Seven Year Itch: Scratching Brexit

[Stavros]

On the seventh anniversary of the Brexit referendum, Boris Johnson, who sort of led the Leave campaign, has insisted that the UK has benefited from voting Leave. You can read his snap verdict in three twits here-
Boris Johnson (@BorisJohnson) / Twitter (https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweete mbed%7Ctwterm%5E1672191946192822275%7Ctwgr%5Ee5203 90612f386bcbdece8e850502c2520d7d5ae%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpoliti cs%2Flive%2F2023%2Fjun%2F23%2Fbrexit-anniversary-poll-eu-rishi-sunak-jeremy-hunt-inflation-mortgages-uk-politics-live%3FfilterKeyEvents%3Dfalsepage%3Dwith3Ablock-64957b458f08657ec7321667)

Meanwhile, polls suggest that a majority now think leaving the EU was a mistake, though John Curtice has drilled into the stats to give a more rounded assessment, here-
Britain has changed hugely since 2016. This is how the Brexit vote would go now | John Curtice | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/23/britain-2016-brexit-vote-eu-referendum-labour)

What is of interest is how the EU has changed. From being at its origin a Franco-German economic relationship, with the UK because of its size and financial input becoming the 'third rail' of European Integration without ever committing to it absolutely, the EU has been weakened financially by the loss of the UK's input, though in some areas, such as financial services, trading that used to be done in London is now done in Amsterdam. And though there has not been a meltdown in London, financial services businesses have been relocating to Amsterdam, Paris and Milan, thus-
Brexit News: Bankers Leaving London for Milan in Italy - Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-21/milan-luxury-real-estate-booms-as-bankers-leave-london-for-italy)

It is also the case that because of the damage it has caused, those in the EU who were tempted by Exit have had to admit that in the EU's present form, it would be a bad choice -again, in Italy where there was a small 'ItalExit' movement.

Now consider the other change: the third most important member of the EU now is Poland. With its border with the Ukraine and its hosting so many refugees from the war, Poland has stepped up, as it were, to become more trusted now than it was five years ago. Moreover, as recently announced, Wroclaw is to be the focus of Intel's new generation of chips, a move designed to wean the world off Asian dominance in the industry. But also a sign of how the Poles managed to negotiate such a good deal when Intel said it was committed to Germany, thus-

"A team from an agency promoting the development of Wroclaw put together a presentation highlighting its quality of life, family facilities, schools, bike lanes, swimming pools and economic and demographic data.
Intel executives were also impressed by Wroclaw being home to Poland's American football and basketball champions."
How Poland snagged Intel's multi-billion dollar investment | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/technology/how-poland-snagged-intels-multi-billion-dollar-investment-2023-06-22/)

Some people, like Nigel Farage, believed -and hoped- that Brexit would be so successful and desirable, it would lead to the break-up or even the dissolution of the EU. The opposite has happened, just as NATO has entered a new era of expansion rather than contraction. What this suggests is that People, States and Markets prefer to be together than apart.

It is as fundamental a rejection of the idea of Brexit as can be found, though it leaves the UK out in the cold, on its own, wishing it had not made such a foolish mistake.

[Fitzcarraldo]

But the UK voted for it twice, right?

[Stavros]

No, there was just the one Referendum in 2016. Boris Johnson tried to make the 2019 General Election about Brexit, with his slogan 'Get Brexit Done' but there were other issues in play, not least the dismal public profile of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, whose faults, admittedly, were magnified and exaggerated by the Murdoch press and other hostiles.

[obslam]

But the UK voted for it twice, right?

They voted in once, and out once.

Regarding the out, most don't regret it but there are a very noisy mini-minority who won't face reality and insist on keeping crying about it. For the vast majority it's made virtually no difference to their lives, and don't let the numpties try and persuade you otherwise.

[Fitzcarraldo]

They voted in once, and out once.

Regarding the out, most don't regret it but there are a very noisy mini-minority who won't face reality and insist on keeping crying about it. For the vast majority it's made virtually no difference to their lives, and don't let the numpties try and persuade you otherwise.

