PDA

View Full Version : "Cruel and Unusual" (TG's in male prisons) 07/02/0



Hara_Juku Tgirl
06-30-2007, 07:41 PM
Cruel and Unusual
Transgender Women in Men's Prisons in the US

Award-Winning Documentary Chosen for
WE (Women's Entertainment) Television Documentary Series
Airdate: July 2nd, 2007, 10pm


Groundbreaking! At times graceful, at times unflinching, Cruel and Unusual is haunting, urgent and intense. - M. J. Herrup, South by Southwest Film Festival

New York, NY June 25, 2007 The producers and directors of Cruel and Unusual are proud to announce the cable television premiere on WE (Women's Entertainment) Television. This award-winning documentary by seasoned filmmakers Janet Baus, Dan Hunt and Reid Williams confronts the realities male-to-female transgender prisoners in the United States face and questions whether their treatment violates their basic human rights afforded by the Constitution.

We are so thrilled that WE has recognized these transgender women, and is moved by their stories, so that our documentary will get to the wide audience we made it for, said executive producer Reid Williams.


FOR PURCHASE, PLEASE CONTACT OUTCAST FILMS
vdomico@outcast-films.com

FOR PRESS KIT PLEASE CONTACT
ejm@chillmedianorth.com

__________________________________________________ ___________

Attached herewith was a letter from my TG friend:

....The director of "Cruel & Unusual," Janet Baus, sent the below note announcing the airing of the film on WE-TV. MONDAY, JULY 2, 10pm...... i am briefly interviewed as an attorney/advocate for a "character" in the film who was incarcerated in Union County Jail in Elizabeth, New Jersey. My remarks are my own although i must disavow some of the more sensationalistic aspects of the film and any interpretation that the inmates featured are in any way representative of the entire (inmate or non-inmate)transgender community. My issue with the film is that it features, focuses and dramatizes the lowest possible, sadistically stereotypical aspects of a few obviously-disturbed transgender individuals as representative of the experience of transgender inmates in male prisons. I worry that, by extension, people who don't know the transgender community will somehow associate the 'characters' featured in this film with the transgender community-at-large.

The film interviews a person I would describe as a questioning-cross-dresser in appearance (and the character confirms the same in the film) who, while incarcerated in a Wyoming prison, used a razor to slice away his/her own penis, and the film zooms-in showing the flapping piece of skin between the former inmate's legs.

A Virginia inmate serving a life sentence for murder 'proudly' displays the hundreds of slash marks on her arms from her attempts to commit suicide because she hasn't been allowed to get sex reassignment surgery.

The problem, in my mind, is that these aberrant self-destructive behaviors are somehow presented as the noble response of martyrs for the transgender movement, and that these individuals are in some way activists or advocates or fighters for transgender rights. And worse, that their irrational, self-mutilation, continued criminal conduct and general states of mental and psychological degradation is a reasonable and rational response to the oppression transgender people experience. And that is a dangerous and frightening conclusion.

First of all it should be noted that incarceration and involvement with the criminal justice system is indeed a real and menacing presence in the lives of many, many - way too many - transgender people; particularly male-to-female transgender people, and especially (as in the rest of society) minority or non-Caucasian transgender people. Having recognized that fact, it is then important to state that of all those male-to-female transgender people the occurrence of individuals cutting off their genitals in prison is negligible, to the say the least. It is equally important to recognize that the erratic behavior of inmates acting under desperate circumstances in solitary confinement who have been convicted of committing heinous acts which deprived other individuals of their civil and human rights, can not be held up as model behavior or as exemplary moments in the struggle for transgender civil rights.

I was, frankly, quite shocked - and embarrassed - by the depictions, the same as if someone took a camera into a padded-cell and interviewed a human being who was naked and covered in their own feces or in some other form of mental distress. I'd say, get the person help instead of gawking at their nakedness and degradation.
It was also shocking to see in that our literature and pop-culture has been basically purged of this pre-historic idea that all transgender people want to mutilate themselves. "Cruel and Unusual" raises that spectre for discussion and speculation. It does nothing to promote the idea that transgender people are mentally sound.

The idea that transgender people are so distraught and irrational that they want to cut their genitals off is a 'fear and smear tactic' I haven't seen or heard used against transgender people since the 1960's. In this case, "Cruel and Unusual" uses this concept of 'transgender self-mutilation' as some kind of personal-revolutionary act against the mean old wicked oppressive prison system. Cutting off one's genitals or attempts at suicide should never be presented as a solution - not even as a rational response - to being denied hormones and sex change surgery in jail.

