Nearly 1,000 Troops Have Died Since Last Memorial Day...WHY?

[chefmike]

And for what? A big fucking lie, that's what. Supporting our troops doesn't mean turning a blind eye to the fact that they are being sent to their deaths on a fool's errand, by nothing less than a bunch of draft-dodging chickenhawk war-profiteers...

You wanna support the troops? Then bring them home before another one dies in this needless lie of a war.

BAGHDAD — Americans have opened nearly 1,000 new graves to bury U.S. troops killed in Iraq since Memorial Day a year ago. The figure is telling _ and expected to rise in coming months.

In the period from Memorial Day 2006 through Saturday, 980 soldiers and Marines died in Iraq, compared to 807 deaths in the previous year. And with the Baghdad security operation now 3 1/2 months old, even President Bush has predicted a difficult summer for U.S. forces.

"It could be a bloody _ it could be a very difficult August," he said last week.

U.S. commander Gen. David Petraeus on Saturday acknowledged the increase in casualties as a result of the American surge in forces to regain control of Baghdad.

"We're doing heavy fighting. This is a fight. There's a war on out there," he told reporters at al-Asad Airbase in western Iraq.

Michael O'Hanlon, a military analyst with the Brookings Institution and a consultant to the bipartisan Iraq Study Group, said the increased casualties were a result of the security operation.

Thousands more American soldiers are patrolling the streets and living in isolated outposts across Baghdad, leaving them more vulnerable to attack. He also said the increase in raids on extremist Shiite militiamen had brought a wave of retaliatory attacks.

"We're out there on the streets a lot more. There are more patrols going on every day, so we're more open to attacks," O'Hanlon said.

Stephen Biddle, a military expert at the Council on Foreign Relations and a member of a group that spent weeks in Iraq assessing the situation for Petraeus and U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker, agreed that more American deaths were likely.

"The biggest change in their (insurgent and militia) tactics is that they've changed to exploit the vulnerabilities we've opened ourselves up to. They see a new, small American base in their neighborhood, three blocks away, and they're going to car bomb it," said Biddle.

"We're going to see a spike in the short term," said Biddle. "But the likelihood is that in six months we'll see a drop in casualties as these areas become more secure. The problem is, what about the rest of the country?"

By the end of Saturday at least 100 American troops had died in the first 26 days of May, an average of 3.85 deaths a day. At that pace, 119 troops will have died by the end of the month, the most since 137 soldiers were killed in November 2004, when U.S. troops were fighting insurgents in Fallujah.

As of Saturday, May 26, 2007, at least 3,451 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. The figure includes seven military civilians. At least 2,817 died as a result of hostile action, according to the military.

[Cat]

How do I bring them home?

Oh, yeah. I can't.

[chefmike]

Your frivolous comment about this subject shows what a stupid, shallow, chickenshit individual that you are, pussycat.

Enjoy your Memorial Day, you irrelevant jackass punk...

[TJ347]

Chefmike, just wondering how you can come so unglued over someone offering a frivolous comment on your thread, while you at the same time not two days ago made a frivolous comment in one of mine, specifically commenting on my sig and calling me "zippy". Note, I didn't reply with the usual internet tough guy response... I didn't reply at all, as it wasn't worth it. However, I couldn't help but note the hypocrisy here and comment on it. Feel free to respond as cordially or rudely as you like; in truth it makes no difference to me, really.

[guyone]

ChefMike, they died for your sins.

[trish]

i love our soldiers. i admire their bravery, their dedication to country. many of friends and family have served and are now serving. it please do take it as disparaging of our fighting forces to say that they are being played for suckers by cheney and his short sighted, irreverent and greedy administration. nearly 1000 american soldiers dead in one year. how many without limbs? how many brain injured. are we looking after those who came home injured? no we are not. and our fucking legislators just gave bush another budget. does no one care how many of our young troops die for Haliburton and a failed ideology?

[LG]

ChefMike, they died for your sins.

I doubt it. Chefmike never voted for Bush.