If it made no difference, then why bother to leave?

[filghy2]

Regarding the out, most don't regret it but there are a very noisy mini-minority who won't face reality and insist on keeping crying about it. For the vast majority it's made virtually no difference to their lives, and don't let the numpties try and persuade you otherwise.

And your evidence for this is what? Strangely, when I google 'Brexit polls' I get lots of reports on different polls saying most people in the UK now think it was a bad idea.

I think things are bad when the best argument Brexiters can put forward is that it hasn't been as disastrous as some people predicted.

[filghy2]

If Brexit has had no negative impact then how do you explain why the UK economy has been performing worse than other countries? For instance, UK GDP is still below it's level at the end of 2019.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/

[Stavros]

If Brexit has had no negative impact then how do you explain why the UK economy has been performing worse than other countries? For instance, UK GDP is still below it's level at the end of 2019.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/

The man in question has no grasp on the reality of Brexit because he doesn't much care about it, even though he works in a sector that has seen thousands of jobs and billions of dollars worth of trading disappear, to which his response is a shrug of the shoulders because his portion is secure, and that's all that matters. The moaning he refers to is a very real complaint about the decline in the standard of living, the loss of trade, the loss of revenue, the increase for small to medium sized companies of the paperwork they have to deal with to such an extent they have either gone bust or moved to the EU while 'rules of origin' components of the trade deal 'negotiated' by Boris Johnson and Lord Frost may yet become an obstacle to the future of British industry.

Meanwhile, no comment on the bulk of my original post, which was about Poland's ascendancy in the EU, and the impact Brexit has had on those in the EU who thought it was a good idea, and now see what a calamity it was, with a real impact on their own politics -eg, Le Pen in France. obslam doesn't read my posts, and I don't know if he has any interest in Poland or the EU.

[Stavros]

They voted in once, and out once.

Regarding the out, most don't regret it but there are a very noisy mini-minority who won't face reality and insist on keeping crying about it. For the vast majority it's made virtually no difference to their lives, and don't let the numpties try and persuade you otherwise.

The people of the UK never voted to join the European Economic Community -the Conservative Manifesto in 1970 did say if elected the new Govt would open negotiations on joining, and it did, but went ahead to conclude an agreement that was not at the time endorsed by any Referendum.

When Harold Wilson returned to power in 1974, he dealt with the Labour Party's internal disagreement with the UK's membership of the 'Common Market' -and in Labour, it was the Left, led by Tony Benn who wanted to Leave (with a young Jeremy Corbyn cheering him on from the margins)- by ordering a Referendum in 1975 to endorse the UK's existing membership, thus the question put to the people in 1975 was "Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?". I voted yes.

I am not the only person in the UK who has had my freedom of movement taken away. For some people wo have married EU citizens the 'new arrangements' have been either a nuisance or a nightmare, with families having to choose between the UK and an EU state. I now go to Germany twice a year because friends who are part German part British chose Germany.

As for Eurostar, well we used to get on a train in London, get off in Paris, and there was just a basic 'show passport' at one end. Now the stations have to stamp passports and along with the Covid disaster, the service is in decline as costs mount and traffic numbers are down. The days when you could get a return to Paris for less than £100 are gone; the onward links to Amsterdam and the French Riviera are either gone or never materialized -ditto extending Eurostar to the UK's North.

Brexit: more bureaucracy, higher costs, falling revenues. If that's not failure, what is?

[obslam]

If it made no difference, then why bother to leave?

It made no virtual difference now or then. Long-term could be different.

Personally I wanted out because I wanted no place in the social experiment that numpty Major committed us to with his weak pushing through of the Maastricht Treaty, when he should have stood up for the actual and original aims of the EEC/EU.

[Stavros]

It made no virtual difference now or then. Long-term could be different.

Personally I wanted out because I wanted no place in the social experiment that numpty Major committed us to with his weak pushing through of the Maastricht Treaty, when he should have stood up for the actual and original aims of the EEC/EU.

