienced what is like to be a ts?

no? then you dont know shit about who accepts us and who doesnt do you? while we may not be getting bashed physically by gays for being who we are... we certainly get verbally abused. several large glbt groups have tried to or have dropped the T from the group bc the g's the l's and even the fucking b's have complained so much about being grouped w/ "people w/ fetishes" ... like ive said in thread after thread.... if you dont know what youre talking about.... dont act like you do and speak for a group of ppl you are NOT a member of.

[mbf]

[quote=mbf]:x

why do you state in the title "are gay and lesbians less...." and then refer to ONE person (the author of that article) who is like that?

that is misleading and untrue for many, probably the majority of gay and lesbian activists. (note, i am aware that gay men will most likely find TS not sexually attractive - as i dont find gay men sexually attractive either - but that doesn t mean they dont accept their causes and fights.)

after reading that whole article i might add another 2 cents....

which i toss in just know - after reading the whole thing as well as the comments, i have to say....

this very board, beeing so porn orineted and all, had WAY better debates on topics touched by that article published by a big uk newspaper. which kinda is astonishing

are you a ts?

no i am not. and you know that...


have you met a ts on a NON-sexual level?


yes i have. and? ive been out and about with ts many times to many places. ok, i admit, it was bars, restaurants, museums, shops. places like that. never in a "work environment" like an office. but thats simply because i dont work at those places.



have you REALLY experienced what is like to be a ts?


no, how could i?



no? then you dont know shit about who accepts us and who doesnt do you? while we may not be getting bashed physically by gays for being who we are... we certainly get verbally abused. several large glbt groups have tried to or have dropped the T from the group bc the g's the l's and even the fucking b's have complained so much about being grouped w/ "people w/ fetishes" ... like ive said in thread after thread.... if you dont know what youre talking about.... dont act like you do and speak for a group of ppl you are NOT a member of.

well, to be precise, i do a little work in a local glbt group. (or rather "did") and there i never have experienced any discrimination against TS. but then i tend to shun the narrowminded bunch. so my notions might be distorted because of personal preference. that doesnt change the fact that Kriss is implying in his thread title that ALL gays and lesbians are like that which isnt true.

[justatransgirl]

Ok get ready for a long one folks.

I read that article. And I'd have to say that changing the opinion of someone like this woman is about the same as trying to get a religious fanatic to accept evolution.

I've never had any gay guys be disrespectful of me for transitioning. I no longer find much interest in gay bars. I did occasionally go to cruise joints before I transitioned. As escorts I'd say out ratio of gay guys who date us is probably about 1%, maybe less.

Why? I think it's because gay guys want a man. Even if it's an extremely femme guy, they still want him to IDENTIFY as a gay man, not a girl.

Lesbians have been another story. I've had two negative experiences, one just a few weeks ago. Jessica and I used to hang out at a "girl bar" here in San Diego (it closed last summer). We were always welcomed, and always had fun, and I was constantly getting felt up. "Are those real?" Honk, honk... Now we mostly go to straight bars unless we're "working" at a trans cruise joint.

BUT - several years ago I was in a lesbian forum trying to get some girl advice regarding my transition. And I had some woman send me a very hatefull e-mail. Basically that I was just a faggot and I didn't belong on their site. Actually I think it was on AFF.

And this last one was quite remarkable. A few weeks ago here in San Diego there was a "Womans Day" at the LGBT Center. There were several hundred women present, along with a handfull of transsexuals. TS's were invited to attend in all the advertising. There were booths of all sorts and it was a friendly event. We were invited to join the surfing club and made some new friends. Two TS's (an FtM and a MtF) were part of the management of the event.

The event entered a speech making period and at one point this "typical" middle aged butch lesbian. I say typical because she was 80 lbs overweight, had a short boys haircut and wore a plaid shirt with lineman boots.

So the lesbian woman gets up and starts talking shit about T's. Why would a man want to cut off his cock? Why can't they just accept the fact that they are gay and be happy. Why do MtF's want to invade "their" territory. Don't they know they are much better off as men. Etc.

I missed the first part as the sound system sucked, until my MC friend went storming out of the conference and I started paying attention. Apparently there was a young ts in the front row who was the main recipient of this tirade.

The one positive note was there was only scatterred applause for the speaker. It was so unexpected and so unaccepting ina place where everyone is expected to receive acceptance that I didn't even know how to react.