[Beagle]

Why???!!!

Could it be that our soldiers are fighting and killing Al Qaeda scum?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/27/iraq.main/index.html

You remember Al Qaeda don't you? These are the ones who killed 3,000 innocents and would kill millions more if they had the means.

And no, I didn't vote for Bush, but I did lose a friend in the Towers.

[trish]

Yeah, we all remember Al Qaeda; we invited them from Afganistan and Pakistan over to Iraq for a big party.

[Beagle]

Puhleeze...

Iraq was and is full of Al Qaeda.

Don't you remember Zarqawi and his camps in Iraq before the war?

Look, regardless, Al Qaeda there now and we're killing them.

[insert_namehere]

Beagle,

You seriously believe that we went into Iraq only to deal with Al Quada? You honestly believe that ANY government can attempt a formal war on terrorism and win?

Please, name an instance in the past 30 years where a country initiated military occupation of a seperate sovereign nation, wound up having to constantly deal with civilian combatants, guerillas or whatever you prefer to call them and DIDN'T have to wind up pulling out after a meat grinder of a campaign.

[trish]

Zarqawi's camps were in Afganistan; and as soon as we leave Iraq, the warlords, tribal leaders and sunni factions (who are all very territorial and already unwary of their Al Qaeda allies) will oust Al Qaeda on their own.

Will they follow us back here? probably not. Al Qaeda attacked the towers because of our troops being stationed near Mecca in Saudi Arabia. As soon as the towers were downed, bush appeased them by removing those troops. They aren't going to attack us here because they hate our freedom, that's for sure.

Yeah, we're killing some Al Qaeda in Iraq. But very few. Meanwhile our soldiers are slaughtered in the cross-fire of a civil war. If you believe in the cause, go fight it.

[chefmike]

ChefMike, they died for your sins.

I doubt it. Chefmike never voted for Bush.

Nor did trish, but as PT Barnum said: "There's a sucker born every minute, and two to take him"..but it seems as though we have a plethora of clueless suckers in this thread, and as they are obviously part of the '20 Percenter's Club for BushInc'...well, to put it bluntly, they are nothing but cretins and chickenhawks like the crooks and liars that they shill for....and while I served 4 years aboard the USS Kitty Hawk(CV-63), these chickenshits like gumpone and whoever these other irrelevant pinheads are probably couldn't make it through girl scout camp....

[guyone]

I made it through Paris Island.

[specialk]

I made it through Paris Island.

When????

[LG]

I made it through Paris Island.

Cool. Though I find it hard to believe- it's spelled "Parris Island"

[tsafficianado]

CA comments

>>>well, to put it bluntly, they are nothing but cretins and chickenhawks like the crooks and liars that they shill for....and while I served 4 years aboard the USS Kitty Hawk(CV-63), these chickenshits like gumpone and whoever these other irrelevant pinheads are probably couldn't make it through girl scout camp....<<<

tell us chumpmike, were you born better than everybody else or did you have to work at it? you have an extremely small mind, and I imagine that another part of your anatomy is on the smallish size as well.

[chefmike]

It's spelled Parris Island, and my father went to boot-camp there before he went to fight in the Korean war..gumpone is just some dickless punk using his mommie's computer...he wouldn't know a sand-flea from a cold-sore...he's a chickenshit punk.

[guyone]

I made it through Parris Island on my way to Florida.

[specialk]

I made it through Parris Island on my way to Florida.

Yeh, last month sucking your thumb in the back seat of mom and dad's car. :P come back when your old enough to be here kid :P

[guyone]

I guess I've been warned. Oh my!

[Oli]

I made it through Parris Island on my way to Florida.

It's that flippant attitude toward a very serious subject that pisses people off, but at least you've learned the definition of bolshevik.

[chefmike]

I made it through Parris Island on my way to Florida.

It's that flippant attitude toward a very serious subject that pisses people off, but at least you've learned the definition of bolshevik.

Is it any wonder why people consider gumpone to be an adolescent who has OD'ed on FAUX news?

