WHY IS IT THAT ITALY AND SPAIN ARE REALLY THE LAND OF THE TS

[Ecstatic]

I'm sure there's many reasons, but two I think are language and ease of immigration. Italian and Portuguese (the language of Brazil) are very close linquistically (both being Romance languages closely related to Latin), and while Spanish is a somewhat more distant cousin to Portuguese (the fact that Spain and Portugal share the Iberian penninsula is linguistically almost irrelevant), it's still much closer than English, which is a Germanic language. So Brazilian girls have a much easier time adapting to the language than they do coming to the US (other Latin Americans find the US easier because we have such a large Hispanic population that it's easier to get by with less English, but that doesn't help Brazilians).

Also, immigration to the US is much more difficult than it is to Spain or Italy, especially since 9/11. Another factor is probably culture: Brazil is closer to the Mediterranean culture of Spain and Italy than it is that of the US; likewise the climate is more similar (though the seasons are still reversed since Brazil is south of the equator).

I'm sure Seanchai or others can provide more detail and reasons, but I think you'll find these are common.

[christianrod30]

Sorry, let's put the things in order.

Portuguese and Spanish has the same language root. Portuguese derives from Spanish and both derives from Latin. Italian and French are more close in terms of language and both also derives from Latin.

The reason for Brazilian being more close to Italians is because Brazilian colonization in the end of 19teen century was basicaly from Italians and Germans. We have few influence of Spanish in our culture in Brazil. We are much more close to Italian and to Portugal since our ancestrals in the XVI century and so on were portuguese.

After this historical background, I have only to say that Brazilian shemales go to Spain and Italy because their immigration system is much more weak than US or Germany or Switzerland and also the Latin language is much more easy for us to understand than others. Moreover, Italians and Spanish men pay hundreds to have our shemales there. A scort program cost approx $100 for 1 or 2 hours in those countries. If you convert to our local currency it means that for one hour there you earn an equivalent of 3 or 5 hours here.

Many of our shemales get married there and buy apartments her for their family. People go to where money is. Shemales aren't different.

Regards

[Ecstatic]

Thanks, Christianrod30, for clarification. The monetary factor is one I had not considered, nor the importance of Italian and German emigration to Brazil in the 19th century, but both make a lot of sense. Yes, linguistically Portuguese and Spanish derive from the common source of Old Galician, which was spoken in the northwest corner of the Iberian penninsula at the time of the Arab incursion. Old Galician in turn derived from vulgar Latin (the Latin spoken throughout the Roman Empire as opposed to the literary Latin recorded in the great literature of the period), as did French, Romanian, Provencal, and Rhaeto-Romance (spoken in the Swiss and Italian Alps). French was heavily influenced by Celtic and German; Romanian by surrounding Slavic languages; and Spanish by Arabic. Italian remains the closest to Latin. I believe Portuguese remains closer to Old Galician than does Spanish (Catalan), largely due to the Arabic influence. It's in this sense that Portuguese is closer to Italian than is Spanish; Spanish and Portuguese share a fairly common vocabulary, but their pronunciation is quite different. Interestingly, it's generally easier for a Portuguese speaker to understand Spanish than the other way around, which probably also makes it easier for a Brazilian to immigrate.

[phungu2]

but if it was a money thing only, the US would win as I understand it from immigrint strippers :D

[tsluva]

Probably because i have such a strong love for Brazilian girls
( GG or TS ) ... i think it's a pity that we don't have a plentiful number
of them in the USA .


Personally, i've always been so incredibly attracted to
the natural beauty and physique ( big butts !) of the
South American women .

That's one of the reasons i continue to enjoy
seeing Brazilian TS porn.

i recall a similar discussion about the Brazilian girls in USA with
another poster mentioning the lack of personal proof of IDs as
being a big problem and another reason why
their immigration is so difficult.

But is it just South /Central America that has this problem ?

What about the OTHER countries outside the USA ?

[TexasTman]

I was in Ibiza, Spain two summers ago. I was at a regular club there and I clocked a very good looking t-girl. She and I chatted somewhat. (my spanish and her english left a lot to be desired) . She told me that she is a "travesty". I said that I knew. She was running with about 12 gay guys. They were all very cool and seemed genuinely happy that their friend had met and American that was interested in her. I took her home to my condo and we had a wonderful time. She was a total knockout. She was not an escort, she was just a beautiful woman looking for a good time. On my trip I might several other t-girls. None of them were escorts either. I however did not hook up with any of the other girls.

