2024 USA Election: Wishin' and Hopin'

[Stavros]

So it is not the record, but the player that is the problem. Will both DJs still be spinning come November? Is it still too late to change?

Biden’s record on the economy is good but voters don’t feel it. Character, not policy, is key to victory | Robert Reich | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/22/biden-trump-record-election)

[Stavros]

Not sure who this woman is, I see her stuff on the yahoo site when I have logged out of my email account. This video on Arizona points to the people, if not the means, whereby Trump might be guaranteed victory in Arizona no matter who the people vote for. Suggests the 'Republican Party' is as unhinged as its Dear Leader.

Maddow: GOP bears Big Lie's deep scars as Trump dances to avoid accountability - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cGTZ1ZKiAI)

[Stavros]

Don't know much about him, but isn't he, ahem, too intelligent to be No 2? Or are his fingers that brown?

There’s a new frontrunner on Trump’s VP shortlist. And it’s not who you’d think (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/frontrunner-trump-vp-shortlist-not-145352239.html)

[Stavros]

Or could it be the second coming of 'St Peter' -why just have one convicted criminal in the White House when you can have two?

Trump would ‘absolutely’ rehire Peter Navarro despite prison sentence | Donald Trump | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/25/peter-navarro-donald-trump-rehire)

[MrFanti]

I love it when White people speak up for us Blacks which simultaneously is insulting because what they're really saying is that we're too stupid or too weak to think for ourselves....
I.E. "Move along, we'll take from here FOR you".....

IMHO, Charlamagne Tha God has it right: "Both candidates are trash"......
(Oops, Charlamagne is Black therefore he must be too stupid like the rest of us)

[filghy2]

Looks like Trump hasn't exactly been winning over the Libertarian crowd: "Trump furiously jeered as he taunts Libertarians for winning ‘3%’ in elections at their convention." Why would a supposedly independent party invite a major party's candidate to address their convention?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-libertarian-party-speech-convention-b2551645.html

[filghy2]

This article provides relevant background on attempts by MAGA-leaning extremists to take over the Libertarian Party. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/04/the-spectacular-implosion-of-the-libertarian-party/

I think libertarianism is a simplistic philosophy that has little useful to say about the world's major problems, but if you are going to subscribe to it you should be consistent. It's hardly libertarian to want freedom for yourself while supporting authoritarian solutions against others you don't like.

[Stavros]

This article provides relevant background on attempts by MAGA-leaning extremists to take over the Libertarian Party. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/04/the-spectacular-implosion-of-the-libertarian-party/

I think libertarianism is a simplistic philosophy that has little useful to say about the world's major problems, but if you are going to subscribe to it you should be consistent. It's hardly libertarian to want freedom for yourself while supporting authoritarian solutions against others you don't like.

Thanks for the link, but the contradictions make the 'Libertarian Party' a contradiction in terms, like much of their pseudo-philosophy -if they are non-state anarchists, it makes no sense to both have a political party which has rules and membership, and also participate in a system they don't believe in. Rothbard, Hoppe and people like that are no different from Murdoch -they think Markets know better than Governments, and that the former should replace the latter. But while they are opposed to the State they don't seem to be so hostile to the concept of the Nation (von Mises aside, perhaps) while their attitude to race seems to be shaped more by the experience of American history than the history of states and markets.

Trump was booed at their conference, presumably more footage of this will emerge later. They are an irrelevance right now, and that's their problem.

[Stavros]

I love it when White people speak up for us Blacks which simultaneously is insulting because what they're really saying is that we're too stupid or too weak to think for ourselves....
I.E. "Move along, we'll take from here FOR you".....

IMHO, Charlamagne Tha God has it right: "Both candidates are trash"......
(Oops, Charlamagne is Black therefore he must be too stupid like the rest of us)

a) Whoever this God person might be, he does sound like an idiot, but I doubt it is because it is due to the colour of his skin, more likely the absence of intelligence.

b) I think you dislike White people talking at you, not for you. But you might also tell us if you are jazzed and energized by Trump's negroes -are they 'House Negroes' or 'Field Negroes' ?-Tim Scott, and Byron Donalds. What do you think Trump, a pathological racist who loathes Black people, is doing when he recruits them and any rapper with a rap to his cause? After all, this is the man who built New York City -a city with thousands or buildings and hundred of skyscrapers, of which Trump built two, and probably not with Black construction workers. Lying is what counts, because if you tell a lie enough times, people will believe it.

From what I have seen and heard, and in the UK that is not as much as you, there are plenty of intelligent, articulate Black Americans in politics who are worthy of both respect, and votes. Maybe best to focus on them rather than a parade of losers and nutjobs who reinforce prejudice when they would do better to end it.

[Stavros]

Start at 3.38.20

LIVE REPLAY: President Trump Addresses Libertarian National Convention in D.C. - 5/25/24 (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhF1DdVY4cA)

[Stavros]

The man is desperate, and plain ignorant.
Tim Scott on Trump Getting Booed by Libertarians: He’s So Popular! (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/tim-scott-trump-getting-booed-142240461.html)

One wonders if he ever crosses the state line to see how the economy is doing under 'the worst President in American history'...

"...after years of careful planning, Chatham County has started to change.The new Wolfspeed factory (https://apnews.com/article/biden-technology-raleigh-durham-climate-and-environment-1d2601ef2cc28abb9c7a592a1c2c0d71) — six football fields long — overlooks I-64 and will soon produce advanced wafers for computer chips. Automaker Vinfast (https://apnews.com/article/vietnam-vinfast-ev-climate-auto-b959572109e66363068c1c6effb85ea3) is scheduled to open a factory as well. Both projects stem in large part from incentives that Biden signed into law.

Developers, including the Walt Disney Corp (https://www.storylivingbydisney.com/asteria/)., plan to build several thousand new homes.
“When the right opportunity came along, we were there and we were ready,” said Greg Lewis, who owns the steakhouse. “It is growth, growth, growth.”".
In one North Carolina county, it's 'growth, growth, growth.' But will Biden reap the benefit? (yahoo.com) (https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/one-north-carolina-county-growth-115330849.html)

[fred41]

b) I think you dislike White people talking at you, not for you. But you might also tell us if you are jazzed and energized by Trump's negroes -are they 'House Negroes' or 'Field Negroes' ?-Tim Scott, and Byron Donalds. What do you think Trump, a pathological racist who loathes Black people, is doing when he recruits them and any rapper with a rap to his cause? After all, this is the man who built New York City -a city with thousands or buildings and hundred of skyscrapers, of which Trump built two, and probably not with Black construction workers. Lying is what counts, because if you tell a lie enough times, people will believe it.


Who are you quoting regarding the ‘House Negroes’ or ‘Field Negroes’ labels? It doesn’t say in your comment.

[Luke Warm]

I love it when White people speak up for us Blacks which simultaneously is insulting because what they're really saying is that we're too stupid or too weak to think for ourselves....
I.E. "Move along, we'll take from here FOR you".....

IMHO, Charlamagne Tha God has it right: "Both candidates are trash"......
(Oops, Charlamagne is Black therefore he must be too stupid like the rest of us)

Biden has appointed more black judges to the federal judiciary than any president in history. If the question is “what has Biden done for black people?” you can add that to the list. With a black judge, when black people appear in court - whether they are the plaintiff or the defendant- it’s much less likely that racism will be a factor in the judge’s decisions. Biden just did another round of student loan forgiveness- an issue that disproportionately affects black students (when your family isn’t rich, you take out student loans).

What are some of Charlamagne’s complaints about Biden? Or what are some of your complaints about Biden? What makes him “trash”? What are some issues you wish Biden would address (but hasn’t)?

[KnightHawk 2.0]

The man is desperate, and plain ignorant.
Tim Scott on Trump Getting Booed by Libertarians: He’s So Popular! (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/tim-scott-trump-getting-booed-142240461.html)

One wonders if he ever crosses the state line to see how the economy is doing under 'the worst President in American history'...

"...after years of careful planning, Chatham County has started to change.The new Wolfspeed factory (https://apnews.com/article/biden-technology-raleigh-durham-climate-and-environment-1d2601ef2cc28abb9c7a592a1c2c0d71) — six football fields long — overlooks I-64 and will soon produce advanced wafers for computer chips. Automaker Vinfast (https://apnews.com/article/vietnam-vinfast-ev-climate-auto-b959572109e66363068c1c6effb85ea3) is scheduled to open a factory as well. Both projects stem in large part from incentives that Biden signed into law.

Developers, including the Walt Disney Corp (https://www.storylivingbydisney.com/asteria/)., plan to build several thousand new homes.
“When the right opportunity came along, we were there and we were ready,” said Greg Lewis, who owns the steakhouse. “It is growth, growth, growth.”".
In one North Carolina county, it's 'growth, growth, growth.' But will Biden reap the benefit? (yahoo.com) (https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/one-north-carolina-county-growth-115330849.html)
Tim-Baldheaded Asskisser-Scott very delusional and needs to keep his idiotic comments to himself. His unhinged leader maybe popular among the MAGA Base,however he isn't so popular everywhere.

[Stavros]

Who are you quoting regarding the ‘House Negroes’ or ‘Field Negroes’ labels? It doesn’t say in your comment.

It was not a quote from a verifiable source. I was using the terms, sarcastically I admit, in an 'as if' context, the terms having been used in other contexts, such as in films, though in one case with one of the words I used replaced by something much more offensive. One should really use the " mark for actual quotes though these days the rules are not always applied, hence the confusion. Hope that is clear.

[filghy2]

I love it when White people speak up for us Blacks which simultaneously is insulting because what they're really saying is that we're too stupid or too weak to think for ourselves....
I.E. "Move along, we'll take from here FOR you".....

Not sure why white and black need to be capitalised, but what I'd like to know is:
Was Abraham Lincoln insulting black people when he signed the Emancipation Proclamation?
Was the Supreme Court insulting black people when it ruled against segration in Brown vs Board of Education?
Was the Johnson administration insulting black people when it enacted civil rights legislation?
Were all the white liberals who took part in the civil rights movement insulting black people?
Would it have been better if all these white people had just stayed out and left black people to look after themselves?

Yes, I know you are not going to answer. All we ever get from you is vague insinuations, never any solutions.

[filghy2]

Biden has appointed more black judges to the federal judiciary than any president in history. If the question is “what has Biden done for black people?” you can add that to the list.

Mr Fanti reminds me of the Monty Python scene 'What have the Romans ever done for us?'. What have liberals ever done for black people apart from emancipation, ending segregation, civil rights legislation, affirmative action, increasing assistance for needy families, increasing numbers of black representatives and judges, etc, etc?

Yes, many of these things should have been done earlier, but it's still perverse to be more critical of the people who've generally been supportive than those who have been opposed.

[blackchubby38]

a) Whoever this God person might be, he does sound like an idiot, but I doubt it is because it is due to the colour of his skin, more likely the absence of intelligence.

b) I think you dislike White people talking at you, not for you. But you might also tell us if you are jazzed and energized by Trump's negroes -are they 'House Negroes' or 'Field Negroes' ?-Tim Scott, and Byron Donalds. What do you think Trump, a pathological racist who loathes Black people, is doing when he recruits them and any rapper with a rap to his cause? After all, this is the man who built New York City -a city with thousands or buildings and hundred of skyscrapers, of which Trump built two, and probably not with Black construction workers. Lying is what counts, because if you tell a lie enough times, people will believe it.

From what I have seen and heard, and in the UK that is not as much as you, there are plenty of intelligent, articulate Black Americans in politics who are worthy of both respect, and votes. Maybe best to focus on them rather than a parade of losers and nutjobs who reinforce prejudice when they would do better to end it.

I know you posed this question to Mr. Fanti, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in.

While I don't see eye to eye with either Tim Scott or Byron Donalds, they're neither a "House Negro or a "Field Negro". Just because they have an (R) next to to their name and are towing the Trump Republican party line, doesn't make them any less of a black person than the Democrats who do the same for President Biden.

As for why recruits Scott, Donalds, and rappers to his cause, maybe its because his campaign team is paying attention to the polls. Like this one:

"One poll from the New York Times/Siena College/Philadelphia Inquirer, released earlier this month, found Biden leading Trump among Black voters, 63 percent to 23 percent. This is a significant decrease from the 87 percent of Black voters who voted for Biden in 2020."

Why else would the Trump campaign hold a rally in a Democratic county in a blue state he has no chance of winning in November. Maybe they feel there are inroads to make with Black and Latino voters. The latter which make up a majority of the population in that part of the Bronx.

As for Trump being a pathological racist who loathes Black people. I have always believed that I rather have a racist wear their heart on their sleeve, so I know where they're coming from. Instead of someone being subtlety racist and in moments of disagreement has the potential to show their true colors.

[filghy2]

As for Trump being a pathological racist who loathes Black people. I have always believed that I rather have a racist wear their heart on their sleeve, so I know where they're coming from. Instead of someone being subtlety racist and in moments of disagreement has the potential to show their true colors.

I'm not sure it makes any sense to say that racists are less bad if they are open about it. How many Jewish people would say "the Nazis weren't so bad because at least they were open about wanting to exterminate us"?

It's doubly strange to apply this argument to Trump, who always denies he's racist. This is a man who has claimed numerous times to be the least racist person there is!

[Stavros]

I know you posed this question to Mr. Fanti, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in.

While I don't see eye to eye with either Tim Scott or Byron Donalds, they're neither a "House Negro or a "Field Negro". Just because they have an (R) next to to their name and are towing the Trump Republican party line, doesn't make them any less of a black person than the Democrats who do the same for President Biden.

As for why recruits Scott, Donalds, and rappers to his cause, maybe its because his campaign team is paying attention to the polls. Like this one:

"One poll from the New York Times/Siena College/Philadelphia Inquirer, released earlier this month, found Biden leading Trump among Black voters, 63 percent to 23 percent. This is a significant decrease from the 87 percent of Black voters who voted for Biden in 2020."

Why else would the Trump campaign hold a rally in a Democratic county in a blue state he has no chance of winning in November. Maybe they feel there are inroads to make with Black and Latino voters. The latter which make up a majority of the population in that part of the Bronx.

As for Trump being a pathological racist who loathes Black people. I have always believed that I rather have a racist wear their heart on their sleeve, so I know where they're coming from. Instead of someone being subtlety racist and in moments of disagreement has the potential to show their true colors.

I understand the points you are making, but the way people more intelligent than Trump are grovelling before him is demeaning and on another level quite scary -it is little different from the people who hailed Saddam Hussein as a new 'Saladin' or tell Putin he is the last hope of Christianity, or Stalin being hailed as a literary genius, or Narendra Modi saying last week I am convinced I was not born biologically, God sent me to do his work-
I am convinced I was not born biologically, God sent me to do his work: Modi in UP | Free Press Kashmir (https://freepresskashmir.news/2024/05/24/i-am-convinced-i-was-not-born-biologically-god-sent-me-to-do-his-work-modi-in-up/)

When adulation replaces estimation based on facts and reason, democracy and the rule of law are diminished. Steve Bannon is open about his views '-Stalingrad every day'-, as is Alex Jones, and I don't know that Marjorie Taylor Greene is coy about her views either, none of which makes them admirable. They are open about their views because they really don't care about the platforms they need to voice them, just as if it comes to it, they will shut them down when it suits them, just as they ban books, ban drag queens, ban abortion -and if Trump can work out what he really thinks that his party wants, and ban contraception -then tell everyone it is the Left that is responsible for 'Cancel Culture'.

Americans must choose between democracy and dictatorship, or competence compared to incompetence, it is that simple. Tim Scott and Byron Donalds want to drag their country back to the Plantation where everyone knows their place, and there is only one boss, and in the latter case seem to think Education Apartheid is America's only hope. After all, Capitalism is a form of slavery, and it has many willing victims, terrified of their own freedom.

[fred41]

Americans must choose between democracy and dictatorship, or competence compared to incompetence, it is that simple. Tim Scott and Byron Donalds want to drag their country back to the Plantation where everyone knows their place, and there is only one boss, and in the latter case seem to think Education Apartheid is America's only hope. After all, Capitalism is a form of slavery, and it has many willing victims, terrified of their own freedom.

They are not choosing between dictatorship and democracy…and Capitalism is not a form of slavery - especially since no country practices a pure form of it. That type of paternalistic hyperbole gives some credence to what MrFanti is implying (though, for some reason or other, he doesn’t defend his statement when he is given ammunition gratis).

It used to be (and still is, in many place here in the States) that comments like that, and some of the names used here to describe Conservative African American politicians, would usually only be wielded by other African Americans…due in part - because of the deeply racist ways in which they could, and continue to be weaponized. It is becoming a strange phenomenon , that white (often relatively wealthy) young people …using the cloak of Oppression Fighter - feel emboldened to spew racist tropes against black people that disagree with them politically. I saw the worst of this in some of the BLM marches - in wihich often white women, spewing spittle filled invectives against black police officers, loudly questioning the civil servant’s blackness.

Strange and troubling times indeed.

[filghy2]

They are not choosing between dictatorship and democracy…and Capitalism is not a form of slavery - especially since no country practices a pure form of it. That type of paternalistic hyperbole gives some credence to what MrFanti is implying (though, for some reason or other, he doesn’t defend his statement when he is given ammunition gratis).

The reason Mr Fanti doesn't defend his own statements is that he's blocked other members who have disagreed with him.

Are you really saying that you don't think Trumpism is a threat to American democracy? I don't dispute that Stavros overdoes the moralistic hyperbole, but I think you may also be engaging in a mixture of American exceptionalist complacency and false equivalence. Whatever you think about the behaviour of some left-wing protestors, it's hard to believe that it represents the same sort of systemic threat. These people are not being supported by the mainstream of the Democrat Party, whereas election denialism has taken over the Republican Party.

How do you look at Trump's attempts to overturn the last election - and the fact that almost the entire Republican Party has since come into line - and not see a threat to democracy? How can you look at Trump's authoritarian language about vermin, etc, and dismiss it as just rhetoric? Do you really think Republican 'adults' are going to stop him acting on his impulses this time?

[fred41]

Yeah, I don’t think Trumpism is a threat to American democracy. I’m confident in our system of government to protect itself from that. Either guy winning may not be good news (depending on one’s political views) , but it won’t be the apocalypse. I don’t know very many other people that actually feel that it would be. You obviously feel otherwise - I think it’s a pointless debate. It also wasn’t the main point to my response.

[filghy2]

You obviously feel otherwise - I think it’s a pointless debate.

What would be a non-pointless debate, in your view? You don't seem to want to debate anyone anyone who disagrees with you. You also seem to be a determined 'bothsidesist'.

[Stavros]

They are not choosing between dictatorship and democracy…and Capitalism is not a form of slavery - especially since no country practices a pure form of it. That type of paternalistic hyperbole gives some credence to what MrFanti is implying (though, for some reason or other, he doesn’t defend his statement when he is given ammunition gratis).

It used to be (and still is, in many place here in the States) that comments like that, and some of the names used here to describe Conservative African American politicians, would usually only be wielded by other African Americans…due in part - because of the deeply racist ways in which they could, and continue to be weaponized. It is becoming a strange phenomenon , that white (often relatively wealthy) young people …using the cloak of Oppression Fighter - feel emboldened to spew racist tropes against black people that disagree with them politically. I saw the worst of this in some of the BLM marches - in wihich often white women, spewing spittle filled invectives against black police officers, loudly questioning the civil servant’s blackness.

