IS RELIGION CHILD ABUSE?

[GroobySteven]

Circumcision - un-necessary but done for religion comes to mind but regardless to that, it wouldn't just be religious who are abusing their children it would be any who indoctrined them into conforming to their parents believes other than ones which contribute to them growing healthy and allowing them to have open and questioning minds when they develop.


seanchai

[Vala_TS]

Interesting debate. I kind of agree.

In regards to circumcisons. Isn't it better to be circumcised? Plus, I'd hate to have to wash my dick every time I use it for one reason or another, plus, I am and I've seen guys/trannies in movies who have foreskin and I am disgusted by it.

AGTFB

[JANIRA]

I PERSONALLY FEEL THAT ANYTHING THAT IS ENFORCED ON A CHILD IS ABUSE,, THERE IS A DIFFERANCE BETWEEN DISIPLINEING YOUR CHILD TO RAISE HE/SHE WITH VALUES , AND LET THEIR MIND EVOLVE FOR WHEN THEY ARE OF AGE TO MAKE U UP THEIR OWN CHOICES. OPOSE TO ENFORCING RELIGION, OR ANY WAY OF LIFE AND MAKING THEM FEEL THAT ANY OTHER WAY OUT SIDE WHAT YOU MAY BE TEACHING THEM IS WRONG. REMEMBER CHILDREN ARE SPONGES AND WILL INTAKE EVERYTHING AROUND THEM, WHY CLOG THEIR MINDS & SOULS AT SUCH A YOUNG AGE??

[GroobySteven]

Interesting debate. I kind of agree.

In regards to circumcisons. Isn't it better to be circumcised? Plus, I'd hate to have to wash my dick every time I use it for one reason or another, plus, I am and I've seen guys/trannies in movies who have foreskin and I am disgusted by it.

AGTFB
I'm cicumcised also but there is no proof that is's better, whatsoever.

The reason you are disgusted by a foreskin is because you are indoctrined to believe that it's disgusting - ergo, child abuse.
Most Europeans are not circumcised and to many of them it's considered barbaric.
seanchai

[DJ_Asia]

I tend to agree with Nietzsche and his views on religion...so yes I think its harmful as religion has zero to do with morality and spirituality...just ask Pastor Ted

[Smog Boy]

Interesting debate. I kind of agree.

In regards to circumcisons. Isn't it better to be circumcised? Plus, I'd hate to have to wash my dick every time I use it for one reason or another, plus, I am and I've seen guys/trannies in movies who have foreskin and I am disgusted by it.

AGTFB


If you read, Bravo Two Zero by Andy McNab, there's a moment where SAS soldier Andy is saved from death by Iraqi's due to having a foreskin.

[Phat]

THERE IS A DIFFERANCE BETWEEN DISIPLINEING YOUR CHILD TO RAISE HE/SHE WITH VALUES , AND LET THEIR MIND EVOLVE FOR WHEN THEY ARE OF AGE TO MAKE U UP THEIR OWN CHOICES.

so you're saying in essence parenting should just cease to exist? the child will eventually figure it out for themselves, why teach any values to them at all?

I think values and morals should be taught, but not forced. whether it be religion, veganism, political opinion, whatever. teach your child what you beleive is right, but allow them to think for themselves.

[mrironknee]

A very good topic, definitely odd forum. Consider the following:
1. It is the sole purpose of the Parent(s) to prepare their children for adult life in society. The success of the children is greatly influenced by the teaching and examples set by the parents.
2. If a parent has a strong belief, it would be impossible for them not to want to incorporate this belief system into their child. Not only impossible, but irresponsible. Remember, these people believe in the importance of their ideologies as strongly as others believe in the importance of education, of wearing condoms, eating well, etc. It is a life and death belief. Why would you not teach that to your children?
3. That obviously begs the big question; what belief is right? Are any of them true? Who is to decide? If we allow one to be generally accepted, how can you not allow others? If you ask a Christian, he would give you numerous reasons that the Muslim religion is not only bad but possibly harmful. Others could say the same for Christians. And if you really think of it logically, all religions are based on huge leaps of faith to accept each premise, all based on some form of ancient or recent mythology.

Bottom line is, some people believe that if we could eliminate all religion the world would be a better place. I personally know humans that, without religion in their life, would and could not be a productive member of society, as they have no ability to think and control their actions for themselves.
There is no right answer. We cannot save everyone. Parents must be responsible for their children. Once the child is of age, they can decide for themselves their future course. If their life was damaged irreparably by their parents upbringing, that was their lot in life. Others are born to poverty, disease, slavery, etc. The world can be a cruel place, especially for the innocent.

Christianity formed the foundation on which America has become the worlds only Superpower and largest humanitarian contributor.

It has brought not only real global leadership, but a STRONG and FAIR one at that.

[GroobySteven]

Christianity formed the foundation on which America has become the worlds only Superpower and largest humanitarian contributor.

It has brought not only real global leadership, but a STRONG and FAIR one at that.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Nice. Needed a laugh on this cold day.

seanchai

You can laugh all you want but this topic has been covered on this board before. All who disagreed with me were subsequently PWN3D.

[specialk]

Christianity formed the foundation on which America has become the worlds only Superpower and largest humanitarian contributor.

It has brought not only real global leadership, but a STRONG and FAIR one at that.

This should be all the proof anyone needs, that religion is bad news :roll:

[chefmike]

Christianity formed the foundation on which America has become the worlds only Superpower and largest humanitarian contributor.

It has brought not only real global leadership, but a STRONG and FAIR one at that.

uh huh....

we just had to git rid a them pesky redskins first, right paleface?

hahaha is right...christianity got us a bunch of slave owning, homophobic, sexist, racist white land owners who told us all men are created equal....

in other words fuckin hypocrites...

this country became great when the liberals in this country said enough is enough and the sufferage movement and civil rights movement afforded people equal protection...if it was up to the xian majority in this country, women would still not be voting and black people would still be on the back of the bus...but for some reason i dont think youde consider that a bad thing...

LOL. Liberals like the founder of the Republican party, Abraham Lincoln?

You're a comedian!

Christianity formed the foundation on which America has become the worlds only Superpower and largest humanitarian contributor.

It has brought not only real global leadership, but a STRONG and FAIR one at that.

uh huh....

we just had to git rid a them pesky redskins first, right paleface?

Calling me paleface? Come on sheepmike. I'm sure you know that's not true.

do u really not know the difference between republicans today and their position on things and the way it was intended to be by licoln back then? or are u pretending not to, to perhaps fool some of the people here that arent as well read in a sort of fox news way? mmmm tough one...

Well I'm gonna let you paint yourself into a corner here. What exactly are the differences?

[chefmike]

Christianity formed the foundation on which America has become the worlds only Superpower and largest humanitarian contributor.

It has brought not only real global leadership, but a STRONG and FAIR one at that.

uh huh....

we just had to git rid a them pesky redskins first, right paleface?

Calling me paleface? Come on sheepmike. I'm sure you know that's not true.

No problem Uncle Tomahawk... :P

[chefmike]

Christianity formed the foundation on which America has become the worlds only Superpower and largest humanitarian contributor.

It has brought not only real global leadership, but a STRONG and FAIR one at that.

uh huh....

we just had to git rid a them pesky redskins first, right paleface?

Calling me paleface? Come on sheepmike. I'm sure you know that's not true.

No problem Uncle Tomahawk... :P

Oops...double post...

I guess that makes you Uncle Two Tomahwks... :lol:

[GroobySteven]

That's what makes it so funny - idiots like you really believe not only is America the only superpower and the largest humanitatian but that it is a world leader in fairness and with strength.

It's not worth arguing about but not wonder the majority of Americans are embarressed about people like you and pray that you don't travel abroad to sully it for them.
When you get a passport and travel further than Mexico or Canada (and not on the goverments expenense account) then feel free to comment - otherwise, shut the fuck up ... again.

seanchai

[LG]

TFan said:


Well I'm gonna let you paint yourself into a corner here. What exactly are the differences?


I'm surprised you don't know them, TFan. If you did, you would know that initially the Republicans were the party that embraced more liberal values and that over time the so called "GOP" has strayed from its priorities- it's values now are more conservative and its actions are far less progressive. This has been happening for a century but really took of after the war when the Democrats were seen as the more progressive party. In the 1970s and 1980s the Republicans emerged as a truly conservative party.

During the 1940s and 1950s the Republicans hounded alleged communists and put them on trial. Some went to jail, but all they had done was write or make a movie. A decade later the Democrats helped to bring down segregation.

And without meaning to offend southerners, the south, the last bastion of both slavery and segregation slowly turned from Democrat to Republican.

And I haven't mentioned Richard Nixon yet. The less said the better.

A hundred or so years ago Republicans were the ones with the progressive ideas and the urge to fight oppression. Now I think that Abraham Lincoln (who was not the party's founder but one of its earliest and certain its greatest member) would be embarassed to be a part of it.

You can read all this and more on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Republican_Party

[BrendaQG]

1.) Religion is not "child abuse". The closed minded society in the secnario in the original post was doing the abusing. Otherwise the answer is that for a family or minority group to try and preserve it's identity they must abuse their kids by not conforming to the majority. That and religion does more harm than good because fear of hell keeps more people in line than the laws of man.

2.) Circumcision == supersition.

3.)The US can project more raw millitary force onto any other country than any other country or group of countries (ie the EU). But we cannot anihillate the Taliban who actually control most of Afganistan and our arch enemy is a mere terrorist organizeation. :-? Hmm...basically we are the sole surviving superpower because no one else has the navy and airforces to challenge us, or threaten our homeland.

I'm surprised you don't know them, TFan.

Oh I know them. I'm more curious about what you think is reality. The premise of the Republican party has remained the same. Free citizens, good education, free industry. The republican party is the party of Lincoln. We still hold these same values.


If you did, you would know that initially the Republicans were the party that embraced more liberal values and that over time the so called "GOP" has strayed from its priorities- it's values now are more conservative and its actions are far less progressive.

You're right. The party is less progressive than it was 150 years ago.

Because everything has limits.

The Republican party still maintains the same values it did 150 years ago. Free people, free industry and education. What you call progressive is actually a perversion of the word. Truly free men do not need affirmative action, EEOC, hate-crime bullshit or welfare. They do not need reparations. Your use of the word "Progressive" is a farce. Free men need only the US constitution in it's current form. Not the subjugation of the "new progressive".

Equal protection under the law.


This has been happening for a century but really took of after the war when the Democrats were seen as the more progressive party. In the 1970s and 1980s the Republicans emerged as a truly conservative party.

During the 1940s and 1950s the Republicans hounded alleged communists and put them on trial. Some went to jail, but all they had done was write or make a movie. A decade later the Democrats helped to bring down segregation.

And without meaning to offend southerners, the south, the last bastion of both slavery and segregation slowly turned from Democrat to Republican.

And I haven't mentioned Richard Nixon yet. The less said the better.

A hundred or so years ago Republicans were the ones with the progressive ideas and the urge to fight oppression. Now I think that Abraham Lincoln (who was not the party's founder but one of its earliest and certain its greatest member) would be embarassed to be a part of it.

You can read all this and more on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Republican_Party

Progressiveness, like everything, has it's limits.

"Free people" is progress
Free enterprise is progress
A strong military is progress
Strong laws are progress

Abortion is not progress
Nanny-state-ing is not progress
Wealth transfer schemes are not progress
Affirmative Action is not progress

This is where liberalism is a lie. It's not progress at all.

[GroobySteven]

Why isn't abortion progress?
seanchai

[trish]

One might think it’s also child abuse to indoctrinate a class of children into the conundrums of long division and the labyrinthine mysteries of grammar. But one can understand that parents and society have an interest in teaching children what they need to know to survive and be happy in world. I only bring this up because it contrasts so well with religious and political indoctrination. In the US we teach whole classes of six year olds to pledge their allegiances to the United States of America, children who don’t even know what an “allegiance” is! Does that strike anyone as sick? Children deemed too young to stay home alone, watch unfiltered TV or eat sweets between meals are ushered down the church aisle and required to commit their eternal souls to the god of their parents. These kids think an eternity is the time from one Christmas to another! One would think that a parent who would allow and encourage their child to make that kind of commitment would have no trouble at all allowing their child to commit to marriage, or a lifelong shoulder tattoo, or sex reassignment surgery. Does anybody here, including Tfan, really think that very young children generally are morally and intellectually prepared to make lifetime (or even eternal) commitments?

Does anybody here, including Tfan, really think that very young children generally are morally and intellectually prepared to make lifetime (or even eternal) commitments?

Thanks for asking so nicely.

And the answer is yes. The human soul is prepared and sanctified for such at conception.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."- Jeremiah 1:5

And I'd like to ask.

When are the children "ready"?

following in tfans lovely hypocritical direction it would only make sense then that:

opposing gay rights is progress

I don't oppose gay rights and neither does the party.

You speak nonsense.


resisting the civil rights movement is progress

The civil rights movement is done, it's over. Abraham Lincoln (R) started it and it's now over.

You speak nonsense.


fighitng to keep minimum wages down is progress

And dictating wages is progress? LMAO No wonder you guys are in love with Ahmadinejad.


not bringing the US up to par with most developed countries in alternative energy sources is progress

That's not the governments job. It is the individuals job and it will happen if there is a demand. It WON'T happen because of government decree.