Since then I have written a letter to the Center board letting them know that we will not be participating next year and that I think such speeches have no place at Center events.

But in short... yes, I think there is an element in the gay and lesbian communities which does not accept transsexuals. Just as there is a segment of the TS community which doesn't accept sex workers.

What I find sad is that so often the most unaccepting people are those who want acceptance so much themselves.

Sigh,
TS Jamie

[justatransgirl]

PS - Ladies, ladies, let's not fight...

And Tsntx as usual your comments are excellent. Other than the lumberjack crack... but I guess I have that cliche too. I think maybe everyone has acceptence issues we can all work on.

And nothing personal to our lesbian friends, I was just trying to make a visual in my reference.

Hugs,
TS Jamie

[tsntx]

[quote=mbf]:x

why do you state in the title "are gay and lesbians less...." and then refer to ONE person (the author of that article) who is like that?

that is misleading and untrue for many, probably the majority of gay and lesbian activists. (note, i am aware that gay men will most likely find TS not sexually attractive - as i dont find gay men sexually attractive either - but that doesn t mean they dont accept their causes and fights.)

after reading that whole article i might add another 2 cents....

which i toss in just know - after reading the whole thing as well as the comments, i have to say....

this very board, beeing so porn orineted and all, had WAY better debates on topics touched by that article published by a big uk newspaper. which kinda is astonishing

are you a ts?

no i am not. and you know that...


have you met a ts on a NON-sexual level?


yes i have. and? ive been out and about with ts many times to many places. ok, i admit, it was bars, restaurants, museums, shops. places like that. never in a "work environment" like an office. but thats simply because i dont work at those places.



have you REALLY experienced what is like to be a ts?


no, how could i?



no? then you dont know shit about who accepts us and who doesnt do you? while we may not be getting bashed physically by gays for being who we are... we certainly get verbally abused. several large glbt groups have tried to or have dropped the T from the group bc the g's the l's and even the fucking b's have complained so much about being grouped w/ "people w/ fetishes" ... like ive said in thread after thread.... if you dont know what youre talking about.... dont act like you do and speak for a group of ppl you are NOT a member of.

well, to be precise, i do a little work in a local glbt group. (or rather "did") and there i never have experienced any discrimination against TS. but then i tend to shun the narrowminded bunch. so my notions might be distorted because of personal preference. that doesnt change the fact that Kriss is implying in his thread title that ALL gays and lesbians are like that which isnt true.

my point was until you experience from a TS's pov you dont know what its like... i wasnt insuating that you may not actually date ts's as much as i was saying have you been around a ts on a personal level in the sense that she would tell when shes been mistreated and when shes had bad experiences... thats all... sorry.

[Shining Star]

Like any other population of people, one cannot make broad sweeping statements. Being as that may, many white gay males long have had "issues" with transgendered persons/drag queens (most lump both into the same category).

Using NYC as an example, many gay bars and clubs were either outright hostile and or refused admisson to transexuals, and or devised "rules" such as no open toed shoes allowed to keep them out.

I've seen and experienced this and often heard about it. Clubs such as the now defunct Roxy would not allow trans in except the "entertainment", that is the girls doing drag show, and soon even they were kept out.

Just because someone happens to be gay, does not mean they abandon any and all prejudice's. There are whtie gays and lesbians who don't like blks,asians, etc, and vice versa. In fact white upper class or wealthy gay males have a world all unto their own sometimes, and it wasn't until recently you would see anyone darker than say a tanned Latin at any sort of major gay circut party. Same goes for trannies.

The worse venom comes from gays who spy that a man will go with a TS but not one of them. In fact many TS girls at a club will often say that it is a gay guy who will clock them/spill their tea (do you know that is a guy?), to a man the are talking with.

Many large cities like LA,SF,NYC had for along time "separate" gay bar scenes for blks/latins and white gays. In NYC Peter Rabbit was at one time one of the few if not only gay bar in Greenwich Village that admitted blks/queens/transgenders. The white gays you found there were the ones into "dark meat" as it was called. You still see this in many profiles in gay chats/hook up rooms where men state they are only looking for "white" or "Asian" only.

Again, not to generalise, but many gay males think transgenders are "freaks" (their words not mine), at best and nothing but sex workers at worse and are throw backs that hinder progess of the gay rights movement. When NYS finally passed a gay rights law, transgender was NOT included, and gay politicans who fought for ages to pass the bill didn't bother to insist such persons be included if that was going to hold things up.