There is only one real, 100%-guaranteed, solution to the oppression of transgender male-to-female inmates by the state and federal correctional systems. And it is NOT to show how desperate some inmates are to cut off their own genitals. The only way for male-to-female transgender people to avoid oppression by male prisons is for them to STAY OUT OF PRISON. That should be the message of "Cruel and Unusual" but that's not the message I came away with. Emphasizing these very difficult and troublesome cases makes it look like all male-to-female transgender people are subject to this sort of treatment in prisons for men. This is not the case either. There are many untold stories of male-to-female transgender people who survived prison sentences without incident, while making educational and vocational improvement to their lives, and certainly without resorting to self-mutilation or suicide attempts. A film about male-to-female transgender people should deliver a message of hope, because for those of us who actually know large numbers of male-to-female people who have survived the prison system without hurting themselves or others.

The lack of this message to me is an indication that there is a general societal expectation that the majority of transgender male-to-female people WILL go to prison and they WILL face the situations dramatized and highlighted in "Cruel and Unusual." The film feeds that ideology and supports the racist mentality that transgender people, African-Americans, Hispanics and other "outsiders" are all criminals at heart; prone to committing crimes and are naturally-suited to incarceration. I wouldn't want anyone to come away with that impression, and I wouldn't want my remarks in the on-screen interview to be construed in support of that impression.

I don't believe that the plight of incarcerated male-to-female transgender people should be seen as representative of the conditions that most transgender people face in their daily lives. As an African-American male-to-female transsexual woman who was a cast-away child at age 19 years old I was caught-up in the criminal justice system. I was incarcerated for 28 days - a minor stretch of time, I know - in the 13th floor "Queen's Tank" on the top of the old Hall of Justice in downtown Los Angeles (is it still there?) for prostitution in 1973, and there were a lot of transgender women incarcerated there, but only the mentally-unstable resorted to acts of self-mutilation - and it was not done because of their transgender status but because of their mental health status. Incarceration for male-to-female transgender people need not be a hopeless situation which ends in self-mutilation, and I am particularly sensitive to any representations implying that is an expected and commonplace result.

Our young people need to be shown images of transpeople who have survived transgender oppression with dignity and honor (I suppose 'style' and 'grace,' as well as 'dignity' and 'honor' would be too much to ask for) - not by breaking the law, harming others and self-mutilating themselves when we cannot get our way. Male-to-female transgender people who are committed to undergoing sex-reassignment surgery should take "Cruel and Unusual" as a cautionary tale to stay out of and away from the criminal justice system. If they do not, their sex-change dreams cannot be achieved. The argument that male-to-female transgender prison inmates should receive sex reassignment surgery because it is a medical necessity is a hard one to make considering all the other medical necessities of other non-transgender inmates that are not fully or adequately addressed by a generally uncaring correctional system - not to mention the 45 million working, law-abiding American citizens with no health insurance whatsoever. I cannot, in good faith, advocate that transgender inmates receive a better standard of health care in prison than all the other men and women subjected to the inadequacies of prison health care systems across the nation. And advocating for this kind of preferential treatment for transgender people does not improve relations between transgender inmates and correction officials, other non-transgender inmates and their families or the general public which already believes their tax dollars are being spent frivolously.

The film also implies that it is the "cruel and unusual" action of the corrections officials in not recognizing the transgender-ness of these inmates, and thereby denying them adequate sex and gender reassignment medical treatment, which are the direct causation of the self-mutilation and other self-destructive behaviors exhibited by the characters in the film. Quite to the contrary, the real problems of my New Jersey client interviewed in the film stemmed from the fact that she attempted to escape while in custody, and by doing so she caused a Union County Sheriff's Deputy to break his leg in pursuit of her - not just from the fact that she was a very pretty male-to-female transgender youth with breasts. Her transgender-ness only made her more identifiable to the Sheriff's Deputies who ran the Union County Jail and who had very bad feelings towards her for causing their colleague to break his leg. Besides her escape attempt, she was originally arrested for causing felonious injury to her lesbian (yes, female) lover in a fight in the middle of the street in broad daylight. Dysfunctional living is just plain dysfunctional living. Mischaracterizing the truth can not make the dysfunctional into the heroic. Jean Valjean stole bread to save his life. None of these inmates claim to have committed their crimes to stave off starvation.

None of the inmates featured in the film were contending that they had been wrongfully accused, falsely charged or illegally incarcerated. Unfortunately, people who are convicted of felonious crimes against undeserving victims are subjected to some loss of their civil and human rights. If you do NOT want to be oppressed by the criminal justice system you should do all you can do to not come into conflict with it. And of course I realize that the criminal justice system is discriminatory and transgender people, like all other minorities (non-Caucasian racial minorities and sexual minorities), are arrested and incarcerated more often and serve longer sentences than straight white men and women. And that realization is all the more reason why transgender and other minority group members have to be even that much more extraordinarily careful to avoid the criminal justice system. Let "Cruel and Unusual" be a warning that if you are transgender and you go to prison you will not be treated fairly and you will be denied your right to continue your gender transformation. Unfortunately that is the reality. You cannot fight that unfairness by calling it injustice; and you can't fight for social change by becoming incarcerated. Instead of advocating for incarcerated male-to-female transgender inmates to be able to have sex reassignment surgery paid for by the prison, I would rather spend my energy advocating to help male-to-female transgender people stay free of the criminal justice system.

