What makes a transexual? A Consensus

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

This question was inline with what Silvester made as a thread topic awhile ago. And since this is a transexual forum I think we should ask everyone's "varying" opinions on what they define/consider as "A Transexual" and discuss them with objectivity (without ruffling much feathers) minus being "safe" for political correctness.

With that said, What do you think in your own opinion/s makes one a Transexual?

;)

Discuss! LOL :P

~Kisses.

HTG

[General Disarray]

whatever they identify themselves as
you tend to offend less people that way
:(

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

:popcorn

[TJ347]

Way to put Sil's rather unfocused thread to good use, Hara. Hope things stay civil, but I doubt it... :roll:

[BlackAdder]

A genetic male or female actively trying to transition there form and lifestyle into that of the opposite sex.

[TomSelis]

A genetic male or female actively trying to transition there form and lifestyle into that of the opposite sex.

What he said....except for the "trying" part.

[BlackAdder]

No, its trying...some never succeed.

[whatsupwithat]

This is a trick question, isn't it? :)

So, I'll go with a transsexual is a transsexual who realizes they are transsexual and lives and looks accordingly or not accordingly to how a transsexual lives and looks.

[specialk]

:popcorn

Can you spare a bag Johnny??? This should go 10 pages I think.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Way to put Sil's rather unfocused thread to good use, Hara. Hope things stay civil, but I doubt it... :roll:

LOL Well I'm not trying to start WWIII here..Just trying to see how sharp the men are on here and could rather say with confidence "He knows what makes one a transexual" or NOT? :lol:

Again, I meant no offense..just thought it's worth discussing (food for the brain)? LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[TJ347]

Way to put Sil's rather unfocused thread to good use, Hara. Hope things stay civil, but I doubt it... :roll:

LOL Well I'm not trying to start WWIII here..Just trying to see how sharp the men are on here and could rather say with confidence "He knows what makes one a transexual" or NOT? :lol:

Again, I meant no offense..just thought it's worth discussing? ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

But in Sil's thread, I thought it was pretty clear that on an individual level, there are a number of individual answers. Even among you girls, there doesn't seem to be one answer, so how "sharp" are we men supposed to be? Just saying... :?

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

But in Sil's thread, I thought it was pretty clear that on an individual level, there are a number of individual answers. Even among you girls, there doesn't seem to be one answer, so how "sharp" are we men supposed to be? Just saying... :?

Well I dont think there is "one" definitive and right answer..But if everyone puts their opinions out there about the subject then from there we can draw out a general consensus. ;) That's what this thread is about TJ347. ;)

It's also educational to learn others views (guys most especially) and if it has any merits about the subject being discussed. :P

~Kisses.

HTG

[TomSelis]

No, its trying...some never succeed.

Then we'd have to get into categories.....that's where the world goes grey.

[whatsupwithat]

Well I dont think there is "one" definitive and right answer..But if everyone puts their opinions out there about the subject then from there we can draw out a general consensus. ;) That's what this thread is about TJ347. ;)

It's also educational to learn others views (guys most especially) and if it has any merits about the subject being discussed. :P

~Kisses.

HTG

To tell you the truth, i don't think I could answer it. I mean, there's just no one 'answer'.

But...

"Born into the wrong body" is the closest that I can come to providing that one answer. From there on in (or out) everyone takes different routes.

[JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel]

:popcorn

Can you spare a bag Johnny??? This should go 10 pages I think.

gladly, I must warn you, it's Paul Newman popcorn "Butter Boom"

[BeardedOne]

OK, Ms. Hara, but I get to start the next "Amigay" thread. :lol:

Does anyone remember the old Brand and Falsey teevee show "Northern Exposure"? The setting was Cicely, Alaska (Named for a bright lesbian in the town's past) and featured a mixture of rather bizarre, yet homey characters.

One, played by Adam Arkin, was 'Adam' (Who, of course, married Eve in the series), the psychotic/neurotic, hermitic, barefoot vet that was, by some strange twist of fate, the finest gormet chef on the continent.

In one episode he became the short order cook for The Brick, a central set in the show (And an actual bar/restaurant in the genuine "Cicely": Roslyn, Washington). I clearly recall a scene where the character 'Dave' was headed out of the kitchen with a plate of burger and fries and Adam grabs him by the arm, spins him around, throws a tiny sprig of parsley on top of the fries and angrily scolds:

"PRESENTATION, you moron!"

So, that's where I'll stand, on presentation. Gender identity is a con: Confusing, convoluted, conceptual, conflicting, conditional. For each individual, the very definition of gender has a different meaning. The concpet is fluid and relative to how each person presents and/or perceives themselves.

I've met gurls who are part-time (Could be considered crossdressers), others who are full-time and quite a few 'tweeners'. While one has danced the surgically modified route, another may opt for the crap-shoot of nature, yet still another will just be themselves in whatever way that may be.

Tough query, Ms. H. Hate you! :P I'm not built for this kind of brainwerking. :x

Transgender is too much of a blanket term, while transsexual is too focused.

Feh! :evil:

I'll wait for more people to weigh in.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Tough query, Ms. H. Hate you! :P I'm not built for this kind of brainwerking. :x

LOL :lol:




Transgender is too much of a blanket term, while transsexual is too focused.

