See What Happens When Someone Sticks Up For Gay Marriages...

[Thuggish_Intellect]

As much as we think America has progressed socially, we get little (in this case big) reminders that it's no so progressive after all.

More than the economy, more than jobs, more than education, more than terrorism, more than Iraq...people just didn't want Gay folk getting shacked up, or people playing with baby embryo's...

No soon as the election was over did the results come in that EVERY state gay marriage was on the ballot, it got defeated SOUNDLY...which brings me to this question.

I know Liberals aren't the only cats who dig transsexuals...how could you (as a Republican or a Democrat who supported the ban on gay marriages) support a party who's primary sticking issue (exit polls have confirmed "moral values" was the number one thing on people minds who voted for GW) was dead set against the very thing you endulge in everyday?

[Thuggish_Intellect]

[quote="J"]untill we eliminate religion from this world we will all suffer...how can someone believe in this bullshit when the entire bible is filled with hate towards women, gays?? encourages slavery??[quote="J"]


I have a very deep grasp of religion. The bible isn't the problem, it's peoples use of the bible that is. Some people don't realize that God also gave us common sense and good judgement. This is the same argument I have with people who say Republicans are against abortion because it's wrong to take a life but, on the opposite hand support the death penalty...a life is a life...if we're truly talking in the eyes of an all loving God. That's a part of man morals fault. We are not perfect. We try to mold the world into our image. We try to force people to believe what we believe, with no compassion or understanding for those who don't view the world through the same lense.

[quote="J"]explain it to me please, not with hate filled rants or ridicule, but with logic, like i do!![quote="J"]


Logic is learned not taught...As much as we think America is this great big melting pot of cultural diversity and understanding...we are not. America is so segregated and racist underneath it makes me sick to my stomach at times. My niece came home in tears the other day, crying because she was called a Nigger Mut (because she's half black/half white), in her young mind, she hasn't distinguished mommy being white from daddy being black, all she knows is that she has two parents who love really love her. But America still doesn't see it that way.

[quote="J"]and one more thing..imagine during slavery they took a poll of all people to see who wanted to abolish slavery..of course most white people who owned slaves would not vote for it...[quote="J"]


Let's get this straight once and for all...Nobody really was against slavery if we look at it statiscally (even the so called friends of the blacks weren't that gung ho). If it were not for the foreign pressure/attacks on America and the need to have the slaves to help fight for America's independence, left to the christian white, we'd probablly still be slaves....But now America has a really really nasty problem...45+ million black people/45+million hispanic people/10+ million Asian Americans...what you gonna do? It's too big of a "problem" to ignore...you gotta do something...divide them into haves and have nots...Bush got nearly double the black vote he did in 2000 (christian southern blacks), 45% of the hispanic vote, and nearly 40% of the asian vote (the most affluent class of individuals on average in America...yes, more than white people!)...divide and conquer always works, all the while energizing your base (rich-middle class white men and there subserviant wives)


America's been fucked up for years...we've just been fooled the past 30 years thinking the civil rights movement actually helped changed this country for good...lol

[Thuggish_Intellect]

trying to explain the relevance of eating apples to someone who's only interested in eating oranges or explaining my religion to an aetheist (no knock against you or what you believe)...nothing will get accomplished.



killing homosexuals!


<-----------My bible never said anything about killing homosexuals, not quite sure where you pulled that from? Yes it says homosexuality is wrong and is a sin but hell so is gluttony and lust...we're not perfect but we live to strive towards perfection...I think people get it confused...humans (especially catholicism) tends to put more weight on certain sins and less on others on a barter system with heaven...



encouraging and regulating slavery!


<--------Again, not quite sure where you pulled that from, in fact, the writers of the "bible" were slaves themselves, persecuted for practicing there religion...not quite sure where you got this info from? Yes, it's been taken out of context and used incorectly but, I could say that with any religion/belief...

implementing king rulership, and the pyramid system of having the rich control the poor!

---------------My friend, that's not just the bible...lol...you have the caste systems of india, the communistic system of Cuba, the dictatorships of Russia...you get my drift...absolute power corrupts absolutely...even in religion, man is responsible for his own actions...not the bible.

being litered with tales of vengence, murder and mayhem, often times as morals on how god treats people who cross him!

---------------your reaching here...have you bothered to read the bible?...I've read the Koran, studied Kamalaa, researched budhaism, and found christianity...I won't knock anothers religion even after i've gained a true understanding of it...You see , I don't have the i'm right and your wrong approach, I have the I believe what I believe, you believe what you want to believe approach to it all..

thats just scratching the surface of the most violent, evil book ever published...