The real solution to "Cruel and Unusual" treatment of transpeople in men's jails is access to jobs for transgender people. Enforcement of anti-discrimination laws on behalf of ALL minorities, including transgender people will give transpeople a an equal opportunity to remain law-abiding citizens. And, the de-criminalization of prostitution, as that is the main reason that most male-to-female transwomen inmates come into contact with the criminal justice system will prevent . Poverty, lack of employment and educational opportunities, alienation and disenfranchisement are much more 'cruel and unusual' ways society has of oppressing transgender people. You don't have to go into the bowels of prisons and interview the most lost and lowly, desperate, mentally-deranged and socially-maladjusted transgender people one can possibly hope to find in order to address the injustices transgender people face. To do so seems to negate the struggles of those transgender people who manage to survive without murdering or assaulting any one, breaking the law or becoming incarcerated.

On the other hand, the fact that our society and culture is even curious enough about transpeople to give this film an airing is a form of perverted progress....and, after all, progress is progress. ... as halting and off-track as that may sometimes be.

Actually, I think the Jerry Springer Show does a lot more for making male-to-female transpeople look "normal" than the film "Cruel and Unusual." Even unattractive brawling transgender lovers and their ex-es become more palatable and understandable to mainstream America than self-mutilating drag queen prison inmates. I think "Cruel and Unusual" will do more to frighten people that are not acquainted with transgender people, than it will do to make them think highly of transgender people. As with all minorities in the nascent phases of their movements for recognition and civil rights, super-negative images of its community members does not help mainstream society embrace and understand the entire group as being members of society deserving of their respect and equanimity. The 'characters' featured in "Cruel and Unusual" will not make anyone respect transgender people, but they may make people have pity on us. As for myself, that's not the kind of empathy and compassion I am interested in being the recipient of. I prefer respect to pity.

You watch it, and decide for yourself.

Best,

Dana

__________________________________________________ ____________

~Kisses.

HTG

AlySinclair
06-30-2007, 08:16 PM
Your friend is very articulate and makes alot of sound, and sad, points.

And, this movie, sounds like a gender oriented offshoot of, "Refer Madness".

justatransgirl
06-30-2007, 09:00 PM
Hara - what an excellent piece! Says much of what many of us say, but in a much more readable manner.

I would like to meet your friend.

PS - There's no listing for "WE" in San Diego - anybody know where to find it - or can somebody record it?

Hugs,
TS Jamie

Hara_Juku Tgirl
07-01-2007, 01:16 AM
Your friend is very articulate and makes alot of sound, and sad, points.

And, this movie, sounds like a gender oriented offshoot of, "Refer Madness".

Yes she is Aly. I'm definitely interested to watch this. ;)

Here's what I found online so far:

http://www.cruelandunusualfilm.com/

http://www.cruelandunusualfilm.com/images/press.jpg

Women, transgender women such as Ashley, Linda, Anna, Yolanda and Ophelia, are incarcerated in men's prisons across the U.S. from Wyoming to New Jersey and Florida. Denied medical and psychological treatment, victims of rape and violence, the documentary Cruel and Unusual asks if the punishment for their crime is indeed cruel and unusual?

Making its major festival premier at South by Southwest, Cruel and Unusual (2006, 66 minutes) is an unflinching documentary on the lives of transgender women in men's prisons. Shot over three years, this high-definition documentary film challenges the viewer's basic ideas about gender and justice through braids of poignantly graphic stories, vibrant landscape portraits and stark prison footage.

Prisons decide where to place inmates based on their genitalia, not their gender identity. Ophelia, who has lived in the prison of a man's body for all of her 46 years, now resides in a correctional facility in Virginia, having been sentenced to 67 years for bank robbery with an unloaded gun. Denied female hormone treatment, Ophelia felt she had no choice but to mutilate her genitals to force the system "to finish what she started."

Anna Connelly had been living successfully as a woman, raising her son, and working towards sexual reassignment surgery. She was on hormone therapy through a doctor for five years before she was incarcerated. Anna was refused treatment and put in solitary confinement which caused her to attempt suicide.

Once an individual begins estrogen treatment, their body stops hormone production altogether, which is akin to denying a woman hormones after a hysterectomy. Coupled with the psychological effects of returning facial hair and losing breasts, transsexuality in prison becomes an untenable situation amidst the general terror of prison. Explained Ashley, an inmate in the Tucker Unit, Arkansas Department of Corrections, "A lot of times I wake up, and I look around at my surroundings and I see all these men. I think, what am I doing here?"

"Cruel and Unusual doesn't just transport the viewer within prison walls, but more importantly, into the hearts and minds of an acutely marginalized and misunderstood community. These women are not criminals in the way the public understands them to be. They are strong, honest, multidimensional individuals with dignity, inner-strength and determination," said Kate Black, Program Officer, The Soros Foundation.