Feh! :evil:

I think Transgenderism is much like a forest (alot of varied species). And transexualism is like a stream..It goes in multiple/different branches/pockets B1. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[Somedude21]

To tell you the truth, i don't think I could answer it. I mean, there's just no one 'answer'.

But...

"Born into the wrong body" is the closest that I can come to providing that one answer. From there on in (or out) everyone takes different routes.

I've pretty much the same answer. Though...mine differs a bit in the fact that if the person in question presents themselves as a woman and honestly believes in the depths of their soul that they are a woman, then I believe that that would make them a Transsexual.

Then again, my answer may be too simplistic...but eh.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Here's a local tv show in Japan which makes men dress as women (as a request by their girlfriends). The judges then gives him a score between 1 and 5 (5 being the highest and 1 lowest) for passability:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/93335/a_japan_transexual/

Please note that these guys being made to dress up are NOT transexuals tho. LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[Fox]

I try not to be too cerebral about these things, but here's my take. If you feel more aligned with the opposite gender, or, you feel about equally aligned to both genders (which I never thought about until recently), you're trans in my book.

[muhmuh]

A genetic male or female actively trying to transition there form and lifestyle into that of the opposite sex.

by your definition they stop being transsexual if they succeed... while now that i think about it there is some logic in there theyre still genetically not the sex they live as

[Somedude21]

Here's a local tv show in Japan which makes men dress as women (as a request by their girlfriends). The judges then gives him a score between 1 and 5 (5 being the highest and 1 lowest) for passability:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/93335/a_japan_transexual/

Please note that these guys being made to dress up are NOT transexuals tho. LOL ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

That clip was oddly funny. XD I especially liked how they scored that guy...I have to say, if I saw him walking down the street, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

[BrendaQG]

Well whatever definition it should be something that is timeless and common to all cultures. Gender identity is all over the place from people who by their behavior are just as transsexual as any of us...yet they identify as a "third gender" instead of "as women". "Gender Identity" seems to favor a certain cultures take on the matter so I will not use "gender identity".

The line to draw is that between a non-op transsexual and a drag queen. This is where I most often get in the arguement of who is and is not Ts.

For me the difference between a non-op TS and a drag queen who is in drag at all times, is some variety of genital modification either by hormone use or surgery. DQ's generally do not use hormones and never have surgery. Non-op ts's always use hormones and many go on to have surgery, eventually.

Basically Ts's are set apart from other transgenders by two things. Some type of chemical or surgical genital modification. Combined with living in the role of a woman.

Peace.

[dan_drade]

Wow, I have been gone for a while and look what I come back to. Another great post by my favorite girl Hara Juku :)
I belive that someone that is born a male and now lives her life as a feminine female is a Transexual.
It does not really matter if they are on hormones, has had suguries or anything else. All that matters is that she looks, thinks, acts and lives as a female.
Maybe thats a little too simple, but it is what i belive makes a TS.

[ezed]

What makes a transexual?

Same as everyone else.... their mom and dad thru pro-creation of course.

I'll take "Why do Bees make honey" for $500 Alex!

[dan_drade]

The line to draw is that between a non-op transsexual and a drag queen. This is where I most often get in the arguement of who is and is not Ts.

For me the difference between a non-op TS and a drag queen who is in drag at all times, is some variety of genital modification either by hormone use or surgery. DQ's generally do not use hormones and never have surgery. Non-op ts's always use hormones and many go on to have surgery, eventually.

Basically Ts's are set apart from other transgenders by two things. Some type of chemical or surgical genital modification. Combined with living in the role of a woman.

Peace.

I go with this one, also they have to start young. I know I might piss some people off on here, but the one's who start later in life, I am suspicious of.

edit: Oh, and thanks for replies on other thread.

I gotta disagree with you on this one Sly. And it is from my own personal experience. A few years ago, I dated a Transexual Woman that did not start her transition till she was in her thirties. She now lives her life as a woman and will never go back to being a guy again. She is also very feminine and lady like. I'm sure if you met her, you would agree.
Although in her male life she did do a lot of what some would consider "masculine" things. Nothing crazy like being a football player, but just things that some would not expect a woman to do. She has a couple of Masters Degrees in mathematics and science as well as actually being on an Olympic team. She did this mostly because it was expected of her by her family, not because she was really into it. The funny thing is that she was a real natural both academically and in the sport that she was in. She really is an impressive person to get to know. But once again... She really is all woman.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

I try not to be too cerebral about these things, but here's my take. If you feel more aligned with the opposite gender, or, you feel about equally aligned to both genders (which I never thought about until recently), you're trans in my book.

OK..so saying the above statement, Does that make the one's quoted below a transexual? :?

E.G. 1





Heres a thought....................

If im a man? which in reality i am and lets say im directly attracted to men only.......................... Yet deep down inside I feel im the women in the relationship............ yet on the outside (my physical appearance) is that of a some what effemenant "boy" with girlish features more or less the look of being androgynous, Am I gay? or am I strait?