[Kriss]

I just wanted to see some reactions to the article by the lesbian (in the guardian no less, most liberal U.K. mainstream paper).

sO i had to choose a sensational name for the topic or else nobody would have read the article. :shrug

She just really annoyed me with her attitude. A lesbian woman making such sweeping judgements about TS.

I just wanted to see what TS women thought of the article. I used to comment about these things and argue the toss, but i'm just too tired.

[BrendaQG]

I have had many interactions with gay people. Some have been bad. Some have been good. On balance there have been more bad than good. This was true weather I was presenting as a woman and the gay person knew my situation or even when I lived as a man and was kind of femmy. There is without doubt a strong strain of femiphobia in the gay community. This is directed at TS's as well. I have noticed that gay men who were femmy themselves did not act that way. But then I have subsequently seen more then one of them become TS.

I try to treat people individually but I have to admit my guard is up around gay and lesbian people.

[tsmandy]

I think the issue is really complicated. Speaking as someone that spends alot of time around other queer people (I don't think being trans qualifies me as queer, I think being queer qualifies me as queer) I have had a real mixed bag of experiences.

On the one hand, I've never been subject to any form of physical violence from other queer people. I've never been afraid for my life or safety when in the company of other queer people. So in regards to Kriss's question, no, I don't think Gay, Lesbian, and Bi-sexual communities are more hostile to trans people than say evangelical Christians. I do think however, that we tend to pass less with queer communities than we do with straight folks who are mostly oblivious to the nuances of our genders, and that along with the threat our transitioning provides to both femme gay identity and butch dyke identity has caused a backlash. Rather than hating trans women for their femininity I think many gay men want to know why Trans women cannot just be femme boys, and many old school butches want to know why trans men have to transition rather than just being part of club butch. Added to that, is the lesbian separatist aspect of the dyke community which is at odds with allowing anyone who ever had a penis inclusion (most notably, the Michigan Womens Music Festival's policy of trans exclusion). Rather than just throwing up my hands and saying "they hate me", I've chosen to find a queer community that while maybe not perfect, is still supportive and fun. So when you add all of this together, their is often not a lot of common ground for non-trans Gays and Lesbians to meet on with Transsexuals.

For straight t-girls, there is really little reason to put up with that kind of resentment and fear, but for me, queerness is just as important a part of my identity as my trans-ness is. And I'm not going to abdicate struggles for inclusiveness and solidarity.

[peggygee]

:popcorn

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/tea14x3.jpg

[Shining Star]

Well it may come as a shock to hear that there are quite a large number of gays and lesbians who think "their" movement has nothing to do with transgender persons. They base this on various rationales especially the fact that being homosexual is no longer a mental illness, but transgender is still listed with the DSMV.

You may also notice, gays/lesbians have made HUGE advancements in society these past few years including in one state the right to marry, however sexaul preference and sexual idenity are not the same thing, and those who fought for such laws when push came to shove gladly dropped transgenders in favour of getting what they wanted.

Tend to think also in small communites where there might be only one gay bar, everyone tends to get along and stick together, if for nothing else out of self-preservation. It is the larger cities with diverse "gay" populations that allow people to segregate themselves.

Discrimination can take all sorts of forms, not just physical violence. Not being made to feel welcome, and or out right hostility can hurt just as much as a beat down.

This is not only an Amercian thing, there are lots of gay bars/clubs in Europe that will not admit anything remotely looking like a woman, except for the odd fag hag, but she usually is with several goodlooking men.

Also find it funny that so many gays look down at trannies for "working" when there are so many sites like Rent.boy.com with tons of boys/men working as well.

[BrendaQG]

@Mandy
I agree it is a mixed bag.

Even so some general statements can be made that are true "on average". Even when dealing with a mixed bag. *

Let me pose the question. Are more than 50% of GLB people less transfriendly than the general population. I would have to say yes, based on my own experiences and the experiences reported by others over many years.

@Shining Star

We TS/TG people are are own worst enemies on that. We can't even agree on how to define our terms. I.e. are TS's also TG? Are non-op's also TS? Different people have different answers and argue over them as if it was a life or death issue.

[Kriss]

BTW,Kriss,I like your sig.

I STole it from Burroughs

but what do y'all think of the article..........

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/julie_bindel/2007/08/my_trans_mission.html

Is'nt it offensive, what this woman wrote?