Strange and troubling times indeed.

When I say Capitalism is a form of slavery, it is because, hermits aside, people cannot live without money. We are slaves to it, but also to an economic system in which work is not a choice for most people, but a necessity, while at the same time in most economies they (or we) do not have a fair share of the wealth that is created, and just like slavery, cannot liberate people from this permanent loop of scarcity and necessity -isn't this why so many people dream of winning the lottery? Just because these ideas can be found in Marx doesn't mean they are redundant, though I think a lot of what he wrote has since become so. But his ideas about freedom from want are still relevant, though once anything to do with Marx becomes a term of abuse, the genuine philosophy fades into the background, but this is a debate for another occasion.

What strikes me about this other debate, and I admit some of my language has been provocative, is the extent to which the grovelling before Trump is being done by people -Black or White or Latino or Asian or whatever, who think he is an idiot and happily confirm they think he is a shameless liar. This has become a threat to American democracy if you accept that their real goal is not so much Trump the man, as Trump as the facilitator of Project 2025, for this is their end game.

Project 2025, rooted in the perceived failures of Nixon, Reagan and GW Bush, amounts to the most comprehensive re-structuring of the US since it began, for example, declaring the USA as a Christian Nation, with all the rest of the agenda that is laid out in the Project that I have linked in other threads.

I understand why you believe the US system is robust enough to get through the 'Trump era', but at the same time I wonder if you underestimate the degree to which sectarian politics of the kind seen in Texas, Florida and Alabama, to name just three, is not going to be replaced soon by something more congenial to a Jeffersonian view of democracy as a market place of ideas where men, perhaps women too, engage in debates and accept the result of a democratic vote.

This concept of the 'Conservative Nation' in effect replaces the existing form of the State, but is also only partially in favour of free Markets -what matters is a form of identity politics that is more likely to exclude people from the system than include it, much as in those States abortion law is intended to remove Women from the political discourse as independent citizens making their own choices, and make them, when pregnant, wards of the State that will monitor their progress in case they seek a termination, and punish them if they do. It demonizes and then excludes drag queens -I mean, for heaven's sake, drag queens!- as if they are, by definition a threat to children, adults and Judeo-Christian Civilization. These things are actually happening, and with Judges that support them, be they on the Circuits or the Supreme Court, I really do think the US is involved in a crisis that in many ways is worse than the Confederate Insurrection against the USA in the 1860s.

We already hear the same Trump Puppets declare they will not accept the results of the 2024 election, knowing in advance their guy can't win it, but what the hell, the days when losers accepted it have gone, just as Trump doesn't want Trial by Jury but Trial by Chums.

When Byron Donalds and Tim Scott join with others who have little but contempt for the country that made them, you must surely recognize that you are living in a crisis, and that there are no guarantees that the system that has served you since 1776 is going to survive as its founders intended. Because these people really don't care about that, and that may be the scariest thing about it, along with a gun culture that it seems to me cannot be undone.

In time, I think States will go their own way if they can't get their guy into the White House and their soldiers into Congress. The result will be chaos as bad as, or maybe worse than Brexit. And dare I say it is because we have actually experienced separation of this kind that I do hope it doesn't happen to you.

[filghy2]

Yeah, I don’t think Trumpism is a threat to American democracy. I’m confident in our system of government to protect itself from that.

I'm curious as to how you think that works. I assume you are aware of the following:
1. Most Republicans supported Trump's stolen election lie last time, despite the lack of evidence.
2. Since then Trump has increased his control over the party, with those who resisted him either forced out of politics or intimidated into acquiesance.
3. The Constitution does not enforce itself, but requires people from both sides to be willing to do so.
4. The majority of the Supreme are right-wing operatives who have been willing to twist legal principles to justify decisions that suit their own side.
5. There is a plan (Project 2025) to replace neutral public servants with Trump loyalists.
6. A number of other countries have ceased to be effective democracies in recent times. They still have the legal trappings of democracy, but the system is so tilted that only the ruling party can win.

Supposing Republicans were to gain control of both Houses and the Presidency,as occurred in 2016. How exactly would Trump be restrained in these circumstances?

[Fitzcarraldo]

Yeah, I don’t think Trumpism is a threat to American democracy. I’m confident in our system of government to protect itself from that. Either guy winning may not be good news (depending on one’s political views) , but it won’t be the apocalypse. I don’t know very many other people that actually feel that it would be. You obviously feel otherwise - I think it’s a pointless debate. It also wasn’t the main point to my response.

This is what a second Trump term will bring:
https://globalextremism.org/project-2025-the-far-right-playbook-for-american-authoritarianism/

https://www.project2025.org/

[filghy2]

This is what a second Trump term will bring:
https://globalextremism.org/project-2025-the-far-right-playbook-for-american-authoritarianism/

https://www.project2025.org/

The tragedy of the situation is that Trump and his acolytes have not bothered to hide their intentions, yet most Americans seem to have chosen to ignore it.

[Stavros]

The tragedy of the situation is that Trump and his acolytes have not bothered to hide their intentions, yet most Americans seem to have chosen to ignore it.

If not Trump himself, perhaps someone can ask Messrs Johnson, Rubio, Cruz and Hawley-

-The trial is rigged? How?
-The Judge is corrupt? In what way is he corrupt?
-It's a Kangaroo Court! What does this mean?

Maybe people have by now got so used to these ignorant insults that it seems the truth no longer matters. Boris Johnson could not survive in our system, yet Trump does in the US. I think it says a lot about the fragile condition of the American system right now. Can it be repaired? Maybe the truth is that a third or so of Americans no longer believe in what they have, and either want to change it, or have given up. As for those who do believe, they will be sitting on a chair with three legs for some time.

[Fitzcarraldo]

The tragedy of the situation is that Trump and his acolytes have not bothered to hide their intentions, yet most Americans seem to have chosen to ignore it.

Trump would just be a tool of Project 2025. He didn't come up with it. Florida Senator Rick Scott is more in line with the architects of it.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Boris Johnson could not survive in our system, yet Trump does in the US.

Are you sure Johnson is done?

[Stavros]

Trump would just be a tool of Project 2025. He didn't come up with it. Florida Senator Rick Scott is more in line with the architects of it.

To be really effective nationwide, they need Trump in the White House and control of Congress, given they have the Supreme Court as far as can tell. That said, individuals States could go for Project 2025, and in part Texas and Florida have already made moves aligned with it.

[Stavros]

Are you sure Johnson is done?

Right now he is making more money than he ever could as an MP or even Prime Minister. He is not part of the election campaign, so far, because he is on his holidays -again, or not in the country, whatever, wherever. If the party does badly, he would be welcomed back because of his communication skills, but still would have to become an MP again, and I am not sure he is up for it.

[Fitzcarraldo]

To be really effective nationwide, they need Trump in the White House and control of Congress, given they have the Supreme Court as far as can tell. That said, individuals States could go for Project 2025, and in part Texas and Florida have already made moves aligned with it.

They need a Republican in the White House and control of Congress.

[MrFanti]

If the question is “what has Biden done for black people?”
I haven't asked a question - I made a statement of opinion/perspective - check it out again. :cheers:

[Stavros]

I haven't asked a question - I made a statement of opinion/perspective - check it out again. :cheers:

There is no rule on this forum that says you have to be a little more forthcoming with your opinions, but it might be shall we say, 'interesting' to find out -if you lived in their State/District would you vote for Tim Scott or Byron Donalds? I am assuming you would not vote for them just because they are Black, so either way, how would your vote go?

[Stavros]

If Democracy is on the ballot in the US elections, in a way that it is not here in the UK, it might be due to Trump's backers taking the view that it is not something the US needs anymore. Elon Musk is no lover of Democracy, preferring to make money doing deals with autocratic regimes in China, and increasingly in India, where, as in Israel, the Govt might be democratically elected but behaves in a dictatorial fashion.

I don't know much about Peter Thiel, but he is a major backer of Convicted Criminal Trump, thus-

"Peter Thiel, the billionaire tech financier, once wrote (https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/education-libertarian/): “I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.”"

He has also has this take on US history-

"“The 1920s were the last decade in American history during which one could be genuinely optimistic about politics. Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women – two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians – have rendered the notion of ‘capitalist democracy’ into an oxymoron.”".
Why is a group of billionaires working to re-elect Trump? | Robert Reich | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/03/billionaires-for-trump-presidential-election)

There is no historical or indeed, political reason why Capitalism must be wedded to Democracy, but it is clear that Democracy, by giving individuals rights, threatens those Capitalist enterprises that are part of the slave economy, thus Democracy in Capitalism for Thiel seems to be equivalent to freedom from Slavery in the Plantation South c1824. That Thiel thinks Democracy's time is up might not be a surprise, but were he to look at economic history, and ask, when were people most prosperous, he would not like the answer, though I guess, like Trump, he is both too stupid to know how to look these things up, and doesn't care anyway.

In the UK the main concern is that the next Govt will not be much different from the one it replaces, whereas in the US, the potential for disagreements on the fundamentals to erode the Union is more potent than it was in 1861.

[Stavros]

Here is a talking point for the debates, courtesy of Newton Gingrich, writing in the Telegraph (not hidden behind a paywall so far)

Abolish the FBI!

"The first instinct will be to get revenge, given the vicious dishonesty at the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Central Intelligence Agency – and the abuse of prosecutorial power by the Justice Department and prosecutors in Georgia and New York.However, if Republicans start using lawfare and abusing the courts to punish Democrats, the destructive, dangerous cycle would only continue (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/31/the-trump-verdict-will-tear-america-apart/) – and America would be in peril"...

"The next Trump Presidency should reassert the Bill of Rights protections for all Americans. It should investigate violations of the rule of law and conspiracies to use the law as a form of warfare.
It should make public all the documents and communications that show the level of conspiracy from 2015 to today to destroy Mr. Trump as a candidate and later as President (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/0/who-win-2024-us-election-expert-predictions-next-president/). "...

"The next Trump Presidency should explore dramatically reforming – and possibly even dismantling – the FBI. It should establish new standards of transparency and accountability throughout the Department of Justice.
The goal should be to strengthen the rule of the law and reinforce the inviolability of the Constitution – not to use the law against political opponents.
America’s survival depends on this effort. It should be a key principle of the next Trump Presidency."
The legal assaults against Trump must end (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/comment/2024/06/05/donald-trump-trial-conviction-us-election-judicial-system/)

[Fitzcarraldo]

The goal should be to strengthen the rule of the law and reinforce the inviolability of the Constitution – not to use the law against political opponents.

The exact opposite of a Trump presidency.

[filghy2]

"The next Trump Presidency should explore dramatically reforming – and possibly even dismantling – the FBI. It should establish new standards of transparency and accountability throughout the Department of Justice.
The goal should be to strengthen the rule of the law and reinforce the inviolability of the Constitution – not to use the law against political opponents.
America’s survival depends on this effort. It should be a key principle of the next Trump Presidency."

Trump doesn't seem to have got the memo
Trump again suggests he would try to prosecute his political opponents if reelected

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/05/politics/trump-prosecute-political-opponents/index.html

[Stavros]

Re: two previous posts: Gingrich was covering his backside, and goes on with sophistry to argue he is 'restoring' the Constitutional principles he thinks the US was founded on, but then goes on to, in effect say, what the hell, if they do It to Trump, Trump will do It to them. What is the FBI for if not law enforcement?

Defunding the Police was all the rage in the wake of George Floyd's death, and it was used by Republicans to show how irresponsible the Democrats were on law and order -yet as far as I know, the only Police Department to be 'de-funded' was in a Republican county I think in Maine, and Trump is not just arguing for de-funding, but the abolition of the Department of Education, the Environmental Protection Agency so that their issues can be 'returned' to the States, thereby increasing their autonomy from the Federal structure he probably doesn't want the States to be part of in the future.

Through such actions, Trump and his cult are preparing the ground for the effective dissolution of the Union, and its replacement by 50 independent states.

[Stavros]

"Donald Trump (https://www.huffpost.com/news/topic/donald-trump) reportedly sent vetting documents to potential running mates recently ― and the short list should be no surprise.Multiple news outlets (https://apnews.com/article/trump-vp-paperwork-vetting-b1e21a7e9eae7141c4f144735671b330) reported Wednesday (https://nypost.com/2024/06/05/us-news/trump-campaign-sends-vetting-paperwork-to-possible-2024-vps-here-are-the-notable-names/) that Sens. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), J.D. Vance (R-Ohio) and Tim Scott (R-S.C.) plus Reps. Byron Donalds (R-Fla.) Elise Stefanik (R-N.Y.) have received the forms, as have North Dakota Gov. Doug Burgum (R) and former Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson."
Here Are Trump VP Candidates Who Reportedly Received Vetting Papers For The Job (yahoo.com) (https://uk.yahoo.com/news/trump-vp-candidates-reportedly-received-104540238.html)

If it goes to the least known and exciting, must be Burgum...? Always assuming he doesn't go for Peter Navarro or Michael Flynn.

[Stavros]

I just watched the CNN broadcast.

America, you have a problem. A big problem.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

I just watched the CNN broadcast.

America, you have a problem. A big problem.I have also watch the First Presidential Debate. Donald -Orange Rambling Clown-Trump used the same playbook he used in 2020,and is a pathological liar,and the incumbent Joe Biden's performance wasn't very good. And Democratic Strategists are concerned about his performance.

[filghy2]

I didn't watch it as I'm not a masochist, but it sounds like it was a disaster for Biden. I don't take pleasure in being vindicated on this, but I told you so a few months back.


The big problem with Biden isn't lack of charisma, it's age. He seems to lack mental sharpness and energy and that's only going to get worse through a gruelling campaign and then four more years if he was to win. Most of the current problems may have been due to circumstances beyond his control, but too often he comes across as passive and ineffectual in response. Successful Presidents tend to be defined by how well they respond to adverse developments.

Not surprisingly, Trump lied and dissembled continually, but Biden just doesn't seem mentally sharp enough to capitalise.

It sounds like some Democrats are now talking about whether Biden can be replaced as candidate. They should have been doing that six months ago.

[Fitzcarraldo]

It sounds like some Democrats are now talking about whether Biden can be replaced as candidate. They should have been doing that six months ago.

They've been doing that for at least four years.

[Stavros]

I didn't watch it as I'm not a masochist, but it sounds like it was a disaster for Biden. I don't take pleasure in being vindicated on this, but I told you so a few months back.



Not surprisingly, Trump lied and dissembled continually, but Biden just doesn't seem mentally sharp enough to capitalise.

It sounds like some Democrats are now talking about whether Biden can be replaced as candidate. They should have been doing that six months ago.

On one level you were right, but on another level I believe the view was that while Biden is not an inspiring speaker on public platforms his long experience in DC has given him negotiating skills, he has and has promoted a progressive agenda, and crucially, his team is made up of mature people. The obvious problem is that when it comes to presentation skills, Trump can shout louder and appear stronger though I must admit Biden's age is painfully evident, even if most of the time he is of sound mind.

Just as depressing was the abject failure of the two hosts to challenge Trump on his ludicrous assertions -have 'millions and millions' of illegal migrants crossed the border in under 4 years, and are they from mental institutions, prisons and so on? As with Farage in this country claiming immigrants are a drain on social services, most of them are young and fit and don't need health care and are available for work immediately, and in both the US and the UK there are minimum wage laws that employers ought not to violate.

Then there is the 'I did not have sex with that woman' lie, the claim Biden is a 'Manchurian Candidate', so preposterous it beggars belief neither Tapper nor Bash challenged Trump to offer proof, while all the facts -defaming E Jean Carroll, stealing government documents, endorsing the seditious attack on the US, and so on, went unremarked. Biden couldn't handle it, he had no means of directly challenging or refuting what Trump says, but were Trump's hysterical rants enough to convince undecided voters?

As for the Democrats, procedurally they have to find a new candidate if Jill can persuade Joe to drop out (I don't think anyone else can), but then there is the list for the Convention to consider -Harris, Newsom, Whitmer, Beshear, Buttigieg, and someone called Wes More about whom I know nothing, in fact I never heard of him until this morning- I assume any one of them would shred Trump in a public debate, but the process of choosing one of them will not be easy.

There is still time to act, but will they?

[KnightHawk 2.0]

I didn't watch it as I'm not a masochist, but it sounds like it was a disaster for Biden. I don't take pleasure in being vindicated on this, but I told you so a few months back.



Not surprisingly, Trump lied and dissembled continually, but Biden just doesn't seem mentally sharp enough to capitalise.

It sounds like some Democrats are now talking about whether Biden can be replaced as candidate. They should have been doing that six months ago.Completely agree,if the Democrats thought that President Joe Biden wasn't up the task of serving a second term?,they should have began the process of finding someone who they think has a better of defeating Donald Trump over a year ago.But they didn't ,the 2024 Election is over four months away,and it is too late now to find a replacement and Joe Biden will be the Democratic Nominee whether they like it or not.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

On one level you were right, but on another level I believe the view was that while Biden is not an inspiring speaker on public platforms his long experience in DC has given him negotiating skills, he has and has promoted a progressive agenda, and crucially, his team is made up of mature people. The obvious problem is that when it comes to presentation skills, Trump can shout louder and appear stronger though I must admit Biden's age is painfully evident, even if most of the time he is of sound mind.

Just as depressing was the abject failure of the two hosts to challenge Trump on his ludicrous assertions -have 'millions and millions' of illegal migrants crossed the border in under 4 years, and are they from mental institutions, prisons and so on? As with Farage in this country claiming immigrants are a drain on social services, most of them are young and fit and don't need health care and are available for work immediately, and in both the US and the UK there are minimum wage laws that employers ought not to violate.

Then there is the 'I did not have sex with that woman' lie, the claim Biden is a 'Manchurian Candidate', so preposterous it beggars belief neither Tapper nor Bash challenged Trump to offer proof, while all the facts -defaming E Jean Carroll, stealing government documents, endorsing the seditious attack on the US, and so on, went unremarked. Biden couldn't handle it, he had no means of directly challenging or refuting what Trump says, but were Trump's hysterical rants enough to convince undecided voters?

As for the Democrats, procedurally they have to find a new candidate if Jill can persuade Joe to drop out (I don't think anyone else can), but then there is the list for the Convention to consider -Harris, Newsom, Whitmer, Beshear, Buttigieg, and someone called Wes More about whom I know nothing, in fact I never heard of him until this morning- I assume any one of them would shred Trump in a public debate, but the process of choosing one of them will not be easy.

There is still time to act, but will they?I watched President Joe Biden give a fiery speech at a campaign rally in Raleigh North Carolina earlier today,where the crowd was chanting four more years and chanting his name. He also really went after Donald Trump,and addressed the elephant in the room about his age and says he could do the job. And it sounds like he's not stepping down from the Campaign Trail anytime soon. However if he did decide to step aside,Vice President Kamala Harris would be the next in line to be the democratic nominee,and she would mop the floor with Donald Trump and shred him in a public debate. No i don't think they will act.

[filghy2]

As for the Democrats, procedurally they have to find a new candidate if Jill can persuade Joe to drop out (I don't think anyone else can), but then there is the list for the Convention to consider -Harris, Newsom, Whitmer, Beshear, Buttigieg, and someone called Wes More about whom I know nothing, in fact I never heard of him until this morning- I assume any one of them would shred Trump in a public debate, but the process of choosing one of them will not be easy.