The man is either ignorant, or enjoys distorting history. From the Treaty of Rome in 1957 through to the Lisbon Treaty of 2007, these words have been in the first sentence : Ever Closer Union. These three words define the long-term project that was at the root of the movement that began long before the actuality of the Iron, Coal and and Steel Community of 1951 (Community- get it?). These three words are the red rag to the anti-EU bull whether the horns were on the head of Socialist Tony Benn, or Conservative Margaret Thatcher.

He needs to admit that when Edward Heath took the UK into the Common Marker, what he wanted, and what timid Conservatives and Little England Socialists like Benn grudgingly accepted was a Trading Relationship. They never signed up to the Federalism at the heart of the EU's long term ambition. This half-in, half-out attitude was one reason why the UK never made a total commitment to European Unity. In 1997 Tony Blair said he wanted the UK to be at 'the heart of Europe', but when 9/11 came along, he ditched Europe to tie the UK to the heels of the US in that age-old preference for the Atlantic Relationship as the UK's primary alliance. It made sense to Churchill because he was half-American, but it meant that in spite of the role the UK played in the legal evolution of the EU, the role played by Margaret Thatcher in the creation of the Single Market, the British public never felt truly part of the European project, 'we' were never going to be part of that 'Ever Closer Union'.

As for Brexit making no 'virtual difference' -this is drivel. How many families have had to choose between living in the UK or the EU? How many businesses have given up because of the avalanche of red tape, or had to adapt by sacking people, or hiring even more and passing all the costs onto their customers? How about the fact that the UK is poorer than it was, that its economy is performing poorly and so on?

And then there is the issue of Race...another aspect of Brexit few people want to discuss. Not everyone who voted Leave was a Racist, but most Racists voted Leave.

[filghy2]

Looks like more of those whiners who refuse to face the reality makes no difference.
"New Brexit checks will make food price inflation even worse, warns industry"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-food-prices-inflation-supermarkets-b2364313.html

[Stavros]

Looks like more of those whiners who refuse to face the reality makes no difference.
"New Brexit checks will make food price inflation even worse, warns industry"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-food-prices-inflation-supermarkets-b2364313.html

Filghy2 I think by now you will be aware that when reality does not match the claims made, it is reality that is at fault. Trump loses election, and does not lose -the result was rigged, and no amount of evidence to the contrary will change that view.

Boris Johnson remains convinced Brexit was the right decision, and has brought benefits to the UK. No amount of evidence to the contrary affects his argument, because it is not admitted as evidence just as he continues to insist he did nothing wrong during the Covid pandemic regardless of how many photos and videos show him breaking his own rules. Economic decline is not the fault of Brexit, but something else, just as our correspondent in HungAngels because he has not been affected by Brexit personally, therefore cannot see what the problem is. At least he has not complained that if Brexit failed, it was because it was sabotaged by Parliament and the Civil Service.

One of the by-products of Brexit has been the way in which the Conservatives (as opposed to those in Labour who voted Leave), now reject Margaret Thatcher as one of the key architects of the Single Market. Boris Johnson when introducing a policy on Social Care in effect said it was an attempt to succeed where over 40 years others -which must include Maggie- had failed. Mike Pence has complained that Republicans in the US no longer support Free Markets, as Ronald Reagan did. He did not mention Trump, but there is little doubt that Trump does not believe in Free Markets, from his colossal subsidies to US farmers following his catastrophic trade failure with China, to his own dependence on tax payers as a source of the capital for his building projects. Right now he continues to claim to be a Billionaire, while begging taxpayers for money to pay his lawyers, some of the money for them coming from the SuperPAC he set up for his Presidential bid.

The freedoms and the values that Brexit was intended to bring to the UK are a mirage, like free markets in the US. In this desert of the mind, no amount of water will wash away the dirt. Perhaps it isn't water at all, but the tears of the Deep State.

[peejaye]

They voted in once, and out once.

Regarding the out, most don't regret it but there are a very noisy mini-minority who won't face reality and insist on keeping crying about it. For the vast majority it's made virtually no difference to their lives, and don't let the numpties try and persuade you otherwise.