[tsmandy]

@Mandy

Let me pose the question. Are more than 50% of GLB people less transfriendly than the general population. I would have to say yes, based on my own experiences and the experiences reported by others over many years.

.

I guess this is where I disagree, and maybe it is only because I have an exceptional network of queer communities that I have had the pleasure of knowing.

I have yet to hear of a single straight identified advocacy group which includes gender identity as an important political issue, while historically the GLB community has provided much support, especially in regards to providing health care to low income communities. From the Mazzoni center in Philadelphia, to the William Way in Boston, to Outside In in Portland (these are the three cities that I have the most experience in regards to accessing trans-friendly health care) queer health care advocates have worked with trans people to provide free or low cost health care, along with other vital areas of support such as free legal advice, court advocacy, job training, etc... Along with this, it is no coincidence that the transgender pride marches that have occurred, have often preceded or followed Dyke marches and Gay Pride events.
So in terms of public efforts to improve the quality of life, and legal equality of trans-people, the Bi-sexual, Gay and Lesbian communities have played a dramatic role.

Another way I think of it, is this. If I am walking home alone at night (which granted doesn't happen as much now that I live in the country) and I run into a group of men, and one of them realizes I am trans, will I feel safer if they are straight or gay? Answer is gay. When was the last time you heard of a gay man murdering a trans woman or a trans man for that matter, for "tricking them"? I've never heard of a case.

As a sex worker, I have learned that many of the most committed sex worker activists (the people who have taken a public stand against the harmful and downright mean spirited laws) have been Lesbian and bi-sexual women.

And as a slutty, sex positive, kinky gal; I've found a lot of Queer people who are similar. There are definitely kinky straight people out there, and there are definitely slutty straight people out there, it just seems to me to be more pervasive in queer culture. Once again, this could just be because I have an exceptional network of queer friends and lovers.

So I tend to see the T in the GBLT as an honest attempt on the part of many (certainly not all, especially amongst the wealthier assimilation based groups) queer folk to support trans people.

Now in terms of how comfortable I feel with hanging out with (non trans) Gay Men, Lesbian Women, and Bi-sexual men and women: well its definitely a mixed bag. On the one hand, straight people never clock me as a TS, so I enjoy complete control over how much a stranger is able to ascertain about my life. Queer people however, are much more used to gender fluidity and gender fuck, and as a result tend to think about it more. Most of my bad experiences, when it comes down to it, result from the refusal of otherwise friendly people, to accept my gender presentation. This can be really maddening, especially when one thinks that they are in a supportive environment.

Sorry that was so long winded,

xoxo
Mandy

[BrendaQG]

Mandy.

You are quite right. The question is just how many in the GLB community are represented by those organizeations?
My guess would be that they are a small minority. Further consider there are millions of GLB people and only tens of thousands of true activist at the most. Even then many of those activist may not be T friendly. Look at the post by "justatransgirl" above. Or consider that T was not even routinely included with GLB in the 90's.

I am glad that so far you have not had the experiences that I have had.

[tonkatoy]

1) I think the lady from the Guardian is a bitch.

2) I do think some gay people discriminate against, or at least have problems with transgender people. I have never been to a drag show, but seeing some of the hype around it, it seems like a way for gays to make fun of ts people, to reduce them to celebrity caricatures. Gays also do not seem to mind outing a girl who is living stealth either, which i find very petty. That comes from something I have seen, so maybe it was an isolated incident, but I have talked to other (besides my gf) ts women who have had similar experience. I heard a segment on NPR a while back where a lesbian was lamenting the fact that gay/lesbian was becoming to mainstream, and ts was the new edge culture. I thought that was kind of stupid since most ts women that i know would simply live life as a woman if they were able. And many post op women do just that.

I think some of the gay/lesbian problem stems from jealousy. They see ts women wanting a normal life, and know that in a lot of ways they cant have that. I will say on the flip side, some ts people and their admirers are more homophobic than 'normal' people. Perhaps that is not stated well, but you know what I mean. There are people who are so worried about classification and image that they must attack others. I have seen that on this board a lot.

[Rod la Rod]

kriss is dead on... she thinks just bc shes a fucking bull dyke that means we see her as trans-man... we DONT bitch! youre just a bull dyke w/ something up your ass against people that dont fit into your pretty plaid lumberjack mold... oh and by the way bitch, FUCK YOU!

Absolutely right on.