IM all ears..and respectfully await even an iota of logic here, because i beg and cry to my religious friends and i never get anything close..simply blind faith and stupid shrugs......[/quote]

[Felicia Katt]

How and why do people quote "the Bible" on this issue when there are actually several versions, and the differences in passages can be profound

Leviticus 20
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads

Leviticus 20
13 '(1) If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Leviticus 20
13"If a man has sex with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is abhorrent. They must be put to death; they are responsible for their own deaths.


Leviticus 20
13If a man lies with a male as if he were a woman, both men have committed an offense (something perverse, unnatural, abhorrent, and detestable); they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20
13"The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense.

Leviticus 20
13It's disgusting for men to have sex with one another, and those who do will be put to death, just as they deserve

thats just a few of the versions of the same verse. see how it has mutated so radically in just a few hundred years.

Now consider what else that that same Chapter and Verse of the Bible proscribes, under penalty of death (and in this order)

cursing your mother or father
adultery
sleeping with your father's wife
sleeping with your daughter in law
bestiality (the animal gets put to death too)

Now consider that other provsions of that same Chapter:

permit polygamy
prohibit sexual intercourse when a woman has her period,
ban tattoos
prohibit eating rare meat
ban wearing clothes that are made from a blend of textiles
prohibit cross-breeding livestock
ban sowing a field with mixed seed
prohibit eating pigs, rabbits, or some forms of seafood
requires Saturday to be reserved as the Sabbath

now, they might not carry the death penalty, but they did call for serious punishment, including banishment from the faith

Now consider that the Bible is thousands of years old, has been translated from several different, cryptic languages, and wasn't really written as a "good book" but was instead more like an anthology of stories picked by its editors(excluding all sort of of other stories that didn't fit their view point) so who can really say what the Bible says. or means. its actual words and their context are lost. as is their relevance.

I think people who try to use the Bible for their own purposes know all that. I didn't hear about any shellfish amendments to the constitution, after all.

just selfish ones

Felicia

[ABSOLUTE SHADE]

OMG... I cant believe this is a TOPIC on here!!

The bible thinks everone on this board is disgusting! Leave it at that!

[seaman]

Just remember that legislation against same sex marriage also passed in alot of Blue States - California (actually, this was a court decision), Oregon, Michigan included. To me, this shows why Kerry was soooo fucking dicey on gay rights - it isn't a uniting issue for democrats.

Think of Michigan: Democrats in Michigan aren't the socially liberal commie NYC intelligentsia we speak of here. Its organized labor and urban minorities. They buy into the Democrat economics but clearly want little to do with the social agenda. This is why Kerry (no clear social agenda - always on the fence) carried the blue states but the refendums were shot down.

Democrats should look past the republicans on who to blame for gay marriage barriers - its also their brethren Kerry supporters. And, its a certainty that Kerry wouldnt have supported gay marriage in office, lest he lose an important election bloc. Whine all we want about Bush, we'd have had the same issue with Kerry.

[Thuggish_Intellect]

Before christ atoned/offered himself as a sacrifice for the sins of man...I don't subscribe to the old testament. Modern day christianity and evangelical christianity is based on the new testament.

[runningdownthatdream]

Religion is really just a set of rules created by people to enable them to cohabit within a geograhical area without creating too much conflict. In this regard it isn't very different from communism or fascism or any other set of 'rules' whose express purpose is to subjugate the individual to the collective. Religion should not be confused with an individual's attempt to recognize and make themselves a part of whatever higher power to which we all belong....for instance following the path of Enlightenment as taught by Siddhartha among others.....(so-called 'buddhism' is not a religion although people with inhibited mental capacity and/or a desire to make sense out of something which perhaps they cannot comprehend will and have attempted to turn those teachings into a religious institution).

In this 21st century the only place for religion is as a pillar on which people who are afraid of the unknown can lean on............remarkable how people claim to have free thoughts but are yet enslaved to the idea that they are inferior and exist on the outside of all that is natural.

"Christians" (there was only 1 christian so the rest are pretenders) should educate themselves with respect to their religion. Determine its roots.....as well as the branches which comprise the tree. Recognize that it is an amalgam of many older esoteric traditions that have been woven together. There is also a vast difference between the written (i.e.: biblical 'christianity' and that which is 'practiced' with the practiced version borrowing heavily from celtic paganism.

This bastardization is not only restricted to 'christianity' but to all of the other 'major' religions as well.

Suffice to say that if anyone is serious about attaining higher congress with whatever force comprises us and the rest of the known universe, they should also study mithriac, gnostic, hermetic, luciferian etc etc disciplines and broaden their minds. Otherwise to speak of 'christianity' and the 'bible' and 'quran' and 'talmud' and 'god' and all the other bullshit that those caught up in 'religion' like to talk about, you are really only exhibiting your complete and utter ignorance.

No disrespect to you my brother.......but the people who created those books which make up the bibles of the various 'religions' are responsible for a tremendous amount of wickedness...including slavery, the inquisition, your inability to marry the tranny of your dreams.....to continue to advocate this religion is VERY much like the slave priasing his master's kindness............

Hope you get my point.......

BTW..........for any curious people out there...(maybe you 'J') check out Malleus Maleficarum (aka: The Witches Hammer).................remarkable!

[runningdownthatdream]

great great post running...
.the 3 groups of people who i feel the most terrible for are women, gays and blacks, all of whom have basically been forced this religion upon them which has had the greatest hand in their discrimination...

Exactly! Yet.......would you not say that the greatest advocates for 'religion' in the western world continue to be women and blacks....(I don't know about gays cos I'm not in the scene)......I guess that they are so accustomed to the hype that they don't know how to live without it. Kinda like how abused people stay in abusive situations.......

[Ecstatic]

Religion should not be confused with an individual's attempt to recognize and make themselves a part of whatever higher power to which we all belong....for instance following the path of Enlightenment as taught by Siddhartha among others.....(so-called 'buddhism' is not a religion although people with inhibited mental capacity and/or a desire to make sense out of something which perhaps they cannot comprehend will and have attempted to turn those teachings into a religious institution).
Though in some ways you take a harder line than I do, I recognize something of a kindred spirit here, running. I've posted similar comment especially viz. Buddhism (I consider myself a Buddhist in the primal sense of the Buddha's teachings, but have no affiliation with nor desire to affiliate with any Buddhist "church" as such). I also consider Jesus a Buddha who lived in a time and culture which could not comprehend his teaching and hung him on a tree for it. In similar fashion, pagans and wiccans--especially witches--have been persecuted in Europe and the US until modern times (and now often more subtly). Well written post!

[runningdownthatdream]

Hey great to be acknowledged by you two.....you guys post a lot of the most worthwhile reading on this board.

Check out this site....it has grown tremendously over the years and has some very interesting material: http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm

Cheers

[Ecstatic]

Thanks, running. And thanks for the link; I've been to that site before, but not for a while. I'll check it out again.

Of course, of all the gods and goddesses, one of my favorites is Hermaphroditus! I recently bought a beautiful 9.5" bonded marble statue of a katoey (ladyboy) name Lok, based on a ladyboy the sculptor met in Thailand, as my personal represenation of Hermpharoditus. Lovely she is, with very nice breasts, long hair below her ass, a sweet face, and a lovely uncut Thai cock (flaccid). For more, see http://www.thenymphaeum.com/katoey.htm. Here's a pic.

[Thuggish_Intellect]

the church being the biggest slave trader in history they make ridiculous excuse like thuggish just did..did u see how articulate he was before that...even if u dont buy into the old testament


Pardon me if i'm wrong but where did you highlight the text in either testement where it specifically said white men shall make slaves of all Africans?

As I stated at the beginning of the thread...It does not good trying to explain the relevance of apples to someone who only wants to eat oranges...you have your beliefs and I have mine, if you find comfort in yours, great!

I think, therefor I am. I can not doubt my own existence. Scientology can not explain life or when life as we know it, started...so in your point, nobody knows anything really, everyone's hypothosizing! Where does space end and begin? What happens after death? Explain why it is I see vivid pictures in my head that you can't see...When did time begin, when will it end? If you're going to take the scientific (The so called "intellectual" approach to it all) road, do me a favor and answer those questions intellectually?

The problem is, you can't. Just as no one man can correctly define religion and faith. I know "it" lives in me...it may not live inside of you, but that's to your design...

[Vicki Richter]

Well... I don't really care about gay marriage. I think marriage is stupid to begin with. Outside of my parents, I've seen so few successful marriages. Why would anyone want that? Think of all the money those lawyers are missing out on on gay divorces.

I can guarantee there are guys on this board who are married and hate being married. There are married guys sleeping with transsexual escorts. It's really not much of an institution anymore. That makes me sad.

[runningdownthatdream]

Marriage is really any melding of things or people into one unit.....and I don't believe it has anything to do with either the government or 'churches'. It is a personal choice that two people make......the institutionalizing of it though destroys the best things about it......I agree that it is sad so few people choose to develop deep, longlasting relationships.......we have to get over the whole concept of male/female relationships being just business transactions (which is what they started out being - in recorded history anyways) and move on to the more spiritual side of things.................maybe in a few hundred years people will awake - we are in the age of Aquarius after all!

[runningdownthatdream]

Uhhhh .......who said anything about monogamy!?!?!?!?!

[Ecstatic]

I can guarantee there are guys on this board who are married and hate being married. There are married guys sleeping with transsexual escorts. It's really not much of an institution anymore. That makes me sad.
I'm sure you're right, Vicki. I'm just glad I'm not one of them. Yes, I am married, and yes, I sleep with (euphemism there--never spent the night) transsexual escorts. But I love being married (most of the time--there are always rough spots in any relationship) and love my wife deeply. No one I'd rather spend my life with, not by a long shot. We have a great deal in common, from music to poetry to a love of nature etc. However, I am bi and she is str8, and what's more she has zero interest in sex (no, not just in me, but in sex altogether). So I see an escort now and then to scratch two itches at once, and I love her all the more for her very open acceptance of that. I told her about my first encounter and she's been very supportive ever since--just asks me to play safe.

So a marriage can work--as running says, it's a personal choice two people make, and I resent the government trying to define or delimit that choice for any two people. I'm proud of my state (Mass) for being the first and only (thus far) to legalize same sex marriages, even if that action alone was what cost Kerry the election (now that is sad).

P.S. I hope you're healing well, Vicki. All the best.

[Thuggish_Intellect]

aethestic attack on the bible and christians and religion...you have proven a fatal flaw on your own...you have no sense of mutual respect. You condemn people you have never met. In your assesment of christianity, you've passed judgement on all christians. The same ills you spoke of the bible, you've done yourself without having religion or a belief (outside that -----of your mind) to blame it on...to once again prove my point, religion is a set of guidelines man either chooses to live by or not...Man is responsible for himself and his actions. The bible is but a text. The same as any other book you've read.

m glad to see u drop the apologizing for the bible's evils, something u clearly cant do...i proved for all to see how the bible comdemns gays to death and yet u choose to believe...



---Again, you're out to prove some anti christian crusade against me. You asked to talk, not debate, remember. I know where my religion and strenght lies, what you choose to do/believe is totally up to you.

on to your point about science...once again, i am so glad u raised it..u see, the beauty of the universe, of all these amazing things we cannot comprehend, is the amazement and wonder of it all..



---you clearly have never really read any sort of text related to the bible have you? The bible says there are things not yet revealed that will be revealed. It's as simple as that. And you further illustrate your lack of research on the origin of science and philosophy...both were based on the presence of religion...do your research my friend. Omniscient genius.


when ur an atheist ur mind always wants to know and learn, when ur religious, u dont even care, because god made it all and there is nothing science can teach us that the holy book doesnt

---How do you know, you're not religous?


every decade religion HAS to make concessions to science, NEVER the other way around..


---you are pitting science against religion...a terrible embarrassment to your intellect. You're assuming that science is an entity in and of itself...lol You're assuming that all scientist are aetheist...the list goes on...

[Thuggish_Intellect]

oh, and everywhere in the world where there is conflict youlle find religion somehow involved...mmmm, anything good this fucking this does???


So your research has lead you to believe that all aetheist are peace loving scientist who engage in relationships with multiple partners with no fear of death and no tolerance for religion...yeah that's the life!

[magic9inch]

vICKI I PLAN TO MARRY YOU

[Felicia Katt]

So your research has lead you to believe that all aetheist are peace loving scientist who engage in relationships with multiple partners with no fear of death and no tolerance for religion...yeah that's the life!


as long as I can have anonymous sex with multiple partners and experiment with mind altering drugs, all in a consequence free environment, I'll be right as rain

:)

meow

[Chet_X]

u never see an atheist teenager wearing an explosive belt scream "all praise to darwin" before detonating himself


J, that's classic

[Thuggish_Intellect]

and for the record atheists never had any crusades, inquisitions, holocausts and they dont drive planes into buildings killing thousands of innocent people....u never see an atheist teenager wearing an explosive belt scream "all praise to darwin" before detonating himself


---You're reaching here buddy...even though your rhetoric is laughable...your me vs. all religion stance is funny, yet you always seem to drift towards christianity...lol...again, if you look at the prior discourse we've had and let the average audience judge, you actually seem the bitter more discontent of the two...and you're supposed to represent the peace loving aetheist of the world.



i actually feel bad for u


---please don't do me any favors...I am loved and abundantly blessed.


while ur intellect is screaming "this fuckin J kid makes so much sense, what the fuck am i defending here?


---actually my heart pours out for you, a blasphemous sinner who's somehow lost there faith...there's hope for you yet!


I'd rather put my faith and trust in an all knowing God, than another man...