There is still time to act, but will they?

They need to find someone who satisfies the minimum requirement of being able to make clear arguments off the cuff without losing their train of thought, but on previous form they probably won't. Biden seems to have a bad case of stubborn old man syndrome. Ironically, in trying to protect his pride he is probably ensuring his own humiliation.

It's galling that many people in the party who see more of him than we do must have know it wasn't tenable for him to run again, yet they talked themselves into a state of paralysis where any other option was seen as too hard. In it's own way, this is almost a big a failure as the Republican Party's failure to see off Trump after the last election.

Given Biden's age, more thought should have been given to the future in the lead-up to the 2020 election. More thought should have been given to choosing a VP who would be able to step into Biden's shoes if needed. Those who through their support behind him in 2020 should have insisted on conditions about running again. They should have known that statistically there was a big risk of mental and physical decline.

[Stavros]

The additional problem is that if Biden did step down the party would then be spending time and money on itself when it should be campaigning against Trump. I assume if Biden resigned, say for reasons of ill health, Harris is President and thus offers the country a young President who ought to be able to both mount effective attacks against Trump while promoting a view that stresses the future and optimism, given that Trump is all about the past, retribution and has nothing good to say about the US. This is an opportunity for Harris to make history, but do the Democrats want her as their leader? And is it not the case that whatever her ratings are now, if she was given the chance she would prove to be better than expected?

[filghy2]

The additional problem is that if Biden did step down the party would then be spending time and money on itself when it should be campaigning against Trump.

The problem is that Biden's increasingly obvious shortcomings are detracting from their ability to get across the message about Trump's flaws. They can't compensate for that by putting out more ads or prioritising internal unity.

[Fitzcarraldo]

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/editorials/first-presidential-debate-joe-biden-donald-trump-withdraw-20240629.html

[filghy2]

Calculations by FiveThirtyEight on electoral college bias. They estimate that Biden needs to win the national vote by at least 2% to win the EC. On the latest polling average he was behind by 1%. So that's 3% to make up, even before the debate debacle.
1458670

[Stavros]

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/editorials/first-presidential-debate-joe-biden-donald-trump-withdraw-20240629.html

Indeed! So little discussion of the stuff Trump came out with -I am still waiting for someone to tell me what he meant when calling Biden the 'Manchurian Candidate'- was Biden brainwashed by the Chinese and is waiting for the 'trigger' moment when he assassinates Trump? They tried making the film twice, and failed both times, not sure third time lucky was the intention behind the FBI 'raid' on Mar-a-Lago, guns locked and loaded, when he claims he was tortured instead.

[Stavros]

Calculations by FiveThirtyEight on electoral college bias. They estimate that Biden needs to win the national vote by at least 2% to win the EC. On the latest polling average he was behind by 1%. So that's 3% to make up, even before the debate debacle.
1458670

It is still a question of numbers and if Trump voters declined in the Primaries, they may fall even more if the court -the 11th July I believe- imposes some tough sentencing, say, limiting Trump's movements outside of either New York State or Florida.

A more perverse option is emerging, via Kamala Harris and Jill Biden and some others in effect saying that Joe can 'bounce back' as he appeared to in that rally, though that will only fuel speculation that he has been 'pumped up'.

No, the issue is this: if Biden is elected, will he last 4 more years? He could have a stroke- between now and November or after it- which leaves Harris in pole position to become the first Woman to be President of the USA. She need not worry about a divisive leadership contest if the powers that be stick with Joe, so either now or later the Trump people, if they can think it through may have a new slogan

'Vote Biden, Get Harris'. The irony being for some it is more a hope than a warning.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Changing the ticket is much easier said than done:
https://apnews.com/article/biden-replacement-democratic-ballot-dnc-rules-7aa836b0ae642a68eec86cc0bebd3772

[Stavros]

Changing the ticket is much easier said than done:
https://apnews.com/article/biden-replacement-democratic-ballot-dnc-rules-7aa836b0ae642a68eec86cc0bebd3772

Not sure, because if Biden resigns citing reasons of ill health, and does it say, tomorrow, Harris becomes President. How this impacts the Convention regulations I don't know, but if Biden is no longer running for office, can the Convention delegates vote for someone else?

[filghy2]

It is still a question of numbers and if Trump voters declined in the Primaries, they may fall even more if the court -the 11th July I believe- imposes some tough sentencing, say, limiting Trump's movements outside of either New York State or Florida.

A more perverse option is emerging, via Kamala Harris and Jill Biden and some others in effect saying that Joe can 'bounce back' as he appeared to in that rally, though that will only fuel speculation that he has been 'pumped up'.

The last election was decided by just under 43,000 votes in 3 states, so it will take only a small shift to change the result. They don't even have to switch to Trump; they could stay home or vote for a third party. I'd say most undecided voters don't like either choice.

I doubt that people will forget what they saw just because he does some prepared stump speeches okay. It's obviously a less challenging task. Most undecided voters won't even know because they don't follow this stuff, though they are unlikely to have missed seeing something about Biden's brain freeze in the debate.

[blackchubby38]

Biden’s family privately criticizes top advisers and pushes for their ouster at Camp David meeting


http://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/30/biden-camp-david-family-debate-00165970

[Stavros]

Biden’s family privately criticizes top advisers and pushes for their ouster at Camp David meeting


http://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/30/biden-camp-david-family-debate-00165970

This is nonsense, now can someone be 'over prepared' when the question is why Biden did not react spontaneously when Trump made such outrageous statements about immigration, losing the election and so on -did he need coaching to do that? Surely this is the bread and butter stuff of normal debate? And what about the two moderators who allowed Trump to change the subject and not answer questions, and never challenge him on claims that have no merit on any level? In the UK elections the moderators make politicians uncomfortable, asking them tough questions and they expect it -they even get hostile questions from the public which I don't see in this US election -open it up, get Trump and Biden to face the music, though Trump usually walks out of interviews if he thinks they are not going his way.

What you don't get in the US

Rishi Sunak and Keir Starmer face the difficult questions at Sky News leaders' event (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oM4-0KMxS8)

[Stavros]

duplicate deleted

[filghy2]

Biden’s family privately criticizes top advisers and pushes for their ouster at Camp David meeting




I know these views didn't come from Biden himself, but blaming the staff is never a good sign.
"Among the family’s complaints about the debate practice: that Biden was not prepared to pivot more to go on the attack; that he was bogged down too much on defending his record rather than outlining a vision for a second term; and that he was over-worked and not well-rested."

If the man can't come up with his own reponses in a critical situation then he shouldn't be running. If he can't function unless conditions are just right then he shouldn't be running. If the approach suggested by advisors was wrong for him, why didn't he insist on a different approach?

I guess this means we are stuck with Biden, barring a major health problem.

[filghy2]

If people still backing Biden really believe the debate was just an aberration and he's still capable of campaigning effectively there's an obvious way to prove it. Have him do a series of tough interviews where he will be grilled and has to come up with responses off the cuff. If they continue to shield him it suggests they don't actually believe their own lines.

[blackchubby38]

I know these views didn't come from Biden himself, but blaming the staff is never a good sign.
"Among the family’s complaints about the debate practice: that Biden was not prepared to pivot more to go on the attack; that he was bogged down too much on defending his record rather than outlining a vision for a second term; and that he was over-worked and not well-rested."

If the man can't come up with his own reponses in a critical situation then he shouldn't be running. If he can't function unless conditions are just right then he shouldn't be running. If the approach suggested by advisors was wrong for him, why didn't he insist on a different approach?

I guess this means we are stuck with Biden, barring a major health problem.

I just want to make something known. I posted that article as to keep people informed as to what's been happening since Thursday's night debacle. I'm by no means endorsing the opinions expressed by the Biden family, as I feel there are not helping in this situation.

Furthermore, I have never liked the idea of a President or those close to him blaming others for their shortcomings. Because something tells me that if Biden did well in that debate, we wouldn't be hearing how well his staff helped him prepare and that he would be getting all the praise for how well he handled Trump.

Finally, I find the people going out of their way to make excuses for Biden's performance or basically telling others who have concerns to basically "Shut up and support the guy" are in some serious denial about him being an effective campaigner or what the next four years are going to be like if he is re-elected. He is the President of the United States, not your favorite sports team.

[Stavros]

Finally, I find the people going out of their way to make excuses for Biden's performance or basically telling others who have concerns to basically "Shut up and support the guy" are in some serious denial about him being an effective campaigner or what the next four years are going to be like if he is re-elected. He is the President of the United States, not your favorite sports team.

I agree, which is why if he is re-elected in November, I doubt he will still be there in 2028. So why wait for him to resign owing to ill health a year into the Presidency? It looks like the Democrats haven't got the bottle to do what they need to do.

[Fitzcarraldo]

I agree, which is why if he is re-elected in November, I doubt he will still be there in 2028. So why wait for him to resign owing to ill health a year into the Presidency? It looks like the Democrats haven't got the bottle to do what they need to do.

They need to have the candidate to replace him. Who is it? Who doesn't alienate independent voters more than Biden?

[Stavros]

They need to have the candidate to replace him. Who is it? Who doesn't alienate independent voters more than Biden?

The point is that if he is in office, but resigns or dies or is removed, the Vice President automatically takes over. This may even be what Harris and her supporters are thinking.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

A Question For My Fellow Posters: What if President Joe Biden decided to end his campaign for reelection and step aside,and Vice President Kamala Harris becomes the president and the Democratic Nominee,and Joe Biden gives her his full support. Do y'all think the other members of the Party jump on board and support her?.

[filghy2]

A Question For My Fellow Posters: What if President Joe Biden decided to end his campaign for reelection and step aside,and Vice President Kamala Harris becomes the president and the Democratic Nominee,and Joe Biden gives her his full support. Do y'all think the other members of the Party jump on board and support her?.

I don't think they would have any choice, because challenging that solution would be very messy and they would be blamed for creating disunity. The only way someone else could get it would be if Biden nominated them.

[Fitzcarraldo]

A Question For My Fellow Posters: What if President Joe Biden decided to end his campaign for reelection and step aside,and Vice President Kamala Harris becomes the president and the Democratic Nominee,and Joe Biden gives her his full support. Do y'all think the other members of the Party jump on board and support her?.

I think the party would, but I'm not so sure about the American people.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

I don't think they would have any choice, because challenging that solution would be very messy and they would be blamed for creating disunity. The only way someone else could get it would be if Biden nominated them.Agree if the other members of Democratic Party don't want to support Kamela Harris as the nominee ,even though she would be the rightful nominee. And them choosing to go in another direction by picking someone else as their nominee would create a very messy situation,and they would be blamed for disunity within the party.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

I think the party would, but I'm not so sure about the American people. I think that most members of the Democratic Party would support Kamela Harris as the nominee,if President Joe Biden made the decision to end his campaign. Some of the american people will,some of them won't.

[filghy2]

They need to have the candidate to replace him. Who is it? Who doesn't alienate independent voters more than Biden?

Do you believe that Biden can effectively make the case against Trump and perform the job for the next 4 years? If the answer is no, and you also believe that Trump is a threat to democracy, then surely something must be done even if it's risky.

Risk aversion is not a good strategy when you are well behind and the stakes are high.

[Stavros]

The point is that if he is in office, but resigns or dies or is removed, the Vice President automatically takes over. This may even be what Harris and her supporters are thinking.

To clarify -my post assumed a Biden victory in November. If for whatever reason Biden withdraws before November, Harris will be President, but the Democrat Convention, whose delegates are there to nominate Biden via the Primaries, will face the question -must they open up the Convention to a 'super Primary' in which the Delegates nominate and then select their Candidate? I don't know the rules so I am making this assumption.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Do you believe that Biden can effectively make the case against Trump and perform the job for the next 4 years? If the answer is no, and you also believe that Trump is a threat to democracy, then surely something must be done even if it's risky.

Risk aversion is not a good strategy when you are well behind and the stakes are high.

A hypothetical candidate is not the answer. Of course one can conceive that there is a better candidate, but there has to be a name. And that name has to go through the process of gaining Democratic delegates to get the nomination.

[blackchubby38]

If people still backing Biden really believe the debate was just an aberration and he's still capable of campaigning effectively there's an obvious way to prove it. Have him do a series of tough interviews where he will be grilled and has to come up with responses off the cuff. If they continue to shield him it suggests they don't actually believe their own lines.

Would an interview with George Stephanopoulos count?

http://www.cnn.com/2024/07/02/media/biden-interview-abc-george-stephanopoulos/index.html

[filghy2]

Would an interview with George Stephanopoulos count?

http://www.cnn.com/2024/07/02/media/biden-interview-abc-george-stephanopoulos/index.html

I guess it's a start, though I don't know what Stephanopolous has been saying. It would be good to have someone who has been sceptical.

There also needs to be more than just one. Only four proper interviews in an election year is not good. They have clearly been shielding him from scrutiny.

[Fitzcarraldo]

I guess it's a start, though I don't know what Stephanopolous has been saying. It would be good to have someone who has been sceptical.

There also needs to be more than just one. Only four proper interviews in an election year is not good. They have clearly been shielding him from scrutiny.

Have you ever watched a Donald Trump interview?

[filghy2]

Have you ever watched a Donald Trump interview?

The fact is that Biden is behind and has been for some time. The onus is on him to change people's minds.

The idea that we could ignore Biden's shortcomings because Trump is worse is exactly why we are in this position. Like it or not, clearly not enough voters are convinced.

[tslvr]

Kamala couldn't reach 1% support in her home state when she ran in 2020.

[Fitzcarraldo]

The fact is that Biden is behind and has been for some time.

Citation needed. The polls I've seen have all been pretty much neck and neck.

[filghy2]

FiveThirtyEight average of national polls shows Biden was only briefly level and now the gap has opened up again.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/national/

[blackchubby38]

I guess Biden won't be doing any interviews with Carl Bernstein:

Carl Bernstein: Sources say Biden’s debate ‘horror show’ far from a ‘one-off’

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4751653-carl-bernstein-biden-trump-debate-anderson-cooper-cnn/

[Stavros]

I guess Biden won't be doing any interviews with Carl Bernstein:

Carl Bernstein: Sources say Biden’s debate ‘horror show’ far from a ‘one-off’

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4751653-carl-bernstein-biden-trump-debate-anderson-cooper-cnn/

blackchubby, you are a smart guy -what do you think are the Democrats best options? And if you had a magic wand, who would you want to contest the election?

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Looks like President Joe Biden is staying in the race til the end. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/biden-meet-democratic-governors-seeks-tamp-calls-step-rcna160104

[filghy2]

Here's another polling average which is even worse - Trump up by 2.9% nationally.
https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-biden

The picture in the swing states is not good - Trump is well ahead in all but Wisconsin.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Another Question For My Fellow Posters: President Joe Biden says he's not leaving,and will remain in the race til the end,even though most polls have him trailing Donald Trump. Do you think that by him staying the course,is an attempt by him and his campaign
to squash all the calls from Democrats for him to step aside and let somebody else run in his place?

[Fitzcarraldo]

Here's another polling average which is even worse - Trump up by 2.9% nationally.
https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-biden

The picture in the swing states is not good - Trump is well ahead in all but Wisconsin.

Polling results have not been reliable since at least 2016. Hillary Clinton was supposed to win, according to polls. Since Biden was elected, Democrats were supposed to lose in midterms but didn't. Initiatives to preserve abortions were supposed to fail but didn't. Also, today is July 3rd. The election is in November.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Another Question For My Fellow Posters: President Joe Biden says he's not leaving,and will remain in the race til the end,even though most polls have him trailing Donald Trump. Do you think that by him staying the course,is an attempt by him and his campaign
to squash all the calls from Democrats for him to step aside and let somebody else run in his place?

I think if the Democrats won't support their own candidate (who has pledged delegates and millions and millions of dollars in campaign contributions) then there's no reason for anyone else to support their candidate. They need to learn to commit and support. Hand wringing won't move the needle.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

I think if the Democrats won't support their own candidate (who has pledged delegates and millions and millions of dollars in campaign contributions) then there's no reason for anyone else to support their candidate. They need to learn to commit and support. Hand wringing won't move the needle. Agree 100%. And the reasons Joe Biden isn't stepping down from the campaign trail,is because he defeated Donald Trump in the 2020 Election,and thinks he's the best candidate to defeat him again in the upcoming election. And he also wants to prove to his fellow Democrats that he is the right man for the job,and can serve and complete a second term.

[filghy2]

Do you believe that Biden can effectively make the case against Trump and perform the job for the next 4 years? If the answer is no, and you also believe that Trump is a threat to democracy, then surely something must be done even if it's risky.

Risk aversion is not a good strategy when you are well behind and the stakes are high.


I think if the Democrats won't support their own candidate (who has pledged delegates and millions and millions of dollars in campaign contributions) then there's no reason for anyone else to support their candidate. They need to learn to commit and support. Hand wringing won't move the needle.

So ignore what we saw last week, assume the voters will also ignore it, assume the polls are wrong and everything's really going fine? Sounds like a great strategy.

It seems like you would rather Trump be President than admit you have been wrong.

[filghy2]

Polling results have not been reliable since at least 2016. Hillary Clinton was supposed to win, according to polls. Since Biden was elected, Democrats were supposed to lose in midterms but didn't. Initiatives to preserve abortions were supposed to fail but didn't. Also, today is July 3rd. The election is in November.

I'm guessing that if Biden was doing well in the polls you would not be telling us to ignore them.

The idea that polls were okay until 2016 but no good since then seems to be a bit of a myth. Polls have always been subject to error, and it can go either way (ie Biden's support could also be overstated). Polls in 2022 were actually better than average historically.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/2022-election-polling-accuracy/

[Stavros]

Polling results have not been reliable since at least 2016. Hillary Clinton was supposed to win, according to polls. Since Biden was elected, Democrats were supposed to lose in midterms but didn't. Initiatives to preserve abortions were supposed to fail but didn't. Also, today is July 3rd. The election is in November.

But Hillary Clinton did win in 2026 -the popular vote. What the polls do not or cannot show is how votes in the general election translate into the results of the Electoral College. I don't see how Trump can win in November unless he both retains his share of the Republican vote and increases his support among Democrat and undecided voters. The full impact of the court cases might not be as damaging as the polls suggest, but the only way I see Trump winning is through the manipulation of the vote by state officials, with the prospect that the Supreme Court finds some sophistry to change the outcome. But all this presumes the two candidates are still there in November, and we can't be sure of that.

On another level, the polls in the UK in 2017 were wrong because the polling organizations underestimated the 'youth vote', so the organizations are capable of being wrong, though I assume after the 2016 experience they have smartened up their act.

[filghy2]

What the polls do not or cannot show is how votes in the general election translate into the results of the Electoral College.

They do because they do polling for the swing states where results have been close in recent elections. Trump is ahead in 6 of the 7 and tied in the other, which would mean a clearcut EC win. Biden probably needs at least Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania to win.
https://www.realclearpolling.com/elections/president/2024/battleground-states

[Fitzcarraldo]

So ignore what we saw last week, assume the voters will also ignore it, assume the polls are wrong and everything's really going fine? Sounds like a great strategy.

It seems like you would rather Trump be President than admit you have been wrong.