Don't kid yourself TS people;

[Many] lesbians consider TS women to be mutilated men. And [many] lesbians hate men.

[many] gay men are embarrassed and ashamed of TS women, particularly if they don't pass or are not attractive. Gay men do not want to be associated with transsexuals. [most] Gay men find the idea of altering your body or your genitals in order to appear like a women anathema.

[many] Gay men, on the other hand, are EXTREMELY JEALOUS of beautiful young TS women who are able to pass and attract straight men.

This is nothing new. I said many GAY MEN and many LESBIANS, NOT ALL. I know there are exceptions

Here is some recommended reading;

Transsexual Empire, by Dr. Janice G Raymond,

This has been called the lesbian version of "Mein Kampf", against transsexuals.

[crayons]

kriss is dead on... she thinks just bc shes a fucking bull dyke that means we see her as trans-man... we DONT bitch! youre just a bull dyke w/ something up your ass against people that dont fit into your pretty plaid lumberjack mold... oh and by the way bitch, FUCK YOU!

I love you tsntx. :oops:

[Rod la Rod]

kriss is dead on... she thinks just bc shes a fucking bull dyke that means we see her as trans-man... we DONT bitch! youre just a bull dyke w/ something up your ass against people that dont fit into your pretty plaid lumberjack mold... oh and by the way bitch, FUCK YOU!

Absolutely right on.

Don't kid yourself TS people;

Most lesbians consider TS women to be mutilated men. And most lesbians hate men.

Most gay men are embarrassed and ashamed of TS women, particularly if they don't pass or are not attractive. Gay men do not want to be associated with transsexuals. [most] Gay men find the idea of altering your body or your genitals in order to appear like a women anathema.

[most] Gay men, on the other hand, are EXTREMELY JEALOUS of beautiful young TS women who are able to pass and attract straight men.

This is nothing new. I said MOST GAY MEN and MOST LESBIANS, NOT ALL. I know there are exceptions

Here is some recommended reading;

Transsexual Empire, by Dr. Janice G Raymond,

This has been called the lesbian version of "Mein Kampf", against transsexuals.

If you still have doubts about the feminist/lesbian view of male to female transsexuals;

Check out the mainstream Spokeswoman for feminist issues, Gloria Steinem's, book of essays from 1984" Outrageous Acts and Everyday Rebellions: , in which she has a shocking, insulting and derogatory essay, "Transsexualism",
in which she asks, "If the shoe doesn't fit should we cut off the foot?"

If this essay was written about any other minority, there would have been universal condemnation of this bitter old Dyke.

Wake up and smell the coffee people.

[tsmandy]

Absolutely right on.

Don't kid yourself TS people;

Most lesbians consider TS women to be mutilated men. And most lesbians hate men.

Most gay men are embarrassed and ashamed of TS women, particularly if they don't pass or are not attractive. Gay men do not want to be associated with transsexuals. [most] Gay men find the idea of altering your body or your genitals in order to appear like a women anathema.

[most] Gay men, on the other hand, are EXTREMELY JEALOUS of beautiful young TS women who are able to pass and attract straight men.

This is nothing new. I said MOST GAY MEN and MOST LESBIANS, NOT ALL. I know there are exceptions

Here is some recommended reading;

Transsexual Empire, by Dr. Janice G Raymond,

This has been called the lesbian version of "Mein Kampf", against transsexuals.

And what exactly has given you such a stunning insight into the Gay and lesbian psyche?

The debate is much more lively right now and is taking place regularly within the queer community. Stereotyping most lesbian women as man haters is laughable when Rush Limbaugh quacks it, but just plain sad when it is repeated here.

[tsmandy]

BTW,Kriss,I like your sig.
but what do y'all think of the article..........

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/julie_bindel/2007/08/my_trans_mission.html

Is'nt it offensive, what this woman wrote?

The article is poorly written and even more poorly argued. I think there is a grain of truth in her critiques of biological destiny, but as is so often the case, she makes a mountain out of a molehill. The article seems more about her ego than anything else. Its a shame that the guardian saw fit to publish such rubbish.

[Rod la Rod]

Absolutely right on.

Don't kid yourself TS people;

Most lesbians consider TS women to be mutilated men. And most lesbians hate men.

Most gay men are embarrassed and ashamed of TS women, particularly if they don't pass or are not attractive. Gay men do not want to be associated with transsexuals. [most] Gay men find the idea of altering your body or your genitals in order to appear like a women anathema.