Are these women victims of an abuse of human rights across prisons in the U.S.? If Gender Identity Disorder is a recognized condition in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual IV, should inmates get treatment for it in prison? If treatment consists of counseling, female hormones, and in some cases sexual reassignment surgery, how far should prisons go? Despite their crimes, are they being kept from their Eighth Amendment Constitutional protection against cruel and unusual punishment?



"This moving and thoughtful documentary raises awareness about the abuse, isolation and poor medical care faced by transgender prisoners. We hope that the film's insight will be a springboard for new policies that adequately protect this vulnerable community."

— ELIZABETH ALEXANDER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
ACLU NATIONAL PRISON PROJECT



"Cruel and Unusual is a remarkable and essential work. At a time when torture has haltingly become part of the national conversation, and when all Americans need to be thinking seriously about the violence in our systems of punishment and detention, Cruel and Unusual draws emotionally devastating attention to victims of violence who are persecuted for their stubborn visibility within the penal system - but remain invisible to an indifferent world outside. From Human Rights Watch's perspective, I can affirm that everyone needs to hear and see this film's crucial, disturbing, and enthralling story."

— SCOTT LONG, DIRECTOR
LGBT RIGHTS PROGRAM / HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH



PRODUCED BY REID PRODUCTIONS LLC
RUNNING TIME 66min / HIGH-DEFINITION VIDEO


~Kisses.

HTG

JelenaCD
07-01-2007, 03:03 AM
How does a transgender person try to rob a bank with no gun? weird yet i have no sympathy for criminals , too bad if she is uncomfortable in a male prison , don't be a criminal and you don't have to worry about that , it's like sympathy for the devil. lets all feel sorry for the devil and forget the people that they walked over .
Jelana

Jericho
07-01-2007, 03:41 AM
How does a transgender person try to rob a bank with no gun? weird yet i have no sympathy for criminals , too bad if she is uncomfortable in a male prison , don't be a criminal and you don't have to worry about that , it's like sympathy for the devil. lets all feel sorry for the devil and forget the people that they walked over .
Jelana


In a perfect world, but, it's not always that black and white, is it.

SmashysmashY
07-01-2007, 03:51 AM
How does a transgender person try to rob a bank with no gun? weird yet i have no sympathy for criminals , too bad if she is uncomfortable in a male prison , don't be a criminal and you don't have to worry about that , it's like sympathy for the devil. lets all feel sorry for the devil and forget the people that they walked over .
Jelana

The purpose of incarceration in the modern world is really three pronged. First it is to protect other individuals in society from the offender, then to vindicate the law and the victim that the person has offended and finally rehabilitate the individual.

Sexual torture does not accomplish any of those things. And quite frankly I think that your views on incarceration and the position of retributivism that you are taking are extremely antiquated. I do care what happens to people who are incarcerated for many reasons.

1. They may actually be innocent. The criminal justice system is far from perfect.
2. They are human beings who maintain fundamental human rights regardless of their crimes.
3. They will eventually be released and it does society a great disservice to torture people for years and then release them back into society where they will likely harm others as a result.
4. Just on a human level it hardens the sensibilities of the rest of us to seeks such forms of retribution against others.

I could continue like this but I think that you understand that you are wrong and I do not wish to belabor the point. But if you don’t then you might want to consider the question “what if it was you.” What if you committed a non-violent crime, which would put you in a similar situation as about half of the incarcerated population in this country and you were treated in such a way?

Hara_Juku Tgirl
07-01-2007, 05:35 AM
The purpose of incarceration in the modern world is really three pronged. First it is to protect other individuals in society from the offender, then to vindicate the law and the victim that the person has offended and finally rehabilitate the individual.

Sexual torture does not accomplish any of those things. And quite frankly I think that your views on incarceration and the position of retributivism that you are taking are extremely antiquated. I do care what happens to people who are incarcerated for many reasons.

1. They may actually be innocent. The criminal justice system is far from perfect.
2. They are human beings who maintain fundamental human rights regardless of their crimes.
3. They will eventually be released and it does society a great disservice to torture people for years and then release them back into society where they will likely harm others as a result.
4. Just on a human level it hardens the sensibilities of the rest of us to seeks such forms of retribution against others.

I could continue like this but I think that you understand that you are wrong and I do not wish to belabor the point. But if you don’t then you might want to consider the question “what if it was you.” What if you committed a non-violent crime, which would put you in a similar situation as about half of the incarcerated population in this country and you were treated in such a way?