No one is ignoring what happened on one evening last week. But that was one event that should not determine the entirety of time that follows it. That poor performance did not change what Biden has achieved while in office.

I do not want Trump to be president. If a non-Biden savior were going to emerge, it would have happened before the Democratic primaries. The Democrats need to rally behind their candidate.

[Fitzcarraldo]

I'm guessing that if Biden was doing well in the polls you would not be telling us to ignore them.

The idea that polls were okay until 2016 but no good since then seems to be a bit of a myth. Polls have always been subject to error, and it can go either way (ie Biden's support could also be overstated). Polls in 2022 were actually better than average historically.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/2022-election-polling-accuracy/

You are guessing wrong. I have been skeptical of the polls since 2016.

[Stavros]

They do because they do polling for the swing states where results have been close in recent elections. Trump is ahead in 6 of the 7 and tied in the other, which would mean a clearcut EC win. Biden probably needs at least Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania to win.
https://www.realclearpolling.com/elections/president/2024/battleground-states

A fair point to make, if scary.

[Stavros]

Kamala Harris -against, in the Guardian, and against, in the Telegraph (consistently anti-Biden-Harris anyway).

If she divides opinion so much, does she have a genuine shot? And then it is possible that she may be moulded by the Office rather than the other way round, and a lot would depend on who she brings in to her White House team, setting aside the claims she is a poor manager of people.

I just don't know enough to make a judgment.

Telegraph also pushing the Michelle Obama argument, perhaps prompted by their American informers?

Who can we blame for Joe Biden’s gamble? Angry Democrats are starting to point the finger | Emma Brockes | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jul/04/blame-joe-biden-gamble-angry-democrats)

Kamala Harris Mocked Over BET Awards Video: 'Cringe' - Newsweek (https://www.newsweek.com/kamala-harris-2024-election-bet-awards-taraji-p-henson-video-1919389)

Republicans launch attack ads over fears Kamala Harris will replace Joe Biden (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2024/07/03/republicans-attack-ads-kamala-harris-replace-joe-biden/)

The world must prepare for President Michelle Obama (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/the-world-must-prepare-for-president-michelle-obama/ar-BB1poh8d?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ACTS&cvid=b5c0d98c47e0488db397e38280c1514f&ei=8)

[Stavros]

‘We have never been here as a country’: Historian Heather Cox Richardson puts Trump immunity ruling into perspective (yahoo.com) (https://uk.yahoo.com/news/never-country-historian-heather-cox-181453289.html)

[Fitzcarraldo]

Kamala Harris -against, in the Guardian, and against, in the Telegraph (consistently anti-Biden-Harris anyway).

If she divides opinion so much, does she have a genuine shot? And then it is possible that she may be moulded by the Office rather than the other way round, and a lot would depend on who she brings in to her White House team, setting aside the claims she is a poor manager of people.

I just don't know enough to make a judgment.

Telegraph also pushing the Michelle Obama argument, perhaps prompted by their American informers?

Who can we blame for Joe Biden’s gamble? Angry Democrats are starting to point the finger | Emma Brockes | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jul/04/blame-joe-biden-gamble-angry-democrats)

Kamala Harris Mocked Over BET Awards Video: 'Cringe' - Newsweek (https://www.newsweek.com/kamala-harris-2024-election-bet-awards-taraji-p-henson-video-1919389)

Republicans launch attack ads over fears Kamala Harris will replace Joe Biden (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2024/07/03/republicans-attack-ads-kamala-harris-replace-joe-biden/)

The world must prepare for President Michelle Obama (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/the-world-must-prepare-for-president-michelle-obama/ar-BB1poh8d?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ACTS&cvid=b5c0d98c47e0488db397e38280c1514f&ei=8)

Michelle Obama has never served in public office. That's a ridiculous fantasy. No matter how much anyone admires her, she does not have the experience necessary to be president.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

@Stavros: I would like to hear your thoughts on the question i posted yesterday.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Last night President Joe Biden said that he wasn't leaving the campaign trail,even though he's trailing Donald Trump in the polls in several key battleground states and despite calls from fellow Democratic Lawmakers and Political Pundits to step aside,and let somebody else run in his place. And yes his performance in last week's debate was terrible,and his campaign taking the risk to having the debate in late june was very bad idea that backfired. And a 90 minute debate where he wasn't his best,doesn't erase over 3 1/2 years of the great work that him and his administration has accomplished. If the democrats didn't think that Joe Biden wasn't up too the task of serving and completing a second term,they should have began the process of finding a candidate who they thought had a better chance of defeating Donald Trump in the upcoming election over a year ago,before the democratic primaries. And with the Democratic National Convention over a month away,and the General Election over 120 days, it is too late for him to step aside and let somebody else run. What the Democrats need to do is to help him turn things around,by going out to the battleground states and speak to voters about the upcoming election,and why they should vote for President Joe Biden and tell them about the vision he has for the country. And i sure as hell don't want too see Donald Trump becoming president ever again,because that would be the end of democracy.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

@BlackChubby: I would also like hear your thoughts on the comment i posted yesterday.

[blackchubby38]

blackchubby, you are a smart guy -what do you think are the Democrats best options? And if you had a magic wand, who would you want to contest the election?

Their only best option now is to pray and hope Biden doesn't shit his pan..., I mean the bed come November.

In a perfect scenario, Biden would have pledged to be one term President back in 2020, therefore allowing Kamala Harris, Gavin Newsom, and anybody else who would have been interested to compete in the primaries.

Instead, the Democrats were so concerned about Trump being reelected, that they convinced themselves that despite Biden's obvious flaws, he was the only one who would beat Trump again. But the one thing that they, the media, and many Democratic voters have not realized (or they have and just don't want to admit it) is that if it wasn't for the pandemic, there is a very good chance Trump would have won back in 2020.

Even when you take that into consideration, there was still time to do something about it by people convincing Biden that he accomplished what he set out to do. He realized his goal of becoming President, he beat Trump, and he got the country back on track post pandemic*. Now it was time for him to hand the reigns over to someone else and let them be the Democratic nominee. It would allow him to concentrate on the running the country during a pivotal election year. But they didn’t do that.

There was still time to do something though. Maybe if more people would have the balls to do what Doug Jones did and challenge Biden during the primaries, it could have made a difference. Instead, the guy was dismissed, ridiculed and called a “Putin Puppet” and the Democrats rallied around Biden and declared, “He is our guy”.

So, here we are now and barring some unforeseen circumstances, the Democrats are stuck with Biden. Because even if many of them wanted to change donkeys in midstream, they couldn’t do so without possibly causing a civil war in the Democratic Party. As evident by this statement:

California delegate says Black women will 'blow the party up' if Dems pick a 'White man over Kamala Harris'


http://www.foxnews.com/media/california-delegate-says-black-women-blow-party-up-dems-pick-white-man-kamala-harris

In conclusion, we just to have to hope that Biden’s staff does a better job at prepping him before the next debate and that he doesn’t have jet lag. Oh and that there aren't any October surprises.

*-If you don’t count things like immigration and inflation.

[blackchubby38]

Another Question For My Fellow Posters: President Joe Biden says he's not leaving,and will remain in the race til the end,even though most polls have him trailing Donald Trump. Do you think that by him staying the course,is an attempt by him and his campaign
to squash all the calls from Democrats for him to step aside and let somebody else run in his place?

Yes, Biden is telling them they have no one else to to turn to and that they need to fall in line.

[blackchubby38]

They do because they do polling for the swing states where results have been close in recent elections. Trump is ahead in 6 of the 7 and tied in the other, which would mean a clearcut EC win. Biden probably needs at least Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania to win.
https://www.realclearpolling.com/elections/president/2024/battleground-states

Whitmer Disavows ‘Draft Gretch’ Movement — and Delivers A Warning to Biden

http://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/07/01/whitmer-biden-democrats-2028-00165995

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Yes, Biden is telling them they have no one else to to turn to and that they need to fall in line.Agree,that is exactly the message President Joe Biden is telling the people who are calling for him to step aside,and let somebody else run. And he's their nominee whether they like it or not.

[Stavros]

Their only best option now is to pray and hope Biden doesn't shit his pan..., I mean the bed come November.

In a perfect scenario, Biden would have pledged to be one term President back in 2020, therefore allowing Kamala Harris, Gavin Newsom, and anybody else who would have been interested to compete in the primaries.

Instead, the Democrats were so concerned about Trump being reelected, that they convinced themselves that despite Biden's obvious flaws, he was the only one who would beat Trump again. But the one thing that they, the media, and many Democratic voters have not realized (or they have and just don't want to admit it) is that if it wasn't for the pandemic, there is a very good chance Trump would have won back in 2020.

Even when you take that into consideration, there was still time to do something about it by people convincing Biden that he accomplished what he set out to do. He realized his goal of becoming President, he beat Trump, and he got the country back on track post pandemic*. Now it was time for him to hand the reigns over to someone else and let them be the Democratic nominee. It would allow him to concentrate on the running the country during a pivotal election year. But they didn’t do that.

There was still time to do something though. Maybe if more people would have the balls to do what Doug Jones did and challenge Biden during the primaries, it could have made a difference. Instead, the guy was dismissed, ridiculed and called a “Putin Puppet” and the Democrats rallied around Biden and declared, “He is our guy”.

So, here we are now and barring some unforeseen circumstances, the Democrats are stuck with Biden. Because even if many of them wanted to change donkeys in midstream, they couldn’t do so without possibly causing a civil war in the Democratic Party. As evident by this statement:

California delegate says Black women will 'blow the party up' if Dems pick a 'White man over Kamala Harris'


http://www.foxnews.com/media/california-delegate-says-black-women-blow-party-up-dems-pick-white-man-kamala-harris

In conclusion, we just to have to hope that Biden’s staff does a better job at prepping him before the next debate and that he doesn’t have jet lag. Oh and that there aren't any October surprises.

*-If you don’t count things like immigration and inflation.

Thanks for this, blackchubby. I don't know, but maybe there is a 'system' failure here, just as in 2016 there was criticism of Hillary Clinton as the candidate, not because she actually won the popular vote, but simply because though she had been Senator for New York and Secretary of State she was, well, Mrs Clinton. It looked at the time like Robert Kennedy following JFK, but at the same time one could imagine if it existed, a Democrat Party 'elite' looking after their own, elevating someone on the basis that they had served their time in the trenches and it was now time to step up to the highest office. Even if Clinton would have been a good President, it was also a red rag to Republicans who literally hated both Bill and Hillary -indeed, it has been argued, and not just by me, that it was during the Clinton Presidency that Newton Gingrich began the deeply sectarian war against the Democrats, and that much of the poisonous rejection of bi-partisan politics dates from this time.

Thus, again, what in the UK we would call the 'men in grey suits' may have rejected the idea of Biden being a one-term President and backed him even though he would be the oldest President in US history with a vulnerability to all of the hazards of old age. Once it was clear Trump was going to be the Republican nominee - and he got in early with his declaration- it should have been clear that a younger, sharper candidate capable of shredding Trump in public, while maintaining the party's policy programme would have been ideal, indeed might secure the Presidency for 8 not just 4 more years.

That said, it is now up to the Democrats to hammer Trump on everything that he is weak on, not just his character. As Heather Cox said in the interview I posted earlier today, the Republican Party is promoting policies on Abortion, Gun Control and Corporate Tax cuts which are not popular, and which leaves Trump vulnerable IF the focus is on the policies he wants that the US public does not, and that is without even bringing in the scorched earth proposals in Project 2025.

It is all to play for, will the Democrats play it right? And play it rough?

[Stavros]

Another Question For My Fellow Posters: President Joe Biden says he's not leaving,and will remain in the race til the end,even though most polls have him trailing Donald Trump. Do you think that by him staying the course,is an attempt by him and his campaign
to squash all the calls from Democrats for him to step aside and let somebody else run in his place?

I recommend the interview Christian Amanpour had with Heather Cox which I posted earlier today. Cox points out that the only time something similar happened in recent memory (well, mine at least!) was when LBJ in 1968 declined to run in November, and thew the Democrat Party into chaos, with Hubert Humphrey becoming their candidate and losing to Nixon. I recall the chaotic scenes in Chicago, aggravated by protests over the Vietnam War, and the divisions within the Democrats who at that time in the 1960s were discovering 'sectional' politics like it was a new addiction, but with the impression that the party was so divided against itself it was unfit for office, something that persisted to scuttle George McGovern's chances in 1972 -and note too that when the Republicans lost power, it was due to their own behaviour not some external shock.

Everything that happened in the 1960s -'race riots', Martin Luther King, alive in 1963, dead in 1968, Gay Liberation, Feminism, the Voter Registration and Rights Acts, and the humiliation of Nixon between 1973-74 became the foundations of the 'fightback' from the Republican Party, and each time it has met a setback, it has re-doubled its efforts and radicalized its policy agenda so that today the TEA Party 'radicals' look pathetic compared to Trump and Project 2025.

Often in politics, power is lost by the people who have it because of their own failures, not through some external cause -if Biden loses in November, you can't blame it on a pathological liar, convicted criminal and puppet of the autocrats -it will be the Democrats own fault.

Add to that a media that has enabled Trump to bluff his way through blatant crime and contempt for the US political system, and the tragic complicity of the Supreme Court, and the US is truly in peril, the damage that Trump can cause of a kind that will cost a generation of Americans some of the fundamental freedoms that evidently were taken for granted, if not from the 1960s then since 1776.

[filghy2]

Yes, Biden is telling them they have no one else to to turn to and that they need to fall in line.

Basically, it's a game of chicken where Biden has the advantage because everyone knows that if they put public pressure on him and he still refuses to go it will make things even worse.

[filghy2]

*-If you don’t count things like immigration and inflation.

Ignoring the age problem and deciding to run again has been the major misjudgement, but I think failing to take those two issues seriously enough were also bad misjudgements. I know Trump sabotaged the border deal, but it was stupid to wait until the election year to act. They were also warned at the time that the stimulus was too big.

The consistent pattern has been that rather than recognise problems and change course to deal with them, they have tried to dismiss the issue.

It was Dean Phillips who ran against Biden, not Doug Jones.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

I recommend the interview Christian Amanpour had with Heather Cox which I posted earlier today. Cox points out that the only time something similar happened in recent memory (well, mine at least!) was when LBJ in 1968 declined to run in November, and thew the Democrat Party into chaos, with Hubert Humphrey becoming their candidate and losing to Nixon. I recall the chaotic scenes in Chicago, aggravated by protests over the Vietnam War, and the divisions within the Democrats who at that time in the 1960s were discovering 'sectional' politics like it was a new addiction, but with the impression that the party was so divided against itself it was unfit for office, something that persisted to scuttle George McGovern's chances in 1972 -and note too that when the Republicans lost power, it was due to their own behaviour not some external shock.

Everything that happened in the 1960s -'race riots', Martin Luther King, alive in 1963, dead in 1968, Gay Liberation, Feminism, the Voter Registration and Rights Acts, and the humiliation of Nixon between 1973-74 became the foundations of the 'fightback' from the Republican Party, and each time it has met a setback, it has re-doubled its efforts and radicalized its policy agenda so that today the TEA Party 'radicals' look pathetic compared to Trump and Project 2025.

Often in politics, power is lost by the people who have it because of their own failures, not through some external cause -if Biden loses in November, you can't blame it on a pathological liar, convicted criminal and puppet of the autocrats -it will be the Democrats own fault.

Add to that a media that has enabled Trump to bluff his way through blatant crime and contempt for the US political system, and the tragic complicity of the Supreme Court, and the US is truly in peril, the damage that Trump can cause of a kind that will cost a generation of Americans some of the fundamental freedoms that evidently were taken for granted, if not from the 1960s then since 1776.I saw the interview of Historian Heather Cox Richardson that she did with Christian Amanpour that you posted earlier,it was very informative and she made alot of good points. Donald Trump and the people at Project 2025 vision fthe United States is very dark and downright terrifying. Agree: that often in politics power is lost by the people who have it due to their own failures,that is the why the Democrats need to do everything they can over the next four months to things around. And also agree the news media has enabled Donald Trump to bluff his way through despicable crimes and contempt for the US Political System,and US Supreme Court has also helped him by giving him absolutely immunity to do whatever he wants. And the United States and Democracy is in peril,from the damage Donald Trump can cause that will cost a generation of Americans the fundamental freedoms that were taken for granted.

[filghy2]

So, here we are now and barring some unforeseen circumstances, the Democrats are stuck with Biden.

Or they could pray for divine intervention.
“If the Lord Almighty came down and said, ‘Joe, get out of the race,’ I’d get out of the race,” Biden said. “The Lord Almighty’s not coming down.”
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/05/democrats-response-biden-interview-00166691

[Stavros]

People who believe in God might want to explain the creation of Volcanoes, Donald Trump and Malaria. On that basis, I don't think God's judgment is valid.

Looks like this issue is, at it were, dead and buried, unless....

[Stavros]

The good reasons for Harris, without explaining how. One does point out that were Biden to drop out and Newsom win the Convention Harris would have to re-register as a resident of Washington DC.

Nothing wrong with the arguments, it is the process that is at fault -or as said before, Biden wins but doesn't stay the course and Harris becomes President when he can no longer do the job.

Would Trump agree to a public 'debate' with Harris? Should she tempt him into one?

Opinion: It’s Time to Get Used to the Idea of President Kamala Harris (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/opinion-time-used-idea-president-010314221.html)

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Prominent Democrats calling for President Joe Biden to step aside,are getting louder everyday. And his performance in the sitdown with ABC News really didn't do anything to squash those calls. https://www.axios.com/2024/07/06/list-house-democrats-biden-withdraw-2024-campaign

[Stavros]

And another one -in the last week I have seen more positive articles on Kamala Harris than I have seen in four years. Some feeding going on, methinks (setting aside the relentlessly negative articles on Harris and Biden in the Telegraph).

What would a Harris candidacy mean for the elusive independent woman voter? | US politics | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/jul/07/independent-female-voters-kamala-harris)

[KnightHawk 2.0]

It will be interesting too see over the next two weeks,how many more Democrats from Congress and the Senate will be calling for their leader President Joe Biden to step aside,and let someone else run at the top of the ticket. And how many will be standing with and telling him to stay in the race,and will it cause a rift in the Democratic Party?.And both sides eventually settling their differences and coming together and support their nominee,and helping him defeat Donald Trump and his enablers in November.

[Fitzcarraldo]

The media will not stop piling on until Biden leaves the race.

Meanwhile, they have no qualms about Trump being the Republican candidate.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

The media will not stop piling on until Biden leaves the race.

Meanwhile, they have no qualms about Trump being the Republican candidate.Completely agree,it's 24/7 nonstop with the newspapers and news media piling on Joe Biden. But those same newspapers and news media aren't for calling for Donald Trump to step aside.

[filghy2]

The media will not stop piling on until Biden leaves the race.

Meanwhile, they have no qualms about Trump being the Republican candidate.

Looks like you are progressing from stage 1 to stage 2

1459431

[filghy2]

This article makes a good counter-argument.
https://www.natesilver.net/p/blaming-the-media-is-what-got-democrats
"But some critics seem shocked that the New York Times, for instance, isn’t acting as a partisan organ for the Democratic Party. That wouldn’t serve the interests of the public, however, it certainly wouldn’t serve the interests of the Times — and if the past two weeks are any indication, it wouldn’t serve the interests of the Democratic Party anyway. The moment the Good Guys act like they have all the right answers — and that they are even entitled to tell “noble lies” when it suits the public interest — is when they start to become hard to distinguish from the bad guys."

