Poll: Catcher in the Rye Vs. John Lennon

[suckseed]

Assume the if JD Salinger hadn't written CITR, Chapman wouldn't have killed Lennon. There can be only one. Your choice?

[Jericho]

If he hadn't been killed, would he be held to be so iconic today?
Or, would he be just another 'working class hero' from that era? Past his best and largely ignored.

[suckseed]

Yeah, it's tough. IF he would have been great, and helped somehow stamp out American-Idol style faggotry in popular music, then I could live without the book. Big if. I'm noticing lately, however, with my new ipod that Beatles are one of the bands that everyone, coworkers to customers, seem to enjoy hearing. We had an American-Idol style pop singer performing a concert where I work the other day - sweet kid and babelicious for sure, but the music was just tiresome. I seriously wanted to give her a Billie Holiday or at least a Randy Crawford cd to listen to.
I guess this is my way of saying that when I was growing up, there were very arguably better artists on the radio. Where's today's Stevie Wonder? Muddy Waters? Aretha? Led Zep? Pink Floyd? MC5?
Bah - get off my lawn, you rotten kids! *Lets screen door slam, hitching up pleated trousers and muttering*

[TJT]

"Kick out the jams,Motherfuckers!!!!" lol.

I think Chapman's obsession w/John Lennon was the cause of the killing. 'Catcher in The Rye" just gets dragged in because Chapman was obsessed w/it too.

Lennon was past his prime and bit out of touch when he was killed,IMO. Still I was shocked and saddened when it happened.

[ezed]

I think if John Lennon was asked he would have said "Erase JD Salinger's book or me? Take me, I'm spent. Me wife's turning into a wailing banshee."

[signupjustforthis]

CITR is one of my favorite books.



1. “Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules.”
“Yes, sir. I know it is. I know it.”
Game, my ass. Some game. If you get on the side where all the hot-shots are, then it’s a game, all right—I’ll admit that. But if you get on the other side, where there aren’t any hot-shots, then what’s a game about it? Nothing. No game.


If John Lennon was still alive, maybe he would have helped bring an end to the war on iraq. :)
I doubt it though, I think he would just be another old hippie people won't pay too much attention to

It's Better to burn out, than to fade away. ...


I think everything happens for a reason, it's not for sure that John L won't be killed if there were no CITR, who knows how many lives were saved because of this book? and how many people have gotten through tough times because they could relate to Holden Caulfield? I love Holden.

[suckseed]

good point, signedupjustforthis. may I call you Signy? :)
What should we call you, anyway? My name is Alex.

[Aragon21]

John Lennon said as much that he would be killed by a crazed fan in interviews (watch "The Beatles Anthology.")

True we can't possibly know what more sweetness would have come from him, but was there more that any artist could ever say that wasn't so eloquently stated in "Imagine"?

I would speculate that John was closer to the Rolling Stones in the way that he would likely have kept his music fresh and significant, than he was to Paul McCartney and his continual strive to recapture the Beatles vibe. (The Beatles had their time, were appropriate for that time, and owned that time.)

Still "Imagine" is a song that I can weep for in it's simplicity, beauty, and profound message all at the same time.

On the Beatles and cross referencing to another thread, I loved the George Harrison's song in the credits of "Time Bandits" which is another of my favorites for movies and post Beatles, former Beatle songs.

"Dream Away", by George Harrison

Oh ry in eye ay - oh ry in eye ay
Oh ry in eye key ooh lay
Ka kay ooh lau ee - oh ry in eye
Say te lee ay vee show

Midnight sunshine silent thunder
Sky as black as day
Only a dream away

Chorus

Waking while youre still deep sleeping
Finding youre not here
Watching a dream appear

Tumbling through a thousand centuries
You dont know where youll land
Its so dark in mythology
Treasures of history to be found
Near the legends of time
All the handiworks remain there
Only a dream away

Chorus

Greedy feeling wheeling dealing
Losing what you won
See the dream come undone

Stumble you may with the elementary
Lucky you got so far
All you owe is apologies
Measure the mystery and astound
Without taking up time
So the handiworks remain there
Only a dream away

Chorus

In out, hot cold, up down, young old
What a lot to do
Sharing a dream with you

Chorus

The words written don't give justice to the instrumental part...George Harrison was the sound, John Lennon/Paul McCartney were the lyrics, and I guess I gotta give Ringo props for being the glue.

[TJT]

Ringo made that band go. Aragon. He wasn't a great technical drummer,but he was a strong and driving one. If you have a chance to hear the early recordings w/ Stu Sutcliffe,give the early ones w/ Ringo a listen immediately after. You can hear the energy shoot up w/ Ringo on the drums.

With the Beatles ceasing to perform live so soon after they hit it big,the impact of how Ringo drove that band gets lost in the heavily produced recordings after '65/'66.