[Toro]

In my experience, there are a couple of reasons that TS are more accepted in Italy and Spain, but the main one is that those places are just liberal in general. A TS can live with less fear of getting attacked verbally or physically there than they can here.

But don't kid yourselves - they aren't treated as equal members of society there, either. It's sort of the reverse of the way it is here - the men are more accepting of TS and the genetic women in italy and spain give them dirty looks and say shit under their breath.

[christianrod30]

I agree that prejudice is terrible. I think we Brazilian and Italian and even French are much more liberal in terms of sex than puritan countries. Sex for us is not a taboo as I see for Americans. In the debate Bush vs Kerry I notice that there are some issues in the debate that for us is not relevant such being gay or not, abortion, etc. In our political scenario these issues are not in agenda. People really do not care about genetic, etc. To confirm that Brazil aproved a law that permits some researchs with cells ( I don t know the name in English).

Despite our catholic background, our people in Brazil is mixed. It sounds strange for an American to see this in your country. 45% of our people is mixed by white, black and native indians. 40% are genuine white and just only 10% are black and native Indians. When you go to other latin America countries you do not see such degree of mix.

This mix generates a very liberal society here in Brazil in terms of sex. It is not a taboo as I notice in some countries. But prejudice exists in any society. Some more than others. It is terrible.

[Toro]

In my experience, there are a couple of reasons that TS are more accepted in Italy and Spain, but the main one is that those places are just liberal in general. A TS can live with less fear of getting attacked verbally or physically there than they can here.

But don't kid yourselves - they aren't treated as equal members of society there, either. It's sort of the reverse of the way it is here - the men are more accepting of TS and the genetic women in italy and spain give them dirty looks and say shit under their breath.

[Ecstatic]

Mega, obviously christianrod30 or Toro could speak more authoritatively than I can, but from all that I've read, yes, trannys are considered gay in Brazil and those who have not had silicon enhancement are considered crossdressers, not transsexuals (travesti--not "travesty"). There appears to be a lot of pressure to undergo extensive silicon enhancement in Brazil, which is part of what makes the Brazilian girls so hot. Nowhere else do you see the emphasis on injecting silicon in hips and ass to give that Brazilian big butt look. Problem is that injected silicon will drift and shift with time, which can make a girl look really ugly over time. This is particularly true of injections in the hips and ass, which overtime can drift down the legs to form so-called "elephant feet"; they say you can tell a travesti's age by the amount of silicon in her feet. I'm no expert, but I've seen Domy (web mistress of brazilian-transsexuals.com), Frank and Seanchai all comment on this. One of the problems is not only just injection of silicon (as opposed to proper surgical methods), but that the injections are sometimes performed with industrial-grade silicon and by other girls or beauty parlor workers. (The reason: cost.) Silicon injections can also yield "lumpy" results--yuck.

tsluva, immigration to the US from anywhere has gotten much harder than it used to be. Even obtaining working visas is a much bigger hassle, so that many musicians for instance from even the UK rarely tour in the US because it's such a hassle. I've seen this up close this summer with both Donovan (certainly a well-known artist if his heyday was back in the 60s) and the Incredible String Band. For instance, the band had to demonstrate that no US workers could replace the members of the band for the tour. Ridiculous!

Yeah, we Americans are really puritanical as a society by comparison, aren't we, christianrod30? We laud our freedoms so boldly, but in some areas--like sex--we are way behind much of the Western world or Latin America. The US is often called a melting pot, and it's true in that every race and nationality is represented here, but you're right, Brazil is far more mixed, and I think that exotic blend of White, Black and Native Indian is part of what makes Brazilian girls so hot (back to your point, Mega). Oh, that mocha or cocoa skin tone, the facial features....

[lucx]

hi.. i live in italy and as i see it south american girls (not only brazilians!) come to italy only because the money thing... and maybe because in some ways lots of them have the double passport (italian and brazilian) due to their ancestors... se they can't be sent back to their birth nations if caught doing some escort work...
and i have to say also that there are not so much girls as u say... as i see from alannah partys there are much more girls in new york...
if anyone want to talk about this or anything else can leave me a pm...

[subray]

Can I put a European, albeit UK perspective on this.

