If one has never served in a war:

Does he/she have the right to be for or against a war?

[insert_namehere]

Absolutely.

Soldiers aren't the only people killed in them, you know.

Absolutely.

Soldiers aren't the only people killed in them, you know.

Right you are. Many a campaigns have died in wars, too.

[Coroner]

I was 7 when the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina broke out. That was exactly on April 30th, 1992 and spent the war until august 1994. I have all reasons to be against the war and to be against that brainfuck-position called patriotism. I was not a soldier you guys have no clue what it means not to have water, electricity or something to eat. Many of my family members died serving in the army and 2 of m best friends died in front of my eyes in december 1993 when we used to have a snowball fight and a bomb crashed about 15 meter from us. They were on the wrong place and I´d be dead too if my father didn´t call for me to come home.

[guyone]

OK Coroner. I guess you're King of the Planet now.

[Coroner]

OK Coroner. I guess you're King of the Planet now.

well, I was a kid and wasn´t too emotional with the war.... but try to say this to someone who really served in Iraq or Vietnam.... u´ll be shot

[guyone]

Try to say what?

[olite71]

Nope, just as one who has never been murdered has any right to be against murder.

What say you, sheepmike? Gonna continue to dance around the issue?

[Caleigh]

in the spirit of individual rights and freedoms i think that anyone who WANTS to go to war, should go.

all the chickenhawks in gov't who vote for a war should HAVE to go serve in front line positions.

leave the rest of us here in peace

[trish]

Of course one doesn’t have to have served in order to be for or against a war. But as you know, a man’s opinions and actions make the man, and the same for a woman. You cannot voice an opinion on a subject and expect not to be judged for you opinion. Moreover, you cannot expect that judgment to be independent of your action (or in this case inaction). Were I against the current military fiasco in Iraq, but did nothing about it. Didn’t pester my Congressmen, my Senators or let’s say I didn’t even participate in a simple rally in my own town, I wouldn’t have the respect any side of the debate. If you’re of service age, of sound mine (you might get off there) and body, and if you’re encouraging others to go fight in Iraq in order to make it safe and secure for you over here, well sure you can voice that desire…but don’t expect to be respected for it.

[SarahG]

Absolutely.

Soldiers aren't the only people killed in them, you know.

Right you are. Many a campaigns have died in wars, too.

Curious... whats your take on civilian roles (fighting or not) in conflicts? Say the civilians (exmilitary or military rejects) in blackwater?

I always thought the role of a solider was to implement policy, not to debate it or create it... 'least thats the way a guy I was with explained it to me once.

I would think that the views of those doing the same job for better pay (say blackwater) would be worth at the *least* listening to as well as the noncivilians.

[thombergeron]

TFan, the point is not that military service confers only veterans with the right to an opinion on matters of war. It is that this administration's supporters routinely denounce its critics as "hating America," when many of these critics have in fact proven their patriotism through military service.

I think that the war in Iraq is a shameful waste of blood and treasure and that President Bush is a national disgrace. I hold that opinion specifically because I love this country, and I'm proud to be a part of its history.

And yet, even though I gave the United States four years of my life, even though I served under fire in two theaters, I am routinely accused by supporters of the administration of being an enemy of my fellow citizens.

Even though I genuinely feel that the actions of this adminstration, enabled by its supporters, are causing great harm to this nation, I have never questioned anyone's patriotism, and have never accused anyone of "hating America."

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Beatrice Hall, 1906

[chefmike]

I've just been informed that you don't need to, technically, fight in a war to be a veteran.

I fought the war on terror. I'm looking for my fellow Saddam fighters.

Where you at, fellow veterans?!?!!!


Take that to your local VFW and see if they'll let you join.

Yeah here that, Sheepmike? Take that to the local "Veteran of FOREIGN WARS hall" and see if they let you get away with calling yourself a "Veteran" LMAO

Chef would be welcome at my, or any other, VFW...He has actually served in the military, unlike the super patriots posting here. All real (not self proclaimed) veterans are free to join.

Thanks, Oli. I'm sure my former shipmates would find it both ludicrous and humorous that a grocery clerk such as TFool has declared their service to their country to be null and void.

We weren't collecting hazardous duty pay for our flight deck duties because we were bagging groceries somewhere like TFool.

Nor were those brave servicemen who perished on flight decks in both war and peacetime, and still do to this day.

They served with honor, as did I.

TFan, the point is not that military service confers only veterans with the right to an opinion on matters of war. It is that this administration's supporters routinely denounce its critics as "hating America," when many of these critics have in fact proven their patriotism through military service.