[Fitzcarraldo]

Biden's reply:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-sends-letter-democrats-time-questions-end/story?id=111742809

14594641459465

[Stavros]

More Kamala love, a spirited contribution too=

Opinion: Racism, Sexism, Power—and the Case For and Against Kamala Harris (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/opinion-racism-sexism-power-case-084511643.html)

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Biden's reply:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-sends-letter-democrats-time-questions-end/story?id=111742809

14594641459465A very thoughtful and fiery response from President Joe Biden.

[filghy2]

Biden's reply:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-sends-letter-democrats-time-questions-end/story?id=111742809

It's telling that nothing in that letter addresses the key question, which is why should voters believe he is capable of doing the job for another 4 1/2 years. It's all very backward-looking. I haven't seen a single Biden defender address this question. Apparently, we are all supposed to just ignore the elephant in the room.

[Stavros]

It is a sad, possibly tragic moment for the US, when a proven liar, convicted criminal and someone who promises a day of dictatorship is even running for the Presidency with support from a party he has, historically, never been part of, with a compliant media whose focus is not on the threat posed by Trump and his agenda, which after all contains policy commitments that most Americans don't want.

At the very least, vote Biden to get Harris, in year one or two. Was that always the agenda? Consider the way in which Hillary Clinton became the candidate, a decision made long before the Primaries. The only question might be, how soon after the Inauguration can Joe be convinced to retire?

[Fitzcarraldo]

It's telling that nothing in that letter addresses the key question, which is why should voters believe he is capable of doing the job for another 4 1/2 years. It's all very backward-looking. I haven't seen a single Biden defender address this question. Apparently, we are all supposed to just ignore the elephant in the room.

That's the job of the campaign. No one is ignoring Biden's age. It's the only thing anyone is paying attention to.

[Fitzcarraldo]

It is a sad, possibly tragic moment for the US, when a proven liar, convicted criminal and someone who promises a day of dictatorship is even running for the Presidency with support from a party he has, historically, never been part of, with a compliant media whose focus is not on the threat posed by Trump and his agenda, which after all contains policy commitments that most Americans don't want.

At the very least, vote Biden to get Harris, in year one or two. Was that always the agenda? Consider the way in which Hillary Clinton became the candidate, a decision made long before the Primaries. The only question might be, how soon after the Inauguration can Joe be convinced to retire?

Exactly. If Harris the replacement candidate, the succession is already assured.

[filghy2]

At the very least, vote Biden to get Harris, in year one or two. Was that always the agenda? Consider the way in which Hillary Clinton became the candidate, a decision made long before the Primaries. The only question might be, how soon after the Inauguration can Joe be convinced to retire?

Doesn't this beg the obvious question: if Biden would be prepared to step down in her favour in a year or so, why is he not prepared to do so now? If he isn't intending to serve out another term, and people know and accept this, why is he even running? If (as you claim) people are happy to vote for Biden knowing they are really getting Harris, then why would they not be equally happy to vote for her directly?

[blackchubby38]

That's the job of the campaign. No one is ignoring Biden's age. It's the only thing anyone is paying attention to.

The problem is not Biden's age, its whether he has the mental acuity and physical capability to not only campaign for President, but be an effective leader for another 4 years. I mean it wasn't the media who told Democratic governors that Biden needs to be in bed at 8:00 PM, those was his words.

[blackchubby38]

The people who are complaining about the media, what else do you want them to do in regards to Trump. For a majority of his administration and after it, they have covered all of his crimes and transgressions. To the point, I have seen some of those same people wondering if that coverage has taken away the media's attention from the Biden's administration's successes. Most Americans realize the potential threat to democracy a second Trump term would pose. It is not the media's fault that the Republican base didn't get the message. Or if they did, they just don't care.

The media is not supposed to be a cheerleader for whoever currently resides in the White House. The second it does that, it ceases to be a free media and it becomes a state sponsored one.

[filghy2]

The problem is not Biden's age, its whether he has the mental acuity and physical capability to not only campaign for President, but be an effective leader for another 4 years. I mean it wasn't the media who told Democratic governors that Biden needs to be in bed at 8:00 PM, those was his words.

There were also sources from his office that said he was okay from 10am to 4pm, but not so good other times. I'm sure Putin and Xi Jinping would not be so ungentlemanly as to start a crisis outside of these hours.

https://www.axios.com/2024/06/29/two-bidens-trump-debate-2024-president

[filghy2]

PS: it's not adequate to just respond that Trump is worse. If Republicans are nominating someone who is not fit for the job that is not a reason for Democrats to also do so. It makes it even more important to nominate someone who is capable of both campaigning effectively and doing the job for the next 4 years.

[Fitzcarraldo]

PS: it's not adequate to just respond that Trump is worse. If Republicans are nominating someone who is not fit for the job that is not a reason for Democrats to also do so. It makes it even more important to nominate someone who is capable of both campaigning effectively and doing the job for the next 4 years.

It's also not adequate to say that Biden should drop out without naming a replacement. The candidate can't be a hypothetical more competent person. Even the Democrats who have been most vocal about Biden stepping down have been very quiet about who they think should step up, and not one has actually stepped up.

Announcing to the world that you have no faith in your own candidate isn't a very effective strategy for winning an election.

[filghy2]

It's also not adequate to say that Biden should drop out without naming a replacement. The candidate can't be a hypothetical more competent person. Even the Democrats who have been most vocal about Biden stepping down have been very quiet about who they think should step up, and not one has actually stepped up.

Announcing to the world that you have no faith in your own candidate isn't a very effective strategy for winning an election.


For obvious reasons, nobody is going to step up unless Biden indicates he's willing to step down, so that's a circular argument.

I'm not sure who the best replacement would be, but I think we are at the stage where it's better to acknowledge the problem and try to do something, rather than remain in denial and keep sleepwalking toward disaster. "Ignore all the bad polls, we are doing fine" is not a very good strategy for winning elections.

Also, if you really believe that it doesn't matter if Biden can't serve until 2029 because Harris can take over, then aren't you effectively saying that she would be a reasonable replacement?

You are also missing the point that there is huge downside risk here. Biden has clearly declined over the past 4 years, so there's no reason to think it can't get worse. It's common in elderly people for decline to start out gradually and then accelerate at some point.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Here is an article from Politico.com on who could replace President Joe Biden,if he ultimately decides to step aside. https://www.politico.com/interactives/2024/democrats-biden-replacement-pros-cons/

[Fitzcarraldo]

Here is an article from Politico.com on who could replace President Joe Biden,if he ultimately decides to step aside. https://www.politico.com/interactives/2024/democrats-biden-replacement-pros-cons/

Not seeing any inspirational candidates there. Whitmer keeps saying she has no interest in running now, as does Newsom. It'd be a pity to start a campaign with a lie.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Not seeing any inspirational candidates there. Whitmer keeps saying she has no interest in running now, as does Newsom. It'd be a pity to start a campaign with a lie.California Governor Gavin Newsom and Michigan Gretchen Whitmer are both part of President Joe Biden's reelection campaign,and aren't interested in running right now. Agree it definitely would be.

[filghy2]

Not seeing any inspirational candidates there.

As opposed to the current candidate? It's a pretty low bar to clear.

[filghy2]

Whitmer keeps saying she has no interest in running now, as does Newsom. It'd be a pity to start a campaign with a lie.

As opposed to pretending that Biden is fine and perfectly capable of being President for another 4 years?

[Fitzcarraldo]

As opposed to the current candidate? It's a pretty low bar to clear.

And yet here we are. I guess Biden can't count on your vote.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

President Joe Biden will be holding a news conference at the White House @ 6:30pm this evening. And will be interesting to see how Democrats in the House Of Representatives and US Senate respond to his performance in the coming days. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-news-conference-2024-campaign/

[filghy2]

And yet here we are. I guess Biden can't count on your vote.

You are demonstrating exactly why the party has got itself into this horrible position - finding excuses to ignore inconvenient evidence and insisting that everyone support the leader without question.

[Fitzcarraldo]

You are demonstrating exactly why the party has got itself into this horrible position - finding excuses to ignore inconvenient evidence and insisting that everyone support the leader without question.

I am not in any party. The type of doubt you are flogging cannot be assuaged.

There are two choices for this election. The race has always been close. If the Democrats switch candidates, that will actually increase doubt further, as it demonstrates an undeniable lack of confidence in their own choice. No candidate has ever popped up a few months before a presidential election and won it.

[Fitzcarraldo]

The more things change, the more they stay the same:
https://www.npr.org/2024/07/12/nx-s1-5036518/biden-trump-poll

[KnightHawk 2.0]

The longer the infighting goes on between President Joe Biden,his campaign and the White House on one side,and on the other side House and Senate Democrats calling for him to step aside,the more it benefits Donald Trump and his allies who will be using it to their advantage. President Joe Biden,House and Senate Democrats needs to find a way to come together,settle their differences and resolve this issue and keeping their eyes on the prize,which is telling voters about Donald Trump and the dark and horrific vision he has in store for the country,and the major threat he and his allies are to democracy. And also educating voters about Project 2025.

[filghy2]

The more things change, the more they stay the same:
https://www.npr.org/2024/07/12/nx-s1-5036518/biden-trump-poll

Only if you cherry-pick polls and ignore the overall trend. There's been around a 2% shift in Trump's favour in the polling averages since the debate.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/national/
https://www.realclearpolling.com/polls/president/general/2024/trump-vs-biden-vs-kennedy-vs-west-vs-stein

That's, that's not as big as some people thought, but it's still in the wrong direction when Biden was already lagging before the debate. He's not going to win by just winning the national vote, and he's now well behind in almost all the swing states.
https://www.realclearpolling.com/elections/president/2024/battleground-states

[filghy2]

No candidate has ever popped up a few months before a presidential election and won it.

There have been only two cases where a sitting president dropped out in the election year, and two data points are not enough to infer any general rule. Presumably, they dropped out because they thought they were going to lose anyway.
https://www.vox.com/politics/359431/biden-step-down-lbj-1968-heather-cox-richardson

There have been successful candidate changes in other countries. Only in America is it considered somehow impossible to change anything a few months out.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Only in America is it considered somehow impossible to change anything a few months out.

I believe we're talking about an American election.

It is not possible to remove your doubt. I have my own kind of doubt. Give me a name of a Democratic savior who can defeat Trump. The sacred polls have not revealed one.

[filghy2]

Give me a name of a Democratic savior who can defeat Trump. The sacred polls have not revealed one.

I refer you to my previous answer. It doesn't have to be the messiah, just someone with fewer downsides and more upside than the current guy. Being able to complete sentences seems like a basic requirement for a candidate.


For obvious reasons, nobody is going to step up unless Biden indicates he's willing to step down, so that's a circular argument.

I'm not sure who the best replacement would be, but I think we are at the stage where it's better to acknowledge the problem and try to do something, rather than remain in denial and keep sleepwalking toward disaster. "Ignore all the bad polls, we are doing fine" is not a very good strategy for winning elections.

Also, if you really believe that it doesn't matter if Biden can't serve until 2029 because Harris can take over, then aren't you effectively saying that she would be a reasonable replacement?

You are also missing the point that there is huge downside risk here. Biden has clearly declined over the past 4 years, so there's no reason to think it can't get worse. It's common in elderly people for decline to start out gradually and then accelerate at some point.

If Biden is your messiah, perhaps you might explain to us non-believers how you think he can rise from the dead.

[Fitzcarraldo]

You can't provide a name of a viable candidate. No one has. The Democrats have had 4 years to come up with an alternative, they have had polls telling them voters think Biden is too old, and they have had polls telling them voters don't want a Biden/Trump rematch. They have not produced a viable alternative.

I know you like imagining that there's a better candidate out there, but you can't name one.

Biden isn't my vision of a messiah, but he did save us from Trump in 2020, and he has actually been the best president of my lifetime, although no one wants to give him credit. And he has put himself out there as a candidate. Now he doesn't even get credit for that.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Twenty Democratic Representatives have called for President Joe Biden to step aside,however none of them have up come up a viable candidate to replace him at the top of the ticket. Over a year ago President Joe Biden announced his campaign for reelection,and if the Democratic Representatives didn't think that he wasn't up too the task of serving and completing a second term?,they should have expressed their concerns and chosen another candidate,one they thought had a better chance of defeating Donald Trump over a year ago. And with the election only three and a half months away,it is too late to replace him and nominate another candidate. The Democratic National Convention is over a month away,where President Joe Biden will more than likely win the nomination. And all this bickering and nitpicking within the Democratic Party isn't helping them,it's doing the opposite.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Here's what Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders had to say: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/bernie-sanders-biden-democratic-nominee-oped-bickering-nitpicking-rcna161714

[Fitzcarraldo]

This will complicate matters:
https://apnews.com/live/election-biden-trump-campaign-updates-07-13-2024

(Link title is misleading. At current time, it provides live updates regarding someone apparently shooting at Trump at a rally in Pennsylvania.)

[KnightHawk 2.0]

This will complicate matters:
https://apnews.com/live/election-biden-trump-campaign-updates-07-13-2024

(Link title is misleading. At current time, it provides live updates regarding someone apparently shooting at Trump at a rally in Pennsylvania.) Yeah it definitely will.

[filghy2]

You can't provide a name of a viable candidate. No one has. The Democrats have had 4 years to come up with an alternative, they have had polls telling them voters think Biden is too old, and they have had polls telling them voters don't want a Biden/Trump rematch. They have not produced a viable alternative.

I know you like imagining that there's a better candidate out there, but you can't name one.

Biden isn't my vision of a messiah, but he did save us from Trump in 2020, and he has actually been the best president of my lifetime, although no one wants to give him credit. And he has put himself out there as a candidate. Now he doesn't even get credit for that.

And you can't explain how Biden can turn things around, or how he's going to be able to do the job for another 4 years.

It's weird that you are blaming this situation on everyone but the man primarily responsible. Biden announced he was running again in April 2023, preempting any viable alternative. Nobody wanted to run because no sitting president has failed to get the nomination if they wanted it, and if they had run they would have been panned by people like you for undermining the president. There was no process for finding the best candidate - it came down to one man's decision.

If Biden had recognised the realities of his age and condition last year he could have ended his career with dignity and the party would have had an orderly process to determine the best successor. Now those things are almost impossible.

You are also exaggerating Biden's electoral appeal. He won the Electoral College quite narrowly last time, despite getting huge help from the pandemic. No pandemic and Trump would almost certainly have won. Biden has much bigger negatives now.

[Fitzcarraldo]

And you can't explain how Biden can turn things around, or how he's going to be able to do the job for another 4 years.

He can't turn it around. Nothing will satisfy the naysayers, as you well demonstrate, even though you can't vote in the election. He may be able to do the job for another 4 years, or he may not. That's why there's a well-established succession plan.

Joe Biden is the acted, electing president. He followed the rules and went through the primary process. There was one challenger who made no impact and whose name I've already forgotten. How is it Joe Biden's fault that his party has neither truly opposed him or truly supported him?

I am not exaggerating Biden's electoral appeal--I am saying that I have seen no alternative who does better. But he won the electoral college and had a large margin in popular vote. Any Democrat will have difficulty with the electoral college.

[filghy2]

How is it Joe Biden's fault that his party has neither truly opposed him or truly supported him?

They were supporting him until two weeks ago - maybe too uncritically. You seem to be in some parallel universe where you can't see any problem with a declining 81 year old running for President.

Anyway, there's no point in further discussion as we're just going round in circles. The Trump shooting is going to shift attention away from this for a while. Things were ugly enough already; now it's likely to get even worse.

[MrFanti]

:iagree:

[blackchubby38]

Twenty Democratic Representatives have called for President Joe Biden to step aside,however none of them have up come up a viable candidate to replace him at the top of the ticket. Over a year ago President Joe Biden announced his campaign for reelection,and if the Democratic Representatives didn't think that he wasn't up too the task of serving and completing a second term?,they should have expressed their concerns and chosen another candidate,one they thought had a better chance of defeating Donald Trump over a year ago. And with the election only three and a half months away,it is too late to replace him and nominate another candidate. The Democratic National Convention is over a month away,where President Joe Biden will more than likely win the nomination. And all this bickering and nitpicking within the Democratic Party isn't helping them,it's doing the opposite.

Did you ever stop to think that the reason why they didn't express their concerns a year ago was because they were unaware of how much he has declined mentally. Or maybe he was fine last year, but since then has started a gradual decline and what we saw during the debate was the first public evidence of that decline.

There is an article by NY Mag, entitled "The Conspiracy of Silence to Protect Joe Biden". Its behind a paywall, so I haven't read it and I won't post the link. So there could be a reason why these Democratic Representatives were unaware of Biden's condition.

But there could be a less nefarious reason too. When you take into consideration how many members of Congress actually get to meet with the President on a daily basis, maybe all or some of those 20 representatives didn't have the opportunity to see first hand what Biden's mental condition was like.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Did you ever stop to think that the reason why they didn't express their concerns a year ago was because they were unaware of how much he has declined mentally. Or maybe he was fine last year, but since then has started a gradual decline and what we saw during the debate was the first public evidence of that decline.

There is an article by NY Mag, entitled "The Conspiracy of Silence to Protect Joe Biden". Its behind a paywall, so I haven't read it and I won't post the link. So there could be a reason why these Democratic Representatives were unaware of Biden's condition.

But there could be a less nefarious reason too. When you take into consideration how many members of Congress actually get to meet with the President on a daily basis, maybe all or some of those 20 representatives didn't have the opportunity to see first hand what Biden's mental condition was like.Yes i have thought about. And since that terrible performance in the debate over two weeks ago,President Joe Biden has been campaigning in multiple states to prove to those twenty Democratic Representatives that he can serve a second term. And agree maybe all or some of them didn't have the opportunity to see what his condition was like. And since President Joe Biden remains adamant about staying in the race,even though he's trailing in most battleground states,do you think they will continue to urge him to step aside or start supporting and help him turn things around?.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Looks like the infighting continues within the Democratic Party,with members of congress sending a letter to the DNC asking them to delay the virtual rollcall. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/group-house-democrats-pushes-delay-biden-nomination-rcna162164

[filghy2]

Did you ever stop to think that the reason why they didn't express their concerns a year ago was because they were unaware of how much he has declined mentally. Or maybe he was fine last year, but since then has started a gradual decline and what we saw during the debate was the first public evidence of that decline.

There is an article by NY Mag, entitled "The Conspiracy of Silence to Protect Joe Biden". Its behind a paywall, so I haven't read it and I won't post the link. So there could be a reason why these Democratic Representatives were unaware of Biden's condition.

But there could be a less nefarious reason too. When you take into consideration how many members of Congress actually get to meet with the President on a daily basis, maybe all or some of those 20 representatives didn't have the opportunity to see first hand what Biden's mental condition was like.

Here's a non-paywalled article on a similar theme. Not only has his inner circle been shielding Biden from public scrutiny, but it seems they may have been shielding him from views or advice they thought we wouldn't want to hear.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/02/biden-campaign-debate-inner-circle-00166160

I think there were signs that he had cognitive problems before the debate. Many people gave him the benefit of the doubt because the evidence was a bit mixed and they didn't want to help Trump. After the debate, most people joined the dots and the pattern became clear. Perhaps they should have looked more critically beforehand.
https://www.vox.com/politics/358877/biden-age-debate-media-coverage

That said, it's absurd to shift the primary blame from Biden and his inner circle, who were obviously best placed to know. If these Congress members had raised concerns before the primaries it would have been futile. They would have been derided and dismissed, just as Dean Phillips was.

[blackchubby38]

Yes i have thought about. And since that terrible performance in the debate over two weeks ago,President Joe Biden has been campaigning in multiple states to prove to those twenty Democratic Representatives that he can serve a second term. And agree maybe all or some of them didn't have the opportunity to see what his condition was like. And since President Joe Biden remains adamant about staying in the race,even though he's trailing in most battleground states,do you think they will continue to urge him to step aside or start supporting and help him turn things around?.

From what I'm seeing, there's a good chance Biden might drop out by end of the weekend.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

From what I'm seeing, there's a good chance Biden might drop out by end of the weekend. Completely Agree. The writing is on the wall for his campaign.

[filghy2]

From what I'm seeing, there's a good chance Biden might drop out by end of the weekend.

They've lined up all the big guns. In a parliamentary system, he'd be gone already.
https://www.vox.com/politics/361597/biden-drop-out-democrats-obama-pelosi-schumer

[broncofan]

They've lined up all the big guns. In a parliamentary system, he'd be gone already.
https://www.vox.com/politics/361597/biden-drop-out-democrats-obama-pelosi-schumer
I watched the debate and thought he sounded awful. The only thing that made me hesitant at first about him going is that he is very likeable and Democrats have frequently vetted talented politicians who are accomplished and bright and who people can't relate to. There was a certain amount of stumbling and gaffe making that was endearing. And he has in the past had choppy performances and then uncharacteristically strong ones in public. He has passed the point of no return though, where the bright days aren't bright enough, and the days where he sounds cloudy and confused predominate.

I think the Democrats will need to put Kamala Harris first. The Bernie left like to make fun of her, the right wing doesn't like her, but I consider her likeable and capable. I don't care if she's told the same story about what is, unburdened by what has been (if you haven't seen the montages you can look them up)....who cares if she has this same peculiar line in a bunch of speeches. She's not the first and it's totally irrelevant.

BTW, what I mean about talented Democratic politicians I think is exemplified by Pete Buttigieg. No, he doesn't have a ton of experience. He's also gay and married to a man (which is preferable given his preference). He's sharp as a tack. Now, that doesn't mean people have to agree with every policy opinion he has, but he is the type of capable politician who really doesn't have a big base. People accuse him of being careerists and lob all sorts of attacks on his family. Democrats have had trouble nominating the most qualified people bc well, people are superficial. It's so easy to demonize someone and turn them into a joke (see Howard Dean). Instead, we end up with a guy with diminished and diminishing cognitive faculties, who has always had a fighting spirit and open personality. But we don't have a culture where we can necessarily choose someone who will be a great leader and nominate them knowing that the public will fall in line....

[filghy2]

I think the Democrats will need to put Kamala Harris first. The Bernie left like to make fun of her, the right wing doesn't like her, but I consider her likeable and capable. I don't care if she's told the same story about what is, unburdened by what has been (if you haven't seen the montages you can look them up)....who cares if she has this same peculiar line in a bunch of speeches. She's not the first and it's totally irrelevant.

I haven't seen a lot of her, but some of the dislike does not seem to be rationally-based, as with Hillary Clinton. I recall a successful politician who used the line "Yes, we can" a lot, so that can't be a substantive objection. Incidentally, he wasn't experienced either.

The more substantive objection is that she did poorly in the primaries last time. She probably wouldn't be first choice if they were starting from scratch, but I can see the argument that she might be the only feasible option at this stage.

Anyway, if Biden is refusing to stand down because he doesn't think KH is electable that's really on him: for not allowing an orderly process to find the best successor and for choosing her as VP (especially when he says he wasn't originally intending to run again). Even if he wasn't so bad a year ago, it was still a poor decision in risk assessment terms.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

The only person that should replace President Joe Biden at the top of ticket in the upcoming election,if he decides to step aside,is the current sitting Vice President Kamala Harris,who will energize the democratic base and voters and is more than qualified to be president. No other potential candidate even comes close. And she will mop the floor with Donald Trump in a public debate,because she will fact check and not let him get away with all the lies he tells every time he opens his mouth.

[broncofan]

I haven't seen a lot of her, but some of the dislike does not seem to be rationally-based, as with Hillary Clinton. I recall a successful politician who used the line "Yes, we can" a lot, so that can't be a substantive objection. Incidentally, he wasn't experienced either.

The more substantive objection is that she did poorly in the primaries last time. She probably wouldn't be first choice if they were starting from scratch, but I can see the argument that she might be the only feasible option at this stage.

Anyway, if Biden is refusing to stand down because he doesn't think KH is electable that's really on him: for not allowing an orderly process to find the best successor and for choosing her as VP (especially when he says he wasn't originally intending to run again). Even if he wasn't so bad a year ago, it was still a poor decision in risk assessment terms.
Yes, it was during that primary season that a lot of people started to take her less seriously. I'm not sure what happened or if she had a number of bad debate performances. I can't comment much about how she'll do except to say that I think there is unlikely to be an orderly process to choose a successor and she therefore would seem to be next in line based on the VPs role during presidential administrations.

Not to harp on Biden's decline and why he didn't stand down but I would guess that when people get to a certain age, they know they have suffered cognitive decline in some respects and have learned how to work around it. It's possible that the creeping deficits don't matter that much for overall performance in a job, but reach a critical mass where the person seems, on the whole, decrepit. And this is exactly where they lose insight into why it's a problem.

And it's interesting that we don't have a good measure of what kind of loss of performance matters and what doesn't. I'm somewhat interested in this subject, but we see it with baseball players and tennis players in their late 30s. In sports that demand elite reflexes, the best of all time can suddenly find themselves unable to compete with the top 50 or 100. Certainly other activities don't demand peak reflexes or physical endurance, but all sorts of cognitive parameters age at different rates and matter to different degrees depending upon what one is doing. Perhaps the wisdom of a statesman can withstand losses of short-term memory, if experience and judgment become more important. These too, can be eroded in time.

[broncofan]

if experience and judgment become more important. These too, can be eroded in time.
I should probably say temperance and judgment. But I'm curious what happens now. I did not listen to Trump's speech but I heard in real time from people I trust that it was a shitshow. I'm also curious whether people think Biden will end up stepping down. Not whether he should (seems to be a lot of agreement on that) but whether he eventually will.

[filghy2]

I should probably say temperance and judgment. But I'm curious what happens now. I did not listen to Trump's speech but I heard in real time from people I trust that it was a shitshow. I'm also curious whether people think Biden will end up stepping down. Not whether he should (seems to be a lot of agreement on that) but whether he eventually will.

Hard to say. Logically, politicians should bow out when they've clearly lost the confidence of their own party, but many convince themselves they are indispensable and try to hang on. He may dig in out of resentment at people trying to force him out (apparently, he has a grudge against Obama for persuading him not to run in 2016). The other thing is that the only way he can avoid a humiliating end to his career is to pull off an unlikely win, so he might think a 20-30% chance is still worth taking. It's a testament to Trump's weaknesses that the polls haven't been even worse.

What an appalling situation you are in. One candidate who struggles to complete sentences versus another who completes way too many sentences that are full of deranged nonsense. Once candidate who is deflated versus another who is ridiculously over-inflated.
One candidate whose party has lost faith in him versus another whose party has made him a demigod. The personality cult has gone off the charts since the shooting.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Is everybody happy now?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/president-joe-biden-drops-2024-presidential-race-rcna159867

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Is everybody happy now?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/president-joe-biden-drops-2024-presidential-race-rcna159867And right on cue,Donald Trump and his enablers in Congress and the US Senate are celebrating that President Joe Biden decided to step down. And now are hurling nasty attacks at Kamala Harris.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

From what I'm seeing, there's a good chance Biden might drop out by end of the weekend. You were right. President Joe Biden announced he is stepping down from his reelection campaign,and endorsed. Vice President Kamala Harris,and she is the right choose to replace him at the top of the ticket,nobody else is. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/live-blog/trump-biden-president-election-live-updates-rcna162646

[broncofan]

I am in a group chat where everyone thinks media bullies pushed biden out. The problem with that argument is that while there may be some bad faith bullies, there were also numerous people close to him that saw something and felt they couldn't remain quiet. And when these people starting talking to each other, the ball got rolling. And it took a while. But Obama is not saying something he doesn't believe bc donors want Joe out...or out of pettiness or mean-spiritedness. There were just too many people who must have been acting in good faith unless everyone is a liar or fraud. Too many people with diverse interests, of differing proximity to Biden, and without any obvious character problems.

There's also the possibility that he had a neurological exam to clear himself and received a diagnosis such as Parkinson's. I know that is speculation, but that's all I'm claiming it is. There were too many people telling him to drop out for it to have been a politically motivated "coup" as some melodramatic people would put it. And too many loyal to him as a human being, but not willing to remain quiet if they thought he showed signs of deterioration. We'll see what happens from here.

[filghy2]

I am in a group chat where everyone thinks media bullies pushed biden out.

Yet the other side thinks these same media were in a conspiracy to cover up his condition. These people are almost like mirror images of each other.

This episode has been like a litmus test for whether people are blind partisans or evidence-based analysts who are worth reading. Fortunately, all the people whose opinions I follow came out and said he should step down after the debate.

[filghy2]

There's also the possibility that he had a neurological exam to clear himself and received a diagnosis such as Parkinson's. I know that is speculation, but that's all I'm claiming it is.

It looks like people in his circle finally convinced him that he couldn't win and it was better to go now.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/21/why-biden-dropped-out-00170106

"When the campaign commissioned new battleground polling over the last week, it was the first time they had done surveys in some key states in more than two months, according to two people familiar with the surveys. And the numbers were grim, showing Biden not just trailing in all six critical swing states but collapsing in places like Virginia and New Mexico where Democrats had not planned on needing to spend massive resources to win.

With that knowledge and the awareness that more party elders, including more of his former Senate colleagues, would pile on the public pressure campaign, a sudden exit offered the president his best chance to make it appear that the decision came on his own terms. It was a face-saving move of high importance to Jill Biden, who, according to people familiar with recent conversations, was adamant that her husband’s dignity be preserved."

[blackchubby38]

So, are any of the Democrats going to apologize to Dean Phillips?

[Stavros]

If President Biden admits he has come to the end why remain in office? Should he resign with immediate effect?

The dignity with which he resigns his office bears comparison with the arrogance and lies of a convicted criminal who should also withdraw, from the Republican Party.

I met an American here in Germany who told me he thinks the US is deeply sexist and fears Harris will lose on that issue alone. I disagree, and on one level a younger, smarter candidate who knows more about the law than Trump, and should be able to cut his lies to shreds, could still win through.

Young vs old. Truth vs lies. The future vs the past.

is Harris what Americans want, in so divided and polarised a country?

i think most of us expected the unexpected this time around, and we got it. But we still don’t know what the next three months will produce.

[Stavros]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-ivanka-gave-thousands-previous-221247769.html

hilarious

[Fitzcarraldo]

If President Biden admits he has come to the end why remain in office? Should he resign with immediate effect?

Why should he? No candidate is compelled by law to run for a second term. That's ridiculous.

[Stavros]

Why should he? No candidate is compelled by law to run for a second term. That's ridiculous.

Competence is the factor at work. Can he manage for the next 6 months.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Why should he? No candidate is compelled by law to run for a second term. That's ridiculous.

Competence is the factor at work. Can he manage for the next 6 months.

Ridiculous.

[broncofan]

If President Biden admits he has come to the end why remain in office? Should he resign with immediate effect?
I understand the reasoning but I think that not running again when he is the incumbent shows the right amount of dignity. To resign his presidency would be to say that he is no longer cognitively fit to make the decisions of the chief executive and I think he is.

I acknowledge he has aged and deteriorated but the skills of running a campaign and convincing people you are ready to take on a full term are different from the skills necessary to close out nearly four years of work you've done.

I personally believe that if he were in a room being briefed about foreign intelligence matters that he would be more than capable of parsing what is important and making sound decisions. I actually think he would do it better than Donald Trump would, because it would be a matter of faithfully listening to what others have to say and understanding the main point. These are things Donald Trump, for instance, has shown no ability to do at his best. I do not think he is the person you want communicating a new vision or starting a campaign that is going to inspire voters. But I really do think that he is capable of carrying out the duties he was elected to perform.

[Stavros]

Ridiculous.

You never saw any media saying it? Not about my judgment, but theirs.

[Fitzcarraldo]

You never saw any media saying it? Not about my judgment, but theirs.

You're the one asking now. I mainly see Republicans saying it. Biden essentially announced his retirement at the end of the term. People get to announce retirement dates in advance of actual retirement. He didn't want to quit the campaign, but it became obvious he would receive no support from his party, so there was no point in continuing. With the party's abandonment, he truly had no chance of defeating Trump.

And yes, you can still nag and ask, "But is he still fit for office?" You can ask that about every president constantly, and if you get enough traction, maybe something will happen. But that doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

Also, if he can't finish his term, the vice president becomes president. There's no need to add drama.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

If President Biden admits he has come to the end why remain in office? Should he resign with immediate effect?

The dignity with which he resigns his office bears comparison with the arrogance and lies of a convicted criminal who should also withdraw, from the Republican Party.

I met an American here in Germany who told me he thinks the US is deeply sexist and fears Harris will lose on that issue alone. I disagree, and on one level a younger, smarter candidate who knows more about the law than Trump, and should be able to cut his lies to shreds, could still win through.

Young vs old. Truth vs lies. The future vs the past.

is Harris what Americans want, in so divided and polarised a country?

i think most of us expected the unexpected this time around, and we got it. But we still don’t know what the next three months will produce.The reason why President Joe Biden hasn't resigned from office,is because he wants to finish the reminder of his term and help Vice President Kamala Harris defeat Donald Trump. And i think that she is what most americans want.

[rodinuk]

Competence is the factor at work. Can he manage for the next 6 months.

Can you manage for the next 6 posts without screwing up the quote tags?:banana::banana:

[filghy2]

If President Biden admits he has come to the end why remain in office? Should he resign with immediate effect?

It's a reasonable question. Evidently he has good periods and bad periods. He can probably handle the normal business of government, but what if there's an unexpected crisis when he's having a bad period? What if he has to make a critical phone call to Putin or Xi Jinping and he loses his train of thought, as occurred in the debate?

I guess letting him serve out his term was the price of getting him to withdraw his candidacy, but it has disadvantages. If he resigned, KH would have the chance to show she can do the job. It would also avoid her having to spend the next 3 1/2 months defending his ability to do the job. He'll still be in the public eye, and there's obviously a risk of more senior moments.

[Stavros]

Can you manage for the next 6 posts without screwing up the quote tags?:banana::banana:

Apologies- I am away from home and not using a computer hence my own lack of competence.

[Fitzcarraldo]

If he resigned, KH would have the chance to show she can do the job. It would also avoid her having to spend the next 3 1/2 months defending his ability to do the job. He'll still be in the public eye, and there's obviously a risk of more senior moments.

It could also show that she can't do the job.

[filghy2]

It could also show that she can't do the job.

Still stuck at the anger stage?

[Fitzcarraldo]

Still stuck at the anger stage?

Why do you try to make everything personal? My comment was true.

Also, Biden didn't step aside because he thinks he can no longer handle the job. He stepped aside because he was forced to, which is obvious to everyone.

[filghy2]

Why do you try to make everything personal? My comment was true.

So was mine. Everything you've written on this topic has been either denial that Biden's decline is a problem or anger that other people were raising concerns about it.

It was also an odd comment given that Biden has endorsed her for the job and you had no problem previously with her being next in line.

[Fitzcarraldo]

So was mine. Everything you've written on this topic has been either denial that Biden's decline is a problem or anger that other people were raising concerns about it.

It was also an odd comment given that Biden has endorsed her for the job and you had no problem previously with her being next in line.

Bullshit. I expressed my opinions on Biden. You make bitchy remarks about me, not the topic.

If Biden resigns before the end of his term, Harris can't devote her full time to campaigning (and she doesn't officially have the nomination yet). It would be foolish for him to put her in that position now, and whatever she did as president would give the Republicans more ammo against her.

[MrFanti]

Just to spice things up in this historic (IMHO) election...

Black Lives Matter IS NOTon board with Kamala Harris:
https://blacklivesmatter.com/black-lives-matter-statement-on-kamala-harris-securing-enough-delegates-to-become-democratic-nominee/


Now, Democratic Party elites and billionaire donors are attempting to manipulate Black voters by anointing Kamala Harris and an unknown vice president as the new Democratic ticket without a primary vote by the public.

[filghy2]

Bullshit. I expressed my opinions on Biden. You make bitchy remarks about me, not the topic.

If Biden resigns before the end of his term, Harris can't devote her full time to campaigning (and she doesn't officially have the nomination yet).

Curiously, you never thought this was a problem for Biden, even though he has to be in bed by 8pm.

Good to know you are definitely not angry.

[Stavros]

Just to spice things up in this historic (IMHO) election...

Black Lives Matter IS NOTon board with Kamala Harris:
https://blacklivesmatter.com/black-lives-matter-statement-on-kamala-harris-securing-enough-delegates-to-become-democratic-nominee/

So who is the BLM candidate?

[filghy2]

Black Lives Matter IS NOTon board with Kamala Harris:


I doubt this will hurt her chances when the other side is trying to paint her as too left-wing. Weren't you the guy previously telling us that BLM didn't represent what black people think?

[filghy2]

So who is the BLM candidate?

The statement is actually objecting to the process rather than her being the nominee, though there would be no point in a virtual primary unless there is another candidate.

[filghy2]

I don't see how Trump can win in November unless he both retains his share of the Republican vote and increases his support among Democrat and undecided voters.

The analysis in this blog post shows the problem with your logic.
https://substack.com/home/post/p-146877086

"So far, support for Trump in 2024 is nearly identical to what it was at this time four years ago. The big change is how much less support Biden had this month than he did in July 2020 – nearly 10 points less. We see that difference reflected in the purple lines, which show the doubling of the number of “neither Biden nor Trump” voters who tell pollsters they are either undecided or would choose a third-party candidate. In other words, Trump has not grown his support, but Biden had lost much of his."
1461347

[Stavros]

The analysis in this blog post shows the problem with your logic.
https://substack.com/home/post/p-146877086

"So far, support for Trump in 2024 is nearly identical to what it was at this time four years ago. The big change is how much less support Biden had this month than he did in July 2020 – nearly 10 points less. We see that difference reflected in the purple lines, which show the doubling of the number of “neither Biden nor Trump” voters who tell pollsters they are either undecided or would choose a third-party candidate. In other words, Trump has not grown his support, but Biden had lost much of his."
1461347

The problem lies with the disclaimer made at the start of the article proving the rest is merely speculation.