No child left behind?

Not bloody likely...

[guyone]

That's right keep the insults coming. Excellent debating strategy. Just like the rest of the democrats...no solutions only insults and whining.

[yodajazz]

OK, you want strategy. One I heard of was called "strategic withdrawl". This strategy would call for troops to withdraw from front line types of positions, such as patrols and go to a regional defensive position.

If a in-force enemy would appear then our military could make a strategic strike. As it is now it seems that enemy combatants want the chaos to keep US troops on the front lines so that they can pick them off. They can hide among innocent people. And killing of innocent people is counter productive to US interests.

It seems to me that to have foreign troops (US) in Muslim nations is a great recruiting tool for radical Islamists.

I have a question for anyone. That is, what do you think would happen if US forces were not there in an everday police type strategy?

[arcticone]

There is nothing real to strike at in an asymetric conflict that's the whole problem after all.
The large number of guerilla groups is not realy led by a central command not even by a central philosophy. And in any aggressive possible action there is a risk to harm civilians, that afterwards can be more easily convinced by fanatic forces of a personal matching kind (religious, political, etc.)

Imo the only way to "win" an asymetric conflict with force is total extermination of potential enemy forces namely genocide.
I think this option is not worth any discussion.

Every conflict of this kind, that was brought to a satisfying end for most of the parties involved, needed a lot of humanitarian and pardon efforts. The key to this kind of conflict is to win the civilians and by chance some of the enemy forces, this makes hiding and recruiting much harder and might bring other into a position where they more likely answer diplomatic efforts. It's a long and fragile process but I think it would be worth a try (as I'm not a citizen of the USA my opinion might not count much).

PS: Sorry for my poor English I'll try to become better ;)

PPS: Being a cynic, things like this offer quite a bit of "fun" to me. I'm sorry for that too ;)

[chefmike]

Welcome aboard, arcticone.

[Cat]

Your frivolous comment about this subject shows what a stupid, shallow, chickenshit individual that you are, pussycat.

Enjoy your Memorial Day, you irrelevant jackass punk...

Meanwhile, you're setting off in your Apache helicopter, bringing home handfuls of troops one load at a time.

Didn't think so.

If you speaking out, to no avail, makes you smart, deep and brave (the opposite of the shit your spewed out towards me), then you're truly are an idiot.

If you think you can stick it to the man by posting some article and a porn related message board, then you truly are a hero.

Where should they send your medal?

I find it poetic that you're calling me an irrelevant punk, when your fruitless message of freedom is even moreso.

I'm against the war as much as you are, but there isn't anything we (especially you) can do to bring the troops home.

I hope you feel better about yourself, though. That's what really counts.

Keep on fightin' that fight!

And just a note:

Looking at that anti-government / government paranoia quote in your sig makes me chuckle. I mean, the only way one would think we could do something about this... would be to vote for the Democrats to win this election. Yet that totally contradicts your obvious mistrust of our governmental structure.

Oh, well. Have fun thinking that you look smart on the Intershit, idiot.

[LG]

To chefmike and Cat:

Please stop arguing about this. There is no point. Save your anger till near election time then go out and get people to vote for the Democrats. I think you both agree that this is the only way to help America right now.

chefmike: I'm sure Cat was trying to covey a feeling that we all have, that with the GOP in government things won't change. He tried to use humour to convey his argument and it backfired a little, becuase sometimes we tend to take things at face value and because it's really difficult to express the subtleties of satire over an internet forum.

Cat: chefmike has served his country well. And he is fighting a fight. Sometimes the message gets lots a little and- truth is- what message can one pass on over a forum that is- basically- about pornography...But we're all in this together, and more so you Americans.

It hurts me to read about the soldiers who die daily. It hurts me also to read about the innocent civilians. So many of us are angry that so many innocent people have to die. We just express our anger in different ways.

Can I suggest you share an olive branch?