E.G. 2 http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12558


Provided of course that she has undergone all possible surgeries and look very natural if not rather attractive. Or is the fact that she wasn't once that gender just too much to bare? Does the projected photo live up to your personal standards?

As a future transexual, I would just like to know the general concensus amungst Atheists, more specifically educated/intelligent Atheists. Please no personal attacks; criticism is welcome, but please limit the negativity.

Here's me pre-everything:
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w32/WhiteMageGirl/PICT0215.jpg

After a couple of years of hormones and a nose job my projected appearance:
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w32/WhiteMageGirl/newfinal.jpg




Then is being a transexual nothing but a "feeling":?: Or is it more? ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[TJ347]

I try not to be too cerebral about these things, but here's my take. If you feel more aligned with the opposite gender, or, you feel about equally aligned to both genders (which I never thought about until recently), you're trans in my book.

OK..so saying the above statement, Does that make the one's quoted below a transexual? :?





Heres a thought....................

If im a man? which in reality i am and lets say im directly attracted to men only.......................... Yet deep down inside I feel im the women in the relationship............ yet on the outside (my physical appearance) is that of a some what effemenant "boy" with girlish features more or less the look of being androgynous, Am I gay? or am I strait?

Then is being a transexual nothing but a "feeling" :?: Or is it more? ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

It's definitely more than a feeling, but so difficult to quantify specifically. I mean, is one person "more" TG than another because that person lives her life as a woman and takes hormones, and another lives her life as a women, but hasn't started taking hormones? What if a person lives their life as a woman, but never takes hormones, and has no intentions of getting SRS? Is that person a tgirl, or not? I've long wondered if one can really be "more" TG than someone else? My experiences with some girls leads me to believe that there are at least a number of TGs who think so. And if a person doesn't take hormones, I know that these same girls are of the opinion that person is not a tgirl (and I agree, by the way). Still, there are so many situations that can be presented that can make what one thinks defines a tgirl suddenly evaporate into so much nothingness. I mean, there are a whole lot of people who believe if you get SRS, you're not a tgirl anymore, just a girl (which I disagree with, by the way). Very, very confusing...

[Jericho]

If you are you are, if you aint you aint.
It's that simple.
The rest is just trying to justify outward appearence.

You might as well say "if you took an average man off the street, and surgically transformed him into a woman [a damned good looking one] - Would that make him a woman?

[peggygee]

We may want to clarify some terms, a transgendered person is not
neccessarily a transsexual;

What does transgender mean?

Transgender is an umbrella term used to describe people whose gender
identity (sense of themselves as male or female) or gender expression
differs from that usually associated with their birth sex. Many transgender
people live part-time or full-time as members of the other gender.

Broadly speaking, anyone whose identity, appearance, or behavior falls
outside of conventional gender norms can be described as transgender.
However, not everyone whose appearance or behavior is gender-atypical
will identify as a transgender person.

What are some categories or types of transgender people?

Transsexuals are transgender people who live or wish to live full time as
members of the gender opposite to their birth sex. Biological females who
wish to live and be recognized as men are called female-to-male (FTM)
transsexuals or transsexual men. Biological males who wish to live and be
recognized as women are called male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals or
transsexual women.

Transsexuals usually seek medical interventions, such as hormones and
surgery, to make their bodies as congruent as possible with their
preferred gender. The process of transitioning from one gender to the
other is called sex reassignment or gender reassignment.

Cross-dressers or transvestites comprise the most numerous transgender
group. Cross-dressers wear the clothing of the other sex. They vary in
how completely they dress (from one article of clothing to fully cross-
dressing) as well as in their motives for doing so. Some cross-dress to
express cross-gender feelings or identities; others crossdress for fun, for
emotional comfort, or for sexual arousal. The great majority of cross-
dressers are biological males, most of whom are sexually attracted to women.

Drag queens and drag kings are, respectively, biological males and
females who present part-time as members of the other sex primarily to
perform or entertain. Their performances may include singing, lip-
syncing, or dancing. Drag performers may or may not identify as
transgender. Many drag queens and kings identify as gay, lesbian, or
bisexual.

Other categories of transgender people include androgynous, bigendered,
and gender queer people. Exact definitions of these terms vary from
person to person, but often include a sense of blending or alternating
genders. Some people who use these terms to describe themselves see
traditional concepts of gender as restrictive.

Source: http://www.apa.org/topics/transgender.html#whatare

[peggygee]

To the untrained and trained eye as well, it may be difficult to discern
the 'true' transsexual.

It can not ascertained merely by demeanor, manner of dress, etc.
Perhaps this will be helpful in making an accurate assessment:

Dr. Harry S. Benjamin's Gender Disorientation Scale http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/benjamin.jpg

Type One: Transvestite (Pseudo)
Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Could get occasional kick
out of dressing. Normal male life.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Hetero, bi, or homosexual. Dressing
and -- more --exchange may occur in masturbation fantasies mainly.
May enjoy TV literature only.
Kinsey Scale: 0-6
Conversion Operation: Not considered in reality.
Estrogen Medication: Not interested or indicated.
Psychotherapy: Not wanted and unnecessary.
Remarks: Interests in dressing is only sporadic.