We have quite a few Brazillian, Spanish and Italian T*Girls working in London. Many of them are here on student visas. However a lot of them are also illegals. They know that they can earn a lot more here and in mainland Europe than they can in Brazil etc. Also there is, ironically, a lot less competition over here. But accepted! No. As has already been said, amongst female sex workers they are often abused and abhored. Even in London, there is an ambiguity as to the status of T*GIrls. Most of society does not understand them and considers them freaks. They are mostly seen as gay and as such full under the laws that govern gay sex.

I dont think the language has much to do with it. Portuguese and Italian are as far apart as languages as English and Chinese!

[Ecstatic]

Can I put a European, albeit UK perspective on this.

We have quite a few Brazillian, Spanish and Italian T*Girls working in London. Many of them are here on student visas. However a lot of them are also illegals. They know that they can earn a lot more here and in mainland Europe than they can in Brazil etc. Also there is, ironically, a lot less competition over here. But accepted! No. As has already been said, amongst female sex workers they are often abused and abhored. Even in London, there is an ambiguity as to the status of T*GIrls. Most of society does not understand them and considers them freaks. They are mostly seen as gay and as such full under the laws that govern gay sex.
Interesting point of view. This seems to be the case around the world, though ranging in degree. Thailand, from what I've been told (lacking firsthand experience) has the most enlightened attitude in terms of accepting T's in society and not abusing or demeaning them (I've been told this is due to the Buddhist perspective on one's karma, that a katooey is living out her karma in this life and she is not penalized for this). But the ambiguity is everywhere. Look at the new US "reality" show about a dozen macho guys dressing as women, the Maury Povich show, or the infamous "There's Something about Mariam" show in the UK: we seem to accept T's or CD's as entertainment, but deny them equal status in society.


I dont think the language has much to do with it. Portuguese and Italian are as far apart as languages as English and Chinese!
Whether language has much to do with it or not, you couldn't be further off regarding the relationship of Portuguese and Italian vs. English and Chinese; English and Chinese belong to entirely different language families (Indo-European and Sino-Tibetan respectively) and are almost entirely dissimilar, with no cognates (other than words introduced in recent historical times into either language but none based on a common root). Portuguese and Italian (and Spanish) are closely related, while quite distinct, languages, all deriving from Latin and all members of the Romance branch of the Indo-European family tree. The relationship of Portuguese to Italian is closer to that of English to Scots (coeval languages which developed from a common source beginning approximately 1500 years ago but influenced heavily by different factors; e.g., Catalan Spanish by Arabic, English by French, and Scots by Gaelic and Old Norse).

[romeo]

Hi ecstatic is right,
I'm italian and even though I've never studied portuguese or spanish I assure you that I can understand what a portuguese or spanish is saying.
It is really easy because these three languages are very similar.

[subray]

I speak Italian, French and English but have no idea what my Portugese friends say when they talk in their own language. So that proves nothing. Language aside though, an earlier point about Brazillians having right to live in Portugal may be valid, but this may not cover the rest of the EU.

[OlenkaDC]

Hi all,
It seems there is a lot to be discussed about this topic... first of
all in some countries in South America (specially the one I come from)
if you dress up you are called "Travesti" (transvestite) regardless of
your orientation, there are no distinction between cd, tv, ts... they
are all "the same", the only distinction is with post-op tss that are
called "Travesti Operada" (something like 'post op transvestite').
In the case of a str8 CD for example, most of the people won't
understand why he would dress up being str8... some might understand
but will give the term "travesti" to him anyway.
Same there is no distinction between gay and bi guys they are only
called "gay", it is a very radicall distinction...
Back in the day all TVs would ONLY date and have sex with str8 guys, a
TV having a bi BF was source of laughs between other TVs, now it got a
little more open, now they use the term "Moderno" (modern) to refer to
those guys and tvs that like to give and much as to receive and seems
to be the raising tendendy nowadays (who doen't wanna be MODERN,
right?).

Regarding immigration, yes it is soooooooo much easy not only for
TGirls but for almost anyone to travel to Italy, why, because Italian
immigration rules are sooo easy to meet. For example if someone
(anyone) in your family currently dead or alive was italian, then you
can get an Italian passport, just show propper documentation and you
are good to go... some other people is just lucky enough like to have a
italian or italian-like last name.
Instead in USA you need to have a "Direct Relative" who already is a US
Citizen in order for you to get a Visa... the definition of "Direct
Relative" DOES NOT include brothers or sisters, just Father, Mother,
wife.husband and sons.