[muhmuh]

i just heard an interesting quote about the war
The war in Iraq is a bad solution but an even worse solution would be a humiliated US.
and thats form our minister of the interior... with guys like that ... how do you compare asshole?

[LG]

i just heard an interesting quote about the war
The war in Iraq is a bad solution but an even worse solution would be a humiliated US.
and thats form our minister of the interior... with guys like that ... how do you compare asshole?
Simple- line them up, and tell them to bend over and open wide. :D


Sorry for the joke. Really, I can see what he means, though I disagree with him. The US government does not want to admit defeat because they are too proud, too steeped in their belief that they are the greatest country in the world and the leader of the free world. So they'd rather send their young men and women to their death in a war that America can never win, because, like Vietnam, this is not America's war.

This kind of belief kept America in Vietnam for so long. Because they cannot swallow their pride. Because they are such firm believers in their own bullshit.

I'm sorry, but America is not the greatest country in the world. It is a great nation with good people and a lot of potential. But until the US government starts mending problems at home- like welfare, healthcare, education and the environment- and tries a more diplomatic approach abroad rather than making enemies, America will never be the greatest country in the world.

And here's some news: God doesn't just bless America. God, if he exists, would love everyone equally or, alternatively not give a shit about anyone.

The US was built on some beautiful ideals like liberty and justice for all. These have largely been forgotten in today's America. Until an administration comes along that changes that, America will never reach its potential.

And I'm saying this a person who has been to the US, loves what the US stands for and has many American friends.

[guyone]

Was it OK for the Russians and Red Chinese troops fighting for North Viet?

[chefmike]

It's a no-brainer that supporting the troops, or supporting and unwinnable and unjust war, are completely different.

As far as myself and pussies aka felines are concerned, LG....

I'm an animal lover, but I don't care for (pussy)cats, nor do my dogs. If one dropped from the sky into my yard, or if one of my dogs came upon a pussy(during one of their numerous cleverly crafted excursions after digging under our fence)...well, lets just that they would bring home a carcass...just as they have with rabbits, chipmunks, etc. in the past.

In other words, it's best not to stick your hand in a dog fight, because they bite.

[guyone]

You're like the grumpy old lonely guy that lived down the block whose favorite line was:

"Hey you kids get outta here!"

[chefmike]

You are a putz, gumpone...and that's the only response that you merit.

[guyone]

I know you are but what am I?

[Cat]

I'm an animal lover, but I don't care for (pussy)cats, nor do my dogs. If one dropped from the sky into my yard, or if one of my dogs came upon a pussy(during one of their numerous cleverly crafted excursions after digging under our fence)...well, lets just that they would bring home a carcass...just as they have with rabbits, chipmunks, etc. in the past.

In other words, it's best not to stick your hand in a dog fight, because they bite.
Clever.

Way to dodge my ironclad retort, with an analytical tale of how you dislike felines.

[chefmike]

I'm an animal lover, but I don't care for (pussy)cats, nor do my dogs. If one dropped from the sky into my yard, or if one of my dogs came upon a pussy(during one of their numerous cleverly crafted excursions after digging under our fence)...well, lets just that they would bring home a carcass...just as they have with rabbits, chipmunks, etc. in the past.

In other words, it's best not to stick your hand in a dog fight, because they bite.
Clever.

Way to dodge my ironclad retort, with an analytical tale of how you dislike felines.

LMFAO, since when was apathy an ironclad retort, pussycat?

But you've sullied this thread with your apathetic drivel enough thus far, so I'm gonna have to put you on ignore, furball. Go meow at someone else, pussycat.

[LG]

I'm an animal lover, but I don't care for (pussy)cats, nor do my dogs. If one dropped from the sky into my yard, or if one of my dogs came upon a pussy(during one of their numerous cleverly crafted excursions after digging under our fence)...well, lets just that they would bring home a carcass...just as they have with rabbits, chipmunks, etc. in the past.

In other words, it's best not to stick your hand in a dog fight, because they bite.
Clever.

Way to dodge my ironclad retort, with an analytical tale of how you dislike felines.