Co-sign! ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

tgirlzoe
07-01-2007, 07:34 AM
a good friend of mine went to jail for a brief period of time but it was traumatic. they were all confused about how to process her because her license and everything says 'F' but she still has a penis and there can be no penises in women's prison and who does the strip search ~ a man or a woman? she got a lot of snide remarks from guards and other inmates and a lot of leering as well. luckily, they listened to her pleas and put her in solitary confinement for her own safety.

the "no sympathy for criminals" approach doesn't really work well for the reasons stated above. jails and prisons don't help anything, they usually make the problem worse, people just are like "oh, now we don't have to worry about them anymore, they're gone". it's kinda like how people throw trash away and then never think about it again... until the dump fills up and they realize that styrofoam is never going away and they will have to deal with it sooner or later. the same thing is true with people, except people are infinitely more valuable than packing peanuts.

king county, which includes seattle and tacoma, passed a resolution since that time which requires all transgendered inmates (i'm not sure how they define it) to be put in solitary for their own safety instead of leaving the decision up to the jail or prison. it's just a very small measure in a very fucked up legal system.

i agree with hara juku tgirl's friend about the movie (which i have not seen) and other media examples of trans women (you hear very little about ftms in prison ~ i'd imagine they'd be king of the roost in women's prison so maybe it's not so bad). a lot of portrayals of trans women in media have us as deeply disturbed people with an irrational loathing of our genitals and a fetishistic desire for dolls and pretty dresses. we're not even talking anti-transgender media, we're talking stuff put out by the trans people themselves!

i guess portraying trans women as rational, mature, teenagers and adults who, for whatever reason, are unable to function as their assigned gender and choose to transition is boring. the other, more chaotic and pathetic image invites pity (and donations). sad.

tgirlzoe
07-01-2007, 07:53 AM
But if you don’t then you might want to consider the question “what if it was you.” What if you committed a non-violent crime, which would put you in a similar situation as about half of the incarcerated population in this country and you were treated in such a way?

Exactly. Some people are like "why should I care if guys get assaulted, raped and murdered in prison? they deserve it." that's not part of the punishment, if we are going to claim to hold justice as an ideal, letting other inmates and guards physically and sexually abuse people is not acceptable.

It's not like we are talking rapists, murderers and child molesters here. What happens when you get pulled over for speeding, searched and the cops find a baggie in your car? Most people who go to jail are there for petty crimes like possession, shoplifting, or solicitation. You also have to realize that people go to jail before they go to trial, they very well may be innocent of the crime (even if the judge and jury does decide they are guilty).

One in fifteen people will spend time in prison (source (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#lifetime)) so "what if it was you?" isn't a far-fetched thing to think about ~ it very well could be you. At the very least, respect people for that reason.

tsluva
07-01-2007, 08:43 AM
.

.. thanks for the look-out , have my DVR set to record it .







.

Rild
07-01-2007, 10:24 AM
This problem is nothing more than a total failure of the justice system. Transsexuals are not the only victims.

More has to be done to keep more people out of jail. It's a vicious cycle.

ILuvGurls
07-01-2007, 02:12 PM
.

.. thanks for the look-out , have my DVR set to record it .







.

ditto

CORVETTEDUDE
07-01-2007, 04:55 PM
I have reached a canundrum(sp.) here. At first, I say, stay the fuck outta jail! However, knowing full well, that is impossible for a far too large a percentage of our society, there should be accomdations designed to keep male, female and Trans seperated. Placing Trans with male or female populations has its ramifications. That's the way I see it.

Hara_Juku Tgirl
07-01-2007, 08:47 PM
OMG! Im speechless with the preview. LOL I dunno what to say, think..wether to laugh or cry/symphatize. Damn! :lol:

Here's the preview link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8jfCWlnOZw

You be the judge. I didnt think the tg (transgender - Umbrella term is what I would use as appropriate) involved even tried harder to even pass or atleast look decent..that voice! OMG It's certainly a bad example for the tg community is all Im going to say. LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

JelenaCD
07-01-2007, 10:17 PM
the whole prison think is crazy , it's catch 22 , you need to remove harmful people from the population to allow people to live in freedom and security , i don't think many inmates get changed and become productive members of society , it's a deterent to commit crime and if we allow everyone in prison to be comfortable and happy then are we not opening the door to more crimes so people can be happy in jail ? That being said we have to protect all inmates in jail from other inmates . the jail just needs to tell immates that if you physically harm another inmate you are going solitary confinement and longer jail time , just be tough on inmate on inmate crime ! you don't need a separate jail for trangender people , the average inmate costs about $60,000 a year to hold , that's crazy $ and do you want to pay more taxes to fund criminals !

Hara_Juku Tgirl
07-03-2007, 11:40 PM
So has anyone seen/watched this on the WE channel yesterday? :?

~Kisses.

HTG

mtbazz
07-04-2007, 01:51 AM
I saw the show last night. Sucks to be in prison whether M,F or TG.

I feel sorry for the people who are put into prison with violent offenders for relatively minor things (pot, etc...)...but the one girl in there did rob a bank with a gun, doesnt matter if it was loaded or unloaded (im sure the person at the other end of the gun did not know it was unloaded), using a gun was not a very smart thing to do on her part, as I am sure it will automatically lead to a more harsh sentence.

The other black girl on there (the more petite one), was really kind of unfortunate. She seemed to be pretty smart, and probably never had the oppurtunity (proper parental supervision, means to be able to go to college, etc), to keep herself off the streets.