He's a little man with a huge ego, they were defeated by the people and can't accept it. Look at that C**T Alastair Campbell, have you ever seen anything like it? STOP putting the UK down, you're a passive liar, you people want the UK to fail but it won't.
I spend a lot of time in the UK during summer, it's a great place, my wife loves it too, she's into English history, it's just the same now as it was before, supermarkets are a little more expensive, everyone I know believes in Brexit, wait till Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson team up to stop Labour getting in, LOL
Can't wait, watch this space. I love GBNews by the way, what a breath of fresh air, lots of positive Brexit news there, don't waste your time here Obslam

[Stavros]

He's a little man with a huge ego, they were defeated by the people and can't accept it. Look at that C**T Alastair Campbell, have you ever seen anything like it? STOP putting the UK down, you're a passive liar, you people want the UK to fail but it won't.
I spend a lot of time in the UK during summer, it's a great place, my wife loves it too, she's into English history, it's just the same now as it was before, supermarkets are a little more expensive, everyone I know believes in Brexit, wait till Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson team up to stop Labour getting in, LOL
Can't wait, watch this space. I love GBNews by the way, what a breath of fresh air, lots of positive Brexit news there, don't waste your time here Obslam

If you spent more time here, Peejaye you might be aware of the polls that register deep disillusion with Brexit, just as you know the margin of victory in 2016 was too small to be legitimate in anything other than mathematical terms.

If you are going to compare egos, you might ask if a country as small as this one can match Boris Johnson with Nigel Farage, just as you don't seem to be aware of the crisis in the Conservative Party that has overtaken it since 2016 -five Prime Ministers in 7 years, god knows how many Chancellors, Foreign Secs, and so on. Johnson expelling Tories from the Tory party, the Tory party expelling Johnson, the Covid enquiry exposing the incompetence of Tory Govt, etc etc.

So ok, shrug your shoulders and pretend not much has gone wrong here, and live a better life in Colombia, where I believe you are happier than you were in the UK, and I am pleased to hear that by the way. And my guess is that there are members of HA who wish they were also living in Colombia and we all know why!

[peejaye]

This will cheer you up Stavros;

https://www.gbnews.com/news/nigel-farage-best-news-presenter-2023-tric-awards

Even beat your mates at the BBC and bigger mates at Channel 4
Not your day is it.... voted for by "The People"

[Stavros]

Thank you for giving me some amusement on this grey day in Bardland. I loathe Nigel Farage, but I too have watched him on GB News, and he is an articulate man. I just don't share his perspectives or his politics. I would not silence him, and I don't think he is that hard to combat with solid arguments, of the kind he doesn't have. I cannot forget his pathetic argument on Brexit that the Germans will still want to sell us 750,000 vehicles a year so nothing to fear, when the Germans were selling more than 20 million to China, meaning: which market is more important to the Germans, China or the UK?

As for viewing figures, let's put it this way -more than 3 million for the Six O'Clock News on BBC 1; Farage getting around 83,000, both beaten by Coronation Street, which I guess you don't get in Colombia, though I am sure your Mum will tape them for you if you get withdrawal symptoms.

Which prompts a different question outside the thread -do Colombian soap operas have any Transgender characters, played by Transgendered actors?

[obslam]

STOP putting the UK down, you're a passive liar, you people want the UK to fail but it won't.

Is this directed at me, as you quoted me?

Or at the numpty who I can't see as I blocked his endless, childish conversations with himself?

I'm not putting the UK down. It's a great place to live as, I am sure, are many other places too.

[peejaye]

No Obslam, sorry for any confusion, I see why it looked like that, it was intended for the Author ;)

[Stavros]

Is this directed at me, as you quoted me?

Or at the numpty who I can't see as I blocked his endless, childish conversations with himself?

I'm not putting the UK down. It's a great place to live as, I am sure, are many other places too.