LMFAO, since when was apathy an ironclad retort, pussycat?

But you've sullied this thread with your apathetic drivel enough thus far, so I'm gonna have to put you on ignore, furball. Go meow at someone else, pussycat.

Is there any chance you might both be acting a trifle immaturely chefmike?

Now we always seem to agree on political issues, and we also agree on the politics here, but I'm not sure that you and Cat disagree all that much. I think you're both saying the same thing in a different way.

The fact is that with Bush as president and the Republicans in power, things will not get better for the American troops in Iraq and- probably- things will continue to get worse for Iraqi civilians. And, in addition, the political stability of the Middle East will continue to be fragile if the US does not change many of its policies. Any political instability can have an impact not just on the US but on everyone.

The terrorists attacked becuase they were angry at America. They attacked in NYC and innocent Americans died. But alongside them were Brits, French, Germans, Canadians, Japanese, Taiwanese, Australians and more. Then the terrorists attacked in Spain and London. You see, everything America does has an impact on everyone.

So what can be done? Well it's up to you Americans. Next year, you must all go to the polls and vote for Obama or Hillary or whoever the Democrats have and get those GOP fuckers out of government. And then the rest of the world can embrace America again. Why argue about semantics now? We're all in this together.

Just my thoughts.

[Cat]

I'm an animal lover, but I don't care for (pussy)cats, nor do my dogs. If one dropped from the sky into my yard, or if one of my dogs came upon a pussy(during one of their numerous cleverly crafted excursions after digging under our fence)...well, lets just that they would bring home a carcass...just as they have with rabbits, chipmunks, etc. in the past.

In other words, it's best not to stick your hand in a dog fight, because they bite.
Clever.

Way to dodge my ironclad retort, with an analytical tale of how you dislike felines.

LMFAO, since when was apathy an ironclad retort, pussycat?

But you've sullied this thread with your apathetic drivel enough thus far, so I'm gonna have to put you on ignore, furball. Go meow at someone else, pussycat.

It is when it completely disproves your uppity assumptions about what I believe -- and that belief is anything but apathetic.

But, yeah. Ignore me. That's the ticket. You proved me wrong. Continue referring to me as an actual feline. Etc.

[LG]

Cat, my posts are also relevant to you.

Please read them again, the both of you, and stop bitching.

[guyone]

Yeah, Cat. Stop bitching and blame America first because LG and the Red Chinese are here to save the day!

[LG]

Yeah, Cat. Stop bitching and blame America first because LG and the Red Chinese are here to save the day!

guyone, I'm surprised you haven't realised how unpopular the US has become lately. It is attitudes like this that have made it so.

America can do what the fuck it likes, frankly, and I have no say in the matter. However, the more the US continues down this road, the less support it will get from Europe, and the the US will be seen as no more than a big bully.

As for China (and only really old, old-fashioned, narrow-minded or ignorant people still refer to China as 'Red China'), I think that it will soon be as powerful as America. I'm not saying this is a good thing- China is still an oppressive regime in many ways. But America's days as an economic superpower are numbered, even if they are likely to remain the strongest in military terms (though China has the biggest army). And then the US will be seen as no more than a big bully. Sad but true.

I am not anti-American. America is built on great ideals; the people are friendly; the cities are fascinating. What I don't like is your current government- the most corrupt, war-mongering, hypocritical bunch of assholes that have ever ruled your country. It saddens me.

It surprises me how someone open-minded enough to post on a transsexual forum cannot see all this. I cannot understand how you are even unwilling to criticise this administration just the once.

As for my post to Cat and chefmike, it was meant for them, not you. You see, they actually seem to agree on many points (and disagree with you). I was just telling them to see eye to eye, to work together, because it's up to them to vote these bastards out of office and bring America together again.

[Cat]

Cat, my posts are also relevant to you.

Please read them again, the both of you, and stop bitching.
Thanks for telling me what to do. I needed some direction in my life.

[LG]

Cat, my posts are also relevant to you.

Please read them again, the both of you, and stop bitching.
Thanks for telling me what to do. I needed some direction in my life.
Oh yeah, very mature response.

You can do whatever the fuck you want. I'm just tired of this shit. And I'm not trying to preach to you, only to get you two to meet halfway, seeing as you both agree on a lot of things. I thought I was doing some good, but it seems I'm just wasting my time.

I also told chefmike the same thing I told you and I doubt he's offended because he knows where I stand on things, he knows I was trying to help and that I meant well and he knows that I've been here long enough not to care what others think. I can say what the fuck I want. And of course you can say what the fuck you want.

So have your little argument if you want, Cat. See if I give a shit.

[TJ347]

So far as most Europeans are concerned, America is seen as a big bully already, isn't it? That's certainly what I've gotten from what I've seen in the European press, and what I've heard from the handful of Europeans I know (two Brits and a German).

"The more the US continues down this road, the less support it will get from Europe". I'm not trying to be contentious, but I ask you, who's been supporting whom?

I recall reading not even a year ago about the French allowing the graves of US servicemen killed in WWII and buried in that country to go unmaintained, with refuse left uncollected and the land overgrown with weeds. That, of course, is just one disturbing story out of many regarding a European country which would have been conquered if not for American intervention. Yet, for the thousands of American lives sacrificed for a free Europe, there seem to be few in that region who are able to admit that if not for us "stupid Americans" (as we're known to many Europeans, I understand), they'd all be speaking German today... that is, if their grandparents and/or parents hadn't been killed as undesirables. How easily people forget... And yet in the modern day, the whole of Europe sends less men to support us in any military action than there are members of the National Guard in the state of California. Unbelievable.

[LG]

So far as most Europeans are concerned, America is seen as a big bully already, isn't it? That's certainly what I've gotten from what I've seen in the European press, and what I've heard from the handful of Europeans I know (two Brits and a German).

"The more the US continues down this road, the less support it will get from Europe". I'm not trying to be contentious, but I ask you, who's been supporting whom?

I recall reading not even a year ago about the French allowing the graves of US servicemen killed in WWII and buried in that country to go unmaintained, with refuse left uncollected and the land overgrown with weeds. That, of course, is just one disturbing story out of many regarding a European country which would have been conquered if not for American intervention. Yet, for the thousands of American lives sacrificed for a free Europe, there seem to be few in that region who are able to admit that if not for us "stupid Americans" (as we're known to many Europeans, I understand), they'd all be speaking German today... that is, if their grandparents and/or parents hadn't been killed as undesirables. How easily people forget... And yet in the modern day, the whole of Europe sends less men to support us in any military action than there are members of the National Guard in the state of California. Unbelievable.

I get your point, but I feel that I must add the following:

The Brits played as much a part in winning WWII as America (and they were also the ones to crack the Enigma code). I don't think that because the US stood up for Europe 60 years ago (and its worth remembering that America only entered the fray after Pearl Harbour- the US declared war on Japan and then Germany declared war on America soon after)that means that they must follow you in every stupid war you decide to start.

The UK did support America, don't forget, and so did Spain, despite the fact that the UN did not, and both paid a price since they were attacked by terrorists.

France is not an enemy of the US. France tried to be a friend before Iraq and good friends sometimes have to tell you the things you don't want to hear. Europe laughed when Americans put up signs advertising Freedom Fries and when French's mustard had to advertise that it was American rather than French because sales were falling (okay the French didn't laugh, they were pretty pissed off).

Anyway, if it's true that most Europeans think of the US as a bully and the US administration as corrupt, maybe they have reason to.

[TJ347]

I don't think that because the US (and its worth remembering that America only entered the fray after Pearl Harbour- the US declared war on Japan and then Germany declared war on America soon after) stood up for Europe 60 years ago that means that they must follow you in every stupid war you decide to start.

The UK did support America, don't forget, and so did Spain, despite the fact that the UN did not, and both paid a price since they were attacked by terrorists.

The UK and Spain supporting the US in Iraq and Afghanistan led to the terrorist attacks both countries experienced, certainly. But tell me, do you think it would have been better to take a Neville Chamberlain approach? Do you think if neither country had gotten involved, it would have been better off? Europe is too close to the Middle East to get off scott free as that region continues to disintegrate, and if the EU doesn't recognize the seriousness of the situation and actively do something in short order, the attacks you've mentioned will be far from the last, or the worst. It strikes me that Europeans have always been too slow to act, Americans too quick...

I wasn't saying that because of events from sixty years ago, Europe should back every military action the US takes. What I was saying is that I know of no situation where a European nation has provided military assistance to the US of any significance since WWII, and even in that case, it was solely for the benefit of Europe. So it appears that if Europe is in danger and the US is willing to send troops to help, the US is welcomed. Otherwise, it seems, European nations can't be bothered to offer any assistance of consequence. That's what I was saying.

In advance, I know that Europe has provided logistical assistance and so forth, but really... If terrorists began to attack Europe consistently and the EU asked America for help, if we offered logistical help but no manpower (or just as bad, a "force" of 2,500 men to help get the situation under control), how would that be received? Exactly!

P.S. If America had not joined in WWII, there are many military experts who have agreed Europe would have been lost to the Nazis. You can check up on that if you so desire.

[LG]

I don't think that because the US (and its worth remembering that America only entered the fray after Pearl Harbour- the US declared war on Japan and then Germany declared war on America soon after) stood up for Europe 60 years ago that means that they must follow you in every stupid war you decide to start.

The UK did support America, don't forget, and so did Spain, despite the fact that the UN did not, and both paid a price since they were attacked by terrorists.

The UK and Spain supporting the US in Iraq and Afghanistan led to the terrorist attacks both countries experienced, certainly. But tell me, do you think it would have been better to take a Neville Chamberlain approach? Do you think if neither country had gotten involved, it would have been better off? Europe is too close to the Middle East to get off scott free as that region continues to disintegrate, and if the EU doesn't recognize the seriousness of the situation and actively do something in short order, the attacks you've mentioned will be far from the last, or the worst. It strikes me that Europeans have always been too slow to act, Americans too quick...

I wasn't saying that because of events from sixty years ago, Europe should back every military action the US takes. What I was saying is that I know of no situation where a European nation has provided military assistance to the US of any significance since WWII, and even in that case, it was solely for the benefit of Europe. So it appears that if Europe is in danger and the US is willing to send troops to help, the US is welcomed. Otherwise, it seems, European nations can't be bothered to offer any assistance of consequence. That's what I was saying.

In advance, I know that Europe has provided logistical assistance and so forth, but really... If terrorists began to attack Europe consistently and the EU asked America for help, if we offered logistical help but no manpower (or just as bad, a "force" of 2,500 men to help get the situation under control), how would that be received? Exactly!

P.S. If America had not joined in WWII, there are many military experts who have agreed Europe would have been lost to the Nazis. You can check up on that if you so desire.

Very possibly true; I never disagreed with you on this point. Of course, nobody can ever know...And if it wasn't for the French, you'd still be part of Great Britain (or maybe Germany, who knows?)...So where does that leave us? It only tells us that these are not very productive arguments.

As for Europe not coming to America's assistance, well.. European's are pacifists, nowadays, and America has never been involved in a conflict within its own territory (I would imagine Europe would rush to their help then). Don't forget that European nations supported the US in Korea too. And I would like you to have a look at the sites below before doubting Europe's support to America:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04/katrina.world.aid/

[Jericho]

It strikes me that Europeans have always been too slow to act, Americans too quick...

You are 'avin a larf, aint ya?



In advance, I know that Europe has provided logistical assistance and so forth, but really... If terrorists began to attack Europe consistently and the EU asked America for help, if we offered logistical help but no manpower (or just as bad, a "force" of 2,500 men to help get the situation under control), how would that be received? Exactly!

I've got news for you.
Terrorist HAVE consistently attacked Europe [and especially the UK] over the last 30 years or so.