[suckseed]

Interesting stuff. When I think of Ringo I often think of 'A Day In The Life.'
The tom work makes it to me. Picture a typical drum beat there instead - kick, snare, kick kick snare. No sir - don't like it.
For me - and I'm not saying I don't enjoy some modern bands - (in fact Doug Martch said he picked Built To Spill's drummer because he was a Ringo aficionado) - it gets increasingly difficult to find music that doesn't suffer from overly recycled ideas or irritating trendy styles. Whatever bands one may find right now that deliver, the scene in general seems about as fresh as an "Am I Gay" thread here. I was too young to appreciate the music of the sixties except on a subconscious level, but the sense of discovery in those days must have been something.
It's funny - looking back at the eighties with the synth pop/new wave stuff, even though that was never my thing, there were still a lot of songs that became well known to the average person. Franz Ferdinand, Modest Mouse, etc. represent typical college rock now, but where is the good hard rock? And have the Beatles been replaced by Snow Patrol and James Blunt? And wtf is up with the Socal bands where the singer alternately screams incoherently into the mic trying to be brutal, then sings whiny and sincere like a bad Blink 182 imitator? I work with a lot of hard drinking blue collar kids working in the restaurant and doing maintenance - they're okay with their Dropkick Murphys, which is great, but - I guess I'm saying there doesn't seem to be any youth movement related to music. Look at the lack of student protests in the US. There's no consensus. I guess in the final analysis, modern music and modern life do mirror each other.

[signupjustforthis]

You can call me Dee, some of you will know who I am, haha i posted on another transsexual forum...well I don't care anymore, i enjoy coming to both forums. You can see some of my picturesfrom myspace from the link in my sigature. They are not adult pictures at all.

[Cyclops]

If he hadn't been killed, would he be held to be so iconic today?
Or, would he be just another 'working class hero' from that era? Past his best and largely ignored.

You mean like his fellow former Beatle Paul McCartney

TJT says;

"Ringo made that band go. Aragon. He wasn't a great technical drummer,but he was a strong and driving one. If you have a chance to hear the early recordings w/ Stu Sutcliffe,give the early ones w/ Ringo a listen immediately after. You can hear the energy shoot up w/ Ringo on the drums. "

Stu Sutcliffe never played the drums,if you are goin to make such a statement at least get your facts straight ,the drummer they let go tobring in Ringo was Pete Best

[suckseed]

well, George Martin had this to say about Paul: "It's silly to pick apart his lyrics. Paul's not deep."

[Jericho]

You mean like his fellow former Beatle Paul McCartney

Paul McWho?

Yah...Pretty much.

[lumberjack]

I'm afraid if Lennon were alive today, he'd be another annoying celeb showing up at every peace rally, arm in arm with Fonda, Penn, Sheehan, singing the ole 'give peace a chance' tripe.

If Catcher in the Rye were never written, Chapman would have found something else to obsess on and intermingle with his own demons.

[suckseed]

Still, this is kind of a sad realization for me. At this moment more people would choose the book over the man who wrote Imagine. Paul Simon had his biggest success as a writer many years after his golden era. Right now, music seems to have lost its power to be much more than entertainment. I can't think of the last time I've been amazed by a new song. Wait - there was Hollaback Girl....

[HornieHubbieinCT]

As far as I'm concerned, That son of a bitch that killed killed him wasn't just a murderer. He was a thief. He stole from all of us. He stole that voice that was just waking up after a long sabbatical and looking around. If there's any dead artist I want to hear from, it's John Lennon. I want to hear what he'd think about right now. Maybe he'd be just another celeb...but I doubt it. He had the chance to be that, and shook his head instead. Sure Sir Paul's had a great run. He can write a song. But nothing he's done since compares with the work he did with the Beatles. John's best work was done solo, Imagine, Mind Games, even the work on Double Fantasy, Woman, Beautiful Boy, I'm Losing You, Watchin' the Wheels.

HH

[Jericho]

Possible "in poor taste"ness ahead.

Following on from this, "Died before their time, or at the right time"?

James Dean
Marilyn Monroe
Marc Bolan
Johnny Rotten

[emmettray]

Did Jericho die before his time?

Poisonous monkies?

[Jericho]

Did Jericho die before his time?

Poisonous monkies?

Termites

[Cyclops]

Did Jericho die before his time?

Poisonous monkies?

should that read "Poisonous Monkees"? :lol:

[suckseed]

As far as I'm concerned, That son of a bitch that killed killed him wasn't just a murderer. He was a thief. He stole from all of us. He stole that voice that was just waking up after a long sabbatical and looking around. If there's any dead artist I want to hear from, it's John Lennon. I want to hear what he'd think about right now. Maybe he'd be just another celeb...but I doubt it. He had the chance to be that, and shook his head instead. Sure Sir Paul's had a great run. He can write a song. But nothing he's done since compares with the work he did with the Beatles. John's best work was done solo, Imagine, Mind Games, even the work on Double Fantasy, Woman, Beautiful Boy, I'm Losing You, Watchin' the Wheels.

HH

My homie!