You can read my posts if you access HA without logging in, though there are limited number of posts you can read. I think you probably do, but for me the problem is that you don't really debate Brexit, just make statements that satisfy your position. You have nothing to say on the fact that the most economically successful part of the UK is Northern Ireland which, for practical reasons, remains part of the EU's Single Market and Customs Union. You might want to ask why, but then again, you might not as it doesn't fit your distorted narrative. You know perfectly well how many businesses have been negatively affected by Brexit, just as you have seen in your own industry jobs go to Amsterdam, Paris and Milan taking billions of dollars worth of trade with them, just admit you don't care about it, just as you don't care how many families have been forced out of the country, the freedom of movement we once enjoyed now limited.

As for talking to myself, I have started more threads since I joined HA than you, given you have not started one in 16 years, and if you had better access, you would also see the multiple replies and conversations I have created and contributed to, but there is no law that says you must read and reply to posts.

Brexit and the people who support it have dragged this country into the international gutter, choosing sewage over sense, preferring to yell like cats from the margins rather than take responsible actions as a Global citizen. Day after day in the Mail and the Telegraph they ridicule this country and the people who live in it, like Trump and De Santis, bleating about 'woke' this and 'woke' that, referring to the Government and Civil Service as a 'blob' because they cannot summon up any words from the English language that support their lost cause, relying instead, like loser Trump, on juvenile abuse. We are lumbered with this motley collection of idiots, racists and pretend Conservatives who don't want to conserve anything, but change everything as if the changes they forced on us so far are not demonstrably destructive.

[obslam]

No Obslam, sorry for any confusion, I see why it looked like that, it was intended for the Author ;)

No worries. Actually I think I've blocked two of them. Thankfully I don't have see the utter nonsense they type. You have to feel sorry for them as they are very sad and little people in a big world, who could not see anything you place right in front of them.

[Stavros]

No worries. Actually I think I've blocked two of them. Thankfully I don't have see the utter nonsense they type. You have to feel sorry for them as they are very sad and little people in a big world, who could not see anything you place right in front of them.

"...they are very sad and little people in a big world, who could not see anything you place right in front of them."

What has happened in front if me, and him, and everyone else in the UK since the Brexit vote in 2016 seven years ago:

2 General Elections
5 Prime Ministers
5 Chancellors of the Exchequer
6 Foreign Secretaries
7 Home Secretaries
8 Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland
8 Secretaries of State for Health and Social Care

In addition to which there have been three leaders of the Labour Party, and mass resignations and expulsions from the Conservative Party, and the collapse of UKIP into political oblivion.

As for Northern Ireland -no executive in operation, the Province still part of the European Unions Single Market and Customs Union.

I guess for some people they see these things, hear about them, read about them, and don't think them unusual or even relevant.

Should have gone to Specsavers?

[peejaye]

You forgot to mention "The weather" :p

[Stavros]

Says the man who voted with his feet, and left Brexit Britain for Colombia. Wise choice, perhaps for you.

At least it suggests you don't give a monkey's about the UK, in which case your views of Brexit, and the impact it has had on the UK and on the EU -the theme of this thread- can be judged to be 'irrelevant' -would you agree?

[Stavros]

Spare a thought or two for the former leader of UKIP whose Leave.EU was a prominent actor in the Brexit Referendum Campaign in 2016. Nigel Farage is now claiming that he has had his bank account with Coutts (bankers to the Royal Family) shut down without any explanation, but which to him is 'revenge' by the 'Anti Brexit Establishment', whatever that is.

Or could it be that the banking fraternity have been so alarmed by claims that Farage has -or had- links to Putin's Russia that they no longer want his dosh? At one time, if not still today, the FBI was said to consider Farage a 'person of interest' with allegations, so far not proven, that the Clinton Emails that the Russians gave to Wikileaks were on a USB stick that Farage collected from the London Embassy which he then have to Julian Assange.

We may never know the truth of this, though it is curious that Trump begged the Russians to help him in July 2016 when he also knew the USA was under attack from Russia, confirming his status as a traitor, and Assange, possibly with Farage in the shadows, obliged. One wonders if Coutts has any links to British Intelligence, as in, gosh I really don't know about that. What we do know is that you need at least a Million Quid to open a bank account with Coutts, and Farage boasted once he made more than a million from the EU he hated so much, but whose money he loved, and loved, and loved.