[LG]

It strikes me that Europeans have always been too slow to act, Americans too quick...

You are 'avin a larf, aint ya?



In advance, I know that Europe has provided logistical assistance and so forth, but really... If terrorists began to attack Europe consistently and the EU asked America for help, if we offered logistical help but no manpower (or just as bad, a "force" of 2,500 men to help get the situation under control), how would that be received? Exactly!

I've got news for you.
Terrorist HAVE consistently attacked Europe [and especially the UK] over the last 30 years or so.

True, but Europe rarely asked for help (possibly because the Europeans suspected the US would mess up- okay, I'm joking, I'm joking...)

Anyway, I never really wanted to get into this discussion (too late now, I guess!). I just wish Americans and Europeans could see eye to eye a little more on some things and that Americans could agree with each other. Then we'd see some real progress.

[Jericho]

I just wish Americans and Europeans could see eye to eye a little more on some things and that Americans could agree with each other. Then we'd see some real progress.

I think there's more chance of the British adopting the Euro! :D
[which i'm in favour of]

[chefmike]

Cat, my posts are also relevant to you.

Please read them again, the both of you, and stop bitching.
Thanks for telling me what to do. I needed some direction in my life.
Oh yeah, very mature response.

You can do whatever the fuck you want. I'm just tired of this shit. And I'm not trying to preach to you, only to get you two to meet halfway, seeing as you both agree on a lot of things. I thought I was doing some good, but it seems I'm just wasting my time.

I also told chefmike the same thing I told you and I doubt he's offended because he knows where I stand on things, he knows I was trying to help and that I meant well and he knows that I've been here long enough not to care what others think. I can say what the fuck I want. And of course you can say what the fuck you want.

So have your little argument if you want, Cat. See if I give a shit.

You've made some good points, LG, as always. But you and I both know that I'm not the diplomatic type, nor do I try to be.

And the bottom line is that I've never held the poster in question in very high regard, anyway. But I appreciate your efforts, LG.

[TJ347]

Good points all around LG and Jericho. Looks like some of the things I said were incorrect, and I'm certainly not above admitting it when I've got it wrong. So, thanks to both of you for the correction, and the information LG. Always great to be able to discuss different points of view without it descending into ridiculousness, a true rarity here...

[guyone]

Ahhh...it's not the Americans vs. the Europeans. It's a war of ideology. The right (people who contribute to society) vs the left (parasites on society). The tides are changing and people are getting fed up with socialism. The very principles of socialism will reduce a society to ashes. It perverts and debilitates its infrastructure by its very nature.

[LG]

Always great to be able to discuss different points of view without it descending into ridiculousness, a true rarity here...
I agree.

[muhmuh]

how many iraqis could still be alive if bush suffocated on that pretzel?
iran has already sent 3 container vessels with pretzels to washington

150.000 dead civilians... since the war began... in iraq... do you remember those days when us presidents were simply shot?
i dont think bush ever drives a convertible

(c) hagen rether

[Oli]

P.S. If America had not joined in WWII, there are many military experts who have agreed Europe would have been lost to the Nazis. You can check up on that if you so desire.

Just an update TJ, most military historians agree that Europe would have been lost to the Soviets without US involvement. The failure of the Ostheer to capture Moscow in November/December 1941 sealed the fate of Germany. It was only a matter of time.

[TJ347]

P.S. If America had not joined in WWII, there are many military experts who have agreed Europe would have been lost to the Nazis. You can check up on that if you so desire.

Just an update TJ, most military historians agree that Europe would have been lost to the Soviets without US involvement. The failure of the Ostsheer to capture Moscow in November/December 1941 sealed the fate of Germany. It was only a matter of time.

Thanks for that Oli. I've since found what you're saying to be true, and took a look again at the source I was thinking of when I made my original statement. Imagine my surprise to read that had Germany not attacked the Soviet Union, most military historians believe Europe would have ultimately fallen to the Nazis in its entirety. Seems I missed that bit...