FINA found the fairest solution to the transgender issue in sports

[MrFanti]

FINA members voted 71.5% in favor of a policy that requires transgender swimmers to have completed their transition by age 12 to be able to compete,
https://sports.yahoo.com/fina-found-the-fairest-solution-to-the-transgender-issue-in-sports-183133124.html

[Fitzcarraldo]

https://sports.yahoo.com/fina-found-the-fairest-solution-to-the-transgender-issue-in-sports-183133124.html

Oh yeah, so many transition before age 12. How fair.

[Stavros]

The link below has a detailed and fascinating look at Lia Thomas to answer the question, does she have an advantage over 'cis-female' swimmers? Looked at in terms of the statistics available for Thomas pre-and-present transition, and in comparison with other male and female swimmers, he answer is no, with some intriguing quotes-

"Describing Katie Ledecky, who is cis, Olympic champion swimmer Ryan Lochte even said (https://www.si.com/olympics/2016/06/01/olympics-2016-road-to-rio-katie-ledecky-swimming): “She swims like a guy. Her stroke, her mentality – she’s so strong in the water. I’ve never seen a female swimmer like that.”

"... it would be strange to contend that trans women should only be allowed to compete in women's sports as long as they never win anything."
Lia Thomas: Trans swimmer didn’t have unfair advantage, data shows | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html)

[diddyboponTOP]

People should only be allowed to play their born gender, Let's go with boxing a male will always be at the shit out of a female around the same height and weight class
A mtf trans has no business fighting a born female. You can't argue with facts.

[SanDiegoPervySage]

That leaves the question for many, is that encouraging kids to transition before 12, even if that's not their intention?

Also, Kobe and Lebron joined the league at 18. Lia Thomas transitioned at like 20, 21. maybe a year or so younger than Kobe when he won his first ring. No way in hell is anyone going to convince me or anyone with common sense that she doesn't have an advantage over biological females. If Kobe transitioned at 18, he would've crushed the WNBA. Lisa Leslie, Cheryl Swoops and all the other top female players from that era wouldn't a chance against Kobrina. We're letting emotions cloud common sense for the sake of inclusion and not hurting feelings. Lia Thomas is built like Michael Phelps. It doesn't matter if her testosterone levels are down. Her body has already grown as a male. Muscle mass, bone density, bone structure, conditioning all as a male. Hormones don't just wash that stuff away.

If you're placing 500th place and then you change literally your entire pool of opponents and then you suddenly start placing first almost literally overnight, and the factor of those results were simply based on changing the sex of your competition, that tells you all you nee to know.

Amanda Nunes is one of the hardest hitters in women's MMA. You got trans women blasting actual females in the face in the octagon , totally demolishing them because they transitioned at like 26 years old.

[Nikka]

can I swim?

[MrFanti]

Amanda Nunes is one of the hardest hitters in women's MMA. You got trans women blasting actual females in the face in the octagon , totally demolishing them because they transitioned at like 26 years old.
Interesting as I do not follow MMA.....

[Lovly-red]

Amanda Nunes is one of the hardest hitters in women's MMA. You got trans women blasting actual females in the face in the octagon , totally demolishing them because they transitioned at like 26 years old.

First off she's not trans. Even if she was like you claim. She was 22 when she made her strike force debut as a woman in 2011. While there are trans mma fighters. As far as I know. No major promotion in the states has any on there roster.

[Lovly-red]

People should only be allowed to play their born gender, Let's go with boxing a male will always be at the shit out of a female around the same height and weight class
A mtf trans has no business fighting a born female. You can't argue with facts.

This I agree with, and im trans my self. If any one doubts this. I remember playing boys vs girls in high school. Even at 16 we had the leg up in stick and ball sports, and our female sports teams typically made the playoffs. While our male teams were lucky if they finished above 500.

[MrFanti]

No major promotion in the states has any on there roster.
What about Fallon Fox?

[Lovly-red]

What about Fallon Fox?

According to google she's retired, and hasn't fought since 14.