In any case, as much as I would like to say that these people did break the law and have to face the consequences, I do think that having pre-op TG's in with a male prisoner population would cause more problems for the jailers (but the jailers are probably too ignorant to see it that way).

arnie666
07-04-2007, 02:34 AM
How does a transgender person try to rob a bank with no gun? weird yet i have no sympathy for criminals , too bad if she is uncomfortable in a male prison , don't be a criminal and you don't have to worry about that , it's like sympathy for the devil. lets all feel sorry for the devil and forget the people that they walked over .
Jelana

The purpose of incarceration in the modern world is really three pronged. First it is to protect other individuals in society from the offender, then to vindicate the law and the victim that the person has offended and finally rehabilitate the individual.

Sexual torture does not accomplish any of those things. And quite frankly I think that your views on incarceration and the position of retributivism that you are taking are extremely antiquated. I do care what happens to people who are incarcerated for many reasons.

1. They may actually be innocent. The criminal justice system is far from perfect.
2. They are human beings who maintain fundamental human rights regardless of their crimes.
3. They will eventually be released and it does society a great disservice to torture people for years and then release them back into society where they will likely harm others as a result.
4. Just on a human level it hardens the sensibilities of the rest of us to seeks such forms of retribution against others.

I could continue like this but I think that you understand that you are wrong and I do not wish to belabor the point. But if you don’t then you might want to consider the question “what if it was you.” What if you committed a non-violent crime, which would put you in a similar situation as about half of the incarcerated population in this country and you were treated in such a way?

Perhaps the prison system isn't perfect BUT if you commit a crime then you must be punished for it whoever you are.Just because you are a transexual DOESN't make you a special case.

Prison works well if this formular is used.

1 person commits first offence (locked up for x years)
2 person is released. If he commits another offence he/she is locked up for even longer.
3 person is released again. srd if they offend again lock the bastard up and throw away key.

Who gives a shite how much it costs?Keep them in freezing cold cells make them share with another ten wankers.Shoot the fucking nonces and serial rapists and serial murderers to keep costs down too. Sod death row.. give the lawyers a year to prove them innnocent then shoot them. We have DNA now. And all sorts of clever sh1te. In fact shoot the journos's while your at it most are cunts anyway.

All I see you talking about is the offender . What about the victim? The victim should be the one we are speaking about. Not all crimes are non violent. And even when they are non violent what about the shopowner who has junkys stealing from him for example ?

There are other methods like community punishment etc but from speaking to a bloke who left the army and works for probation it is a waste of time for most. Locking the bastards up is imperfect but it is the best thing to do. Yeah Iam sure some have hard lives, but guess what life is unfair, I wasn't brought up with a silver spoon in my mouth it was the army or crime/ the dole, I had my collar felt a few times by the Police. I made a choice. and sorted myself out.

It may not sound like it at times but I have great sympathy for transexuals....I spoken to one at great length about what she went through when young/ how her family disowned her and how she sends money back to them as she thinks if she doesn't they will disown her. But anyone no matter who they are must be punished if they are not totally insane or retarded. Perhaps it is inhumane to put them with males and I expect they are at great risk of being raped. Then what needs to happen is to make the conditions better inside jail. Maybe seperate wings for transgenders I don't know. More access to mental health services. Iam sure it is sadly lacking.

Everyone unless they have abnormality of the mind makes a choice to break the law. Therefore the person who does must suffer the concequences. There is no best solution for lawbreakers but prison I believe is like the best of an imperfect bunch.

ducktales
07-04-2007, 02:41 AM
Plain and simple

Do the crime, do the time, if you have a penis, you go where they put other people with penis's, vice versa

tsntx
07-04-2007, 08:02 AM
Plain and simple

Do the crime, do the time, if you have a penis, you go where they put other people with penis's, vice versa

i agree w/ the first part... and i dont think ts's should get special treatment... however i dont think they should be totally discarded and left to fight in a mens jail bc that would be neglegence on the jails part and thats not right either... they shouldnt be in a womans prison w/o a vag tho... perhaps their offences should be given more thought when handling out a sentance.. such as 3rd dui or w/e... instead of jail time make them do double house arrest time or something...

tsntx
07-04-2007, 08:11 AM
not giving special treatment doesnt mean we just throw them in w/ the wolves knowing they will be the first picked out when the wolves attack... ive been arrested. i went to a mens jail. i was stripped totally naked in front of about 6 guards and 12 inmates... the inmates thought they were getting some kind of a show until the guards physically removed my underwear for me. the inmates went crazy and i spent the 3 days in solitary w/ a huge window where the male inmates where allowed to watch me go the bathroom, shower- no curtain, change, put their dicks on my window as they would pass and say obscene remarks to me... all for what you ask?

failure to show financial responcibilty even tho ive never NOT had insurance and even showed the cop and then the court that i did... they wouldnt dismiss my ticket and i didnt pay the fine bc i didnt see how i needed to pay a ticket i didnt do... again i SHOWED the cop my papers and i SHOWED the court that ive never gone w/o insurance since ive gotten my liscence... yeah that seems fair.