You really are in love with dictatorships, aren't you? What else should the government force people to do?


the patriot act is progress

Damn straight.


well we can go on, but i think all fair minded people...

Yeah they will. They see a naive poster on hungangels pretty much making it clear that he's in love with dictatorship. That-

The government should determine wages.

The government should determine ecological policy even down to an individuals home.

That the government should require require racial quotas

Sounds, convincingly, like dictatorship to me.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That's all I need!


see whats under his hood...lemme see if i can dig up some gool ole southern strom thurmond speeches to show some more ideas of republican progress...

I believe it was Robert Byrd(D) under the white hood and not Strom Thurmond.

You know? This guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd

Yeah, he's still alive. He's still a racist and he's still double talking.
And he "is poised to return to his position as President pro tempore of the Senate in January 2007"

Yeah that's your guy. I'm gonna break this one out for you-

"with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."- Robert Byrd(D).... KING OF THE DEMOCRATS!

[rico del rio]

In 2nd grade I got a chunk of hair pulled out of my head in Catholic School because I made my G like a 6, and I cried that shit hurt. If that would happen today would it be considered Child Abuse and would the teacher get in trouble ?

Oh by the way after 2nd grade no more Catholic school. Plus I was always scared to go to Church on Sunday, for I thought one of the Nuns or Priest would be the shit out of me. Great System .

In 2nd grade I got a chunk of hair pulled out of my head in Catholic School because I made my G like a 6, and I cried that shit hurt. If that would happen today would it be considered Child Abuse and would the teacher get in trouble ?

Oh by the way after 2nd grade no more Catholic school. Plus I was always scared to go to Church on Sunday, for I thought one of the Nuns or Priest would be the shit out of me. Great System .

Should have gone to the cops and had those fuckers arrested, or your parents should have. They should have protected you.

[rico del rio]

Parents ? My old man would be the fuck out of me most nights because he was nuts. So until I turned 14 I realized how come my friends pops don't throw them beatens. My mom was clueless and thought I was probably being a bad boy.After :? all Nuns were Angels sent from God.

Wow what a fuckin childhood that just brought back bad memories. And to think I have never been hospitalized for insanity :o

[rico del rio]

J

Awesome post you hit that right on the nail. Thanks.

are u gonna deny that the republican party has at the very least not made an effort to ammend centuries of discrimination against gay people? are u gonna try and play the symantics game and say that republicans have no problem with gays having rights so long as they dont use the same terminology and call it a union of sorts? cmon, who u bullshitting, u are well aware that in many jurisdictions a gay partner can still not visit his sick loved one since its not considered family...furthermore, u obviously realize the many legal struggles gay partners have had in estate issues since they were not considered a spouse...oh, and guess where those issues are prominant, yup, thats right, in republican controlled areas...dont even try and pretend the republicans give 2 shits about gay rights...fuckin phoney...

No one has to sell facts. There may be few conservatives pushing for such amendment, but the fact that the amendment hasn't passed despite the fact that Republicans have held control over Congress for 12 straight years says a lot about our values. We have simply refused that kind of bigotry. No need to sell the fact.


and the civil rights movement is done for a racist like u who wishes to just stop hearing about past problems and unfairness in society...it isnt over for black people and all fair minded people...ME, a fuckin rich jewish white guy knows and admits that a black guy has no fuckin chance to get a top level position in most law firms, banks, or corporations in general...stop fuckin around...johnny cochran is an anomoly...and u know it..u know that the civil rights movement is not even close to over...it will be over when there will be a true level playing field...if u invite a bunch of guys to play poker and everyone gets the same number of chips, but u and a few friends cheat and screw over some friends and it costs them half the chips

You're projecting your poor character and lack of values onto me and society at large. Maybe you're from a bad family?

Me? I'll take your poker chips because I recognize fish when I see it. Just like when Republicans put a "Withdraw from Iraq" bill up for a vote.

We call your bluff on Capitol Hill and we'll take your chips at the table, too, Donk.

And don't give me that typical condescending bullshit of "A Rich Jewish White guy" bullshit. That's your fucking problem. You think you're a god damn savior. There was a guy named Frederick Douglass. Turns out he was an abolitionist. He was black and he was a slave.

Once upon a time he ran into this guy named Garrison.... Garrison was a typical Bos-Wash condescending liberal with guess what?

A savior complex.

You'd make Frederick Douglass vomit with your "Rich jewish guy here to save the blacks" bullshit.

Your infamous quote will live on as testament to your tacit bigotry.
ME, a fuckin rich jewish white guy knows and admits that a black guy has no fuckin chance to get a top level position in most law firms


Frederick Douglass says, in response to that kind of tacit bigotry-
In regard to the colored people, there is always more that is benevolent, I perceive, than just, manifested towards us. What I ask for the negro is not benevolence, not pity, not sympathy, but simply justice. The American people have always been anxious to know what they shall do with us... . I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us.
-Frederick Douglass

What Douglass was saying is "Get off my jock you condescending liberal bitch! Stop fucking me up with housing projects and welfare!"

LMAO. Your bigotry is the worst kind. Tacit bigotry!

[ezed]

Christianity formed the foundation on which America has become the worlds only Superpower and largest humanitarian contributor.

You got to be kidding. Dollars and the expansion & preservation of wealth were the foundation on which America became the worlds only Superpower in this period of history. Remember, Rome, Spain and England all had their place as former superpower status.

It's easy to be labeled the Largest humanitarian contributor when you have the most bucks. Besides we have to keep our overseas consumers alive.


It has brought not only real global leadership, but a STRONG and FAIR one at that

Nothing like stroking your own dick and cooing "I'm a good boy aren't I?" in your daily affirmation.

you should really get a position with fox news...with each post u get less specific and delve more into parables and such...i never discussed the marriage amendmant, and u know it...i was refering to the passage of certain legislative measures to ensure rights for gay partners and u know it..u also know that republicans have been against making sexual orientation a hate crime class..but this routine is becoming a pain..u know all this, ur jig is up...ur whole shpiel on chips and fish is goin nowhere and ur lil routine on rich fuckin jews is tiring...blah blah


Whatever. You're a condescending, tacit racist and you don't even know it. You must have gone to the "William Lloyd Garrison School of Tacit Racism"... I mean, you're really good at it and good at hiding it from yourself.

Nothing like stroking your own dick and cooing "I'm a good boy aren't I?" in your daily affirmation.


Hellz yeah. America rulez and get a brain morans!

America is the greatest country the world has ever seen.

[GroobySteven]

Nothing like stroking your own dick and cooing "I'm a good boy aren't I?" in your daily affirmation.


Hellz yeah. America rulez and get a brain morans!

America is the greatest country the world has ever seen.


Hahahahahahahahahaha
just keeps getting better.
Moron was invented for you.

Gosh - I've changed my mind. Don't give him a passport keep him where he is.
Hahahahahaha

seanchai

[AllanahStarrNYC]

Ok god he is still here- I have to take care of this isuse ASAP

Threats and insults is all you guys can come up with?

Your positions are truly weak.

[GroobySteven]

Threats and insults is all you guys can come up with?

Your positions are truly weak.

Your right - there is nothing I can say to you - no argument I want to make with you. It's like a SNL sketch - it beggar's belief that anyone can be so ignorant in reality and so small minded.

Thanks for truly making my day - and for giving me good stories around the dinner table about how despite so many people trying otherwise, the stereotype of the bigoted, religiously motivated, world domineering, JW Pepper-like is alive and well, and called Tfan We thought it was a joke.

seanchai

Ok, seanchai. So far you've added that I'm a "bigot" and "small minded". Ok, outside plays from the "Liberal Book of Arrogance and Insults", what else have you added to this thread?

Seriously. All you've done is cast the usual aspersions of "If you disagree with us it's because you're uneducated". Is that the best you're gonna do on this one? Because if it is it only proves my point that your position is truly weak.

[GroobySteven]

Ok, seanchai. So far you've added that I'm a "bigot" and "small minded". Ok, outside plays from the "Liberal Book of Arrogance and Insults", what else have you added to this thread?

Seriously. All you've done is cast the usual aspersions of "If you disagree with us it's because you're uneducated". Is that the best you're gonna do on this one? Because if it is it only proves my point that your position is truly weak.

My point is incredibly strong - your hilarious and that's the only point I have to make.
You stated abortion wasn't progressive??? What else can I say!

You have made all my points for me - your a walking joke. Obviously your not un-educated - but ignorant and blind. Oh man, your great - everyone should get one of you.

I really haven't seen any "point" that you made anywhere though? Just spouting junk?
seanchai

to the mods, i think its unfair to allow a racist pig like tfuck to take one sentence said in an effort to indicate the plight of african americans and allow it to be used out of context in a signature...if ur gonna enforce limitations on copyrighted material, i believe same should be done for libel...

Libel? LMAO.

Let's get this out right here. You're not only a tacit racist as indicated within this thread and in my signature, you also have a history of defending CHILD-RAPERS

As seen here-
http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=6621

So tell me, what does a "RICH JEWISH WHITE GUY" have to gain by throwing in with rapist pedophiles?

A rich jewish white guy advocating FOR intellectual property rights and arguing AGAINST the rights of KIDS who were RAPED!

Now I know HOW you're rich! No values. No ethics.

anyhoo, im drunk

Now it all makes sense.

[blckhaze]

I feel its a double egde sword. religon definitely, especially nowaday, divides more than it unites, mainly because each is taught as the one and only option for "the" question. my parent are devout christians, but told me that i have to choose my own path. Forcing me into something as serious and life determing as religon will do more harm than good.

[Dasnasdi]

J, you offered a bizarre scenario of Christian parents raising a child as a Muslim in the Bible Belt. How about some examples of how actual Christian practices are detrimental to children?

I don't see it.

The kid in a religious family spends an hour in Sunday School, coloring in a picture of Jesus. The other 167 hours of the week, his life is indistinguishable from other children. He watches the same TV shows, plays the same games, and gets into the same kinds of mischief.

I think it is ridiculous the way so many people, both secular and religious, have an “us against them” attitude. In reality, their lifestyles and mindsets are not significantly different.

[Darkwing Duck]

Please, don't blame the actions of ignorant fallible men on religion. It's no different than right-wingers blaming homosexuals for the AIDS epidemic.

Religion of itself is not a bad thing. Men twisting its message to fit their agendas is.

[mrironknee]

I’ve got to chime in here. The tactics taken and arguments utilized to counter TFan are mostly ineffective simply because, as are most conservative republicans, his diatribe is 90% correct. That percentage would be even higher if they did not attempt to use the Bible as a fact and guidance source. Unfortunately, 10% that is not based on fact is mixed in with the facts cleverly enough to create a very effective argument. That, mixed with their ability to dodge and redirect the argument away from those important clarifications, makes it difficult to debate. Here are some examples:

The Republican Party is for freedom. Free citizens, good education, free industry.
Unfortunately, this is not 100% available to all citizens, especially a good education, which with the right amount of money can be bought. Money also controls industry, as the richest get richer and with their money they can manipulate industry and regulation and tax benefits to create an environment that makes it almost impossible to compete.

I don’t believe republicans in general are racists, they are elitists. I also don’t believe in affirmative action or reparations, because I agree that those, along with a good portion of welfare, do not encourage people to work hard to make something of themselves. That said, the richest people have an interest in keeping the poor down simply because it benefits their bottom line. If everyone was an entrepreneur, who would work for low wages to manufacture, sell, deliver and service what these “entrepreneurs” are getting rich on? It’s a simple matter of class struggle. Every penny more the worker makes is a penny less the owner makes.

As far as progressives, how can progress ever be a bad thing? Abortion is a moral choice. Religion is a choice. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say you are for less government because you don’t want industry regulations and social programs to cut profits and create taxes, but you want to regulate morality and control scientific advancement. You are right, progressiveness has its limits. So does free enterprise.

And finally, you are right again to say that this country was founded on Christian ideals that helped to create the greatest country in the world. Keep also in mind that those same founders knew that these Christian ideals could just as well have been Hindu ideals, or Muslim ideals, and that’s why they insisted on freedom of religion and a separation of church and state.

Oh, and by the way, don’t quote the Bible as reference material. It may have social and moral applications, but even then you have to sort through the fable telling to get to anything with substance. Teaching the bible, or any religion, to children usually only makes it less likely that they will look at things with an open mind when they get older. You are a perfect example. Unless, of course, you are simply using it like other conservatives to control the weak minded and are not a true believer.

[Darkwing Duck]

mrironknee - great post.

J - again, all you can do is cite examples of men misinterpreting scripture as justification for morally dispicable acts. Show me some passages where Jesus specifically tells people to bomb abortion clinics or Mohammad urges his followers to hijack planes.

[TheBigTreesy]

what if a parent believes in punching their kids...why does belief suddenly make a behavior ok? and if so, whats the line?

I'm pretty certain that would be well over the line




what if a parent believed a kid needs to wear 9 coats in the summer because of a certain religious behavior the parent interprets? surely that would constitute child abuse for many people?

Yes, of course it would. Thankfully no religion does require children to wear 9 coats in summer!?


is there not a delicious slippery slope here?