Type Two: Transvestism (Fetishistic)
Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Dressing periodically or
part of the time. Dresses underneath male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual. Rarely bisexual.
Masturbation with fetish. Guilt feelings. Purges and relapses.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Rejected
Estrogen Medication: Rarely interested. Occasionally useful to reduce
libido. Psychotherapy: May be successful (in a favorable environment.)
Remarks: May imitate double (masculine and feminine) personality with
male and female names.

Type Three: Transvestism (True)
Gender Feeling: Masculine (but with less conviction.)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses constantly or as often as
possible. May live and be accepted as woman. May dress underneath
male clothes, if no other chance.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual, except when dressed.
Dressing gives sexual satisfaction with relief of gender discomfort. May
purge and relapse.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Actually rejected, but idea can be attractive.
Estrogen Medication: Attractive as an experiment. Can be helpful
emotionally Psychotherapy: If attempted is usually not successful as
to cure.
Remarks: May assume double personality. Trend toward transsexualism.

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)
Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with
insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman;
sometimes alternating.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido often low. Asexual or auto-
erotic. Could be bisexual. Could also be married and have children. Kinsey Scale: 1-4
Conversion Operation: Attractive but not requested or attraction not
admitted.
Estrogen Medication: Needed for comfort and emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance; otherwise refused or unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependent upon circumstances.

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible.
Insufficient relief from dressing. Sex Object Choice and Sex Life:
Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May
have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained.

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: May live and work as a woman. Dressing
gives insufficient relief. Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal
male as female if young. May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse.
Kinsey Scale: 6
Conversion Operation: Urgently requested and usually attained. Indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomaticrelief only.
Remarks: Despises his male sex organs. Danger of suicide or self-mutilation, if too long frustrated

Source: http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html

[peggygee]

Kinsey's sexual orientation scale

0 Exclusively heterosexual with no homosexual experience
1 Predominantly heterosexual, only incidently homosexual
2 Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3 Equally heterosexual and homosexual
4 Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5 Predominantly homosexual, but incidentally heterosexual
6 Exclusively homosexual, with no heterosexual experience

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/kinseyratingscale.jpg

[whatislove]

This is a trick question, isn't it? :)

So, I'll go with a transsexual is a transsexual who realizes they are transsexual and lives and looks accordingly or not accordingly to how a transsexual lives and looks.

A rose is a rose is a rose. Way to cover the bases! :)

[kambiid2005]

If a transsexual kid grows up in a forest, just like Tarzen, would any of you be able to identify that kid as a transsexual when the kid is 18-19yrs old?

[BrendaQG]

I want to specifically point out wha'ts encoded in Peggy's post. A transsexual WILL seek at least hormonal if not surgical modifications. So bringing up a person who has not had any hormones is a moot point. If they have not had hormones they could not look female at all...which while it is not the ultimate goal if you do not look female you will not be accepted as one.

Silvester.

I have to disagree. A transsexual by the definition I have given, is a transsexual no matter when they start or the specific cultural details of how they think of themselves.

[LG]

Interesting debate...

But first a silly joke:
SHE: My mom made me a transsexual
HE: If I gave her the wool, would she make me one too? All I ever get is socks.

Now the science bit:

There is a school of thought that contends that it's all down to physiological differences in the brain. The brain of an MTF TS is more similar, in some ways to that of a woman (in fact, the stats below actually suggest that it is more feminine- or, at least, less masculine) than a woman's), regardless if that TS has "come out" or has undergone hormone treatment or surgery. Nothing makes a transexual. You're either born one or not. Or, to put it differently, one is either born a physical male or a physical female, but one can also posses either a male or a female brain. When your brain type and your physical type don't match, then, effectively, you are a TS.

A science article and a less academic piece, from a site called Serendip's Exchange, below:


A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality

By J.-N. Zhou, M.A. Hofman, L.J. Gooren and D.F. Swaab

Citation: Zhou J.-N, Hofman M.A, Gooren L.J, Swaab D.F (1997) A Sex Difference in the Human Brain and its Relation to Transsexuality. IJT 1,1, http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

Transsexuals have the strong feeling, often from childhood onwards, of having been born the wrong sex. The possible psychogenic or biological etiology of transsexuality has been the subject of debate for many years [1,2]. Here we show that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour [3,4], is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones [5,6].

Investigation of genetics, gonads, genitalia or hormone level of transsexuals has not, so far, produced any results that explain their status [1,2]. In experimental animals, however, the same gonadal hormones that prenatally determine the morphology of the genitalia also influence the morphology and function of the brain in experimental animals in a sexually dimorphic fashion [6,7]. This led to the hypothesis that sexual differentiation of the brain in transsexuals might not have followed the line of sexual differentiation of the body as a whole. In the past few years, several anatomical differences in relation to sex and sexual orientation have been observed in the human hypothalamus (see [6] for a review), but so far no neuroanatomical investigations have been made in relation to the expression of cross-gender identity (transsexuality).