Hara_Juku Tgirl
07-04-2007, 09:11 AM
I agree with you Jen. There should be a way or ways to separate heavy and light offenders I think. Plus it would help ease things alot if they can separate mens, womens and transgender law offenders. ;)

This reminds me of an old culture club video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibbv89cS5s4

The difference is TG's cant be rocking it ala Boy George with lots of mac make up supply and a fedora hat! LOL

~Kisses.

HTG

Shining Star
07-04-2007, 09:47 AM
I agree with you Jen. There should be a way or ways to separate heavy and light offenders I think. Plus it would help ease things alot if they can separate mens, womens and transgender law offenders. ;)

~Kisses.

HTGFor a long time now, especially in large cities there has been a trend towards dealing with minor offences with a heavy hand in hopes it would nip larger problems in the bud. New York City started this under Mayor G. and his police chief Mr. Bratton and has been copied all across the United States and other parts of the world.

Problem is many more people are taken into the system, processed and dealt with via jail time and or fines. Minor offences such as jay walking, walking the street with an open beer can, fare beating, even street prossing that used to result in a desk apperance ticket, and even then those charges being dissmissed or a small fine paid, are now by and large over. If you are stopped by LE for any reason, ranging from traffic to low level prossing, you are going to be taken into they system and processed.

By and large society has embraced this as many felt "criminals" were not being dealt with harshly enough to act as a deterrent on their behaviour.

Take the former stroll in Greenwich Village along West and Washington streets. Residents simply got sick and tired of seeing girls taken away, only to be back the next night.

Sadly this get tough approach has resulted in the United States jail and prison population reaching an all time high in 2006. As for 2007, there are more people incarcerated now than at anytime in the history of the country.

Gays, trannies, and other minorites, even including "crooked" LE, snitches, former gang members that ratted, and such present a problem for prison officials. They do not have the funds and quite frankly desire to set up special areas to house every "special" group that desires such treatment. So they do what is mandated by local and federal law. States and cities are more concerned with being sued, so take their cue from polticans who have spend taxpayer money to defend/payout from lawsuits.


The problem for trannies is so many (versus the population as whole), seem to get themselves involved in situations that bring them into contact with LE. Weather it is prossing, selling drugs, armed robbery, or what have you, chances are given the current climate, you are going to sooner or later be arrested and probably do time.

Most of the greater population does not give a rat's butt about "criminals", weather they are male, female, or trannies. If you are in,you are getting what you deserve and that is all they care about.

For what is worth, the prison system is also straining to cope with the record numbers of women, young adults, children and mentally ill persons being put away. Years ago, judges would have cut many of the above some slack, but no more, if you are convicted, chances are you will do time.

When it comes to trannies, the situation can be especially sad. There are many who are either poor and or minorites, coming from the worst of backgrounds where the street/prossing or doing whatever to get by is the only way they are going to survive (if you can call it that). Just as there are many in some communties that treat jail as a "vacation" (hey it is three square meals a day, roof over your head, medical care, etc), there are trannies from those same communities

Being in protective custody/special section is not always a joy either. Depending upon how things are set up, a guard has to take you every where, which in of it self can lead to problems. There is also the fact you have to wait for a guard to become free to escort you, until one does, you sit where you are. Many girls have told me they'd rather take their chances in the GP than be alone with a guard while taking a shower or some such secluded activity.

As for cutting trannies some slack, that isn't going to happen as it violates equal treatment under the law. To be fair, many areas do have special courts that deal with low level crimes, where the most one does in perhaps a night in custody, fines and community service for low level crimes/offences. But when you start talking about felony charges, then all bets are off.

There is also the feeling that inmates claim to be gay, trannies, etc, to get better treatment than the GP. There is a trannie from Boston in prison suing the state of MA to pay for her sex change operation (she is in for killing her wife, did not begin transforming until several years after she was in prison). The state is saying NO, and that they have done all that is required under local and federal law. Further they argue giving into these demands would open floodgates of other inmates demanding all sorts of treatments, to be paid for by taxpayers.

The solution is really simple: don't do illegal things, and certianly make sure you know your rights.

SS

Shining Star
07-04-2007, 10:02 AM
Oh another thing:

Many people just do not realise just how deeply those involved with LE and criminal law dislike people who break the law. This applies to police, judges, district attorneys, prison guards, etc; the lot. So it is not wise to look to those persons for any sympathy. Far as many are concerned they are removing "vermin" from society and treat those they come into contact as such.

justatransgirl
07-04-2007, 10:07 AM
Great post Shining Star (and others) - BTW a lot of "trannies" don't like to be called trannies and consider it a derrogatory term.

There has been some very thoughtfull comments made throughout this thread. And I think the consensus is the system is seriously screwed up.

So what are WE going to do about it as a community - and as a community of sex workers?

More documentaries might be a start, along with legislation and lawsuits.