[most] Gay men, on the other hand, are EXTREMELY JEALOUS of beautiful young TS women who are able to pass and attract straight men.

This is nothing new. I said MOST GAY MEN and MOST LESBIANS, NOT ALL. I know there are exceptions

Here is some recommended reading;

Transsexual Empire, by Dr. Janice G Raymond,

This has been called the lesbian version of "Mein Kampf", against transsexuals.

And what exactly has given you such a stunning insight into the Gay and lesbian psyche?

The debate is much more lively right now and is taking place regularly within the queer community. Stereotyping most lesbian women as man haters is laughable when Rush Limbaugh quacks it, but just plain sad when it is repeated here.

Actually there is a certain lesbian element on the political right like Tammy Bruce, who have very much in common with Rush Limbaugh.

It may not be politically correct, but I know it to be true.

I HAVE READ IT, I HAVE LIVED IT AND EXPERIENCED IT.

I lived part time in the lesbo capital of the western world, Seattle, WA for about 20 years as well as living in Hollywood, CA for the last 30 years. I have experienced
first hand the mainstream attitude of lesbians, (and some gay men) towards TS women.

Again, I am not saying all. I am saying that this attitude is prevalent.


Here again is a starter feminist/lesbian reading list.
If you need more material for research I can find it for you.

Transsexual Empire, by Dr. Janice G Raymond,
This has been called the lesbian version of "Mein Kampf", against transsexuals.

Gloria Steinem's, MAINSTREAM FEMINIST book of essays from 1984" Outrageous Acts and Everyday Rebellions: , in which she has an essay, "Transsexualism",
in which she asks, "If the shoe doesn't fit should we cut off the foot?"
It is extremely insulting and contemptuous of MTF TS women.

[TJT]

BTW,Kriss,I like your sig.

I STole it from Burroughs

but what do y'all think of the article..........

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/julie_bindel/2007/08/my_trans_mission.html

Is'nt it offensive, what this woman wrote?

Offensive to me? Nah. Of course I think much of the feminist theory that she ascribes to is bad scholarship at best. I don't pay much attention to what it's proponents think.

I think her argument comes from her political worldview/agenda though she doesn't say it that way.

If there appears to be a monolithic gay/lesbian"bloc",it has more power in the real world than one that seems segmented into factions. Transsexuals don't fit into her political model,they weaken it,therefore she's opposed to them.

She uses the Iranian sitiuation as an example,which is BS. If the option transition or die,of course a lot of gay men in Iran are going to go the trans route.

If she was honest about this as an issue she'd address rates of SRS in societies where it's a free choice,not a do or die option.

Tsntx,I think the correct term is "lumberjill"?

[Rod la Rod]

Please also check the writings Feminist/Lesbo icons Andrea Dworkin, and Mary Daly.

[TJT]

Please don't make me visualize Andrea Dworkin on a full stomach.

[blackmadison]

kriss is dead on... she thinks just bc shes a fucking bull dyke that means we see her as trans-man... we DONT bitch! youre just a bull dyke w/ something up your ass against people that dont fit into your pretty plaid lumberjack mold... oh and by the way bitch, FUCK YOU!

Absolutely right on.

Don't kid yourself TS people;

Most lesbians consider TS women to be mutilated men. And most lesbians hate men.

Most gay men are embarrassed and ashamed of TS women, particularly if they don't pass or are not attractive. Gay men do not want to be associated with transsexuals. [most] Gay men find the idea of altering your body or your genitals in order to appear like a women anathema.

[most] Gay men, on the other hand, are EXTREMELY JEALOUS of beautiful young TS women who are able to pass and attract straight men.

This is nothing new. I said MOST GAY MEN and MOST LESBIANS, NOT ALL. I know there are exceptions

Here is some recommended reading;

Transsexual Empire, by Dr. Janice G Raymond,

This has been called the lesbian version of "Mein Kampf", against transsexuals.



rod your whole post is complete bullshit.


j.

[tsntx]

and it usually is j ;)

[Rod la Rod]

Thanks, I was agreeing with you.

[tsntx]

yeah for once.... like i said in my post "usually"

[BrendaQG]

BTW,Kriss,I like your sig.

I STole it from Burroughs

but what do y'all think of the article..........

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/julie_bindel/2007/08/my_trans_mission.html

Is'nt it offensive, what this woman wrote?

Offensive to me? Nah. Of course I think much of the feminist theory that she ascribes to is bad scholarship at best. I don't pay much attention to what it's proponents think.

I think her argument comes from her political worldview/agenda though she doesn't say it that way.

If there appears to be a monolithic gay/lesbian"bloc",it has more power in the real world than one that seems segmented into factions. Transsexuals don't fit into her political model,they weaken it,therefore she's opposed to them.

She uses the Iranian sitiuation as an example,which is BS. If the option transition or die,of course a lot of gay men in Iran are going to go the trans route.

If she was honest about this as an issue she'd address rates of SRS in societies where it's a free choice,not a do or die option.

Tsntx,I think the correct term is "lumberjill"?

Which is also false. The Iranians do not view TS transition as a cure for homosexuality. Perhaps some ignorant mullah here or there can be found to give a quote to that effect, find me a Iranian psych who thinks that way and I'll eat my hijab. (that thing covering my head in my profile pic).... I could go on.

It suffices to say that the essay linked in the original post appeals to peoples most debased insticts to fear people who are different. Different gender expressions, sexual orientations, etc. etc. Frankly I think the bitch just like the attention she gets for it. Like a sort of super troll.

:trolls

That's all people like her are.

[tsmandy]

Please also check the writings Feminist/Lesbo icons Andrea Dworkin, and Mary Daly.

Uh, yeah. Ok, so there has been a massive shift in the feminist community away from anti porn, anti sex worker, penetrative sex is rape, feminism. 2nd wave feminists such as the ones you seem to relish referencing, have been ignored and challenged for quite some time.

It is always a mistake for anyone to assume that they have an accurate perception of what a community that numbers in the millions thinks as a whole based on their limited observations as an outsider.

This attitude also ignores the large numbers of lesbian and bi-sexual trans women with GG lesbian partners, as well as trans men with Gay partners. There is a much bigger world of transness than exists in the straight fetishist community.

[SarahG]

Going back to the OP: I read the link's contents and I find it troubling.

It is troubling whenever anything is published in a news-media platform making such blatantly incorrect statements, assertions without evidence, etc when presented as factual. This is most especially true IMO when it is an issue such this because there is already such widespread defficiency with such accuracy... news media already has enough of a problem not using the right terminologies, or not using the right pronouns in articles. Personally I think this is because reporters see so much as "just an other story for their job" and don't stand behind their work with adaquete research, corrections when mistakes are made, or anything with any true depth.

Thus the danger becomes that whenever articles like these appear in respected media, other media groups will be quick to essentially repeat the same incorrect statements, false assumptions, and baseless assertions without ever questioning any of its contents.

Granted I admit opinion pieces/editorials don't inflict as much damage as, say, an article not presented as being someone's bullshi... I mean opinion. But in distributing (be it online or in print) an editorial, a media institution is essentially giving it extra credibility. It would certainly have reflected on the Chicago Tribune had they gone and given Falwell a full page to rant about gays on September 12th... people don't patron a mainstream news media (online or in print) if it is legitimizing, endorsing, or aiding to spread the crazy positions and arguments of extremist radicals. People will take this article (linked to from the OP) seriously because of where it is unless they have the brains to see it for what it is, just as would have been the case had Falwell been able to distribute a water downed series of editorials in the Chicago Tribune in the weeks following 911.

Personally, my position is as it has always been in terms of gays; the only thing we have in common with them are the people that dislike us/discriminate against us/react verbally or physically hostile towards us. I have had some good experiences with some gays, and I have had some fairly bad experiences with some gays. The only bad incidents I can think of (none of which were physical) online or IRL (real life- not the racing series) involved lesbian women.

Moving on:



several large glbt groups have tried to or have dropped the T from the group bc the g's the l's and even the fucking b's have complained so much about being grouped w/ "people w/ fetishes"


A lot (not saying most/all/etc) never even tried to have a T at the end of their group. I couldn't even begin to list the groups I have come across (in recent years) that don't, nor ever did have a T anywhere affiliated with their institution.

[tgirlzoe]

I think it's really a mix. The Queer people I hang out with are often dyke bois and half of them openly struggle with gender issues. Some go by male pronouns and name but are not pursuing testosterone. There are a lot of FTMs I know like that compared to MTFs. Hell, the president of the Queer women's club on campus is FTM! So whether or not lesbians are accepting of trannyboys really depends on the group. Among young dykes, I have seen a tendency to identify as "genderqueer" or other various gender terms (as many as you can come up with).

The opposition comes from older women who were involved in the 70s lesbian feminist movement and such. They sort of see FTMs as defecting from and MTFs as invading women's space that they've fought hard for.

I think we can all think of transsexuals who have adopted the worst stereotypical traits of women, particularly among the late-transitioners whose femininity seems forced, awkward and based on weird ideas about "men are X, women are Y".

In my experience, however, butch dykes are more stereotypically masculine than FTMs. The FTMs don't feel they have to prove anything, they don't have to stand out as masculine, fighting assumed ideas about women being feminine, because they have beards. FTMs also seem to be very likely to be bisexual (I've never met a butch bi-dyke, although I guess they exist ~ would be hard to meet guys though), even gay. They just seem far more comfortable with their sexuality and gender, butches often seem like they have a chip on their shoulder.

I was in the car last week with two of my pre-T FTM friends. One said this was much better than when he was trying to be stone butch and the other asked what that was. He explained, "Stone butch is when you have sex but won't let women touch your genitals." I translated, "People who hate their bodies but have too much pride to just say they're men."

Another thing one of my friends said when I showed him the Questioning Transgender (http://questioningtransgender.org/) site was, "How can I be transitioning because I want to gain male privilege when I'm at far more risk for violence and discrimination living as a gay man?" I said those were the words of someone who has never freaked out because of the simple fact they had a female body, they think it must be about privilege.

I was working fast food this Spring right in the heart of gay Seattle. One of my assistant managers was gay. His boyfriend came in once during my first week or two and I said, "Awww... it's cute, how come my girlfriend doesn't come visit me at work? *pout*". He responded, "I knew you were a lesbian." Do I come off as a lesbian? Hmm... Maybe it's the gender ambiguity...

There was a popular local drag queen who would come in and get food on a semi-regular basis (in drab, of course) and I mentioned something about drag to my coworker, telling him how much fun drag is and how I love kinging but can't get up the balls to actually go up on stage and do a routine. I also made an aside to my assistant manger and he made a snide comment about how "it doesn't matter if you're gay or not, men should act like men and women should act like women." It wasn't directed at me but I took offense at it, I didn't retort, just rolled my eyes at him.

Gay people are terribly ignorant about transsexuals, the perception that we are a seamless group ~ homosexuality as gender inversion and transsexuality as extreme homosexuality ~ is quite false. I'm not going to say that they are completely unrelated, as some trans people do, because there is some overlap. However, I have run into plenty of transphobia from the gay community.

On the other hand, I have also occasionally ran into homophobia among transsexuals. It's kind of bizarre, you'd think, but it happens. I remember someone posted a profile for a Southern Baptist transsexual woman who said she was strictly opposed to the "gay agenda". I also was in a Queer chatroom populated largely by trannyboys and this guy comes in there swinging about the gays. Not just any troll, an FTM troll! I have also heard FTMs make snide remarks about lesbians.


It's a mess but like someone else said, I've never heard of a gay man beating up a transsexual. Actually, wait, that's not true. There was a news story a year or two ago about a man who beat his boyfriend half to death when he told him he was going to transition. *sigh* People are assholes, the whole lot of 'em.

[Rod la Rod]

Please also check the writings Feminist/Lesbo icons Andrea Dworkin, and Mary Daly.

Uh, yeah. Ok, so there has been a massive shift in the feminist community away from anti porn, anti sex worker, penetrative sex is rape, feminism. 2nd wave feminists such as the ones you seem to relish referencing, have been ignored and challenged for quite some time.

It is always a mistake for anyone to assume that they have an accurate perception of what a community that numbers in the millions thinks as a whole based on their limited observations as an outsider.

This attitude also ignores the large numbers of lesbian and bi-sexual trans women with GG lesbian partners, as well as trans men with Gay partners. There is a much bigger world of transness than exists in the straight fetishist community.

Limited observations? Outsider? You have no idea.

Is there any representative literature for this "large number" of trans-friendly feminist lesbians?

Do you know of any literature from feminist lesbians that renounces this type of hateful writing that has been cited in this thread? BTW that is just a small sample I could come up with many more examples.

Tolerating or pretending that this kind of thinking does not exist will not solve the problem. Even if it is a small minority of the feminist-lesbian community, it seems that these are some of the loudest and most mainstream voices, (like Gloria Steinem).
IMO it is outrageous and unacceptable to condone these hateful views about any minority.