Yes


and even if theres a defense that u believe in the religion, isnt that like having an insanity defense,

No. It is absolutely nothing like an insanity defence. Check the M'Naughton rules.


and saying well i really believed in such and such and thus i shouldnt be punished for torturing my kids...think about it...what limitations are there on parental lunacy so long that the parents believe in it?

Limitations, let me see... the law?



what if a parent is a pagan, believing in many gods, and they make the kids pray 1,000 times a day, to the carpet god, the lawn god, the school god, the pizza god, the lego god, etc. etc. seriously, u dont think its child abuse? wow...u know i recall hearing this bit from david cross, and while i always found it funny, now i find it kinda sad:

i think im gonna raise my kids to be amish...and i know the day will come when theylle ask me "mmm, daddy, how come u get to watch tv and everything and we have candles and are in the dark and get no tv" and ill say to them, well sweetie, thats easy, thats because ur amish, daddy isnt, and amish people dont watch tv or use electricity, daddy doesnt believe in that, u believe in it, now get to bed sweetie so u can wake up early and churn daddy breakfast;)

That is funny, but not half as funny as reading this shambles of a thesis.

[TheBigTreesy]

And Seanchai


Why are you so determined to start an abortion debate?

That is one hell of a messy question with no black and white answers just grey areas.

Stay away, it will only end in tears.

[GroobySteven]

And Seanchai


Why are you so determined to start an abortion debate?

That is one hell of a messy question with no black and white answers just grey areas.

Stay away, it will only end in tears.


I'm not - but when somebody states "abortion isn't progressive" I want to know why. Especially when the same individual also claims to be against social welfare?
The US is the only so-called civilised country which has this issue. In the rest of the Western world, it's a non-issue.
seanchai

The Republican Party is for freedom. Free citizens, good education, free industry.
Unfortunately, this is not 100% available to all citizens, especially a good education, which with the right amount of money can be bought. Money also controls industry, as the richest get richer and with their money they can manipulate industry and regulation and tax benefits to create an environment that makes it almost impossible to compete.

That's what the socialist want you to believe. They want you to believe that power and education rests solely in the hands of "the rich". It's what they do. It's how they operate it. In Venezuala the people bought into that and the government went in and stole private property from private citizens.

They want you to believe the lie so that you'll give them the power to take property and rights. It's what they do. Steal property and rights and with them, hope and dignity.

I believe that school makes complete fools of our young men, because they see and hear nothing of ordinary life there. -Petronius

Life is the real education. Skills and trade are also important, but what are those skills worth without ethics and values? What are they worth without Hustle or Experience? Skills and trade can be mentored by a parent or mastercraftsmen. It can be learned through books and application. There are ways. All you need is the will!

The mentality of "I can't afford school because I'm poor" is what keeps people poor. It's what makes drug addicts and alcoholics when a young man sees no way out of his entry-level job except for lighting up or boozing. He has no way out, not because he's poor but because he believes he has no way out. It isn't true until you believe it.

"As a man believes in his heart, so is he"- Proverbs.

You have the power.


I don’t believe republicans in general are racists, they are elitists. I also don’t believe in affirmative action or reparations, because I agree that those, along with a good portion of welfare, do not encourage people to work hard to make something of themselves. That said, the richest people have an interest in keeping the poor down simply because it benefits their bottom line. If everyone was an entrepreneur, who would work for low wages to manufacture, sell, deliver and service what these “entrepreneurs” are getting rich on? It’s a simple matter of class struggle. Every penny more the worker makes is a penny less the owner makes.

Not true. One thing is true though. There will always be rich people and poor people. ALWAYS. No matter what laws you right or however you can micro-legislate. It's only an economic manifestion of survival of the fittest.

There will always be competition for resources, but to say the rich have an interests in keeping "the poor down" is false. The rich have an interest in keeping rich.... and that's exactly why they are rich. They know how and what to do to get it and keep it. While the poor blame "The man" and take no action to improve their own lives, the rich work on their riches.


As far as progressives, how can progress ever be a bad thing? Abortion is a moral choice.

Abortion is murder, plain and simple. It does have tremendous moral implications but murder trumps whatever psychology you can through at it.


Religion is a choice. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say you are for less government because you don’t want industry regulations and social programs to cut profits and create taxes, but you want to regulate morality and control scientific advancement.

I don't see Christians out in taliban gear wacking women in the head for dressing provacatively. Christians wrote the very laws that allow for the very freedoms you enjoy. From pornography to rock concerts.

There are no forced conversions to Christianity. We worked that shit out centuries ago. Muslims are still doing it, though.

Christians wrote the constitution and the bill of rights, both of which strictly forbid religious restriction of behavior.


You are right, progressiveness has its limits. So does free enterprise.

Enterprise has no limits in a moral and just society.


And finally, you are right again to say that this country was founded on Christian ideals that helped to create the greatest country in the world. Keep also in mind that those same founders knew that these Christian ideals could just as well have been Hindu ideals, or Muslim ideals

That's why Muslim women in Middle eastern countries have so many rights, right?


and that’s why they insisted on freedom of religion and a separation of church and state.

They did not insist on "separation of church and state". That's a phrase coined in the 20th century by a bigoted and anti-semitic supreme court justice.

"Separation of Church and State" is not mentioned once in the constitution. Not ONCE.


Oh, and by the way, don’t quote the Bible as reference material. It may have social and moral applications, but even then you have to sort through the fable telling to get to anything with substance. Teaching the bible, or any religion, to children usually only makes it less likely that they will look at things with an open mind when they get older. You are a perfect example. Unless, of course, you are simply using it like other conservatives to control the weak minded and are not a true believer.

Listen. You're the one who's allowed yourself to believe the liberal lies. That the individual is relatively powerless and at the mercy of the rich. I'm telling you. The minute you believe you are powerless in this country, is the minute you are.... and that's when they come after your rights and property. Just like in Russia, Venezuela and China. They believed the lie.

I'm not calling you weak-minded. But at least consider the possibility that you are very powerful in determining your destiny. The constitution guarantees it.

[AllanahStarrNYC]

JUST IN!


Here is a picture of TFan anf his homosexual lover relaxing in their pool after they re-enacted the 'squeeeeeeeeeeal like a pig' from Deliverence on some poor tourist in the woods.

They are taking a break before a big night out of beer drinking and cow tipping.

Now that you have been outed TFan- I hope that you will indeed support gay marrige.

PS. Loooooooooooove the lawn chairs! So chic!

[Felicia Katt]

They did not insist on "separation of church and state". That's a phrase coined in the 20th century by a bigoted and anti-semitic supreme court justice. "Separation of Church and State" is not mentioned once in the constitution. Not ONCE.

I'm not calling you weak-minded. But at least consider the possibility that you are very powerful in determining your destiny. The constitution guarantees it.
Minds are like bars at weddings. They are best when they are open.

While its true the actual phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution, the concept of it was frequently used by its authors. Thomas Jefferson quoting the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, wrote: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

James Madison, the principal drafter of the Bill of Rights, wrote of "total separation of the church from the state". He also wrote "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States," Madison also wrote, and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States" That the purpose of the establishment clauses was to keep religion and government separate is very well set forth in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, which was originally authored by Thomas Jefferson, ansd served as one of Madison's inspirations for the Bill of Rights. It declares that no one may be compelled to finance any religion or denomination as follows:

"no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

so, while that particular phrase is not in the Constitution, the original intention of the words actually used to separate Church and State can easily be gleaned. Keep this in mind too. Neither the word Jesus nor the word God is found in Constitution itself. Christianity is not mentioned anywhere in it, and proposals to do so were defeated at the Constitutional Conventions.

Since you are so big on the Christian Bible, you really should heed the words of your savior. Thats right, Jesus Christ is sometimes considered the inventor of the separation of church and state. His advice to his followers was "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew 22:21)


FK

[Felicia Katt]

I don't oppose gay rights and neither does the party.

You speak nonsense.
The following are actual exerpts from the most recent Republican Party Platforms:

Republicans favor aggressive, proactive measures to ensure that no individual is discriminated against on the basis of race, national origin, gender, or other characteristics covered by our civil rights laws
(notice that sexual orientation is omitted)

We strongly support a Constitutional amendment that fully protects marriage, and we [oppose] forcing states to recognize other living arrangements as equivalent to marriage. The well-being of children is best accomplished [when] nurtured by their mother & father anchored by the bonds of marriage. We believe that legal recognition and the accompanying benefits afforded couples should be preserved for that unique and special union of one man and one woman which has historically been called marriage.

President Bush will also vigorously defend the Defense of Marriage Act, which was supported by both parties and passed by 85 votes in the Senate. This common sense law reaffirms the right of states not to recognize same-sex marriages licensed in other states
(This invalidates just for homosexuals the long established, well founded principal expressly set forth in the Constitution at Article IV Section 1. Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state.)

We affirm traditional military culture, and we affirm that homosexuality is incompatible with military service.

We support the traditional definition of “marriage” as the legal union of one man and one woman, and we believe that federal judges and bureaucrats should not force states to recognize other living arrangements as marriages. We do not believe sexual preference should be given special legal protection or standing in law.

Bush is a Texas Republican so the Texas Republican Party Platform can be read as a blueprint for his administration's policies. The following are actual excerpts from it.

“The Party supports the traditional definition of marriage as a God-ordained, legal and moral commitment only between a natural man and a natural woman, which is the foundational unit of a healthy society, and the Party opposes the assault on marriage by judicial activists. We call on the President, Congress, and the Texas Legislature to take immediate action to defend the sanctity of traditional marriage. We urge Congress to exercise authority under the United States Constitution, and pass legislation withholding jurisdiction from the Federal Courts in cases involving family law, especially any changes in the traditional definition of marriage. We further call on Congress to pass and the state legislatures to ratify a marriage amendment declaring that marriage in the United States shall consist and be recognized only as the union of a natural man and a natural woman. Neither the United States nor any state shall recognize or grant to any unmarried person the legal rights or status of a spouse. We oppose the recognition of and granting of benefits to people who represent themselves as domestic partners without being legally married. Texas families will be stronger because of the passage by Governor Perry and the 78th Texas Legislature of the ‘Defense of Marriage Act’, which denies recognition by Texas of homosexual ‘unions’ legitimized by other states or nations. ”

“The Party believes that the practice of sodomy tears at the fabric of society, contributes to the breakdown of the family unit, and leads to the spread of dangerous, communicable diseases. Homosexual behavior is contrary to the fundamental, unchanging truths that have been ordained by God, recognized by our country’s founders, and shared by the majority of Texans. Homosexuality must not be presented as an acceptable ‘alternative’ lifestyle in our public education and policy, nor should ‘family’ be redefined to include homosexual ‘couples.’ We are opposed to any granting of special legal entitlements, recognition, or privileges including, but not limited to, marriage between persons of the same sex, custody of children by homosexuals, homosexual partner insurance or retirement benefits. We oppose any criminal or civil penalties against those who oppose homosexuality out of faith, conviction, or belief in traditional values.”

“The Party opposes the legalization of sodomy. The Party demands Congress exercise its authority granted by the U.S. Constitution to withhold jurisdiction from the federal courts from cases involving sodomy.”

“We oppose mandatory open adoption and adoption of children by homosexuals.”

We oppose programs that advocate or legitimize pre-marital sexual activity, advocate condoms and birth control use by unmarried minors, advocate abortions, and condone homosexual, bisexual, and transgender acts and/or lifestyles, and elevate minors’ rights to make sexual and health care decisions equivalent to their parents.”

“The Party supports amendment of the Americans with Disabilities Act to exclude from its definition those persons with infectious diseases, substance addiction, learning disabilities, behavior disorders, homosexual practices and mental stress, thereby reducing abuse of the Act.”

Nonsense is being spoken, but its by Republicans or those who support them in ignorance of their stated principles.

FK

[TheBigTreesy]

And Seanchai


Why are you so determined to start an abortion debate?

That is one hell of a messy question with no black and white answers just grey areas.

Stay away, it will only end in tears.


I'm not - but when somebody states "abortion isn't progressive" I want to know why. Especially when the same individual also claims to be against social welfare?
The US is the only so-called civilised country which has this issue. In the rest of the Western world, it's a non-issue.
seanchai


Well speaking from the world's second wealthiest western country (second to Japan that is), trust me, the very mention of abortion here has people frothing at the mouth. We have had three referendums, countless supreme court cases, months and months of debate in the media and the issue is still as clear as mud.

People wil simply have to agree to disagree on this and respect each others positions. Debate on the morals of the subject is unproductive. The challenge of producing a legal remedy acceptable by both sides remains outstanding however.

Minds are like bars at weddings. They are best when they are open.

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you've simply abdicated the responsibility to think." -William F Buckley


While its true the actual phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution, the concept of it was frequently used by its authors. Thomas Jefferson quoting the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, wrote: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

These are intelligent men. I don't put my confidence in what's implied. I put my confidence on what's committed and printed. It is clear the the founders, based on what's committed and printed, wanted NO LAWS with regard to religion. Meaning, if a judge wants to hang the ten commandments in his court room, he should be able to because forcing him to remove it because it's religious is an unconstitutional act.

Besides, the constitution wasn't drafted by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison alone.


so, while that particular phrase is not in the Constitution, the original intention of the words actually used to separate Church and State can easily be gleaned.