If you would like to open an account with Coutts, please fill in this form-

Private form (coutts.com) (https://www.coutts.com/become-a-client/private-form.html)

[Stavros]

Now the irony: Farage made over a million as a Member of the European Parliament, and now it turns out he lost his account at Coutts because he no longer makes that kind of money the Bank requires. So, had the UK remained in the EU, Farage would have kept his nose stuck deep as possible in the Trough, and not have been so humiliated.

Another Brexit casualty!

Nigel Farage’s Coutts bank account closed due to lack of funds | Nigel Farage | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/04/nigel-farage-coutts-bank-account-closed-lack-of-funds)

[peejaye]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/20/by-elections-latest-news-junior-doctors-strike-nigel-farage/

[Stavros]

Who cares about a shameless liar like Farage? Are the decisions on accounts made by a private business now to be submitted to the Conservative Govt for their approval? Is that what ‘Take Back Control’ really means: the State in control of everything, no private enterprise free of interference?

[Fitzcarraldo]

Fast-track visa scheme for prize-winning researchers has only had three takers:
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-britains-got-no-talent-visa-scheme-gets-just-three-applicants/

[Stavros]

Fast-track visa scheme for prize-winning researchers has only had three takers:
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-britains-got-no-talent-visa-scheme-gets-just-three-applicants/

Indeed, but as I am sure you know, given that you are following these developments closely, the UK Govt has enabled those UK based academics involved in the €95.5 bn Horizon 2020 to remain in the network of projects that run to 2027. So you see, just as Northern Ireland remains in the EU Customs Union, some parts of the UK also remain in the EU although initially the academic links were threatened.
UK participation in Horizon Europe | Research and Innovation Services - UCL – University College London (https://www.ucl.ac.uk/research-innovation-services/award-services/erio/uk-participation-horizon-europe#:~:text=Yes%2C%20UK%20participants%20in%20H orizon,of%20individual%20Horizon%202020%20projects .)

That said, a former colleague of mine not long after the Brexit referendum decamped to Germany with a well-funded project, never to return.

The report you cite is merely another of the Brexit Govt's futile attempts to establish the UK as a Global Leader, with miniscule amounts of cash 'guaranteed'. Not only do most Brits now regret leaving the EU, a majority now want another referendum on membership of the EU albeit in the next 10 years.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Indeed, but as I am sure you know, given that you are following these developments closely, the UK Govt has enabled those UK based academics involved in the €95.5 bn Horizon 2020 to remain in the network of projects that run to 2027. So you see, just as Northern Ireland remains in the EU Customs Union, some parts of the UK also remain in the EU although initially the academic links were threatened.
UK participation in Horizon Europe | Research and Innovation Services - UCL – University College London (https://www.ucl.ac.uk/research-innovation-services/award-services/erio/uk-participation-horizon-europe#:~:text=Yes%2C%20UK%20participants%20in%20H orizon,of%20individual%20Horizon%202020%20projects .)

That said, a former colleague of mine not long after the Brexit referendum decamped to Germany with a well-funded project, never to return.

The report you cite is merely another of the Brexit Govt's futile attempts to establish the UK as a Global Leader, with miniscule amounts of cash 'guaranteed'. Not only do most Brits now regret leaving the EU, a majority now want another referendum on membership of the EU albeit in the next 10 years.

Not following them closely at all. This is the first I've heard of it. The way I read the article, it is damning the program for only producing three applicants since its inception.

[obslam]

Fast-track visa scheme for prize-winning researchers has only had three takers:
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-britains-got-no-talent-visa-scheme-gets-just-three-applicants/

Thanks, though it's a very European-centred article written by a very Euro-centred journalist for a very Euro-centred minority publication. You could just as easily spin it as a success as a failure, not to mention that many of these types of people qualify for visas in other way or, indeed, don't actually need a visa.