I think that the war in Iraq is a shameful waste of blood and treasure and that President Bush is a national disgrace. I hold that opinion specifically because I love this country, and I'm proud to be a part of its history.

And yet, even though I gave the United States four years of my life, even though I served under fire in two theaters, I am routinely accused by supporters of the administration of being an enemy of my fellow citizens.

Even though I genuinely feel that the actions of this adminstration, enabled by its supporters, are causing great harm to this nation, I have never questioned anyone's patriotism, and have never accused anyone of "hating America."

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Beatrice Hall, 1906

Another point is, we are in this war. Whether or not you believe entering into it was a mistake, if you don't support victory over the enemy then you're advocating defeat.

Of course the "magical" thinkers will pervert language to redefine "Victory" into something other than victory and that's part of the problem in this country. Manipulation from libtards.

[thombergeron]

It's already over, kiddo. It has nothing to do with "supporting victory," whatever the fuck that means.

[insert_namehere]

Another point is, we are in this war. Whether or not you believe entering into it was a mistake, if you don't support victory over the enemy then you're advocating defeat.

Of course the "magical" thinkers will pervert language to redefine "Victory" into something other than victory and that's part of the problem in this country. Manipulation from libtards.
The curious thing here is, as Walt Kelly said, "We have met the enemy and he is us".

Invading Afghanistan, while probably not the sharpest idea anyone ever had (ask the old Persian Empire, British Empire or Soviet era Russia), could at least have a tenuous thread of connection to the "war on terror". Manufacturing a rationale to invade Iraq never HAD a thread, except for the one spun out for the UN and England and later debunked.

The result is, the United States became the invader, disruptor and now the supposed re-assembler of Iran. There is no "victory" to be won here - only a moral obligation to restore some sort of order and structure to the place. Whether that's possible without putting a thug in the driver's seat is open to question.

I suppose that's "magical" libtard thinking as well as a perversion of the term "Victory", but it's hard to imagine any other sort of "victory" possible.

At the end of the day, can anyone see any good that can possibly come out of this debacle for America?

[thombergeron]

At the end of the day, can anyone see any good that can possibly come out of this debacle for America?

That pretty much cuts to the heart of it.

In fact, is there a single corner of the globe where U.S. national security has improved over the last six years?

[yodajazz]

There are some good post in this thread, particularly Coroner and Thomberon. I served for two years honorably in the US Army. I have always been against the invasion of Iraq.

Invading a country which was no direct threat to the US, and killing innocent people was and is not in the best interests of the US. It did help Iran by eliminating a direct rival, by weakening the US military, as it is bogged down. I could go on at length, but I'll stop for now.

War should be a last resort for humanity. This was not the case for invading Iraq.

[ScubaSteve00S]

Hmmm.....so Interesting. I'm also a combat veteran, and I am totally for the war. We got rid of Sadam, which will still make a diffrence in the end. Being a part of the MI Community also let me in on quite a few other things. Before the war, our oil reserves were at 75%. After this war, 150%. We doubled our oil. Just a fact some of you should know. Although not the greatest idea, I followed my chain of command and leadership. Bush = Idiot.
Bush also = Leader. Unfortunately, a true Soldier will follow the leader...no matter what. That is how our country has always survived and went from 13 Colonies to the Greatest Super Power around. To all you Non-Veterans...it's ok to be against the war. Your choice. Just don't be against all the soldiers who are protecting your freedoms 24/7.

[insert_namehere]

Unfortunately, a true Soldier will follow the leader...no matter what.
By that logic, would you say soldiers of the Vichy French were "true Soldiers", whereas the Free French were mutinous?


Just don't be against all the soldiers who are protecting your freedoms 24/7.
Prior to the formation of the Office of Homeland Security and the passing of the Patriot Act, that statement wouldn't be quite so painfully ironic.

[Coroner]

Hmmm.....so Interesting. I'm also a combat veteran, and I am totally for the war. We got rid of Sadam, which will still make a diffrence in the end. Being a part of the MI Community also let me in on quite a few other things. Before the war, our oil reserves were at 75%. After this war, 150%. We doubled our oil. Just a fact some of you should know. Although not the greatest idea, I followed my chain of command and leadership. Bush = Idiot.
Bush also = Leader. Unfortunately, a true Soldier will follow the leader...no matter what. That is how our country has always survived and went from 13 Colonies to the Greatest Super Power around. To all you Non-Veterans...it's ok to be against the war. Your choice. Just don't be against all the soldiers who are protecting your freedoms 24/7.