As for "equal treatment" ShiningStar I must respectfully disagree. Torture, rape, witholding medical treatment is NOT equal treatment.

Read the San Francisco Resource Guide - there is a section near the end regarding official treatment of TS prisioners in the City Jail - they are to be houses according to GENDER PERCEPTION - NOT genitalia.

The entire country needs to follow this example. We have a LONG way to go folks.

http://www.caps.ucsf.edu/projects/TRANS/pdf/SanFranciscoTransgenderResourceGuide2006.pdf

And remember tomorrow is the 4th of July in a country where all men (persons) were created equal.

Best,
TS Jamie

PS - Shining Star - I DO agree with you that LE for the most part is biggoted and hatefull and see's the world as "us against them." I used to respect LE until I got arrested as a TS.

PSS: I will kill myself before I will ever go to jail again.

yodajazz
07-04-2007, 11:05 AM
A larger issue as I see it is that the US has become more and more punishment oriented as the solution to more issues. As it is we now lock up a greater percentage of our citizens than any major nation on earth. States like Florida 20% of the adult Black male population is either incarcerated, or on probation, making them ineligble to vote. Some say that one in four of black youth will be locked up in thier lifetime.

There have been many good points made in this thread, but I want to touch on tsntx's experience. Auto insurance started as an idea to protect people from the serious financial consequences of auto accidents. But then it becomes a law with that everyone must have it, with financial penalties, suspended licenses, and even arrests. An article here said that over 1/3 of the drivers in our area are without insurance. So potentially one of every three drivers could be stopped and taken to jail, and stripped searched as in Jen's experience.



For what is worth, the prison system is also straining to cope with the record numbers of women, young adults, children and mentally ill persons being put away. Years ago, judges would have cut many of the above some slack, but no more, if you are convicted, chances are you will do time.

More and more, it a crime just to be poor. The issues facing transgender prisoners should be addressed. But facing the larger issue of harsher punishments to solve every issue will also make it easier to deal with TG issues also.

07-04-2007, 11:16 AM
not giving special treatment doesnt mean we just throw them in w/ the wolves knowing they will be the first picked out when the wolves attack... ive been arrested. i went to a mens jail. i was stripped totally naked in front of about 6 guards and 12 inmates... the inmates thought they were getting some kind of a show until the guards physically removed my underwear for me. the inmates went crazy and i spent the 3 days in solitary w/ a huge window where the male inmates where allowed to watch me go the bathroom, shower- no curtain, change, put their dicks on my window as they would pass and say obscene remarks to me... all for what you ask?

failure to show financial responcibilty even tho ive never NOT had insurance and even showed the cop and then the court that i did... they wouldnt dismiss my ticket and i didnt pay the fine bc i didnt see how i needed to pay a ticket i didnt do... again i SHOWED the cop my papers and i SHOWED the court that ive never gone w/o insurance since ive gotten my liscence... yeah that seems fair.


Jennifer, that's enough complaining. It's time to move on.

tsntx
07-04-2007, 11:36 AM
not giving special treatment doesnt mean we just throw them in w/ the wolves knowing they will be the first picked out when the wolves attack... ive been arrested. i went to a mens jail. i was stripped totally naked in front of about 6 guards and 12 inmates... the inmates thought they were getting some kind of a show until the guards physically removed my underwear for me. the inmates went crazy and i spent the 3 days in solitary w/ a huge window where the male inmates where allowed to watch me go the bathroom, shower- no curtain, change, put their dicks on my window as they would pass and say obscene remarks to me... all for what you ask?

failure to show financial responcibilty even tho ive never NOT had insurance and even showed the cop and then the court that i did... they wouldnt dismiss my ticket and i didnt pay the fine bc i didnt see how i needed to pay a ticket i didnt do... again i SHOWED the cop my papers and i SHOWED the court that ive never gone w/o insurance since ive gotten my liscence... yeah that seems fair.


Jennifer, that's enough complaining. It's time to move on.

gee you turn one mother fucker down:

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=290430&highlight=#290430

... and then they gotta find every post you make after and bitch... fuck off jackass.

tsntx
07-04-2007, 11:40 AM
since i didnt get a pm w/ a pic showing how hot you were, and the area of tx you live in, or a bank statement... im sure its safe to say you realized you didnt have what it takes to talk to me in a civilized manner outside of the forum... thnx for keeping it real and immature

Hara_Juku Tgirl
07-04-2007, 12:08 PM
Uh Oh..LOL Someone is in too deep I see! :lol:

~Kisses.

HTG

SarahG
08-31-2007, 07:48 PM
How does a transgender person try to rob a bank with no gun? weird yet i have no sympathy for criminals , too bad if she is uncomfortable in a male prison , don't be a criminal and you don't have to worry about that , it's like sympathy for the devil. lets all feel sorry for the devil and forget the people that they walked over .
Jelana

And I am sure there has never, in the history of our country's existance, been an innocent party whom had been put to death or imprisoned. :roll: