Israel and the double standard

[guyone]

Funny I don't remember reading anything about Israelis running forced labor camps and massive gas chambers?

It is a shame that the European Jews a group of people that where almost systematically destroyed in Europe can move to Palestine and implement the same type of practices

This is my last post in this thread. Sheep, take over. wmC. This thread will be a haven of people from bad families.

[White_Male_Canada]

Hope we can get a good debate going on about the issue of Israeli and Palestine.

To start it off here is a link to a new movie discussing the issues

http://www.occupation101.com/Intro_stream_hi.html

It is a shame that the European Jews a group of people that where almost systematically destroyed in Europe can move to Palestine and implement the same type of practices that they learned from the concentration camps on these poor people. Goes to show how power corrupts! What does everyone feel on this issue.

Nonsense.

- Israel is a democracy.Arabs have the vote in Israel

-The Tribe of Judah lived in the area for 3,700 years. Judea and Samaria
were deeded to the tribe of Judah.

-The Romans destroyed their state in Judea in AD 70

-The arabs came to dominate by invasion. As nomads no
attempt was ever made to create a state.

-1921,the British separated 80 percent of the Mandate, east of the Jordan, and created the Arab kingdom of "Transjordan." It was created for the Arabian monarch King Abdullah, who had been defeated in tribal warfare in the Arabian Peninsula and lacked a seat of power. Abudllah’s tribe was Hashemite, while the vast majority of Abdullah’s subjects were Palestinian Arabs.

-1948, to partition the remaining quarter of the original Mandate to make a Jewish homeland possible. Under the partition plan, the Arabs were given the Jews’ ancient home in Judea and Samaria.

-The Arab League – representing five neighboring Arab states – declared war on Israel on the day of its creation.

-The muslims who lived in the Arab area of the UN partition did not attempt to create a state of their own. Instead, in 1950, Jordan annexed the entire West Bank.

-1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan attacked Israel for a second time and were again defeated. It was in repelling these aggressors that Israel came to control the West Bank and the Gaza strip.To the victor go the spoils.

-1973, Syria and Egypt, abetted by Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and five other countries who gave military support to the aggressors, including an Iraqi division of 18,000 men. Israel again defeated the Arab forces.

--1964, sixteen years after the establishment of Israel and the first anti-Israel war,the PLO was created at a time the West Bank was not under Israeli control but was part of Jordan. The PLO, however, was not created so that the Palestinians could achieve self-determination in Jordan, which at the time comprised 90 percent of the original Palestine Mandate. The PLO’s express purpose, in the words of its own leaders, was to "push the Jews into the sea."

--The official charter of the new Palestine Liberation Organization referred to the "Zionist invasion," declared that Israel’s Jews were "not an independent nationality," described Zionism as "racist" and "fascist," called for "the liquidation of the Zionist presence," and specified, "armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine." In short, "liberation" required the destruction of the Jewish state. The PLO was not even created by Palestinians but by the Arab League

[White_Male_Canada]

america has always been a democracy but that doesn’t mean everyone was equal. Just because Israel is a democracy doesn’t automatically mean that Arabs have the same kind of protections as the Jews.

As opposed to the rights of Dhimmini in arab/Persian/muslim dictatorships.

-The Tribe of Judah lived in the area for 3,700 years. Judea and Samaria
were deeded to the tribe of Judah –


Reply
Don’t forget that 4,000 years ago there was no concept of countries and sovereignty as we know it now. Tribes lived throughout the land not just Jews. Plus based on International law, you cannot make Biblical or Religious claims to the land, that’s the UN’s rule not mine.

You don`t get it. The land was deeded by God to the Tribe of Judah, as Muslim`s they must accept this due to the fact that they too adhere to the Old Testament regardless of any League of Nation or UN.


Reply
The ottoman empire was in control of most of the middle east for 500 years, that’s not a state but people where living throughout the area before, during, and after. Remember White Canadian Male, that most European countries where just barely emerging as a state.

The Ottoman`s instituted Tanzimat which allowed affendi to buy land from the fellahin. The arabs saw their own land sold to other arabs under their own feet 50 years before any Jew showed up. The Jews purchased land from two main sources: The crown and the wealthy Arab Effendi, both local and absentee. The fellahin were already dispossessed. The HopeSimpson report addressed the question of uprooted fellahin concluded that only a bit more than 800 families were actually rendered landless by Zionist land purchases over the decades from 1880 onward.

-1921,the British separated 80 percent of the Mandate, east of the Jordan, and created the Arab kingdom of "Transjordan." It was created for the Arabian monarch King Abdullah, who had been defeated in tribal warfare in the Arabian Peninsula and lacked a seat of power. Abudllah’s tribe was Hashemite, while the vast majority of Abdullah’s subjects were Palestinian Arabs.


Reply,
Don’t forget that the British Promised to give the Palestinians there own state for helping fight against the Ottomans in WWI. That never materialized because of WWII.


In 1922 they did just that. Trans-Jordan, in the area east of the Jordan River (which constituted 74% of the entire Palestine Mandate. Jews were forbidden by law to enter this new emirate and those there, removed. The British tried so hard they even went so far as to take the pro-Nazi, Hajj Amin el-Husseini, although indicted by the British for his role in the anti-Jewish riots of the early 1920’s, was appointed the “Grand Mufti of Jerusalem” by the British High Commissioner. They even went so far as to reverse their stand on the concept of Palestine as a homeland for the Jews, and a series of “white papers” limited the number of Jews that could enter the country.
It still did not pacify the arabs. The British then created the Peel partition plan. The Jews accepted, the Arabs rejected it –the 92% of the original Palestine Mandate they would now have was considered inadequate.




Reply,
Actually because of the instability between Jews and Arabs, Britain gave Jordan the west bank to stabilize the region, it was a cop out because England didn’t want to get involved any more.


The Arab forces of Jordan occupied the West Bank, and King Abdullah unilaterally and illegally annexed it to his Hashemite kingdom. King Farouq of Egypt declared Egyptian sovereignty over the Gaza Strip. Both actions were illegal in terms of international law, and in high-handed defiance of UN resolutions 181 and 194. So much for your UN/International law as the be-all-end-all arguement.


--The official charter of the new Palestine Liberation Organization referred to the "Zionist invasion," declared that Israel’s Jews were "not an independent nationality," described Zionism as "racist" and "fascist," called for "the liquidation of the Zionist presence," and specified, "armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine." In short, "liberation" required the destruction of the Jewish state. The PLO was not even created by Palestinians but by the Arab League


Reply,
. Zionism is a racist, secular, and violent movement.

You exposed yourself as just another pedestrian Jew-hating zealot who brings nothing to a debate but disdain and propaganda. This is the level of discourse heard as bearded students rant on a soap box waving PLO flags on college campuses yelling," Death to Zionism, death to America."
It`s page one off the old "kill the jew" playbook.

[guyone]

Stephen

The way you present your argument leaves no room for the existence of Israel and propose that they invaded then stole the land. Prior to 1947 the land belonged to England and quite frankly I don't remember any Palestinian government in place. The fact that the UN decreed the 1947 UN partition plan meant that Earth approved the division of land.

And there are no Jewish suicide bombers. Israel does not build schools and hospital on top of military bunkers calculated hedonistically in order manipulate public opinion.

[guyone]

I believe when you retaliate you go for the throat. This way you don't wind up paying for the same real estate twice.

[yodajazz]

I strongly believe that Israel had the right to exist where it does today.

But I also believe that the Israeli goverment has abused its power.
I believe that the 'abuse', in whatever form it takes is counter-produtive.
That is that it creates more problems (enemies) than it solves (eliminates). While it is not easy to do, justice for all is the most efficient path for humanity to coexist.

I consider it to be a criminal act for people to physically attack Israel. However it is also criminal for Israel to punish or kill innocent people also.
Reacting in legal, moral ways isolates criminal behavior, making it easier to hold the real criminals responsible for their actions.

The simple 'golden rule' Christian concept has been the answer all along.

[White_Male_Canada]

Arabs became the dominant local population for the first time in the 7th Century AD as a result of Muslim invasions. The Arabs were largely nomads and they had made no attempt to create an independent Palestinian state west or east of the Jordan and none was ever established. Because it`s not theirs(Gen 25:18 ).

The UN partition plan (resolution #181, November 29, 1947) created two states: the State of Israel for the Jews, and the State of Palestine for the Arabs.

The arabs refused and attacked.

Israel offered to return the land IT WON,and could have kept being the spoils of war, during the Rhodes Armistice talks and Lausanne conference in 1949.

The arabs refused.

After that, Israel passed a law that allowed Arab refugees to re-settle in Israel provided they would sign a form in which they renounced violence, swore allegiance to the state of Israel, and became peaceful productive citizens. Over 150,000 individual arabs did so.

1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan attacked Israel for a second time and were again defeated. Again, the spoils of war belong to the victor,that would include the West Bank and the Gaza strip, as well as the Sinai desert. Israel did not annex the geography but didn`t leave either. Because the arabs refused to stop their wars of aggression.

1973, the Arab armies again attacked Israel. Israel returned the entire Sinai under the Camp David accord.

The Oslo agreement was merely an arab hudna. In 2000, they officially launched a new Intifada against Israel, terminating the peace process.

Israel fights a defensive battle. If it wanted to it could wipe out the descendants of Ishmael off the map.


Arabs who left Israel in 48 and still alive have no legal right to return to Israel because those who represent them, arab dictatorships or monarchies,are still at war with Israel. International law,and common sense, does not require a country at war to accept hundreds of thousands of hostiles onto it`s soil.


Arabs who didn`t leave now number about 1.4 million in Israel. They have elected 12 reps in the Israel parliament, have judges sitting on the bench, have tenured professors teaching,etc. Israeli citizens of arab desent have more freedoms, education and opportunity than do any comparable arab populations in other democratic societies.

In the end it is God that deeded the land to the tribe of Judah and not descendants of Ishmael, Genesis 15:18, Deuteronomy 11:12, Deut. 33:13, Nu. 14:7, Ezek 20:6, Isaiah 51:3,etc.
And it was God who warned us all of Ishmael,” And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”

And we all know the arabs have only one plan, to wipe Israel off the map:
http://www.alqassam.ps/english/

[InHouston]

Hope we can get a good debate going on about the issue of Israeli and Palestine.

To start it off here is a link to a new movie discussing the issues

http://www.occupation101.com/Intro_stream_hi.html

It is a shame that the European Jews a group of people that where almost systematically destroyed in Europe can move to Palestine and implement the same type of practices that they learned from the concentration camps on these poor people. Goes to show how power corrupts! What does everyone feel on this issue.

How do I feel about this? Given your erroneous facts regarding the Israeli people, and your propagandist link to a movie via a URL titled www.occupation101.com, you strike me as the atavistic beast that is the radical Muslims, who smite the necks of innocent human beings in the name of Allah, or rather a god that doesn’t even exist in the first place. Or in other words, you strike me as a simple son of a bitch.

[eggbert]

This thread is stupid. The arguments have been beaten to death. Stephen, you're obviously an incredible moron. So why not just strap a bomb to your chest & blow yourself up like the rest of the mindless zombies that have preceded you. Have a nice day.

[InHouston]

Hope we can get a good debate going on about the issue of Israeli and Palestine.

To start it off here is a link to a new movie discussing the issues

http://www.occupation101.com/Intro_stream_hi.html

It is a shame that the European Jews a group of people that where almost systematically destroyed in Europe can move to Palestine and implement the same type of practices that they learned from the concentration camps on these poor people. Goes to show how power corrupts! What does everyone feel on this issue.

How do I feel about this? Given your erroneous facts regarding the Israeli people, and your propagandist link to a movie via a URL titled www.occupation101.com, you strike me as the atavistic beast that is the radical Muslims, who smite the necks of innocent human beings in the name of Allah, or rather a god that doesn’t even exist in the first place. Or in other words, you strike me as a simple son of a bitch.


InHouston, why don't you give me your side then

and by the way I am not Muslim in fact I am an American that is Christian but unfortunately most of my fellow christian brothers are so focused on Jews being the chosen people they forget about all the Hatred Zionists perpetuate against Christians in "The Home Land"

Now I can say that I have several Jewish friends, and I don't have a problem with them, they know about the injustice that the Israel government partakes in. What I don't like is Zionists who try to hide behind a vail of lies and have America do there dirty work.

Its funny how alot of you types (InHouston, WCM) automatically assume that someone that speaks about Israel is a Muslim. You guys think I am hateful but yet you group one of the largest religions as all evil. Very educated and open minded of you. I have found most people that talk so much shit about Muslims to be ignorant ass holes or Zionists trying to act all balanced and informed when in fact they just tell a bunch of half truths.

Now lets get something straight - Big difference between Jews and Zionists, but you guys should know that.

I have had great friendships with Jews and Muslims and that is why I can see two sides to the story.

Occupation 101 is not propaganda - this is the real life story of what Palestinians go through. Alot of people commenting are actually Jewish so I don't know what your talking about InHouston. But then again its people like you that think Israel cannot do anything wrong there soooooo perfect. Thats fine if I strike you as simple minded thats why this is a forum and you don't know anything about me.

Oh by the way is your boy Jimmy Carter full of propaganda or maybe you think he lost his mind. How about the countless organizations in Israel that are Jews speaking out against the injustice perpetuated on Palestinians - are they propaganda.

I don't know man but it seems like the Zionists got you too. Lets get it straight, I never said that some Palestinian groups are not extreme, yes some are but collective punishment sucks balls, and you should know all about that.

It’s futile to present my side of the issue to you because you’re neither open nor receptive to it. The purpose of your thread is to propagate your prejudice and hatred of Jews upon others. And don’t foist this crap about how you have Jewish friends and you don’t have a problem with them, because that point serves about as well as your grammar and spelling.

But what I wonder is where this contempt of yours comes from. I doubt that you’ve even visited the holy land, and don’t necessarily believe that you have Jewish friends given your attitude about them. You want my opinion? Okay. I think you’re one of those individuals who has had problems with the law, your credit, or tax problems, or all of the above and who knows what else, and therefore you harbor a deep resentment of any authority. You hate your government because it’s a super power. You hate Israel because of their superiority in the Middle East. You probably hate the police too, yet will be the first to dial 911 when someone is about to stomp your smart ass mouth in the dirt. This to me makes more sense than the case you present here.

And as far as you and your Muslim friends, all I have to say is this, fuck Islam, Christianity, and Judaism for that matter. The three great religions of the world all worshiping the same biblical God who can’t even get along with one another, and all for a god that doesn’t exist. Pick up a science book instead pal. Or is it too boring for you to learn that when you die you’ll be nourishing earthworms instead of praising Jesus in heaven? The core problem with all the ills in the Middle East, and most wars throughout history, is religion. I for one hope to see the day when reason and logic are prevalent, and religion is merely a historical subject of the past.


And ... your thread here is about as exciting and interesting as an insurance seminar.

[InHouston]

This thread is stupid. The arguments have been beaten to death. Stephen, you're obviously an incredible moron. So why not just strap a bomb to your chest & blow yourself up like the rest of the mindless zombies that have preceded you. Have a nice day.

Yes ... please do. One less asshole in the world.

[White_Male_Canada]

WMC - Although you present many of the facts you also leave out others that would create a more balanced argument. You make it seem as if Israel doesn't do anything wrong.

Actually, I`m burying you in the truth. The fact that you don`t know how to digest all of it means you`ve only been given half the story or only accept lies by ommission to help vindicate your "feelings" on the subject.

Zion is two hills of ancient Jerusalem. Zion grew to mean all of Israel. Zionism is a liberation movement. Zionism was written into the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine and was again endorsed by the United Nations in 1947 when Jewish independance was granted.

Emir Feisal, representing the arabs at the 1919 peace conferance said,

" We Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement.... We will wish the Jews a hearty welcome home.... We are working together for a reformed and revised Near East, and our two movements complement one another. The movement is national and not imperialistic. There is room in Syria for us both. Indeed, I think that neither can be a success without the other."

Zionism is not racism.

[InHouston]

Zionism is not racism.

Great point! However, to many liberals Zionism (and America) is imperialism.

[White_Male_Canada]

Zionism is not racism.

Great point! However, to many liberals Zionism (and America) is imperialism.

You and I may disagree about certain points of religion but we both agree, there are plenty of self-loathing , self-hating Jews and Americans around.

They remind me of neurotic Woody Allen characters in his movies.

[guyone]

You've got to admit one thing...Israeli women are pretty hot!

[yodajazz]

This thread is stupid. The arguments have been beaten to death. Stephen, you're obviously an incredible moron. So why not just strap a bomb to your chest & blow yourself up like the rest of the mindless zombies that have preceded you. Have a nice day.

Now, now my children! This thread has not been beaten to death. People in Palestine/Israel are litterally being beaten to death. But actually there have been a lot of facts presented here. You can state new facts or tell which ones you feel are most important. Name calling adds nothing good or relevant to an important discussion.

Why cant people see that other people have arrived at their point of logic through some form of experience. It might be the experience of a person telling them their story of injustice. No one has a monopoly on truth. New facts can always be discovered.

I believe that thw most important principle that mankind must decide is between the concepts of justice (usually for past wrongs), and mercy. The concept of mercy means that people forgive a past injustice, in order to go forward with a new peaceful order. These are both aspects of God (Allah) in Islam and in Christianity. (Jewish theology input would greatly help.)

Justice can also be applied forward in time. That means to me that all people are treated the same, and given access to goods and priviledges of the greater society.

This thread will have been beaten to death, when the cycle of stupidity that is our current world situation is beaten to death.

It is a shame that the European Jews a group of people that where almost systematically destroyed in Europe can move to Palestine and implement the same type of practices

This is my last post in this thread. Sheep, take over. wmC. This thread will be a haven of people from bad families.

What does that all mean anyways. Just trying to get some politics going, what you suddenly cannot handle a debate!


If you dont know what that means, why are you manipulating questions.
Good Christ! Stop manipulating and be a man.

Although I disagree with Israel's right to exist, it already does so you cannot change that



BULLSHIT DOUBLE TALK ALERT! aka, ISLAM!!!

[yodajazz]

You've got to admit one thing...Israeli women are pretty hot!

Well that's one thing we can agree on! The problem is that while half of the world's wars have been caused byl religion; the other half have been cause by jealousy of others (foreigners) dating the women of whatever country it is.

[yodajazz]

And as far as you and your Muslim friends, all I have to say is this, fuck Islam, Christianity, and Judaism for that matter. The three great religions of the world all worshiping the same biblical God who can’t even get along with one another, and all for a god that doesn’t exist. ... The core problem with all the ills in the Middle East, and most wars throughout history, is religion. ...



While I am a believer, I can't blame you for your sentiment. The problem as I see it, is that most religious people cant seem to judge which of their religious principles are more important. For example settling some 500 year old grievance vs living in peace today. Which will cause the greater good?

Another is using a doctrine violation as an excuse to violate ones own greater religious principles. I am defining doctrine, as a rule that is not that great of importance compared to major principles. I am thinking about the major disruption caused by a cartoon depicting the Prophet. Some innocent people were actually killed because of that cartoon. Which was the greater principle which should have been followed; an image or life itself?

Religion has some great ideas and intentions, but people get lost in the details and do the opposite actions.

[ezed]

Relax, peoples rise and fall. Take the US for example. A bunch of Puritans were persecuted in England, and fled to America. They plopped them self in America and were joined by other misfits and profit mongers from a variety of countries. They overthrew their overseas ruling bodies and proceeded to anialate the indegious people and put them in pens called reseverations.

Now 200 to 300 years later those indigenous people have created wonderful casinos on thoses reservations and are slowly but surely draining the ancestors of their conquerors one slot pull at a time.

What goes around comes around and all the blah, blah, blah doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the scheme of things. History moves in cycles. Have fun stop bitching, the persecuted tend to take care of themselves.

Has anyone seen the Roman, Spanish, Soviet or British Empire recently. We may be joining you soon. Wealth begets laziness and hunger begets power. Seems everyone gets their turn except France.

[guyone]

I didn't realize that Israel was ruled by a drunk 16 year old that lives in Hebron. Funny he didn't seem armed.

[guyone]

GALLOWAY????


He was on Saddams payroll! Get serious man! He's just a mouthpiece for terrorists. He'll shill for the highest bidder.

[guyone]

Galloway is a clown. I do listen to the Lebanese people who are sick and tired of Hezbollah's antics which include assassinating anti Syrian members of the Lebanese government.

[Coroner]

This is a serious case, you guys should recognize alternative paths to discuss :)

I fear I have to agree with Stephen, J. It´s really ignorant from you to call him antisemitic just because the critics on Israeli politics. Damn, who gives Israel the fucking right to attack Lebanon and burn it down to the ground? Lebanon is the most fucked up country in the Middle-East today because it´s just the battlefield where Israel and Syria are at war. The Lebanese people have no choice and no power to stop the chaos and there´s another problem they have.... that Hezbollah. Israel should activate it´s secret service and destroy the Hezbollah, because Hezbollah is a clerical-fascist movement but it seems that the politics Israel runs are not really far away from that ideology. But not bombing the whole country! I don´t understand why the Israelis who are much better educated and powerful, treat the Palestinians like they´re at war with Russia? I don´t know if Arabs want to destroy the Jewish people since I don´t know any Arab except one from my High School and all I get to know about Arabs thanks to the media are the fucking Hamas, Fatah and Bin Laden.

Israel has the power to end the war and you can´t blame the Palestinians for everything. Israel claims Hezbollah an enemy and bombs down the whole Lebanon. Wtf? That remembers me of Hitler overrunning Poland in 1939 that started with some Germans who dressed as Polish border policemen and attacked a German radiostation.

[Coroner]

in that, I gree with you, J..... Palestine would still look like Sahara without the Jews..... but why is a "civilization" doing this shit?...... you know, when I see that clowns with corans in their hands and "dancing in the streets", I don´t give a shit about them but I´m dissapointed that a nation who´s given lots of scientists uses the same methods...... I´m done with this, too...... Israelis and Arabs, it´s their problem