I wonder what would happen if all German, Austrians and all others who served in the SS. Hitler was a leader, should I follow him? This is one of the most stupid theories a man can claim. You don´t think like a soldier, you think like a murderer motivated by oil reservs that don´t belong to you. You´re not even able to make a difference between what is right and what is wrong no matter if it´s your country. You can´t follow fascism. A true soldier is an idiot who´s got no brain.... "a true soldier will follow the leader". Don´t be such stupid, man. You have the right to protect your country but protecting your country in Iraq makes no sense. You should know that there will an end point when people say STOP and when you can´t attack anybody you want whenever you want and for whatever you want.

The soldier will follow the leader..... you sound really totalitarian. Sadam´s soldiers followed him, too..... according to your avatar, you´re one of those "new patriots" or the second generation. Those are the worst.

[guyone]

Yeah, man...peace & love. Let the terrorists wipe us all off the map. We infidels should not stand against the oncoming Caliphate!

[trish]

ideas don't hurt, neo. don't take them sooo seriously.

[eggbert]

Tfart, you're a moron. Wait I'll say it a little louder...TFART, YOU ARE A MORON!

[trish]

guyone worries:

Yeah, man...peace & love. Let the terrorists wipe us all off the map. We infidels should not stand against the oncoming Caliphate!

It’s been noted many times before that terrorism is a tactic and not an ideology or a state. One cannot have a war against terrorism. Indeed, even those who would wage one practice it. It is as if Britain’s King George had declared a war against fighting from behind rocks and trees. We are not at war against terrorism; not even a metaphorical one. So who then struck the World Trade Centers and brought them down? Who blew a hole in the Cole? Who collapsed the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City? Who abused children and stockpiled illegal weapons in Waco, Texas? Who’s bombing abortion clinics? Who’s interfering with the science education of our children? Our struggle is not against terrorism, but rather fundamentalism. Not just Islamic fundamentalism, but all religious and political fundamentalisms. One does not fight fundamentalism with war, anymore than with “peace and love.” Reason, education, political and economic diplomacy are among the strategies most effective against the memetic diseases of the mind which lead to extremism and inflexible ideologies. I fear there are a few in this forum who have a mild case of said infliction; guyone, WMC, TFan you're definitely infected.

[guyone]

Praise the State!

I have seen the light! Let the evil entity called the United States be destroyed by the power of whoever the democrats want. Hopefully we who do not deserve to live will be tortured then exterminated.

Praise the State!

Praise the State!

For the State is all and we are nothing.

[trish]

Praise the State!


:roll: where'd that come from?

[qeuqheeg222]

someone burped the baby...

[thombergeron]

Hmmm.....so Interesting. I'm also a combat veteran, and I am totally for the war. We got rid of Sadam, which will still make a diffrence in the end. Being a part of the MI Community also let me in on quite a few other things. Before the war, our oil reserves were at 75%. After this war, 150%. We doubled our oil. Just a fact some of you should know. Although not the greatest idea, I followed my chain of command and leadership. Bush = Idiot.

Welcome, bro. I was 96 Bravo 90-92. After Just Cause I didn’t want to see any more combat, so I applied for sigint school. Ironically, that’s what got me sent to the Gulf for Desert Storm. The rest of the battalion got to stay home.

I’m not sure what you’re saying about oil reserves. Usually, “U.S. oil reserves” refers to recoverable oil in the ground within U.S. territory. Are you talking about the Strategic Petroleum Reserve? The SPR had dwindled to something like 75% of capacity prior to the Bush Administration. President Bush directed DOE to fill it in November 2001, and now it’s at something like 104% of target capacity. But that didn't have anything to do with Iraqi oil. Can you be more specific about which reserves you're talking about?


Although not the greatest idea, I followed my chain of command and leadership. Bush = Idiot.
Bush also = Leader. Unfortunately, a true Soldier will follow the leader...no matter what. That is how our country has always survived and went from 13 Colonies to the Greatest Super Power around. To all you Non-Veterans...it's ok to be against the war. Your choice. Just don't be against all the soldiers who are protecting your freedoms 24/7.

Huah, Steve. That's a tough one. The UCMJ was amended after Nuremberg to give U.S. military personnel the right to refuse an unlawful order. But how does a rank and file troop prove an order to be unlawful, a lá Ehren Watada or Augustin Aguayo? The President orders you up, you go.

I totally disagree with you about how the U.S. has survived over the past two-hundred years, though. That we have a dedicated and professional military is incidental. I served alongside some French and Brit troop in Desert Storm who were so fucking strack they shit boot polish.

The U.S. has come out on top through our special relationship with personal liberty, an economic system that rewards ingenuity, and free and compulsory education.

[guyone]

The U.S. has come out on top through our special relationship with personal liberty, an economic system that rewards ingenuity, and free and compulsory education.

Very well said. Bravo!