These are intelligent men of respect. I'm positive that they would state, in print in the constitution, what their intent was. The words "intent" or "spirit of the law" are usually used by defense attorneys to weasel out of the law when their client is guilty as hell. They're weasel words in this case.

These were men who did not manipulate their words. They said what they meant.

Read this closely. Article 1

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Intent committed and printed.


Keep this in mind too. Neither the word Jesus nor the word God is found in Constitution itself. Christianity is not mentioned anywhere in it, and proposals to do so were defeated at the Constitutional Conventions.

And?


Since you are so big on the Christian Bible, you really should heed the words of your savior. Thats right, Jesus Christ is sometimes considered the inventor of the separation of church and state. His advice to his followers was "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew 22:21)


Caeser's not here. Things which belong to our American government are things which belong to the people. We don't do emperors here, we are the government. Our founders have given US the basic human right of religious freedom AND freedom from religion.

Thanks Felicia. I'm a fan of your work and I hope I didn't come across as rude or abrupt. I appreciate your respectful and intelligent reply.

[GroobySteven]

People wil simply have to agree to disagree on this and respect each others positions. Debate on the morals of the subject is unproductive. The challenge of producing a legal remedy acceptable by both sides remains outstanding however.

I agree and wouldn't that be a beautiful thing. You know as well as I do, it doesn't happen. Laws that would stop abortion being accessable are obstacle but even more so are the droves of anti-abortion nuts standing outside clinics, making death threats, etc. (and on their off-days they go to the prison to support the death penalty :roll: ). People don't agree to disagree.

Presidents can be made on this ONE issue - and that's terrifying.
seanchai

[mrironknee]

Again, very effective arguments, but not 100% valid. Let me interject:


There are ways. All you need is the will!
The mentality of "I can't afford school because I'm poor" is what keeps people poor. It's what makes drug addicts and alcoholics when a young man sees no way out of his entry-level job except for lighting up or boozing. He has no way out, not because he's poor but because he believes he has no way out. It isn't true until you believe it.
"As a man believes in his heart, so is he"- Proverbs.
You have the power.
It's really not that simple. Generations of families in poverty have created a class of people that do not believe in their own ability to escape their social status without trying "easy" ways out (drugs, sports, entertainment, etc.). Just stating that they can if they believe would be like me telling you that if you really tried you could accept the fact that there is no god and only thousands of years of superstition has convinced people otherwise. It obviously goes against generations of inbreeding. All of the information is available, but the options are better for some than others. I never even implied that the options were not there; just that it wasn't as black and white as you suggest.


There will always be competition for resources, but to say the rich have an interests in keeping "the poor down" is false. The rich have an interest in keeping rich.... and that's exactly why they are rich. They know how and what to do to get it and keep it. While the poor blame "The man" and take no action to improve their own lives, the rich work on their riches.
Your statement is an oxymoron. It contradicts itself. Saying that the rich have an interest in keeping rich is agreeing with my statement. You speak only in extremes when it suits you. There are many "poor" people who are taking action to improve their own live, without great success. What benefit is it to the "rich" to help make others rich?


Abortion is murder, plain and simple. It does have tremendous moral implications but murder trumps whatever psychology you can through at it.
That is your opinion, and is widely debated. Don't state it as a fact. Without going in to a long debate about life at conception and a fetus versus a human, just remember people more intelligent than either one of us are on both sides of this issue.


I don't see Christians out in taliban gear wacking women in the head for dressing provacatively. Christians wrote the very laws that allow for the very freedoms you enjoy. From pornography to rock concerts.
There are no forced conversions to Christianity. We worked that shit out centuries ago. Muslims are still doing it, though.
Christians wrote the constitution and the bill of rights, both of which strictly forbid religious restriction of behavior.
You are speaking of radical fundamentalism. This also exists in Christianity to this day. Again, you take the extreme and apply it across the board. Typical debate tactics, but not reality. If you analyze the core of most religions you get a similar theme. And the one thing that holds true for most is they believe that theirs is the only true one.



Enterprise has no limits in a moral and just society.
No society is 100% moral and just. The American society needs checks and balances the same as they all do. It seems to be human nature to look out for yourself. That is the reason the constitution is so great, as they knew the probability of majority rule and allowed for minority representation. The ability of the rich and powerful to control was what brought them to start their own country and create a government ruled by the people.


They did not insist on "separation of church and state". That's a phrase coined in the 20th century by a bigoted and anti-semitic supreme court justice.
"Separation of Church and State" is not mentioned once in the constitution. Not ONCE.
You are speaking semantics. By separation of church and state I refer to the guarantees of no laws requiring or preventing the practice of my religion. Your other post speaks of preventing a judge from hanging the 10 commandments in his courtroom. What you seem to not understand is that the courtroom is not his. It belongs to the government, which is all citizens. His personal beliefs should not be reflected. The act of recognizing one particular religion goes against the spirit of the constitution simply because it infers taking sides. Numerous court rulings have confirmed that.


Listen. You're the one who's allowed yourself to believe the liberal lies. That the individual is relatively powerless and at the mercy of the rich. I'm telling you. The minute you believe you are powerless in this country, is the minute you are.... and that's when they come after your rights and property. Just like in Russia, Venezuela and China. They believed the lie.
I'm not calling you weak-minded. But at least consider the possibility that you are very powerful in determining your destiny. The constitution guarantees it.
If you are speaking specifically of me, I am not really taking a position here. I have not bought in to the complete rhetoric of either party. I am playing devils advocate and trying to convey that your opinions are biased based on your beliefs as much as the facts. This applies to most people. I myself am a fairly successful person, and take advantage of some of the things I believe may be hurting others. At least I can admit that. I don't need someone to spout propaganda to rationalize my actions and make me feel better about myself. I try and see things how they are. I also do not accept things on face value or even historical acceptance.
I will end my participation in this debate here. I actually enjoy the process, and appreciate your ability to challenge my intellect. I also accept your right to believe as you see fit, as I do all people, insofar as it does not restrict my own freedom.

[TheOne1]

i only read the title and first message... so my message will be based off of that.

anything could really be considered child abuse... whatever you "force" upon a child that doesn't know better, religion, or what he does, watches, or if he chooses to wear a dress even if he's your lil boy..

for the religion part...; religions are just an organized cult.. where a lot of child molestation happens, suicide by cool aid (didnt one cult do that?), and mean old ladies that push the cross onto you, then flip you off when u pass them on the road.

now put the two together.... if u want your children molested, and to grow up mean, send him to organized cults or religions..just warn them that the cool aid has a kick to it..


.............sorry, i couldnt read thru all the other messages, that maze is uncomprehendable with a hangover

[chefmike]

JUST IN!


Here is a picture of TFan anf his homosexual lover relaxing in their pool after they re-enacted the 'squeeeeeeeeeeal like a pig' from Deliverence on some poor tourist in the woods.

They are taking a break before a big night out of beer drinking and cow tipping.

Now that you have been outed TFan- I hope that you will indeed support gay marrige.

PS. Loooooooooooove the lawn chairs! So chic!

MORE BREAKING NEWS!

A reliable source(TFools first wife/first cousin) has just informed HA News that not only is this sanctimonious little shit TFool a hypocrite in regards to gay marriage, he is currently married!

No...I'm not talking about first wife/first cousin, she finally caught him cheating on her with his uncle...

She said that she wasn't playing second fiddle to no tractor supply salesman...nosireee...
So it was "fuck you TFool!", and then she drove off with the house! :lol:

Now this certainly wouldn't be the first time some bible-banging butt pirate was caught with his pants down, and his hypocrisy exposed(among other things)...

But cheer up TFool, you are not alone, brave xian soldier...

At the very least the Reverend Ted Haggard feels your pain....

But you know what they say about people who live in glass outhouses... :roll: :lol: 8)

[specialk]

JUST IN!


Here is a picture of TFan anf his homosexual lover relaxing in their pool after they re-enacted the 'squeeeeeeeeeeal like a pig' from Deliverence on some poor tourist in the woods.

They are taking a break before a big night out of beer drinking and cow tipping.

Now that you have been outed TFan- I hope that you will indeed support gay marrige.

PS. Loooooooooooove the lawn chairs! So chic!

ROFLMAO.....GOOD ONE BABY :lol:

[specialk]

JUST IN!


Here is a picture of TFan anf his homosexual lover relaxing in their pool after they re-enacted the 'squeeeeeeeeeeal like a pig' from Deliverence on some poor tourist in the woods.

They are taking a break before a big night out of beer drinking and cow tipping.

Now that you have been outed TFan- I hope that you will indeed support gay marrige.

PS. Loooooooooooove the lawn chairs! So chic!

MORE BREAKING NEWS!

A reliable source(TFools first wife/first cousin) has just informed HA News that not only is this sanctimonious little shit TFool a hypocrite in regards to gay marriage, he is currently married!

No...I'm not talking about first wife/first cousin, she finally caught him cheating on her with his uncle...

She said that she wasn't playing second fiddle to no tractor supply salesman...nosireee...
So it was "fuck you TFool!", and then she drove off with the house! :lol:

Now this certainly wouldn't be the first time some bible-banging butt pirate was caught with his pants down, and his hypocrisy exposed(among other things)...

But cheer up TFool, you are not alone, brave xian soldier...

At the very least the Reverend Ted Haggard feels your pain....

But you know what they say about people who live in glass outhouses... :roll: :lol: 8)

PRICELESS CHEF, LMAO :lol:

[specialk]

They did not insist on "separation of church and state". That's a phrase coined in the 20th century by a bigoted and anti-semitic supreme court justice. "Separation of Church and State" is not mentioned once in the constitution. Not ONCE.

I'm not calling you weak-minded. But at least consider the possibility that you are very powerful in determining your destiny. The constitution guarantees it.
Minds are like bars at weddings. They are best when they are open.

While its true the actual phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution, the concept of it was frequently used by its authors. Thomas Jefferson quoting the First Amendment of the United States Constitution, wrote: "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

James Madison, the principal drafter of the Bill of Rights, wrote of "total separation of the church from the state". He also wrote "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States," Madison also wrote, and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States" That the purpose of the establishment clauses was to keep religion and government separate is very well set forth in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, which was originally authored by Thomas Jefferson, ansd served as one of Madison's inspirations for the Bill of Rights. It declares that no one may be compelled to finance any religion or denomination as follows:

"no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

so, while that particular phrase is not in the Constitution, the original intention of the words actually used to separate Church and State can easily be gleaned. Keep this in mind too. Neither the word Jesus nor the word God is found in Constitution itself. Christianity is not mentioned anywhere in it, and proposals to do so were defeated at the Constitutional Conventions.

Since you are so big on the Christian Bible, you really should heed the words of your savior. Thats right, Jesus Christ is sometimes considered the inventor of the separation of church and state. His advice to his followers was "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew 22:21)


FK

NICE TO SEE YOU BACK FELICIA!!!!....KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK :wink:

[AllanahStarrNYC]

JUST IN!


Here is a picture of TFan anf his homosexual lover relaxing in their pool after they re-enacted the 'squeeeeeeeeeeal like a pig' from Deliverence on some poor tourist in the woods.

They are taking a break before a big night out of beer drinking and cow tipping.

Now that you have been outed TFan- I hope that you will indeed support gay marrige.

PS. Loooooooooooove the lawn chairs! So chic!

MORE BREAKING NEWS!

A reliable source(TFools first wife/first cousin) has just informed HA News that not only is this sanctimonious little shit TFool a hypocrite in regards to gay marriage, he is currently married!

No...I'm not talking about first wife/first cousin, she finally caught him cheating on her with his uncle...

She said that she wasn't playing second fiddle to no tractor supply salesman...nosireee...
So it was "fuck you TFool!", and then she drove off with the house! :lol:

Now this certainly wouldn't be the first time some bible-banging butt pirate was caught with his pants down, and his hypocrisy exposed(among other things)...

But cheer up TFool, you are not alone, brave xian soldier...

At the very least the Reverend Ted Haggard feels your pain....

But you know what they say about people who live in glass outhouses... :roll: :lol: 8)

More breaking NEWS!

The training camp located where TFans location, as stated by his Location on his old profile -WHERE WE KICK TERRORIST ASS- has been uncovered in East Texas in an isolated bunker where a mass arsenal of weapons, beer, and sheep (seems no women are around) were kept.

I believe T Fan is not in the pic but that is his gay lover in the front right.

[ezed]

Why are we arguing religion. Religion is man made, with the tenants of each crafted by man (a man) in his or his benefactors own best interest.

The human race is still retarded not to see this. Christ wrote nothing! He preached. People claim to have recorded his words in the new testament. Most times when they heard them they were drunk (Jesus was always turning water to wine...to keep his audience)! And the persons who recorded what those people related they heard (Matthew,Mark,Luke and John), were the politicaly correct editors of their time.

The same applies to the old testament, what happened more or less happened but was enhanced by the writers. And the Moslems, came about when the arabs were snubbed by the jews (they controlled the media even back then) and proceeded to write their own version to protect their lifestyle.

And all the masses and the powerfull latched on to it (them) because they wanted a set of directions of what is right and wrong (thus the birth of lawyers). They couldn't grasp the simple concept of do unto others.....

FOR CHRISTSAKE, JUST BE GOOD. YOU KNOW WHAT IT MEANS BUT IT'S NOT EASY, IS IT. IT'S TOUGH LIKE IT IS FOR AN OBESE PERSON TO PASS BY THE AROMA OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD MCDONALDS.

For God sake, use the gifts GOD gave you (your mind)! Look up in the sky, see the stars, they are mostly suns like ours. God knows what revolves around them. He made all this and let's it run like a train set.

Who the fuck knows what's beyond the limits of our primative technology. You also place to much creedance in our scientists, thousands of years from now they'll be portrayed like "Theodoric the Barber of York" on the Saturday nite live skit.

Stop the fucking religious bullshit! You all know deep down inside that what you do is right or wrong. You don't need a set of instructions (religion). You were born with it.

The Human race on Earth at this point in time is still retarded. We got a long way to go. And we delude ourselves when we do something we know is wrong by blaming it on some external force. We make the call, not them or HIM/HER/IT (IT meaning God you nitpicking angry typing guys and gurls).

Hey, use what you got! And don't ask GOD to effect the outcome of a sporting event. He say, "Man, they just don't get it, ....but give them time and a few more catastrophe's and they'll be running like one of my solar systems. :roll:

[Vicki Richter]

I think religion is great. A parent has every right to enforce their values on their kids. I've seen both liberals and right wingers dressing their kids in cloths that should be criminal. Allowing your genetic male child to goto school in a dress is going to get that kid beat. It is the parents job to protect their children and keep them out of harms way. If a parent allows their child to make adult decisions at a very young age that will cause them harm, that is wrong.

I think Jesus taught things like turn the other cheek, let the person who has not sinned cast the first stone, etc. These are important lessons or parables for young children. I think we are missing traditionalist values where parents can spank their kids as a form of discipline without getting them taken away.

However, yes it should be a crime to raise your children to be Muslim. I don't think that is a very good, forgiving religion.

[TheOne1]

However, yes it should be a crime to raise your children to be Muslim. I don't think that is a very good, forgiving religion.



as opposed to sending them to be altar boys hand having a 20%chance to get molested by a priest...and having the pope do nothing about it..oyeah, no jail time for the priest either
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d45/bigazhell1/Holy_Order_Priest_Religious_Life.jpg

[hondarobot]

[quote="Vicki Richter"]Allowing your genetic male child to goto school in a dress is going to get that kid beat.[quote]

Nonsense. I once showed up for class in grade school wearing a dress and sunglasses, I never got beat up in my life. In fact, I've always been rather popular.

That's a true story, by the way, and no, I do not cross dress or sit down when I pee.

:P

[TheOne1]

[quote=Vicki Richter]
That's a true story, by the way, and no, I do not cross dress or sit down when I pee.

:P

i sit down when i pee.... because im too lazy to stand, and too lazy to aim

[hondarobot]

[quote=Vicki Richter]
That's a true story, by the way, and no, I do not cross dress or sit down when I pee.

:P

i sit down when i pee.... because im too lazy to stand, and too lazy to aim

Well, fair enough. I do remember numerous times, swaying back in forth in a bathroom watching the wall paper turn into heiroglyphics and thinking to myself:

"I should probably sit down. . ."

So yes, I have also sat to pee on occasion.

So there.

[TheOne1]

bro..i was only kiddin about the peeing sittin down part....
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d45/bigazhell1/nelson-haha.gif

[hondarobot]

bro..i was only kiddin about the peeing sittin down part....
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d45/bigazhell1/nelson-haha.gif

heh. No offense taken. I honestly did go to school wearing a dress once, and I have on occasion sat down to pee. I use to have waaaaay too much chemical fun.

Everyone is taking everything so damn seriously lately, it's just weird. My crazy stories are pretty weird themself, but 100% true, and I've never meant to offend anyone here (unless I was fighting trolls).

So Lets All Calm Down and just have fun again.

Oh, and J, you have been thread jacked. Bam :!:

8)

im just curious if you know anything about islam other than what the sensationalizing media offers...not that im a big islam fan, but its hilarious when after centuries of the crusades

Stop right there. LMAO. I'm beginning to think that you're playing stupid on purpose.

The first crusade saw Christians coming to beat down on the Muslims for stealing Jerusalem under Caliph al-Khattab. It was Islam, in 638 that came into Jerusalem in the name of "Allah". Judaism existed LONG before Muhammed was even born... and it existed in ISRAEL. Muhammed went around town claiming to be a prophet, the Jews said "Get your bitch ass out of here".

So Muhammed went into ancient Arabia and began conscripting retards. Muhammed's own tribe told him stop preaching that nonsense because you're making yourself and us look stupid. Muhammed refused, his tribe kicked his ass out. Muhammed went then to Egypt/Ethiopia where a King Al-Negashi, A CHRISTIAN, gave him asylum.

The Jews in the region refused to live in what would have been the "First Islamic State", with guess who as King and prophet? "Muhammed" .... which meant they didn't accept the Islamic version of God. Muhammed got Butthurt and riled up his band of retards to conquer Medina and then Jerusalem. They also stopped praying toward Jerusalem and now to Mecca.

The first crusade was to RECAPTURE Jerusalem.

Why all this? Because the Jews, mainly, refused Muhammed as King or prophet... for no other reason than "Leave us alone to practice our faith". Muhammed said the liberal thing to say, "That's racist!"

The crusades were all necessary. From Jerusalem to Richard "I dare you to touch my cross, bitch" Lionheart. From Muhammed to El Cid.


now theyre the moderates...


Damn straight! We've done all the killing we've done. Christianity and Judaism created the west. We've taught "turn the other cheek" and "love thy enemy" before it was written into any western law or doctrine.

While Islam is still forcing women into headscarves, practicing forced conversions and getting butthurt over cartoons, it is the Judeo-Christian west that has advanced society forward and into flight, space, internet, medicine and art. Look at what our system produces and look at what there's produces. The west is the righteous.

You have the right to speak in Judeo-Christian society. You have the right to curse god, curse political leaders, curse your mom and dad, curse the bible, koran and torah..... not only without facing death, but also without facing economic sanction and health. They don't do that in Iran.

If you were in Iran, right now, speaking against political/religious leaders, muhammed or the koran you'd be branded "Dhimmi" and taxed all to hell and face being ostracized for falling out of line with guess what? The Islamic "Community" (theres that word again)

Our way is better.

[BrendaQG]

first of all Mohammed started his ministy in Arabia.

Second of all the Romans had driven the jews out of Judea LONG before the muslims came. They also built a church where the Temple had been, after they built a pagan temple there.

Third for most of the last two millennia Jews were SAFER in the Islamic world than in europe, and that will become true again as soon as the Palestinian issue is settled.

Fourth actually read the effing Qu'an and Hadiths to find out about the religion.

last I am gland you looked up which Kalifah captured Jerusalem. But saddened that you portrayed the province as having been populated by jews Immediately before then. Goo ol roman white people are the ones that scattered the Jews. Not the Arabs.

first of all Mohammed started his ministy in Arabia.

To sleepy to dispute the socialist lies of Islam. Mohammed first tried to lie to the jews in the land of Jews.


Second of all the Romans had driven the jews out of Judea LONG before the muslims came. They also built a church where the Temple had been, after they built a pagan temple there.

LOL. Typical MusLIEm distortion. I said ISRAEL. Not Egypt, NOT ethiopia, NOT "Judea" as a whole............ ISRAEL. Most of your Islamo-facists bullshit rests on that lie..... Muhammed, the father of your lies, wasnt even born with your own framework or framework of lies, you lieing liar. The Jews were in Israel long before you can even lie. The internet is a haven against the lies of Islam. Word! The Jews were there first. Challenge that fact, devil-worshipper.

What came first? The Jews of Israel or Muhammed and his retard band of idiots claim to Jerusalem?


third for most of the last two millennia Jews were SAFER in the Islamic world than in europe, and that will become true again as soon as the Palestinian issue is settled.

If by "safer", you mean "Dhimmi" or equivalent. You're stupid.

Jews, throughout post-ancient egyptian-Islamic history and to this day, are look on as "Dhimmi". Because Islam is the great opressor. Just look at your women.




Fourth actually read the effing Qu'an and Hadiths to find out about the religion.

last I am gland you looked up which Kalifah captured Jerusalem. But saddened that you portrayed the province as having been populated by jews Immediately before then. Goo ol roman white people are the ones that scattered the Jews. Not the Arabs.

Now you dispute historical records? On what grounds? Let me guess...... the Jews didnt like Muhammed because


A: He preached sex with 13 year olds

B: Convert them by swords

C: They're racists!

LMAO!!!!

Blame the romans= blame whitey. You guys are stuck in the stone age of "Believe in Muhammed or else" and forced conversions!

Stay in your stone age.

Let the West move Beyond!!!

[BrendaQG]

Tfan. You can say what you want. These are the facts for the benefit of any and all who come here.

First. I assert as well as most historians Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed long before the birth of islam. As proof.
Wikipedia:destruction of Jerusalem 70AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Jerusalem)
Second I assert that the jews did revolt against the Romans and were scattered to the four winds with their defeat by the Romans.
Wikipedia:Bar Kokhba's revolt 130's AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba's_revolt)
Last but not least most every historian ackowledges that the Judeans gave the Romans Hell. They did not loose because they did not fight hard. They lost because the Romans, at the height of their Imperial power, fought smart.

Simon bar Kokhba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba)

"This was a costly victory for Rome, and Emperor Hadrian, when reporting to the Roman Senate, did not begin with the customary greeting: "I and my army are well", and refused a triumphant entrance, the only recorded instance in history where this was the case. In the aftermath of the war, Emperor Hadrian renamed the province of Judaea as Syria Palaestina, named for the Philistines, in order to humiliate the Jewish population by naming it after their ancient enemies. The name persists to this day as Palestine."

Last but not least I really have to laugh at being called an "Islamofaschist" You do realize I am an exotic entertainer? Right?

Tfan. You can say what you want. These are the facts for the benefit of any and all who come here.

First. I assert as well as most historians Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed long before the birth of islam. As proof.
Wikipedia:destruction of Jerusalem 70AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Jerusalem)


So you don't deny the jews were in Israel LONG before Islam was ever fabricated.

At least you admit the truth.


Second I assert that the jews did revolt against the Romans and were scattered to the four winds with their defeat by the Romans.
Wikipedia:Bar Kokhba's revolt 130's AD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba's_revolt)

So you admit; the Jews were forcibly removed. Just like Iran, Ahmedinejad and most of the Arab/Muslim world want to do. :lol:

At least you admit the truth.


Last but not least most every historian ackowledges that the Judeans gave the Romans Hell. They did not loose because they did not fight hard. They lost because the Romans, at the height of their Imperial power, fought smart.

Simon bar Kokhba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba)

So you mean the Jews lost Israel in a war, fair and square?

Just like the Arab's lost Israel in the Israeli/Arab war of 1948?

LOL. Do I detect the smell of the traditional Muslim double standard?

It's ok if the Jews lost Israel in a war with the Romans. But if Islam loses Israel in a war, then it's Jihad?

Now I think I understand you perfectly.


Last but not least I really have to laugh at being called an "Islamofaschist" You do realize I am an exotic entertainer? Right?

A profession that'd have you hung up and strung up in the Arab world. You can thank our Christian Forefathers for your right to be.


I'll close with my fantastic quote-
It's ok if the Jews lost Israel in a war with the Romans. But if Islam loses Israel in a war, then it's Jihad?

[BrendaQG]

The history of the middle east is long and complicated. In a nutshell the reason why a palestinain state was not created was because of the notion of Pan Arabism and the concept of the Caliphate. The Caliphate is a pan Islamic state. Basically Imagine what it would be like to have had the vatican rule all of Catholic europe. The Arabs wanted to unifiy into a huge state. This almost happened a couple of times... but it never really worked out.

The right of conquest is a valid way to capture a state however it is not always practical to conquere a larger and faster growing population. Furthermore it is not always right for the strong to do as they will. I mean doe the fact the the Wermacht kicked the red army's ass give the Germans the legit right to drive off all the "inferior" people they found in Russia? Or to do anything else they wanted to do? HELL NO. Those things were wrong just as it is wrong for Israel to use it's millitary muscle to oppress a population of size equal to it's own and faster growing.

Right now the Palestinians are stateless people living in utter poverty. How can there be peace when there is such a vast imbalance between people living so close together? Should the Palestinians just Curl up and die.

Oh and @ Vicky Richter and people who think like her about Islam.

How much of the Quran have you read? I mean do you know of what you speak or are you equating the entire religion with some particular assholes who claim to practice it?

The history of the middle east is long and complicated.

It's very simple, actually... though you will attempt, again, to cloud, cast doubt and imply malfeasance when it comes to the rightful ownership of Israel, both legally and religiously. It's called "Psychological warfare" and I'll give you credit, it is very effective against the guilty white liberal in this country.


In a nutshell the reason why a palestinain state was not created was because of the notion of Pan Arabism and the concept of the Caliphate. The Caliphate is a pan Islamic state. Basically Imagine what it would be like to have had the vatican rule all of Catholic europe. The Arabs wanted to unifiy into a huge state. This almost happened a couple of times... but it never really worked out.

Actually, withholding Israel, Arabs have the right, right now to form another Caliphate. It is the militant INSISTENCE, that the Jews abandon their legal right, Israel, that we're fighting over today just as we were 60 years ago and 1400 years ago. There isn't a caliphate, simply put, because not all Arabs want one because Arabs, in spite of their short comings, are actually intelligent. Not all Muslims want to live in a taliban like state and not all Arab's want to live in a westernized Arab state.

So their will never be a true Caliphate.


The right of conquest is a valid way to capture a state however it is not always practical to conquere a larger and faster growing population. Furthermore it is not always right for the strong to do as they will. I mean doe the fact the the Wermacht kicked the red army's ass give the Germans the legit right to drive off all the "inferior" people they found in Russia? Or to do anything else they wanted to do? HELL NO. Those things were wrong just as it is wrong for Israel to use it's millitary muscle to oppress a population of size equal to it's own and faster growing.

Let's not forget, Israel didn't use it's "military muscle" to attack it's neighbors. Israel's neighbors (all of em) attacked ISRAEL.... Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon attacked Israel, FIRST in 1948 and you guys lost. Almost from the day it was reborn, Israel was attacked by muslims. But even before that, the Mufti (A pro-Nazi arab leader) was riling idiots against the Jews.

Don't talk about who's right and who's wrong because the facts prove you are wrong, no matter what approach you take to the topic.

If you want to argue that the Jews were forced out of Israel by the Romans fine. But I'm going to counter that the Muslims lost Israel to the Jews in the same manner. You can't argue from both sides. Either it's ok to take land by conquest or it's not. The Jews were in Israel before Muhammeds daddy's daddy was even a gleem in his great grandfathers eyes. It belongs to them. If you justify their removal by the romans then you justify conquest.

And by justifying conquest you justify the current state of Israel.

If you say conquest is wrong, then the Romans were wrong and Israel still belongs to the jews.


Right now the Palestinians are stateless people living in utter poverty. How can there be peace when there is such a vast imbalance between people living so close together? Should the Palestinians just Curl up and die.

No they are human beings. They should not curl up and die. They should stop believing the brainwash that the PLO and Hezbollah are feeding them and move forward with real peace efforts.... It's what the Israeli's have wanted. Hell, they made large land concessions in 2000 for that purpose.... but guess what? You're guys failed to keep their word and the Israelis had to call the repo-man on the land.

You want to blame someone for Palestinian failure? Blame the thugs that you allow to roam freely throughoutt Palestine and blame the palestinians for allowing that them to get away with it.

[BrendaQG]

Thugs that I allow to roam about the middle east. Need I remind you that I live in Chicago and have earned money through erotic entertainment? :-?

Somehow I do not think I want to get anywhere near the Palestinian territories. A bit too poor and rough for me right now.

OTOH if Prez. Amenijad wanted me to help his country realize it's goal of clean greenhouse gas free Nuclear power I would go to his country. I would at least consider such a job offer.

I think you'd soon find yourself unemployed.

Iran has lied about it's nuclear program before.... many, many times.

Reason to believe they will again.... or they are.

Thugs that I allow to roam about the middle east. Need I remind you that I live in Chicago and have earned money through erotic entertainment? :-?


The palestinians allow the thugs of Hezbollah and misc Infitada cronies to roam their streets and jeapordize the safety of the general public.

The palestinians should be marching against the intifada faggots.

[johnnyshemalelover]

TFan said:


In the 1970s and 1980s the Republicans emerged as a truly conservative party.



Really? I guess we have a different meaning for the word conservative. To me, it means fiscal responsibility, thriftiness, planning for the future. The Republican party abandoned all pretense to any of that when Reagan was elected. The attached graph is easily verifiable; the information can be gleaned from the US Department of the Treasury's web site and there are a number of inflation calculators on the web for correcting the yearly dollar amounts.




And I haven't mentioned Richard Nixon yet. The less said the better.

Not necessarily:

He balanced the budget
Started the EPA (protect the environment)
Instituted the minimum wage
Started Affirmative Action (make it easier for minorities to get jobs)
Ended American involvement in Vietnam
Got the SALT Treaty signed
Normalized relations with Communist China
Started OSHA (protect workers from dangerous working conditions)
Intermediated in the middle east conflict and helped stop the carnage in Israel for a time
Indexed social security for inflation.
Created Supplemental Security Income (SSI).

Was Nixon a great man? No. Was he a great president? He could have been one of the best presidents the US ever had, but he got corrupted by power. It's too bad that he apparently turned evil toward the end of his time in office. That's what most people remember him for, rather than his monumental accomplishments.

As far as the graph below, it shows the neocon approach to getting votes: Borrow and Spend like a MOTHERFUCKER! Almost all dollars spent by the US government are spent on US goods and services, which stimulates the economy. Keeping taxes low helps that as well. The problem is that borrowing more and more money every year doesn't "fix" the economy, it just hides the problems.

The national debt can't continue the way that it has been, and at this point a catastrophic economic collapse is pretty much inevitable for the US. The debt is only one factor in that collapse; the other is the petrodollar which, when it loses its exclusivity will cause a dramatic drop in the dollar's value; along with China releasing their three trillion in US currency into the global economy this will cause the dollar to implode.

[dgtlmstry]

I knew this would eventually get long winded...anyway, my answer to the ORIGINAL question is yes.

[johnnyshemalelover]

I knew this would eventually get long winded...anyway, my answer to the ORIGINAL question is yes.

Seconded.

[Quinn]

TFan said:


In the 1970s and 1980s the Republicans emerged as a truly conservative party.



Really? I guess we have a different meaning for the word conservative. To me, it means fiscal responsibility, thriftiness, planning for the future. The Republican party abandoned all pretense to any of that when Reagan was elected. The attached graph is easily verifiable; the information can be gleaned from the US Department of the Treasury's web site and there are a number of inflation calculators on the web for correcting the yearly dollar amounts.




And I haven't mentioned Richard Nixon yet. The less said the better.

Not necessarily:

He balanced the budget
Started the EPA (protect the environment)
Instituted the minimum wage
Started Affirmative Action (make it easier for minorities to get jobs)
Ended American involvement in Vietnam
Got the SALT Treaty signed
Normalized relations with Communist China
Started OSHA (protect workers from dangerous working conditions)
Intermediated in the middle east conflict and helped stop the carnage in Israel for a time
Indexed social security for inflation.
Created Supplemental Security Income (SSI).

Was Nixon a great man? No. Was he a great president? He could have been one of the best presidents the US ever had, but he got corrupted by power. It's too bad that he apparently turned evil toward the end of his time in office. That's what most people remember him for, rather than his monumental accomplishments.

As far as the graph below, it shows the neocon approach to getting votes: Borrow and Spend like a MOTHERFUCKER! Almost all dollars spent by the US government are spent on US goods and services, which stimulates the economy. Keeping taxes low helps that as well. The problem is that borrowing more and more money every year doesn't "fix" the economy, it just hides the problems.

The national debt can't continue the way that it has been, and at this point a catastrophic economic collapse is pretty much inevitable for the US. The debt is only one factor in that collapse; the other is the petrodollar which, when it loses its exclusivity will cause a dramatic drop in the dollar's value; along with China releasing their three trillion in US currency into the global economy this will cause the dollar to implode.

Great post.... I completely share your assessment of this nation's imperiled underlying economic fundamentals. The fact is a large part of my investment strategy is based on that eventuality. While I strongly prefer that the aforementioned collapse not to take place, if I can't stop it, I'm damn sure going to profit handsomely form it. One non-word: cha-ching!!!!

-Quinn

[lisaparadise]

religion is child abuse when the parents abuse it themselves aka muslums abuse it more then any other race they seem to think its ok to drive a plane into the world trade centre and kill as many humans as possable so they can be closer to god,catholics as a rule force religeon down there kids throats and wonder why there boys all fucked up cause the priest sexually abused them,this happens alot more than we think.but hey everyone has a god we say thanks to and pray to, the simple truth of the matter is the bible isnt perfect nor accurate yet when we are dying or our loved ones are dying we look up above and pray that there is someone up there listening to us at our time of need and yet for the most part it seems only too often that our prayers go unheard and we are left to greive in anger, saddness and a tottal loss of our senses for awhile,so ya i have a god i pray to but it may not be the one you, him, her or anyone else has but shes there for me when i need her and i dont push her on my kids like most would,they will find there god in time and it will be a wonderfull thing

[TJ347]

religion is child abuse when the parents abuse it themselves aka muslums abuse it more then any other race they seem to think its ok to drive a plane into the world trade centre and kill as many humans as possable so they can be closer to god,catholics as a rule force religeon down there kids throats and wonder why there boys all fucked up cause the priest sexually abused them,this happens alot more than we think.but hey everyone has a god we say thanks to and pray to, the simple truth of the matter is the bible isnt perfect nor accurate yet when we are dying or our loved ones are dying we look up above and pray that there is someone up there listening to us at our time of need and yet for the most part it seems only too often that our prayers go unheard and we are left to greive in anger, saddness and a tottal loss of our senses for awhile,so ya i have a god i pray to but it may not be the one you, him, her or anyone else has but shes there for me when i need her and i dont push her on my kids like most would,they will find there god in time and it will be a wonderfull thing

Firstly, Muslims are not a race, and secondly, just as there are violent Islamic sects, there are violent Christian sects, even to this day. Never forget that the Ku Klux Klan considers itself to be a Christian organization, and that the Church of Jesus Christ Christian is a white supremacist organzation which has no problems rectifying those two ideologies. I stay out of these types of discussions to avoid getting worked up, but having gotten to know real Muslims, and not the whack jobs such as those responsible for 9/11, I find it difficult to sit back and remain silent when their religion is besmirched by people who don't know what its basic tenets are, and somehow jump to the conclusion that Islam is intrinsically violent. Like any religion, taken in parts Islam can be twisted to support the most inhuman acts... but let's remember, as I've said, that this is like any religion. If we do not know the subject matter on which we are speaking very well, seeing as how millions have adopted it as their faith, perhaps we should reconsider before blasting it as if it is something as ludicrous as Scientology. That's all I've got...

[LG]

TFan said:


In the 1970s and 1980s the Republicans emerged as a truly conservative party.



Really? I guess we have a different meaning for the word conservative. To me, it means fiscal responsibility, thriftiness, planning for the future. The Republican party abandoned all pretense to any of that when Reagan was elected. The attached graph is easily verifiable; the information can be gleaned from the US Department of the Treasury's web site and there are a number of inflation calculators on the web for correcting the yearly dollar amounts.




And I haven't mentioned Richard Nixon yet. The less said the better.

Not necessarily:

He balanced the budget
Started the EPA (protect the environment)
Instituted the minimum wage
Started Affirmative Action (make it easier for minorities to get jobs)
Ended American involvement in Vietnam
Got the SALT Treaty signed
Normalized relations with Communist China
Started OSHA (protect workers from dangerous working conditions)
Intermediated in the middle east conflict and helped stop the carnage in Israel for a time
Indexed social security for inflation.
Created Supplemental Security Income (SSI).

Was Nixon a great man? No. Was he a great president? He could have been one of the best presidents the US ever had, but he got corrupted by power. It's too bad that he apparently turned evil toward the end of his time in office. That's what most people remember him for, rather than his monumental accomplishments.

As far as the graph below, it shows the neocon approach to getting votes: Borrow and Spend like a MOTHERFUCKER! Almost all dollars spent by the US government are spent on US goods and services, which stimulates the economy. Keeping taxes low helps that as well. The problem is that borrowing more and more money every year doesn't "fix" the economy, it just hides the problems.

The national debt can't continue the way that it has been, and at this point a catastrophic economic collapse is pretty much inevitable for the US. The debt is only one factor in that collapse; the other is the petrodollar which, when it loses its exclusivity will cause a dramatic drop in the dollar's value; along with China releasing their three trillion in US currency into the global economy this will cause the dollar to implode.

Great post.... I completely share your assessment of this nation's imperiled underlying economic fundamentals. The fact is a large part of my investment strategy is based on that eventuality. While I strongly prefer that the aforementioned collapse not to take place, if I can't stop it, I'm damn sure going to profit handsomely form it. One non-word: cha-ching!!!!

-Quinn

Whoo-boy, this is an old thread!

There are several aspects to politics. I still assert that the Republicans' social policies changed in the 80s under Reagan, even though financially the once stable Republican way of balancing the budget only went haywire under Reagan (with his ridiculous 'Star Wars' strategic defense systems) and later Bushes I and (especially) II.

As for Nixon, yes he turned evil. To me that kind of negates all his other accomplishments, though many were commendable at the time. As a president, the US has had much worse (you don't need look past the current one for an example), but as a man, I'd say he was a shit.

And, having said that, China definitely is rising as a global power and Europe has got her act together. I doubt the US will be in such a position of financial or military power as it is now in 5-10 years time.

And the best selling saloon cars in the US are Japanese made, whereas in Europe and Asia, nobody buys American cars. That could be a sign of the times and a warning of what is to come ahead.

[guyone]

What does this have to do with circumcision?

[LG]

What does this have to do with circumcision?

Not sure. I can't remember how party politics came into it in the first place and it's too long to read through it all again. These threads move in mysterious ways.

It's a pretty old thread. I just felt like responding to a recent comment relating to something I posted from God knows when. I wouldn't pay it too much attention, really- don't know why the thread was brought back to life, but it's been shunted into the politics section from the general discussion forum, so here it is. I think Monica was the first poster (she's since been banned- twice).

[lisaparadise]

What does this have to do with circumcision? well em isnt the post called is religeon child abuse?

[Quinn]

Whoo-boy, this is an old thread!

There are several aspects to politics. I still assert that the Republicans' social policies changed in the 80s under Reagan, even though financially the once stable Republican way of balancing the budget only went haywire under Reagan (with his ridiculous 'Star Wars' strategic defense systems) and later Bushes I and (especially) II.

As for Nixon, yes he turned evil. To me that kind of negates all his other accomplishments, though many were commendable at the time. As a president, the US has had much worse (you don't need look past the current one for an example), but as a man, I'd say he was a shit.

And, having said that, China definitely is rising as a global power and Europe has got her act together. I doubt the US will be in such a position of financial or military power as it is now in 5-10 years time.

And the best selling saloon cars in the US are Japanese made, whereas in Europe and Asia, nobody buys American cars. That could be a sign of the times and a warning of what is to come ahead.

I agree with the position that Republican fiscal policies took a truly unfortunate turn during the Regan era. Cutting taxes to stimulate spending, thereby increasing revenue (the Lauffer Curve), isn't without its merits from a strictly economic standpoint, but doing so when you have massive deficits (because spending is out of control) on a continuous basis – not just to spend your way out of a recession/depression as Keynes advocated – is as ruinous a policy as any seen in Latin America during the 70s.

Add to this the problem of a steadily depreciating dollar – with the result that that both foreign investors and governments are now rapidly diversifying away from dollar denominated assets and the US economy as a whole – and you have a recipe for disaster. Keep in mind, I haven’t even addressed the deleterious economic effects of this nation’s unfunded liabilities or unchecked illegal immigration, both of which will add to the severity of any future economic downturn.

Here’s the problem. Business cycles (Schumpeter, etc.) are an integral part of a free market economy. Recessions, and even depressions, are necessary to even out the disequilibriums that develop in a nation’s economy during periods of growth. Unfortunately, today no presidential administration, Democratic or Republican, wants a recession or depression to occur on its watch because said event usually results in their losing the White House. Congressional majorities can also be affected. The result has been the implementation of reckless policies designed to continually postpone a recession/depression (not on my watch). These policies, which serving the short-term good, are disastrous from a long-term perspective. Historic examples abound.

-Quinn

[chefmike]

What does this have to do with circumcision?

Not sure. I can't remember how party politics came into it in the first place and it's too long to read through it all again. These threads move in mysterious ways.

It's a pretty old thread. I just felt like responding to a recent comment relating to something I posted from God knows when. I wouldn't pay it too much attention, really- don't know why the thread was brought back to life, but it's been shunted into the politics section from the general discussion forum, so here it is. I think Monica was the first poster (she's since been banned- twice).

This thread was initially J's, LG.

[TJ347]

This "J" you speak of... Was he what you'd call a "good" guy, or no? I only ask because Kriss seems convinced that I am "J", and I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, though ultimately I suppose it doesn't really matter, as I'm not "J" anyway... On second thought, nevermind.

[chefmike]

Alright, I see that NYCe popped in and gave me my new rank! Thanks, NYCe! You da man!!

[LG]

This thread was initially J's, LG.

Yes, I think you're right...Whatever happened to him? (aside from- I suppose- being banned or wiping out his account). It was an interesting debate, actually...

As for passing 5000 and getting a new rank, all I can say is : :claps . But "Junkyard Dog"...? Aren't they supposed to be mean old animals? I believe that it was Jim Croce who sang:

And it's bad, bad Leroy Brown
The baddest man in the whole damned town
Badder than old King Kong
And meaner than a junkyard dog

Although, sadly, Leroy Brown gets the shit kicked out of him by the end of that song. So I'm not sure what NYCe was thinking there... :D

[johnnyshemalelover]

Whoo-boy, this is an old thread!

There are several aspects to politics. I still assert that the Republicans' social policies changed in the 80s under Reagan, even though financially the once stable Republican way of balancing the budget only went haywire under Reagan (with his ridiculous 'Star Wars' strategic defense systems) and later Bushes I and (especially) II.

As for Nixon, yes he turned evil. To me that kind of negates all his other accomplishments, though many were commendable at the time. As a president, the US has had much worse (you don't need look past the current one for an example), but as a man, I'd say he was a shit.

And, having said that, China definitely is rising as a global power and Europe has got her act together. I doubt the US will be in such a position of financial or military power as it is now in 5-10 years time.

And the best selling saloon cars in the US are Japanese made, whereas in Europe and Asia, nobody buys American cars. That could be a sign of the times and a warning of what is to come ahead.

American cars? Are there actually any American cars anymore? Several "foreign" cars are made in the USA, many if not most "American" cars are made in Canada, Mexico or overseas, and even the "American" cars that are assembled in America are put together mostly by robots from parts made in foreign countries. But this all supports your point, of course. US goods and services are too expensive even for American citizens; the US isn't globally competitive anymore.

There's more. I tend to be long-winded so I've broken it down.

If this has been discussed before, I wasn't aware of it.

1. In Vietnam, one of the largest militaries ever was unable to defeat a third-world country. This is for the simple reason of guerrilla fighters. You can't fight what you can't see, the only way to wipe out the guerrillas is to kill everyone old enough to carry a pipe bomb, and that's not workable.

2. The Vietnam failure was noted by some people in the mideast.

3. When Russia (which had the biggest military in the world at that time) invaded Afghanistan (a very weak country), mideasterners from all around went there and employed guerrilla tactics. Not to defeat Russia, but to prevent them from winning and to make their occupation as expensive as possible. After ten years, Russia went bankrupt. The arms race helped bankrupt Russia but the war in Afghanistan helped a hell of a lot as well.

4. Those mideasterners who helped Afghanistan (they're now known as al Qaeda) eventually became fed up with US-backed dictatorships, occupation and military aggression in the Mideast, decided to do the same thing to the US: draw the country into an unwinnable war in order to drain its economy and bankrupt it.

5. 9/11 as a result of #4.

6. The US obliges al Qaeda by entering not one but two unwinnable wars.

That's part 1.

Part 2:

1. In the 1970s, the US started experiencing the recession that inevitably comes when a country becomes so wealthy and its wages so high, it can't compete with the rest of the world in the marketplace.

2. This recession has remained hidden ever since, through massive borrowing and spending. The PC boom gave a short respite in the late 1990s, but then PC manufacturing was outsourced to China and tech services was outsourced mostly to India.

3. The dollar remains strong because nations can't buy oil in any currency other than dollars. This creates a demand for dollars. The Euro was worth roughly 80 cents on the dollar until Saddam Hussein started selling oil in Euros. Even though the amount of oil he could sell was sharply limited due to sanctions, the dollar immediately began to fall and kept falling until the US invaded and switched Iraq back to petrodollars. The dollar had fallen about 50% against the Euro, and remains so today. If any nation were to start selling massive quantities of oil in currency other than dollars, the dollar would drop like a rock.

4. China is by far the US's biggest lender.

5. China may have (I have not confirmed this but it makes sense) three trillion dollars in US money.


When the US loses its lock on petroleum through other countries starting to sell oil in other currencies, it will cause a rate of inflation the likes of which the US has not seen before. If China decides to stop all lending to the US, this will cause the dollar to drop farther and faster. If China releases their US money into the global economy all at once, the dollar will drop even farther and even faster.

If the US tries to withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan to conserve its resources in the face of economic catastrophe, al Qaeda will attack again, probably even worse than 9/11, forcing the US to remain in those wars or risk a horrific loss of morale among its citizens.

At this time, China would finally invade Taiwan. The US would either watch impotently or drain off even more resources fighting China.

When I post the above to newsgroups in the US, I rarely get a response even if I beg people to tell me why I'm wrong. If I mention it to people in Europe, they respond as though this is really old news.

So, yeah. Probably within five to ten years, definitely within twenty, the shit's going to hit the fan.

[chefmike]

This thread was initially J's, LG.

Yes, I think you're right...Whatever happened to him? (aside from- I suppose- being banned or wiping out his account). It was an interesting debate, actually...

As for passing 5000 and getting a new rank, all I can say is : :claps . But "Junkyard Dog"...? Aren't they supposed to be mean old animals? I believe that it was Jim Croce who sang:

And it's bad, bad Leroy Brown
The baddest man in the whole damned town
Badder than old King Kong
And meaner than a junkyard dog

Although, sadly, Leroy Brown gets the shit kicked out of him by the end of that song. So I'm not sure what NYCe was thinking there... :D

I picked the name, LG! NYCe was gracious enough to approve it when I hit my 5K mark, perhaps suggesting that naming your rank will be the tradition for the 5K post, but that's for NYCe to say...not me.

And like I said earlier, I think the new rank fits well with my role as an HA peacemaker and all-around nice guy... :wink:

EDIT: I edited the post because I meant to say that naming your rank might be the tradition for the 5K post...and if so, I wonder what Kelly's rank will be?... or better yet, what will White_Mounted_Canadian's be?

[chefmike]

This "J" you speak of... Was he what you'd call a "good" guy, or no? I only ask because Kriss seems convinced that I am "J", and I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, though ultimately I suppose it doesn't really matter, as I'm not "J" anyway... On second thought, nevermind.

Some of us thought a great deal of J and his posts...and anyone who says that J is posting here under a different name is totally wrong....J's wit and posting style were unique...and coming back while hiding under a new handle is not something that J would do...

[Quinn]

This "J" you speak of... Was he what you'd call a "good" guy, or no? I only ask because Kriss seems convinced that I am "J", and I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, though ultimately I suppose it doesn't really matter, as I'm not "J" anyway... On second thought, nevermind.

Some of us thought a great deal of J and his posts...and anyone who says that J is posting here under a different name is totally wrong....J's wit and posting style were unique...and coming back while hiding under a new handle is not something that J would do...

Cosign.

-Quinn

[LG]

This "J" you speak of... Was he what you'd call a "good" guy, or no? I only ask because Kriss seems convinced that I am "J", and I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, though ultimately I suppose it doesn't really matter, as I'm not "J" anyway... On second thought, nevermind.

Some of us thought a great deal of J and his posts...and anyone who says that J is posting here under a different name is totally wrong....J's wit and posting style were unique...and coming back while hiding under a new handle is not something that J would do...

Cosign.

-Quinn

I agree. Though I didn't always agree with what J had to say, I always found his posts interesting and very witty. It would be nice to have him back but I don't think he'll be returning.

[LG]

I picked the name, LG! NYCe was gracious enough to approve it when I hit my 5K mark, perhaps suggesting your rank will be the tradition for the 5K post, but that's for NYCe to say...not me.

And like I said earlier, I think the new rank fits well with my role as an HA peacemaker and all-around nice guy... :wink:

I like the name. But HA peacemaker? :D

Anyway, seeing as I've suddenly decided not to be nice to everyone like I used to, maybe you can take my place as the nice guy around here. :D

[Quinn]

I like the name. But HA peacemaker? :D

Ghandi was a violent sadist by comparison. LOL...

-Quinn

[chefmike]

LMFAO

[AlexZello]

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think? uh, here's the site in question: Middle East conflict (http://samsonblinded.org/blog)

[q1a2z3]

A people unwilling to serve God is destine to be ruled by tyranny. Child abuse comes from moral relativism usually found in todays multiculturalism and perversity crowd, the global warming crowd and the replace God with government crowd. Right and wrong are defined and redefined daily by these moonbats.

[trish]

A people unwilling to serve God is destine to be ruled by tyranny. Child abuse comes from moral relativism usually found in todays multiculturalism and perversity crowd, the global warming crowd and the replace God with government crowd. Right and wrong are defined and redefined daily by these moonbats.

Wow! And I always thought child abuse was rare among atheist intellectuals and professors of philosophy, science and mathematics. So there’s actually a link between believing that the causes of climate change are anthropogenic and child abuse? Are you just making this up as you go along or can you cite a respectable, refereed journal? If you haven’t noticed the Bible defines and redefines right and wrong in every chapter of every book. The Bible can’t even settle on one Genesis story. It has at least four contradictory stories of the life of Jesus and the new covenant is by definition a flip-flob on the old. Which is it now, do we stone adulterous wives or do we do unto them what we would have them to unto us? Moonbat :roll:

[q1a2z3]

Secular humanism teaches children that they are just another brick in the wall and a cog in the wheel. There is nothing contradictory in the Holy Bible - people find what they want. If you go looking for contradictions you find them. Finding faith and teaching children faith in God is the best one can do. The MP crowd only tolerate other "communities" that have a moral relative foundation. They casually make fun of Christians, while it's the likes of Dawkins who are deranged. The MP crowd doesn't want to be accountable to God. The moobats on NPR regularly make fun of Huckabee and others who believe the universe was created in 6 days.

There are three Genesis stories and all three are true.

Moonbats have been successful at getting soft-headed judges to declare their hobby a "lifestyle." A hobby that goes against "be fruitful and multiply" and "evolution" that they hold up as truth, but they can't even reproduce their own kind. So much for survival of the fittest. They have worked hard to get hate crime and hate speech laws in place, which are just one step away from George Orwell's 1984's "thought crime" and an attack on the first amendment.

Dawkins speaks to taking children away from their religious parents. what a moonbat!

[chefmike]

There are three Genesis stories and all three are true.

Of course they're true, and the moon really IS made of green cheese.

[trish]

There is nothing contradictory in the Holy Bible - people find what they want. If you go looking for contradictions you find them.

do you think before you write?

[q1a2z3]

You misunderstood my point, people who want to find something wrong with the Holy Bible will find it. It's not that there is really anything wrong there, they want it to be wrong or inconsistent, etc. so they say it's wrong or inconsistent.

[trish]

Of course I understand your point. It’s just that your point is idiotic. You can search the Earth for unicorns and you won’t find any, no matter how hard you look or how badly you want to find them, because there are none to be found. Not the case with contradictions in the Bible. They’re there for everyone to see. You don’t have to want to find them. Almost every curious child finds them by the dozens. What you have to do and work really hard to explain them away and cover them up. Tedious attempts to obfuscate and hide the obvious are usually enough to turn off the curiosity of any child; yet another reason why religion, when followed blindly and obstinately, is child abuse.

[q1a2z3]

Your "point" is that God's word cramps your hobby QED God word must be inconsistent. When a world has no moral absolutes the world becomes a relative chaos that one day will come round to bite those who initially enjoyed it's lack or morality.

[Oli]

And your point Zippy, is that the bible is the literal word of God, the foundation of all that is good and the moral compass that drives civilization.
Funny, a billion Indians and 1.3 billion Chinese don't agree with you.

Huckabee deserves to be made fun of, along with anyone else who steadfastly believes the world was 'created' in 6 days and is only 6000 years old. What verifiable evidence can they put forth to support any of their claims? None. Where is the evidence of the monumental flood? There isn't any. Did Jonah really live inside a whale for 3 days and nights? I don't think so.

As a series of morality tales, the bible can be very instructive. Believe anymore than that and you are a luddite.

[trish]

Your "point" is that God's word cramps your hobby QED

In mathematics QED is used to designate the end of a proof. However, a mere misstatement of somebody else’s point does not a proof make. Who said the world has no moral absolutes? I’m merely saying the Bible is not a reliable place to find them. The Bible is full of contradictions. From just a single contradiction everything follows. From the contradictions in the Bible all manner of hobbies can be and have been justified; all manner of silliness, obscenity, horror and atrocity. It’s time for the world to grow up and put away its childish legends.

[fitfred]

oh my god - it's true - some americans really do think the bible is 'true'!!!!!! are they mad - it's a library of books written by hundreds of different people over the course of a thousand or more years as the story of one particular tribe that expanded in what is now Israel....it is not something to be taken as the complete history of the world. and the bible most of us know is a selection of many more books that were discarded as inconvenient to the ruling powers at the time.

if you have been taught never to challenge the bible, i am sorry for you. you have a brain and you should use it - if you wish to believe in something, then find out about it and prove it to yourself - don't simply believe because that's what you are told to do.

as for the cheap shots at professor richard dawkins - as he says - at least his fundamentalist belief in Darwinism (and mine) doesn't mean he beheads non-believers nor flies his planes into their buildings, and he and i are both completely prepared to change views if provable evidence is available.

religion - it's for the ill-educated masses - wakey wakey america

[q1a2z3]

Hey fitfred if you were in the assassination business you couldn't handle in a locked closet with a grenade. Godless liberals like yourself believe in lots of things that have been proven false but you continue to believe them. Here is a partial list:

1. Anyone can get AIDS. Actually, you get AIDS be having someone shoot an infected load of semen up your ass. The whole "get tested" campaign is a load of crap for heterosexuals.

2. The government pulled off 911 for oil. Moonbat alert!

3. Global warming is real. LOL!

4. There is no God. This has to be true if you want to have a hobby as in item #1 above.

5. Bush lied about WMD.

6. Iraq would be better if saddam was left in power.



When one sins enough and is lucky enough to hear God talking to him about how life is not working out the way he planned it, one knows there is a God.

The God I pray to created the universe in 6 days and rested on the 7th. He spoke the universe into existence.

[trish]

1. Anyone can get AIDS. Actually, you get AIDS be having someone shoot an infected load of semen up your ass. The whole "get tested" campaign is a load of crap for heterosexuals.

Tell that to half the continent of Africa where the disease is rampant among heterosexuals, drug users anywhere who share needles, hemophiliacs and anyone else who contracted it by blood transfusions.


2. The government pulled off 911 for oil. Moonbat alert!

I don’t know many liberals who believe this one. The people who do believe are nut cases and can be found of both the liberal and conservative persuasions.


3. Global warming is real. LOL!

Again it doesn’t take a liberal to subscribe to this one, just a brain. Very few climatologists (a group of divergent political leanings) dispute over the occurrence of global climate change.


4. There is no God. This has to be true if you want to have a hobby as in item #1 above.

This too is not a liberal thing. Almost nobody in Europe (neither liberal nor conservative) believes in that fairy tale any more.


5. Bush lied about WMD.

I can't say whether Bush lied or told what he thought was the truth; and neither can you. What everyone does know (except for a miniscule portion of die-hard bush supporters) is that Bush was seriously wrong about WMD’s in Iraq.


6. Iraq would be better if saddam was left in power.

Without a doubt, there would have been a few hundred million less dead Iraqi’s, they’d be al Qaeda free, they’d have a defense against Iran, they’d still have an infrastructure, and a sectarian, if tyrannical government. You can be the judge whether that’s better than the shit they got now.

If you’re plagued by your “sins” and you start hearing voices, it’s time to change your life style and maybe see a doctor. Perhaps your hatreds are getting the better of you. You might stop thinking of Middle Easterners are camel jockeys. You might entertain political solutions other than “nukem”. I find it somewhat ironic that the god you pray to is a little tribal desert god. The desert religion took over the classical spirit of the western world when Rome fell and Europe slowly drifted into the dark ages.


Godless liberals…believe in lots of things that have been proven false but you continue to believe them. Here is a partial list:

Sounds to me like you're justifying your own false belief by attempting to point out that others maintain false beliefs. Exactly how does that work? Are you saying god doesn't exist but you believe anywhay!!?? Oh and by the way, not one thing on your list is an example of something that is BOTH false AND is a characteristic belief of liberals. Try again.

[muhmuh]

Anyone can get AIDS. Actually, you get AIDS be having someone shoot an infected load of semen up your ass. The whole "get tested" campaign is a load of crap for heterosexuals.

so for the sake of argument assuming this is true according to you some time in the 1930s a gay man in congo was bummed by a bonobo and in some regions of africa just about every man is gay and bums children as young as just a couple of months old (which neatly ties in with the threads topic)
is that about correct?

[Cuchulain]

1. Anyone can get AIDS. Actually, you get AIDS be having someone shoot an infected load of semen up your ass. The whole "get tested" campaign is a load of crap for heterosexuals.

2. The government pulled off 911 for oil. Moonbat alert!

3. Global warming is real. LOL!

4. There is no God. This has to be true if you want to have a hobby as in item #1 above.

5. Bush lied about WMD.

6. Iraq would be better if saddam was left in power.



When one sins enough and is lucky enough to hear God talking to him about how life is not working out the way he planned it, one knows there is a God.

The God I pray to created the universe in 6 days and rested on the 7th. He spoke the universe into existence.

I can't decide whether this guy is really that stupid or if he justs wants to stir up shit - either way, he DESERVES to have Dubya as his president.

[Oli]

Perhaps this qualifies...

Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies

By ROBERT IMRIE
Associated Press Writer

WESTON, Wis. (AP) -- Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter - who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin - had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline - a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester - was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/D/DAUGHTERS_DEATH_PRAYER?SITE=NCAGW&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[chefmike]

The God I pray to created the universe in 6 days and rested on the 7th. He spoke the universe into existence.

I guess that this deity that you grovel before didn't have enough time left over to "speak" and save that unfortunate girl from her fanatical and deluded parents, huh? Mentally unbalanced zealots like that poor girl's parents(and yourself) are every bit as insane and dangerous as the muslim fanatics that terrify you and your ilk so much.

[El Nino]

Agree with Chef here

[q1a2z3]

Talent on loan from God!

Rush Limbaugh usually says this daily on his radio show. People have talent on loan from God. Seeing a doctor for help is a good thing. God gave the doctors talent. This girl's parents tested God. The Holy Bible says not to test God. I thank God for all he gives me and I especially thank him for the small troubles I have in my life. I don't grovel before my God. I love my God. He is my father. He helps me everyday.

Watch the Ten Commandments movie and see him in action sometime.

[muhmuh]

Watch the Ten Commandments movie and see him in action sometime.

the one where the talented doctor kills one of his patients as a goof and gets assraped every night for the rest of his life because of it?

[trish]

q1a2z3 you're a bigger idiot than rush. read the story. they didn't test god, they trusted god and he let the girl slowly wither and die.

[q1a2z3]

Trish, it's amazing that people like you seem to function in society. Who "waters" you?

[trish]

With the fervor of a prophet you ask,


Who "waters" you?

and then two minutes later in another thread you write


Happiness is a warm gun. Bang, bang, shoot, shoot...

That alone speak volumes about hypocritical, mentally damaged and confused religious zealots like you. In what furnace was thy brain?

[Oli]

Parents charged in death of diabetic daughter

WESTON, Wisconsin (AP) -- Two parents who prayed as their 11-year-old daughter died of untreated diabetes were charged Monday with second-degree reckless homicide.

Family and friends had urged Dale and Leilani Neumann to get help for their daughter, but the father considered the illness "a test of faith" and the mother never considered taking the girl to the doctor because she thought her daughter was under a "spiritual attack," the criminal complaint said.

"It is very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical intervention," Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad said. "Her death could have been prevented."

Madeline Neumann died March 23 -- Easter Sunday -- at her family's rural Weston home. Her parents were told the body would be taken to Madison for an autopsy the next day.

"They responded, 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then,"' the medical examiner wrote in a report.

An autopsy determined that Madeline died from undiagnosed diabetic ketoacidosis, which left her with too little insulin in her body. Court records said she likely had some symptoms of the disease for months.

The Neumanns each face up to 25 years in prison if convicted. The couple and their attorney did not immediately return messages left Monday by The Associated Press.

Falstad said the Neumanns have cooperated with investigators and are not under arrest. They have agreed to make an initial court appearance Wednesday, she said.

Randall Wormgoor, a friend of the Neumanns, told police that Dale Neumann led Bible studies at his business, Monkey Mo Coffee Shop, and believed physical illness was due to sin, curable by prayer and by asking for forgiveness from God, the complaint said.

Wormgoor said he and his wife, Althea, were at the Neumann home when Madeline -- -- called Kara by her parents -- died. Wormgoor said he had urged the father to seek medical help and was told the illness "was a test of faith for the Neumann family and asked the Wormgoors to join them in praying for Kara to get well," the complaint said.

Althea Wormgoor said she "implored" the parents to seek medical help for the girl, the complaint said.

Leilani Neumann, 40, told the AP previously she never expected her daughter to die. The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, but they have nothing against doctors, she said.

Dale Neumann, 46, a former police officer, has said he has friends who are doctors and started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

According to court documents, Leilani Neumann said in a written statement to police that she never considered taking the girl, who was being home-schooled, to a doctor.

"We just thought it was a spiritual attack and we prayed for her. My husband Dale was crying and mentioned taking Kara to the doctor and I said, 'The Lord's going to heal her,' and we continued to pray," she wrote.

The father told investigators he noticed his daughter was weak and slower for about two weeks but he attributed it to symptoms of the girl reaching puberty, the complaint said.

A day before Madeline died, according to the criminal complaint, the father wrote an e-mail with the headline, "Help our daughter needs emergency prayer!!!!." It said his daughter was "very weak and pale at the moment with hardly any strength."

The girl's grandmother, Evalani Gordon, told police that she learned her granddaughter could not walk or talk on March 22 and advised Leilani Neumann to take the girl to a doctor.

Gordon eventually contacted a daughter-in-law in California who called police on a non-emergency line to report the girl was in a coma and needed medical help. An ambulance was dispatched shortly before some friends in the home called 911 to report the girl had stopped breathing, authorities said.

One relative told police that the girl's mother believed she "died because the devil is trying to stop Leilani from starting her own ministry," the complaint said.

The Neumanns said they moved to Weston, a suburb of Wausau in central Wisconsin, from California about two years ago to open the coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. The couple has three other children, ages 13 to 16; they are living with relatives.

The family does not belong to an organized religion or faith, Leilani Neumann has said.

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said the parents once belonged to the Lighthouse Pentecostal Church but later became what he called religious "isolationists" involved in a prayer group of five people.
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"They have gone out on their own," he said. "... They have a very narrow view of Scripture and I would say not many people hold to that narrow of view."

In March, an Oregon couple who belong to a church that preaches against medical care and believes in treating illness with prayer were charged with manslaughter and criminal mistreatment in the death of their 15-month-old daughter. The toddler died March 2 of bronchial pneumonia and a blood infection that could have been treated with antibiotics, the state medical examiner's office said.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/28/prayer.death.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

[hippifried]

The God I pray to created the universe in 6 days and rested on the 7th. He spoke the universe into existence.
So, uh... I guess you showed up on the 7th day?