What is fact is the existing record of Trump election officials already refusing to certify local elections, suggesting the worst is yet to come, though I don’t believe they have actually changed the vote, but the possibility of the Supreme Court ruling in Trump’s favour cannot be dismissed, even if Harris is a clear winner, as the issue is not what votes that count, but who counts the votes, as Stalin said. It makes for chilling reading because it is not speculation.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/swing-state-election-officials-pro-150000944.html

[filghy2]

The problem lies with the disclaimer made at the start of the article proving the rest is merely speculation.

1461456

[broncofan]

filghy i'll look more into it. i have to see what that number of undecideds or third party candidate will be in the swing states. Trump support has unfortunately been very sticky and very resistant to large losses of support. There is also some time to see how much more popular than Joe Biden Kamala might be.

disclaimer: i didn't read the blog post but i accept the premise that Trump might win without gaining support. But still a lot in play.

[broncofan]

some of these state polls when biden was still running are grisly looking. 5-10 percent deficits in states that he won in 2020. so there isn't a lot of updated data but I assume Kamala has some ground to make up.

[filghy2]

some of these state polls when biden was still running are grisly looking. 5-10 percent deficits in states that he won in 2020. so there isn't a lot of updated data but I assume Kamala has some ground to make up.

Nate Silver has just published his first take since Biden dropped out (although most of it only for subscribers). It's early days, but it looks like Kamala Harris has closed the gap in the national vote and in some of the battleground states, though there is still some ground to make up to win the Electoral College.
https://www.natesilver.net/p/nate-silver-2024-president-election-polls-model

[Stavros]

1461456

Have you nothing to say about the Trump election officials who are only interested in winning, and will use every tactic they can not to certify an election if they lose it, and it doesn’t matter by how many votes? And nothing to say about a Supreme Court that will almost certainly back Trump if the decision ends up with them? Yes, at the moment the figures are not good for Harris, but again, is Trump growing his voter base?

Months to go yet, and now there is even speculation Trump might drop Vance.

[Stavros]

Not sure if it is wise for Harris to trade insults with Trump. I would prefer her to ignore the ‘crappy’ rhetoric of a bitter, violent man, and focus on the positives and the future- a positive view of the US over the next 10 years, with rights and responsibility at the core, the sort of things Trump cannot deal with because he is only interested in revenge for attacks on him in the past, stealing as much money from the taxpayer as he can, and giving policy decisions to Christian Nationalists.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Not sure if it is wise for Harris to trade insults with Trump. I would prefer her to ignore the ‘crappy’ rhetoric of a bitter, violent man, and focus on the positives and the future- a positive view of the US over the next 10 years, with rights and responsibility at the core, the sort of things Trump cannot deal with because he is only interested in revenge for attacks on him in the past, stealing as much money from the taxpayer as he can, and giving policy decisions to Christian Nationalists.Completely agree with your post.

[Stavros]

Not sure if any comment is needed. The man is an embarrassment to everyone. Next to him, Kamala Harris looks and sounds like divine intervention.

Trump Campaign Attempts Damage Control Over Fiasco At Black Journalists' Conference (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-campaign-attempts-damage-control-222854409.html)

[KnightHawk 2.0]

Not sure if any comment is needed. The man is an embarrassment to everyone. Next to him, Kamala Harris looks and sounds like divine intervention.

Trump Campaign Attempts Damage Control Over Fiasco At Black Journalists' Conference (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-campaign-attempts-damage-control-222854409.html) Completely agree Donald Trump sure an embarrassment to everyone. And also agree that Vice President Kamala Harris does looks and sounds like divine intervention.

[Stavros]

Has Trump peaked? It looks like the momentum is with Harris, notably among women. Maybe turnout will be a strong factor, not to mention Trump zealots in States where they can delay or try to change the vote. And so far the Harris campaign has not screwed p.

Interesting...

John King breaks down how the race has changed since Biden’s exit (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/john-king-breaks-down-race-010724890.html)

[Stavros]

How to steal an election from the people who vote, courtesy of Stalin ('Its not the votes that count, but who counts the votes'), and Donald J Trump, aided by Cleta Mitchell, another lawyer from nowhere who was recruited by the White House and who, in that illegal phone call to Georgia showed she was ignorant of election law in that State, but has since, one assumes, educated herself.

Interesting, but chilling too

‘A different level than 2020’: Trump’s plan to steal election is taking shape | US elections 2024 | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/aug/12/trump-overturn-result-presidential-election-vote)

[Ben]

Completely agree Donald Trump sure an embarrassment to everyone. And also agree that Vice President Kamala Harris does looks and sounds like divine intervention.

Not a fan of either party. But I'd vote for the worst possible outcome. And that means: Kamala Harris. To me it's easy. Take 5 minutes and vote against -- against!!! -- the worst possible outcome. And, again, to me that means a Harris presidency.
From a left perspective one votes against the worst possible outcome and then gets on w/ real politics. Which is activism, organizing, educating... to bring about a better world.

[Ben]

As I previously pointed out: Not a fan of either party. But I'd vote against Trump to elect Kamala Harris. Plus it'd be a big step forward: finally a female president...
The Cult of Kamala - The American Conservative (https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-cult-of-kamala/)
Oh, I made a mistake in my previous post - ha ha! I wrote: "But I'd vote for the worst possible outcome. And that means: Kamala Harris." What I meant was I'd vote AGAINST the worst possible outcome. That means: K. Harris.

[EJSPANGLER]

Harris all the way the week she was nominated I made a $500 donation

[Stavros]

Is Trump making a big mistake by using AI, be it Harris or Taylor Swift? I don't know much about Swift but I looked up her legal options and they are fairly clear, as her image was used without her consent. Or would she have a bigger impact by appearing on stage in Chicago to endorse Harris? But I believe she is doing concerts in London. The link is below. As for Harris being a Communist, well that just means that making stupidity normal remains Trump's only mode of campaigning. Do people actually believe this sort of thing?

"According to Jessica Silbey, a professor at Boston University School of Law and an expert in intellectual property and constitutional law, Trump’s fake endorsement post likely violates Swift’s right of publicity — the legal power to control how your name, image and likeness are used by others.
“Everyone enjoys a right of publicity,” says Silbey, who has written extensively about the internet. “This kind of use — being made to say and seen as believing things you don’t — is at the core of the right.”".
Can Taylor Swift Sue Donald Trump Over AI-Generated False Endorsement? (billboard.com) (https://www.billboard.com/pro/can-taylor-swift-sue-donald-trump-ai-generated-false-endorsement/)

[Stavros]

"The recently convicted felon told supporters at his campaign event that in bigger cities, "almost all run by Democrats," Americans can't even "walk across the street to get a loaf of bread. You get shot. You get mugged. You get raped. You get whatever it may be.""
Trump bails on interview when challenged on Michigan 'crime wave' stats: local newspaper (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/trump-bails-on-interview-when-challenged-on-michigan-crime-wave-stats-local-newspaper/ar-AA1pbMM6)

Weird, eh? As for the facts, which state is the most dangerous to live in? From Forbes:



Property crimes have increased in recent years, while the rate of violent crimes has decreased.
While murders surged during COVID-19, there was a 6.1% year-over-year decline in murders and non-negligent manslaughter in 2022.
More than 75% of murders in 2020 were committed with a firearm
New Mexico, the most dangerous state, has more than six times the rate of violent crime per 1,000 people than New Hampshire, the least dangerous state.
Southern states account for two of the five most dangerous U.S. states.
States in New England account for four of the five safest U.S. states."
States With The Worst Crime Rates – Forbes Advisor (https://www.forbes.com/advisor/legal/criminal-defense/crime-rate-by-state/)

[Stavros]

Money, money money. The staggering sums being raised for both the Harris and Trump campaigns begs the question: where does it come from, where does it go?

I have no idea how transparent the Harris campaign is, but with Trump the only connection to transparency is the letter 'T'.

Trump is a master at moving money around, but surely the law must at some point intervene? How about now? For example -

"While campaigns have wide discretion in deciding how to spend their funds, the Federal Election Campaign Act (“FECA”) and Federal Election Commission (“FEC”) regulations do place certain restrictions on the use of campaign funds. In general, campaign funds may be used only for campaign-related expenses, and campaign funds may not be used for the personal use of a candidate or federal officeholder."
Permissible Use of Campaign Funds | Steptoe (https://www.steptoe.com/en/news-publications/political-law-blog/permissible-use-of-campaign-funds.html)

Now read on, about 'Red Curve Solutions' and much else

"Following his 2020 election loss, Trump received more than $250 million (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/01/31/trump-raised-250-million-since-election-to-challenge-outcome-heres-where-most-of-the-money-will-actually-go/?sh=5d4683d88824) in donations from supporters to fuel an “election defense fund.” He divided that money between two campaign entities: his 2020 presidential campaign committee, which he subsequently converted into a freestanding PAC called Make America Great Again (MAGA) PAC (https://www.fec.gov/data/committee/C00580100/?tab=about-committee), and a second entity called Save America PAC (https://www.fec.gov/data/committee/C00762591/?tab=about-committee), which is a so-called “leadership PAC (https://www.fec.gov/campaign-finance-data/leadership-pacs-and-sponsors-description/)” (a type of PAC that a federal candidate can establish for the ostensible purpose of supporting other candidates).Beginning in early 2021, Trump began spending (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/27/us/politics/trump-cases-legal-fund.html) funds from these two PACs on his myriad legal proceedings — including personal matters."
Trump’s Use of Campaign Funds to Pay Legal Bills | Brennan Center for Justice (https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/trumps-use-campaign-funds-pay-legal-bills)

Somebody call the cops!

Trump’s businesses are raking in millions of dollars from Republican political campaigns – including his own | CNN Politics (https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/23/politics/trump-businesses-campaign-spending-invs/index.html)

Trump’s Committees Appear to be Concealing Legal Expense Payments | Campaign Legal Center (https://campaignlegal.org/update/trumps-committees-appear-be-concealing-legal-expense-payments)

[Luke Warm]

The FEC in America is toothless, they can’t do anything to discipline law breakers (Federal Election Commission). Running for office is a great racket, you can take in virtually unlimited sums of cash, and there is a lot of leeway for how it’s spent (for example, paying yourself and friends large salaries, food and travel costs, reimbursing yourself high rental fees for office space, etc).

[Stavros]

Stalin, again: 'It's not the votes that count, but who counts the votes'...

"A Christian political operative has teamed up with charismatic preachers to enroll election skeptics as poll workers across the country, using a Donald Trump (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/donaldtrump)-aligned swing state tour to enlist support in the effort.Joshua Standifer, who leads the group called Lion of Judah, describes the effort as a “Trojan horse” strategy to get Christians in “key positions of influence in government like Election Workers”, which will help them identify alleged voter fraud and serve as “the first step on the path to victory this Fall”, according to his website.
...“Just imagine: it’s election night. Chaos is happening. The polls are closing – they go and volunteers are getting kicked out,” said Standifer. “But what if we had Christians across America, in swing states like Wisconsin, that were actually the ones counting the votes?”". (My emphasis in bold).
Christian group recruits ‘Trojan horse’ election skeptics as US poll workers | US elections 2024 | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/sep/04/christian-election-poll-workers)

[MrFanti]

Not a fan of either party
This right here! :iagree:

[Stavros]

How to steal an election using the law, or an interpretation of the law. And if you break it, or bend it, dare someone to do something about it.

Texas' Right-Wing Leaders Are Going To ‘Scary’ Lengths To Intimidate Political Rivals (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/texas-wing-leaders-going-scary-185258051.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly91ay55YWhvby5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALkhaAIs_i-6CFmOhYMexZHttiWjUlCQsGoEp8JdDwdAlQW_52AoGJjoiSuwr Yp4507L0F5hbXcE5lh9QInmsixU-QB3qWU2p1uKmZUEDLPLJSzW7vixNJ8fIBMsf-JOyLEeOL5tB-SS39xJ7EnoFiFy-yeP-l9E9uiL1KvF2nDb)

[KnightHawk 2.0]

How to steal an election using the law, or an interpretation of the law. And if you break it, or bend it, dare someone to do something about it.

Texas' Right-Wing Leaders Are Going To ‘Scary’ Lengths To Intimidate Political Rivals (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/texas-wing-leaders-going-scary-185258051.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly91ay55YWhvby5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALkhaAIs_i-6CFmOhYMexZHttiWjUlCQsGoEp8JdDwdAlQW_52AoGJjoiSuwr Yp4507L0F5hbXcE5lh9QInmsixU-QB3qWU2p1uKmZUEDLPLJSzW7vixNJ8fIBMsf-JOyLEeOL5tB-SS39xJ7EnoFiFy-yeP-l9E9uiL1KvF2nDb)That is some scary ass shit.

[Stavros]

Ahead of tonight's 'debate' or rather, Q&A with two candidates for President- I expect some or all of these issues to be raised with the candidates.

Will Sharks and Hannibal Lecter be mentioned? Here are some guides-
Donald Trump and Sharks: An Annotated Timeline – Southern Fried Science (https://www.southernfriedscience.com/donald-trump-and-sharks-an-annotated-timeline/)
Trump's Hannibal Lecter Love Affair: A Complete Timeline (rollingstone.com) (https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/donald-trump-hannibal-lecter-timeline-1235070008/)

Kamala Harris will no doubt refer to her career as a Prosecutor in California, as discussed here-
Kamala Harris’ Record on Criminal Justice: What to Know | The Marshall Project (https://www.themarshallproject.org/2024/07/21/kamala-harris-criminal-justice-record)
Why Harris is talking about her history as a prosecutor : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2024/07/29/nx-s1-5048532/harris-prosecutor-trump-election)
What 9 cases from Kamala Harris’ past say about her record as a California prosecutor | LAist (https://laist.com/news/politics/what-9-cases-from-kamala-harris-past-say-about-her-record-as-a-california-prosecutor)


Inflation -the record is here
Annual inflation rate U.S. 2023 | Statista (https://www.statista.com/statistics/191077/inflation-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/)
Current US Inflation Rates: 2000-2024 (usinflationcalculator.com) (https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/)

Economic Growth 1961-2023
GDP growth (annual %) - United States | Data (worldbank.org) (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=US)

Abortion
Majority in U.S. Disapprove of Supreme Court Abortion Decision Overturning Roe v. Wade | Pew Research Center (https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2022/07/06/majority-of-public-disapproves-of-supreme-courts-decision-to-overturn-roe-v-wade/)
interesting article here-
Pregnancy Is Riskier Than Abortion | OpenMind Magazine (https://www.openmindmag.org/articles/the-myth-abortion-harms-pregnant-people?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw3P-2BhAEEiwA3yPhwC7yY6Yq9Hssw_FVskD3xEVGZl44K9b9NtymY 5BmkN69oSjkkF1peRoCmLkQAvD_BwE)

Immigration, legal and illegal
Key findings about U.S. immigrants | Pew Research Center (https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/07/22/key-findings-about-us-immigrants/)
Map the Impact of Immigration: U.S. Economic Data & Numbers [MAP] - New American Economy (americanimmigrationcouncil.org) (https://data.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/map-the-impact/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw3P-2BhAEEiwA3yPhwJ20BkWPkcpB1CLE1ZOOWLdrsoaHkezfoe4bL QDutl9tttxgxw73AhoC8E0QAvD_BwE)
(above link is interactive, State by State)
PolitiFact | Trump’s ridiculous claim that “millions” of immigrants came illegally from jails, mental facilities (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2024/jun/06/donald-trump/fact-check-trumps-ridiculous-claim-that-millions-o/)

Afghanistan
The 'Doha Accord' of February 2020, signed by President Trump and the Taliban (but not the Afghan Govt)

"The agreement stipulated fighting restrictions for both the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) and the Taliban (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban), and provided for the withdrawal of all NATO forces from Afghanistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_U.S._troop_withdrawal_from_Afgha nistan) in return for the Taliban's counter-terrorism commitments. The US agreed to an initial reduction of its force level from 13,000 to 8,600 within 135 days (i.e. by July 2020), followed by a full withdrawal within 14 months (i.e. by 1 May 2021) if the Taliban kept its commitments. The United States also committed to closing five military bases (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_base) within 135 days, and expressed its intent to end economic sanctions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_sanctions) on the Taliban by August 27, 2020. The agreement was welcomed by Pakistan, China, Russia and India,[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Taliban_deal#cite_note-theprint-4)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Taliban_deal#cite_note-7)[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Taliban_deal#cite_note-8) and unanimously endorsed by the UN Security Council (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council).[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Taliban_deal#cite_note-9)".
United States–Taliban deal - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Taliban_deal#:~:text=The%20a greement,-Zalmay%20Khalilzad%20and&text=The%20provisions%20of%20the%20deal,Taliban%20 and%20the%20Afghan%20government.)

[Stavros]

A few takeaways
-Policy - yes neither candidate was strong on policy detail, but too much detail and the point is lost as the mind wanders: in this kind of debate, with time restrictions, policy needs to be an effective soundbite, and Harris won because she was able to distil some of her policies re housing, small business start-up options in a clear way, where all Trump could off was some vague platitude about doing even better than last time.

-I linked issues above, and needless to say Trump talked verifiable rubbish about the rate of inflation and immigration.

- Harris does have the problem that the Democrats have been in the White House since 2021, and there are questions about why they have not done the things Harris says she wants to do, it is a weakness I think, but I don't know the Trump campaign will take control of this in further debates.

- But surely Americans by now are tired of hearing whining on and on about the 2020 election when contrary to what he claimed, neither he nor his supporters in three years have offered a shred of evidence to prove he won it.

-Trump was asked to sum up his campaign and offered nothing, choosing to attack Harris, big fail.

Score: Harris 1, Trump 0

Last thought:

America, keep your dogs safe, your cats closer. You never know what your neighbour wants for lunch...

[Stavros]

Not raised
-Education

Not debated properly
-Gun control

Policies Harris could have introduced
-a National ban on child marriage (she could also have asked Trump when he first informed law enforcement that Jeffrey Epstein was having sex with underage girls)

-guarantees of internet freedom, given that Project 2025 wants all pornography banned

No serious discussion of the relationship between the Federal Govt and the States, after all, if policies are going to be 'returned' to the States what is the point of an executive, rather than just a ceremonial Presidency, or Congress? And if policy, for example, on Abortion, is 'returned' to the State, how, if at all, can the Federal Govt get it back?

[Stavros]

What is worse, this purrfectly daft story, or that so many people believe it?

JD Vance tries to rehabilitate his image with cats in the most bizarre, racist way | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jd-vance-cats-haitian-immigrants-ohio-musk-b2610193.html)

[KnightHawk 2.0]

What is worse, this purrfectly daft story, or that so many people believe it?

JD Vance tries to rehabilitate his image with cats in the most bizarre, racist way | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jd-vance-cats-haitian-immigrants-ohio-musk-b2610193.html)The more
Shady JD Vance talks,the more he exposes himself for the racist sexist jackass that he is.