It's such nonsense and the like from these sorts of publications that perpetuate the myth that Brexit is any real issue in the real world. It simply isn't. Sure, there's a few losers looking for excuses, just as there are winners - but Brexit or rejoining the EU in some way is rarely discussed now and there is certainly no widespread desire to rejoin anyway, numpties who can't let the fact go that a clear majority voted to leave notwithstanding of course.

[Stavros]

Not following them closely at all. This is the first I've heard of it. The way I read the article, it is damning the program for only producing three applicants since its inception.

The key points are that few if any Conservatives expected Leave to win the Referendum in 2016, so no forward planning was made if that was the result, and since then the Conservartive Govt has been wracked by a level of party division and outright incompetence that, if polls are to be believed, will wipe out their majority if Rishi Sunak hangs on before having to call a General Election in 2024.

The irony of the academic situation is that while some have left for the EU, those who held on were able to convince the Govt that having entered into the Horizon 2020 partnership, it made no sense to withdraw the UK from it, and it thus became part of various negotiations with the EU that have retained it. It doesn't make headlines, as to some extent Northern Ireland does, but it does demonstrate in practical terms what a flop leaving the EU has been. Most of the trade agreements signed since the Referendum were renewals of existing EU-derived agreements, though they no longer give partners access to the Single Market of the EU. There has been no trade agreement with the US, which would probably be an unfair agreement anyway, and the Pacific market agreement that was reached earlier this year is valued far, far below what the UK-EU trade was before the Referendum.

As for the comment by Oblsam that "Brexit or rejoining the EU in some way is rarely discussed now and there is certainly no widespread desire to rejoin anyway,", this is verifiable rubbish, a comment made by someone who simply doesn't care about the issue, and can't believe anyone else does.

Thus:

"With public opinion having turned against Brexit, a new YouGov survey finds that most Britons would now vote to Remain were the EU referendum being held again, and likewise would vote to rejoin the EU if such a vote were being called."
Britons would vote to rejoin the EU | YouGov (https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2023/07/18/britons-would-vote-rejoin-eu)

[Stavros]

So, having been forced to leave the Horizon programme because of Brexit, the UK Govt has negotiated a return to it. All that time and money to achieve something that we already had: but with additional costs in terms of the loss of research funding and collaboration that took place.

Recognition that in this sector, Brexit was a mistake, and Brexit has been reversed. It can be done. And all that stuff about Horizon including more countries outside the EU, well that was one of the benefits of the UK being in the EU as well as the Horizon project, attracting countries outside the EU who wanted to share what the EU and the UK had at the same time.

Rather like trade. We need them. They need us.

(1) Sunak sidesteps question over whether Horizon deal will lead to further collaboration with EU – UK politics live (theguardian.com) (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/sep/07/rishi-sunak-uk-europe-horizon-erasmus-conservatives-labour-uk-politics-latest)

[Stavros]

What to make of the latest revelation, that the best deal we could have had from the EU was never intended to be anything other than a temporary fix, that the man negotiating on behalf of the UK was a bare-faced liar at every stage of the process, encouraged by Boris Johnson as Prime Minister to tell as many lies as needed to get a signature on peace of paper, something after the lamentable farce of Theresa May losing every vote in the House of Commons, Johnson said only he could secure.

Some might say well all politicians are liars, but this is Brexit in action, a whole new layer of lies, deception, and complete disregard for democracy, truth, freedom -all those things we are supposed to value. Ok, so Johnson is gone, but Lord Frost remains in the House of Lords where he can meddle with politics until he retires or dies.

The lesson of Brexit: when a monumental failure of policy makes its demands, tell lies, lies, and nothing but lies, in the hope the people won't notice, or care. Is this not the end of politics? Why should any Govt sit across the table from a member of His Majesty's Government if they never know if what they are negotiating is of any value?

"Lord Frost has said that, when he and Boris Johnson negotiated the Northern Ireland protocol ahead of Brexit, they “always hoped” it would eventually collapse."
Boris Johnson government ‘always hoped’ Northern Ireland protocol would collapse – UK politics live (theguardian.com) (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/sep/12/angela-rayner-rishi-sunak-tory-labour-keir-starmer-tuc-latest-politics-updates-live)