Biologically, the anatomy of a male and female are very different; from sexual and physical characteristics, such as genitalia and reproductive organs, to the differences in brain organization. Sexual dimorphism, or the difference between the male and female anatomy, is an essential component to maintaining genetic diversity in a population such as the human species. The variation between males and females promotes sexual reproduction and keeps the population constant. A transgender individual’s gender identity does not match one’s ‘assigned gender’ as a male or female. A transgenderist is a person who lives as gender opposite to anatomical sex, for example a person with male genitalia living as a woman (1). More recently, the term transgender has expanded to encompass a much greater range of different types of people, such as cross-dressers, drag queens, androgynies, transsexuals, and many more.

Evidence of the origin of transgenderism is seen very early on cave paintings in the habitats of early Homo sapiens where pictures of men wearing skirt-like clothing were common images drawn in the scenarios. Currently although there is no certain information, it is estimated that about 1 in every 80,000 people identify as being a male-to-female transgender individual while 1 in every 125,000 people identify as being a female-to-male transgenderist (2).

In the Netherlands, studies have been done that have compared the size of the hypothalamus of male and females, as well as male and male-to-female transgender persons. The scientists dissected the brains of six transgender individuals and discovered that the hypothalamus, or the master gland of the brain, could have a role in determining what sex and individual associates themselves with. The hypothalamuses in the brains of the males were over 50 percent greater than the hypothalamuses in the females, while the hypothalamuses of the examined transgendered individuals were over 60 percent greater than the males (3). Initially, it was not thought that the hypothalamus had a large role in influencing what gender an individual associates with, but with this new evidence it could be said that the hypothalamus does indeed have a greater influence on gender association. Since the hypothalamus of the male is greater than that of the female, and less than that of the transgender individuals, there would be a possibility that the male-to-female transgender could, hormonally, be more female than in individual female. Although the act of associating with a certain gender is done by a combination of many neural networks in the brain, the hypothalamus could potentially be the primary influence of understanding how one identifies him or herself as a specific gender.

Now I can't say for certain whether all this is always true and what it proves, but it does suggest that transgendered people are born transgendered. It does not mean they are wrong in the head, as some may have suggested, but that they are wired to be of a different sex to that into which they are born. Ergo, transgendered women can actually be thought of as women who are trapped in male bodies.

I think this kind of research clears up a lot. I think cultural factors and parenting have nothing to do with it.

This is at least one theory and it's one that, for lack of a better hypothesis, I tend to accept. What do others think?

[muhmuh]

regardless if that TS has "come out" or has undergone hormone treatment or surgery.

id disagree on that since to be transsexual instead of transgendered you actually have to go the way of changing your physical sex rather than "just" having a non matching mental gender


It does not mean they are wrong in the head, as some may have suggested

wrong in the head is of course a very insulting way to put it but if these results hold true transsexualism would indeed be a mental birth defect (and just to make sure no one gets the wrong end of the stick this is meant purely as medical reality and not in any way meant to insult)

[LG]

regardless if that TS has "come out" or has undergone hormone treatment or surgery.

id disagree on that since to be transsexual instead of transgendered you actually have to go the way of changing your physical sex rather than "just" having a non matching mental gender

Okay, possibly, if you wish to define a TS as a TG who has begun transformation and use TG as an umbrella term which includes TS and drag queens as some do. But it is somewhat of an argument in semantics. Where do you start? Some Asian girls have had no hormone treatment and have no breasts, but because they have smaller bodies and finer features than Europeans look very feminine. Is it makeup, hair or actually going all the way with HRT, FFS and, eventually SRS? When does a TG then qualify as a TS? Too difficult to call, and many people use the words TG and TS almost interchangeably, while others will define the worlds differently to the way you do.

Here is one site that talks about TG transitions as those not involving SRS and TS transitions as those which include SRS:
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html

The point here, anyway, is not to define the term but to seek the reason for the condition (to put a medical spin on it). And I think the reason may be physiological rather than cultural- not a defect per se (and I know you didn't mean the word pejoratively), but a difference.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

To the untrained and trained eye as well, it may be difficult to discern
the 'true' transsexual.

It can not ascertained merely by demeanor, manner of dress, etc.
Perhaps this will be helpful in making an accurate assessment:

Dr. Harry S. Benjamin's Gender Disorientation Scale http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/benjamin.jpg

Type One: Transvestite (Pseudo)
Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Could get occasional kick
out of dressing. Normal male life.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Hetero, bi, or homosexual. Dressing
and -- more --exchange may occur in masturbation fantasies mainly.
May enjoy TV literature only.
Kinsey Scale: 0-6
Conversion Operation: Not considered in reality.
Estrogen Medication: Not interested or indicated.
Psychotherapy: Not wanted and unnecessary.
Remarks: Interests in dressing is only sporadic.

Type Two: Transvestism (Fetishistic)
Gender Feeling: Masculine
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives as a man. Dressing periodically or
part of the time. Dresses underneath male clothes.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual. Rarely bisexual.
Masturbation with fetish. Guilt feelings. Purges and relapses.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Rejected
Estrogen Medication: Rarely interested. Occasionally useful to reduce
libido. Psychotherapy: May be successful (in a favorable environment.)
Remarks: May imitate double (masculine and feminine) personality with
male and female names.

Type Three: Transvestism (True)
Gender Feeling: Masculine (but with less conviction.)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses constantly or as often as
possible. May live and be accepted as woman. May dress underneath
male clothes, if no other chance.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Heterosexual, except when dressed.
Dressing gives sexual satisfaction with relief of gender discomfort. May
purge and relapse.
Kinsey Scale: 0-2
Conversion Operation: Actually rejected, but idea can be attractive.
Estrogen Medication: Attractive as an experiment. Can be helpful
emotionally Psychotherapy: If attempted is usually not successful as
to cure.
Remarks: May assume double personality. Trend toward transsexualism.

Type Four: Transsexual (Nonsurgical)
Gender Feeling: Undecided. Wavering between TV and TS.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Dresses as often as possible with
insufficient relief of his gender discomfort. May live as a man or woman;
sometimes alternating.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Libido often low. Asexual or auto-
erotic. Could be bisexual. Could also be married and have children. Kinsey Scale: 1-4
Conversion Operation: Attractive but not requested or attraction not
admitted.
Estrogen Medication: Needed for comfort and emotional balance.
Psychotherapy: Only as guidance; otherwise refused or unsuccessful.
Remarks: Social life dependent upon circumstances.

Type Five: True Transsexual (moderate intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine (trapped in male body)
Dressing Habits and Social Life: Lives and works as woman if possible.
Insufficient relief from dressing. Sex Object Choice and Sex Life:
Libido low. Asexual auto-erotic, or passive homosexual activity. May
have been married and have children.
Kinsey Scale: 4-6
Conversion Operation: Requested and usually indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Needed as substitute for or preliminary to operation.
Psychotherapy: Rejected. Useless as to cure. Permissive psychological guidance.
Remarks: Operation hoped for and worked for. Often attained.

Type Six: True Transsexual (high intensity)
Gender Feeling: Feminine. Total psycho-sexual inversion.
Dressing Habits and Social Life: May live and work as a woman. Dressing
gives insufficient relief. Gender discomfort intense.
Sex Object Choice and Sex Life: Intensely desires relations with normal
male as female if young. May have been married and have children, by using fantasies in intercourse.
Kinsey Scale: 6
Conversion Operation: Urgently requested and usually attained. Indicated.
Estrogen Medication: Required for partial relief.
Psychotherapy: Psychological guidance or psychotherapy for symptomaticrelief only.
Remarks: Despises his male sex organs. Danger of suicide or self-mutilation, if too long frustrated

Source: http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/benjamin_gd.html

Great Info Peggygee. Knowledge is indeed power! :P ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[LG]

An interesting looking site, which is relvant to both Peggy's post and mine, this is the website of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) formerly known as the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association, Inc. (HBIGDA).

http://www.wpath.org

The scientific study on the hypothalamus that I quoted in my post is from the website of their journal. There seems to be some good information and several links, but I haven't looked through.

Hara, could this be relevant to what we discussed? And Peggy, could you check that PM again in relation to this? What do you think?


LG

[TJ347]

I want to specifically point out wha'ts encoded in Peggy's post. A transsexual WILL seek at least hormonal if not surgical modifications. So bringing up a person who has not had any hormones is a moot point. If they have not had hormones they could not look female at all...which while it is not the ultimate goal if you do not look female you will not be accepted as one.

Umm... Pardon me, but that isn't true. There are at least five CDs in NJ and a tgirl I know personally that look quite feminine, and haven't taken hormones (well, the tgirl has since I first met her, but still...). I mean, have you seen some of the pics in the "club kids" thread? Those are some very feminine looking (in many cases), non-hormone taking, mostly heterosexual men. Very feminine looking. That's all I've got.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

An interesting looking site, which is relvant to both Peggy's post and mine, this is the website of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) formerly known as the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association, Inc. (HBIGDA).

http://www.wpath.org

The scientific study on the hypothalamus that I quoted in my post is from the website of their journal. There seems to be some good information and several links, but I haven't looked through.

Hara, could this be relevant to what we discussed? And Peggy, could you check that PM again in relation to this? What do you think?


LG

Hi LG,

I shall give that a look later when I return from work (tonight). ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[peggygee]

An interesting looking site, which is relvant to both Peggy's post and mine, this is the website of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) formerly known as the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association, Inc. (HBIGDA).

http://www.wpath.org

The scientific study on the hypothalamus that I quoted in my post is from the website of their journal. There seems to be some good information and several links, but I haven't looked through.

Hara, could this be relevant to what we discussed? And Peggy, could you check that PM again in relation to this? What do you think?


LG

I am familiar with the study you cited, not sure if many others on the
board are, thus it is quite relevant to the topic at hand.

As to the PM, I'm still generating a response to it. :wink:

[sucka4chix]

Dammit!! Drawn in by another Hara post!!!

I got into the argument a while back when people were posting that Lisa Lawer was never a true transsexual. I actually got convinced that being a transsexual is a state of mind, more than physical. My question is still if someone like Lisa was not a transsexual then what was she? She did porn as one of the top TS performers, and if you saw her in a movie or on the street, you wouldn't say "she might be a transsexual, but I'm not sure 'cause I don't really know where her head is at", you'd say she was a transsexual.
To ME if you have CROSSED from one SEX to another, by demeanor, physical attributes and other means, you're a transsexual. I don't care if you change back tomorrow--- yesterday you were a transsexual. If I get kidnapped by a mad scientist and wake up with breast implants and soft supple skin, long hair and look like a hot sexy woman, I would scream "you turned me into a transsexual!!" So I really don't buy fully into the opinion that you have to "feel" like the other sex. If that is the case, then, as I've said before, we need to invent a whole new set of words to define people who have intertwined sexual characteristics like tits and cocks AND the people who are attracted to them.

[BrendaQG]

The study done by Zhou et_al is far from conlcusive. It has a small sample size and those Ts's were all post op and had been on hormones for years. Their is no reason to belive that the brain would not be effected by hormones just as the body is. The gender related parts of the brain, if any exist, could be changed by hormones. Unless a study is done that rules out that possibilty the notion of brain sex will be on probation.

as for a TS needing hormones

CD's and club kids in their early teens and whatnot can look femm and not have hormones. They will eventually take them once puberty kicks em in the gut.

This is also a reason why I would disagree with their being some fundamental distinction between a transition that includes SRS and one that does not. SRS is a specific surgical procedure.... while transsexuals have existed when all that was available is castration. Castration's main benefit, a halt in masculinizeation, can be achieved non surgically via the correct administration of pharmaceuticals.

But to each her own . I have my way and she has hers.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

LG That looks like a very good source of information for transgenders with gender dysphoria and for men to gain much more in-depth insights on the matter we are discussing. ;)

I havent signed up on it yet but I believe that the website could enlightend alot of people on here especially transgenders in terms of where they could classify themselves accordingly.

Thanks for the very useful links once again. It was great tlaking with you off the boards. :P

~Kisses.

HTG

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Dammit!! Drawn in by another Hara post!!!


LOL Ya know ya luv me sucka! :lol: ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[sucka4chix]

Dammit!! Drawn in by another Hara post!!!


LOL Ya know ya luv me sucka! :lol: ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

Yeah, I do. Why fight it?

[LG]

LG That looks like a very good source of information for transgenders with gender dysphoria and for men to gain much more in-depth insights on the matter we are discussing. ;)

I havent signed up on it yet but I believe that the website could enlightend alot of people on here especially transgenders in terms of where they could classify themselves accordingly.

Thanks for the very useful links once again. It was great tlaking with you off the boards. :P

~Kisses.

HTG

Yeah, I'm going to have a better look at the site too.

I also really enjoyed our chat, thank you for that.

:)
LG

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

You're much welcome LG! ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[yodajazz]

whatever they identify themselves as.....
:(

I say that anyone who defines themself as one is. A person could identify as this and not have access to hormones and surgeries. I think some people are thinking about successful transexuals in their definitions, not all who identify.

Of course I would agree that transgender is a wider term, and does more properly cover the umbrella of behavior types.

My point is that transexuals are not limited to those that look good, or are considered passible. I have heard several times about supposedly gay males who get surgeries to make money as TS escorts. Whether or not they define themselves as TS or not is up to them. I believe that in Brazil "travestis" and transexual are separate terms, and that all travestis do not consider themselves to be transexual.

[BrendaQG]

The problem with self identification is that a person can say that and not mean it. Which does happen. Or they can say it, honestly think they mean it, then realize they never wanted it. Or they can say that and mean it but not be able to follow through for whatever reason. Or their are even people who start, go back then go forward again............ Plus infinite possibilites aside from that.

All of those infinite possibilities those are the trans gendered people. Only one state of being is the transsexual one. Living as a female with unreversible body modifications. The way I see things one starts out transgendered and graduates to transsexual at some point.

[peggygee]

The problem with self identification is that a person can say that and not mean it. Which does happen. Or they can say it, honestly think they mean it, then realize they never wanted it. Or they can say that and mean it but not be able to follow through for whatever reason. Or their are even people who start, go back then go forward again............ Plus infinite possibilites aside from that.

All of those infinite possibilities those are the trans gendered people. Only one state of being is the transsexual one. Living as a female with unreversible body modifications. The way I see things one starts out transgendered and graduates to transsexual at some point.

That would be my vote.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/Voting_Woman.gif

I agree.

[BrendaQG]

Now the question is....is the only irreversible body bodification that matters SRS? What about Orchi or even being effectively chemically castrated by years of hormones?

[yodajazz]

The problem with self identification is that a person can say that and not mean it. Which does happen. Or they can say it, honestly think they mean it, then realize they never wanted it. Or they can say that and mean it but not be able to follow through for whatever reason....

I think that all humans have a right to change their minds based upon experience. Who are we to say that a person does not really mean what their saying when they are talking about their own feelings?

I agree that transsexuals often have irreversible body modifications. But is the reverse true? That is, that no one is a transsexual who has not had irreversible modifications. So what surgeries are irreversible? Even some facial surgeries could be reversed, couldn’t they?

The problem with not letting people self identify is a problem I see here regularly. Similar to what Silvester has said: People are labeling others as ‘gay’ based on them doing something that the labeler does not like. For example, when people compliment someone who others don’t think is attractive.

[LG]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this, but I do think it's worth posting. I was reading through Calpernia Addams' website and came to the section where she explains both her own realisation that she was meant to be a woman and her feelings on how other people see transsexuals. She notes how she has yet to meet a non-transsexual who, in her words "'gets it' completely", although she notes that some have tried and come close.

I am still trying to understand it all, to understand how it feels and I accept that none of us guys can truly appreciate what the girls here have gone through. But I think I'm getting close.

An excerpt from: http://www.calpernia.com/aboutme/transsexual_definition.htm:

If you are coming to this page without any knowledge of me beforehand, it may come as a surprise to you that I am a woman who transitioned medically and legally in the past on my way to becoming the person you now know. The most basic description of me might include the following: When I was born, there were external characteristics that led a doctor working in 1970's Nashville, Tennessee, to identify me as a male child. My parents accepted this designation and raised me as male. From an early age, I experienced feelings that led me to believe I was female. Not just "liking boys" or other feelings relating to sexuality, but also feelings relating to gender -- the feeling that I was female. Upon reaching adulthood, after every effort to fake male behavior in an effort to fit in and deny my true feelings, I corrected my hormal imbalances and had surgery to correct my body so that it aligned more perfectly with my soul. Now, obviously, I am a whole person whose body matches her emotional, mental and spiritual self. This has been a difficult journey, medically and socially, but it has been the right choice for me and I have no regrets. This journey has freed me to be my true self, but it does not define who I am today. I am who I have always been, from earliest memory: a loving, creative, funny and intelligent female with hopes and dreams for happiness.

Preface

The following is an opinion, and as such it will probably be refined with time and further insight. Everything said here should be read as coming from my own personal experience, not as an ex nihilo talk point meant to assert my beliefs as the one true gospel. Obviously, I am not a scientist, psychologist or biologist, but I am a very intelligent, experienced and well-read student of life who has experienced transition first hand. During my experience, I watched everything with an artist's eye, looking to understand the what and why as well as the how. I am very aware of the social and legal issues, arguments and opinions that swirl around transsexualism and transgenderism, both from within and outside of our ranks. From my own life experience, I can say that if you are like the vast majority of people I've encountered from every possible background, you probably have the wrong idea about transsexuals. To be very honest, I don't really know a single non-transsexual person who "gets it" completely, although I am fortunate enough to know many friends, supporters and professionals who try hard enough that they come close enough. There are many transsexual and ts-identified people who "don't get it" either, in the way that I understand "it", just as there are many American citizens who can't name our current Vice President or locate Iraq on a globe. This writing may not be excerpted, quoted, paraphrased or summarized without permission.

What is a transsexual woman?

To me, a transgendered woman is someone who feels that she is fundamentally female (gendered), despite having been labeled as male since birth and raised as such by her parents. A transsexual woman is a transgendered woman who takes every step possible to align her physical form (her physical sex) with her soul, which includes medical, social and legal actions in most cases. Why do some people feel this way? I don't know. There are studies going on right now that suggest certain brain structures may be congenitally "female" in a transsexual woman's brain, or that a transsexual woman's brain may become feminized by certain hormonal conditions in the womb. These explanations seem likely to me, and seem to fit with my own lifelong natural tendency toward and identification with female identity. Some have asked, "How do you know what it is to be a woman?" and I can only reply with the question, "How does any woman know what it is to be a woman for anyone but herself?" We can never enter the mind, soul or body of another person and know the world from inside their experience of life. In the most factual sense, even the closest twin sisters in the world can only guess from what they see and communicate to each other, and from what the world communicates to them through speech and action, that their emotional, mental, physical experience of being a woman is the same for both sisters. They cannot see the world from inside the other's eyes, or feel the world from inside the other's skin. In that same way, I'll never see the world from inside anyone's eyes but my own, but deducing from what I've seen in the past and what I see now of other women and they way they move through the world, and by comparing the feelings I've heard women express to my own feelings, I have confidence that I am a woman.

Though some were better at suppressing its expression than others in early life, with most transsexual women I have known, their gender was always a part of their soul and other people recognized it. And once they decided to transition socially, medically and legally, people recognized their womanhood on an instinctual level. Whether they were a plain, frumpy old lady with white hair, extra weight and no fashion sense or a hot, sexy young club chick. Whether people could tell immediately that their body had spent a long time under the influence of male hormones, or they were the softest, most delicate gazelle of a girl. They were obviously giving 110% in an effort to join the community of women, and people who met them for the first time knew at a gut level that they should be addressed as "Ma'am", "Miss", "she" and "her".

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Great post LG. I have pretty much the same views as her even as a kid. :)

Thankyou for sharing excerpts from her site. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

[LG]

Great post LG. I have pretty much the same views as her even as a kid. :)

Thankyou for sharing excerpts from her site. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG

Thanks and you're welcome. Reading all that really helped me understand things a little further. And I spent all my morning today reading through her site.

[Hara_Juku Tgirl]

Thanks and you're welcome. Reading all that really helped me understand things a little further. And I spent all my morning today reading through her site.

:P Awesome LG. I likewise like to read all things TG related amongst other things. ;)

~Kisses.

HTG