[KnightHawk 2.0]

I watched last night's debate and it showed the contrast between the campaigns. Vice President Kamala Harris was well prepared and answered all of the questions the moderators asked her,and all of her answers were very descriptive and detailed and fact checked Donald Trump on every lie he told. The Convicted Felon Donald Trump was unprepared and didn't answer any of the questions,and was rambling about nonsense for over 90 minutes. And also liked when Kamala Harris said the following about Donald Trump: He was fired by 81 million people,World Leaders were laughing at him,Vladimir Putin would eat him for lunch. And the reason why people leave his rallies because they're bored. Those four comments really got under his skin and was very irritated and didn't have a comeback answer,and was annihilated,embarrassed,humiliated and smoked. Now the american people know the reason Donald Trump didn't want too debate Kamala Harris,because he knew that she would expose him for the charlatan and fraud that he is. And when the debate ended,Vice President Kamala Harris Campaign said they were ready for a second debate,meanwhile Donald Trump ran to the Fox Propaganda Channel to whine,bitch and moan about the moderators and ABC. And looking forward to seeing Minnesota Governor Tim Walz taking Shady JD Vance to the woodshed in the Vice Presidental Debate.

[Stavros]

I don't get it. Yes, the auto industry has taken a hammering in Michigan, that was always going to be the case with more robotics, the transfer of production out of state even out of country -Reagan after all was the President who 'shipped jobs to Mexico' as JD Vance once complained (his target was Senator Joe Biden)- and I also assume some of the residents of Saginaw moved to where the jobs are, one of the most common features of social life in the USA.

But what do they think Trump is going to go that will bring jobs and local prosperity back? Tariffs? Lower taxes? They had the protest vote in 2016, are so many people stuck in a doom loop that they hear the same old drivel from the Beast and vote the same way again? What did Trump do for them the first time round? I am not saying Harris can transform Saginaw, because their problem is structural not incidental. Or maybe some new industry will save them?

And is it really 'America in decline' when these structural shifts have affected local economies for more than 100 years of capitalism?

Trump’s message of American decline resonates in Michigan - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0nerwe8rro)

[Stavros]

Springfield, Ohio, where a Haitian worker can earn $13 dollars an hour in an Amazon warehouse that used to pay locals $21 an hour. Do the maths, then ask what would Trump have done if he were the owner of the business and he found a way to cut costs and increase revenues? Then ask what he will do if President, remove all the Haitian immigrants from the country and re-hire the locals -on $13 an hour? 'They' are not taking locals jobs, 'they' are being given jobs by the local employers, it is called Capitalism, but I think these days the party of Reagan has rejected free market economics for Fascism, an extreme form of Nationalism that replaces markets by 'national' concepts of loyalty based on 'values' and in the American case, the colour of a person's skin; or what Tucker Carlson once called 'Legacy Americans'.

The same kind of rumour mill that ground out anti-Muslim garbage when three girls were murdered in a dance class in the UK in July -note that there was butchery of animals but not in Springfield, and not by a Haitian, and 170 miles away from Springfield. But hey, Trump saw it on the tee-vee so I guess he thinks he knows....

The article is here in full before it is shuttered behind the Telegraph's paywall. There are also photos in the link, including of American Nazis.


Telegraph
Trump’s right, there is a migrant problem in Springfield, Ohio – just not the one he thinks

Trump’s baseless tales of Haitians stealing pets are masking real concerns in the Midwest city
Edward Helmore, (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/e/ea-ee/edward-helmore/) in Springfield, Ohio12 September 2024 • 3:32pm

In Springfield, Ohio, a quiet, low-lying city of just under 60,000 people on the banks of the Mad River, migrants are eating pet cats and dogs.
At least that is what the former president of the United States believes.
Donald Trump’s claims (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/politics/2024/09/11/cats-and-dogs-pets-springfield-ohio/) during Tuesday’s presidential debate will almost certainly go down as one of his most memorable moments from the campaign – and perhaps even a turning point in the election (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us-election/).
As fanciful as they are (based largely on a medley of social media posts and half-truths (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/11/trump-pet-eating-haitians-debate-claim-facts/)), some people in Springfield are not prepared to take the risk.
Alexis House, 21, said locals are now “trying to keep their pets in instead of letting them roam around”.
“Almost everyone believes the rumours because there have been a lot of other problems.”
Some of the problems Alexis refers to are no doubt related to the about 15,000 immigrants who have settled from Haiti (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2024/03/20/ron-desantis-threatens-send-haiti-migrants-marthas-vineyard/) over the last three years – drawn here in part by the lure of low-paid jobs at a massive Amazon distribution warehouse – and are reshaping the city.
Tensions with the local community have led to groups of neo-Nazis (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/12/proud-boys-neo-nazis-protesters-stormed-us-capitol/) marching in the streets in recent weeks.

On a visit on Wednesday, The Telegraph found that Trump’s intervention had exacerbated a situation now familiar across the US (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/27/texas-defend-itself-invasion-migrant-crisis-joe-biden/).
The local police department was forced to clarify that it had “no credible reports or specific claims of pets being harmed, injured or abused by individuals within the immigrant community”.
Rob Rue, Springfield’s mayor, says the rumours have allowed “national rhetoric to come into our community and divide us”.
Viles Dorsainvil, director of Springfield’s Haitian health and support centre, says that Trump has stirred the pot.
“It’s devastating for the Haitian community in Springfield and it’s created fear for our members, who are scared for their lives and the lives of their kids, especially after what’s been happening in Haiti,” Mr Dorsainvil says.

The Haitian Times reported that some families were keeping their children home from school, while others said they were subject to bullying, assaults and intimidation in front of their homes amid racist rhetoric on social media.
“We are not here to create harm in the community, we are here to work and send money back to our families (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/haiti-food-insecurity-gang-violence-famine-hunger/),” said Mr Dorsainvil. “But we fear this could escalate to violence.”
Rose-Thamar Joseph, who works at the centre, pointed out that the community numbering a quarter of Springfield’s population had come to the city because of the cheap housing and the opportunity to work, often at a nearby Amazon distribution warehouse, an auto parts or metal work plant.
With many coming under work-authorised Temporary Protected Status and others under more opaque circumstances through Mexico, the last thing the community needed or deserved was to be the focus of national political attention.
“They’re in double-trouble here because they’re foreign and they’re black in a closed-minded section of the country that is expanding maybe too quickly,’ said Valerie Hinch, a retired community worker who was dining at the Rose Goute Haitian restaurant in Springfield’s southside.
“My New York friends are sending me messages, ‘Val, be careful of your cats.’ But it’s not funny, it’s sad and ignorant.”
Several Haitian men flatly denied that animals were being taken. “It’s bull----,” said Joy, from Petionville in Port-au-Prince (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/11/us-military-evacuation-embassy-staff-haiti-violence/), Haiti’s capital, who declined to fully identify himself.
But tensions in Springfield are real, and with them come unwelcome displays. Last month, 12 people carrying swastika flags and rifles while wearing ski masks walked around the downtown area during the Springfield Jazz & Blues Fest.

The pet abduction rumours in Springfield appear to have begun 170 miles away in Canton, where police charged 27-year-old Allexis Ferrell with animal cruelty and disorderly conduct after she allegedly “did torture, kill, and eat a cat in a residential area in front (of) multiple people” on Aug 26.
According to the Associated Press, a post on a private Facebook page, “Springfield Ohio Crime and Information”, read: “Warning to all about our beloved pets & those around us!! My neighbour informed me that her daughter’s friend had lost her cat. She checked pages, kennels, asked around, etc.
“One day she came home from work, as soon as she stepped out of her car, looked towards a neighbour’s house, where Haitians live, & saw her cat hanging from a branch, like you’d do a deer for butchering, & they were carving it up to eat. I’ve been told they are doing this to dogs, they have been doing it at Snyder Park with the ducks & geese, as I was told that last bit by Rangers & police. Please keep a close eye on these animals.”
Meanwhile, a post on Facebook by a woman named Annie Schlicher also circulated, claiming that someone at her work had heard from a relative who claimed he had seen a Haitian man catch and cut the head off a goose in front of children in a Springfield park.

Pet abduction rumours may be no more than a mask for deeper resentments.
A US government survey estimates that 10 million migrants have crossed the US-Mexico border (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/28/joe-biden-mexican-border-congress/) in the past four years. Just 1 per cent are unable to work, compared to 5 per cent of the indigenous US population owing to drug addiction or disability. Democrats now concede that without that labour force influx and mobility, wage pressures created by unfilled jobs in the absence of migrants would lead to higher inflation.
‘Used to be no problem finding a job’

Rolland Foor and his partner Maggie Crooks, both 52, said they had been living in their SUV – heavily decorated with pro-Trump slogans – since he lost his job as a forklift operator. “Me and my co-workers were told at the end of our shift we were done,” Mr Foor said.
“I was making $21 an hour. The company brought in 15 Haitians (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/haiti/) and we found out they were taking our jobs. All because of $21 an hour versus $13 an hour. We lost everything due to them coming in here. There used to be no problem finding a job.”
In turn, he said, he knew many people who had lost their homes because landlords had turned out tenants so they could raise the rent by housing migrants on TPS government support. “There’s tons of anger in town,” Mr Foor said.
“I’m always willing to accept migrants coming in just so long as they meet the requirements of becoming a citizen and not just here, kiss my ass, you’ve got citizenship, which I feel is what Joe Biden did (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2024/06/03/biden-administration-quietly-offering-mass-amnesty-migrants/),” Ms Crooks added. “He sold us out.”

Carlton Corbin, a security guard, said the government benefits to migrants were not available to Americans. “That’s not right. We can’t get the help they’re getting for just coming over here?
“That’s un-American. Be legit. Don’t come over here and take our resources and then there’s none for people who work their asses off to have it.”
Jessica Hannah, 41, said her discomfort with the newcomers was not racial but cultural. “I get they’re seeking political asylum but, man, we’re getting to the point where it’s so overrun.”
Her partner said he had lost a dog: “I don’t know what happened,” Ms Hannah said. “Really don’t have a clue.”
As it stands, any missing pet in Springfield is likely to be blamed on the Haitians.
“There will be people that believe it, no matter how ludicrous and stupid it is,” John Kirby (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/09/17/joe-biden-to-expand-un-security-council-john-kirby-china/), the White House national security spokesman, said Wednesday. “And they might act on that kind of information, and act on it in a way where somebody could get hurt. So it needs to stop.”
But it is the politicians who are capitalising on the false rumours. One billboard, by Arizona’s Republican Party and depicting four kittens, urges people to “Vote Republican!” and “Eat Less Kittens.”".
Why Springfield believes Trump’s claims migrants are eating their cats (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/us/news/2024/09/12/springfield-ohio-haitians-eating-pets-immigration-problem/)

[Fitzcarraldo]

Where are the media calls for Donald Trump to step down following his disastrous debate performance?

[blackchubby38]

Where are the media calls for Donald Trump to step down following his disastrous debate performance?

1. Of all the reasons for Donald Trump to step down, his disastrous debate performance isn't one of them.

2. If he did drop out, depending on who replaces him, there is a good chance that they will beat Kamala Harris in November. That would be the last thing that some in the media would want to happen.

3. For the last time, Biden was the President of the United States, not your significant other. Stop getting defensive about what happened to him.

[MrFanti]

1. Of all the reasons for Donald Trump to step down, his disastrous debate performance isn't one of them.

2. If he did drop out, depending on who replaces him, there is a good chance that they will beat Kamala Harris in November. That would be the last thing that some in the media would want to happen.

3. For the last time, Biden was the President of the United States, not your significant other. Stop getting defensive about what happened to him.

Trump isn't going to step down for the same reason Biden didn't
-Too huge of an ego.

The only way that Trump will step down is if his own party gangs up on him like the Democrats ganged up on Biden to step down.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Trump isn't going to step down for the same reason Biden didn't
-Too huge of an ego.

The only way that Trump will step down is if his own party gangs up on him like the Democrats ganged up on Biden to step down.

Biden didn't step down?

[Stavros]

For me the key aspect of this story, is the one that is not being discussed: how the Republican Party has gone from being a party of Ronald Reagan and Free Markets, or Market Forces if you prefer, to replacing Markets with Government, in effect the opposite of what Reagan wanted. Just as JD Vance has chastised Biden for voting to 'ship jobs to Mexico' without mentioning that it was Reagan's law, so today there is no discussion around a Trump Presidency deciding who gets to work in Springfield, Ohio, and deporting the workers who did not invade the town and demand jobs, but were hired in a free market. And were better for the employers doing what Capitalists have been doing even before George Washington was born: exploiting workers.

So is Trump if he wins going to send goons all round the USA to round up foreign workers, some Asians and Latinos, but mostly Black of course, who will work for $13 an hour rather than $21? Or to put it another, 'we are from the Government, and we are here to tell you who to hire'.

And how much will this economic and social 'structural adjustment' (as the IMF used to call it) cost the taxpayer?

‘They’ve destroyed the place’: Trump repeats racist, anti-immigrant lies | Donald Trump | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/13/trump-repeats-lies-haitian-immigrants)

[Stavros]

So now we know (but honestly, is anyone surprised?) it was garbage from the start, but nobody in a responsible position could be bothered to do any due diligence but declare before millions of Americans 'I saw it on television'.

In July there were riots in the UK when it was claimed a Muslim asylum seeker who had arrived on a boat across the English Channel had stabbed and murdered three young girls in a dance class. The killer was born in Cardiff, was not a Muslim, and the cost of those lies has been measured in lives ruined, people in prison, buildings damaged. But are the reputations of Nigel Farage or anyone else who spewed this drivel seriously damaged in return?

Are Trump and Vance now going to publicly apologize for smearing Springfield? As if. The moral collapse of these people may not even be complete, as every time they appear to have hit rock bottom, they find new depths of depravity to parade in front the the American people, and for that matter the rest of the world, who still cannot believe a pathological liar and convicted criminal thinks he is qualified to be President, supported in this endeavour by people who would be on permanent berserk mode if it were a Democrat.

"On Friday, a Springfield woman, Erika Lee, apologized for rumors about Haitian immigrants eating pets that resulted from a post she wrote on Facebook claiming that the friend of a neighbor’s daughter lost her cat – and then found the animal strung up outside the home of a Haitian family.Lee now says she had no firsthand knowledge of the claim. The neighbor referenced in the post, Kimberly Newton, revealed that she also had heard the story from an acquaintance and not her daughter.
Lee said she was filled with regret and insists she never intended to put a target on the backs of the Haitian community."
More bomb threats hit Springfield, Ohio, after Trump elevates false claims about Haitians | Ohio | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/sep/14/more-bomb-threats-hit-springfield-ohio-after-trump-elevates-false-claims-about-haitians)

[blackchubby38]

Biden didn't step down?

He didn't, he decided not to run for re-election. There's a difference. Although I have a hunch that he will step down if Kamala wins in November.

[Stavros]

JD Vance now admits he 'creates stories', and really doesn't care if they are true or false. This is from someone who attacks 'the Woke left' for the Foucault inspired view that identity is whatever you want it to be, thus denying the immutable reality of being a biological man or woman -only in this case, truth is as flexible as Vance wants it to be, Foucault be damned.

And just as he attacked Joe Biden as a Senator who through the NAFTA 'shipped jobs to Mexico' without also mentioning other Senators who voted for it, Republicans like McConnell, Gingrich and Grassley, not to mention the man most enthusiastic about it, Ronald Reagan, so in the case of Springfield we have this drivel-

"Vance ultimately defended his endorsement of the lies about Springfield as calling attention to the immigration policies at the White House while Harris has served as vice-president to Joe Biden.“I’m not mad at Haitian migrants for wanting to have a better life,” Vance said. “We’re angry at Kamala Harris for letting this happen.”".

Then this (my emphasis in bold) :

"About 15,000 immigrants began trickling into Springfield – a city of about 60,000 – in 2017 to work in local produce packaging and machining factories. They have been particularly in demand at a vegetable manufacturer and at automotive machining plants whose owners were experiencing a labor shortage in the wake of the Covid-19 pandemic.
The Republican governor of Ohio (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ohio), Mike DeWine, said on Sunday on ABC’s This Week that Haitians in Springfield “are here legally”.
“What the employers tell you is, you know, we don’t know what we would do without them,” DeWine said. “They are working. And they are working very hard. And they’re fitting in.”".

Anyone care to remind Vance Harris was not President in 2017, but Trump was.

The man is an idiot, and he doesn't care if everyone knows it. Like John Cage said of his music 'I have nothing to say, and I'm saying it'. At least that was zen. Vance has zilch.

[Fitzcarraldo]

He didn't, he decided not to run for re-election. There's a difference. Although I have a hunch that he will step down if Kamala wins in November.

Why would he do that? He was denied a transition period for his term. I can't imagine he would handicap his successor the same way.

[pantybulge69]

1. Of all the reasons for Donald Trump to step down, his disastrous debate performance isn't one of them.

2. If he did drop out, depending on who replaces him, there is a good chance that they will beat Kamala Harris in November. That would be the last thing that some in the media would want to happen.

3. For the last time, Biden was the President of the United States, not your significant other. Stop getting defensive about what happened to him.

Whoever you're assuming would beat Harris in November, are probably the very same candidates that had their incompetent asses handed to them by Trump in GOP's Republican Primary.

Why do you think Trump is the lead GOP runner for US President from the GOP side ? The other GOP candidates are apparently worthless competition.

[Ben]

Trump Goes FULL FASCIST In JAW DROPPING Moment | The Kyle Kulinski Show (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxVv1rE5ijM)

[Stavros]

Truth is the first casualty of war, but who is the enemy? Is it Biden and Harris, as Trump says? In the link below you can see Stephen Miller first claiming crime in Venezuela is down 60% because it has exported its criminals/gangs to the US, but when asked to authenticate the figure, dodges the answer by launching into a tirade that if anything is designed to cover up the absence of facts, just as the questioner suggests Miller is accepting what the Maduro govt says. As for Venezuela being a 'poor country' -yes, it has made a mess of its economy, but with some of the largest reserves of petroleum in the world, poor is not quite right.

Whatever, who cares?

(Scroll down to get to the Miller exchange).

Mark Cuban Puts Stephen Miller On The Spot: 'Does Donald Trump Make Products Overseas? Yes Or No?' In Tariff Debate (yahoo.com) (https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/mark-cuban-puts-stephen-miller-145629921.html)

[Stavros]

Here is a curious situation -JD Vance says he has not discussed abortion with Trump after Trump in the TV 'debate' also said he had not discussed it with Vance, yet Abortion has become one of the most talked about policies in the US election. Can you imagine the two of them not talking about immigration, or taxes or Ukraine?

Or maybe they just don't talk to each other...suggesting...

Meanwhile, it is good to see Kamala Harris going on the offensive on this policy

Harris says Trump’s anti-abortion policies to blame for death of mother in Georgia – live (theguardian.com) (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2024/sep/17/donald-trump-shooting-assassination-attempt-kamala-harris-us-politics-news-latest-updates)

But again, what is the point of discussing a 'Federal Abortion Ban' if the decision is for States to decide? In other words, on Abortion, the President and Congress are literally irrelevant -and powerless.

[rodinuk]

You seem to think Vance is something more than a cheap warm-up act for Trump…

[Stavros]

You seem to think Vance is something more than a cheap warm-up act for Trump…

He is, I understand, a millionaire, and they don't come cheap. The more worrying thing is that Vance is assumed to be the Brains to match Trump's Brawn, though one wonders if he ever thinks deeply about the things that he says. Or maybe he has realized that just as Trump can say any old rubbish as if it is true, so can Brains...

Analysis: Vance warns calling a candidate a ‘fascist’ can lead to violence but doesn’t mention that’s what Trump calls Harris (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/analysis-vance-warns-calling-candidate-172637410.html)