[diddyboponTOP]

Fallon is a perfect example.
If Fallon fights men in mma it's all good.
She would break any GG!

[Castor_Troy05]

Fallon is a perfect example.
If Fallon fights men in mma it's all good.
She would break any GG!

Apart from the fights she lost?

[MrFanti]

Alana McLaughlin?

I think the biggest question has nothing to do with strength.
And that's whether or not this decreases opportunities for genetic women in all sports?

[SanDiegoPervySage]

First off she's not trans. Even if she was like you claim. She was 22 when she made her strike force debut as a woman in 2011. While there are trans mma fighters. As far as I know. No major promotion in the states has any on there roster.

I wasn't saying she was trans. Not sure how half my post deleted, but I was saying Amanda Nunes has some of the heaviest hands in women's MMA and even she's not out here breaking skulls. I was talking about Fallon Fox who grew up as a male, went through puberty completely as a male, served in the military as a male meaning she trained and was tested on male physical standards. Assuming she took combatives while in the military, she went up against primarily males. She transitioned after doing all of that. That's simply an unfair advantage, even if she went against someone like Meisha Tate who was wrestling with the boys in school

[rodinuk]

.... Not sure how half my post deleted...

I had a look at the history but the only change was to add the paragraph comprising two sentences at the end, nothing's been deleted unless you're referring to the abridged quoted version by the respondent.

[Stavros]

Alana McLaughlin?

I think the biggest question has nothing to do with strength.
And that's whether or not this decreases opportunities for genetic women in all sports?

There is plenty of discussion on the relative merits of strength and other factors giving one sportsperson 'an unfair advantage' over others. Is it possible to play Major League Basketball if the player is 5' 5" tall? Does a player who is 6'9" have 'an unfair advantage'? Did Michael Phelps have an 'unfair' advantage over his competitors because he was so tall and his arms could touch the finishing line before any other swimmer even if they were close?

Again, the question to be answered needs proof in every instance -did the Transgendered athlete win because she has retained sufficient strength from her male body to beat the women? Is this because hormone replacement that would reduce the testosterone men have, is countered by the 'performance enhancing' drugs that athletes have been known to take before and during a competition? Do menstruating women perform poorly when playing other women, let alone Transgendered women? Some might cite this, but is it not a fact that most of the Gymnasts competing at a young age do not menstruate? Does this give them an 'unfair' advantage over older girls who do?

The specifics suggest that there is a lot more to the issues around 'unfair advantage' than are met with facts, so one returns to that devastating conclusion -It's fine for transgendered people to take part in competitive sports, as long as they don't win.

[MrFanti]

There is plenty of discussion on the relative merits of strength and other factors giving one sportsperson 'an unfair advantage' over others. Is it possible to play Major League Basketball if the player is 5' 5" tall? Does a player who is 6'9" have 'an unfair advantage'? Did Michael Phelps have an 'unfair' advantage over his competitors because he was so tall and his arms could touch the finishing line before any other swimmer even if they were close?

Again, the question to be answered needs proof in every instance -did the Transgendered athlete win because she has retained sufficient strength from her male body to beat the women? Is this because hormone replacement that would reduce the testosterone men have, is countered by the 'performance enhancing' drugs that athletes have been known to take before and during a competition? Do menstruating women perform poorly when playing other women, let alone Transgendered women? Some might cite this, but is it not a fact that most of the Gymnasts competing at a young age do not menstruate? Does this give them an 'unfair' advantage over older girls who do?

The specifics suggest that there is a lot more to the issues around 'unfair advantage' than are met with facts, so one returns to that devastating conclusion -It's fine for transgendered people to take part in competitive sports, as long as they don't win.

I don't think strength is the ultimate issue "at stake".
The question still remains, does this reduce opportunities for genetic women in sports?

I'd love to hear genetic female lesbian athletes view on this.

[MrFanti]

Now another element of this debate is trans-men athletes.
Will this be an issue as well?

If not, then why not?

[Stavros]

I don't think strength is the ultimate issue "at stake".

The question still remains, does this reduce opportunities for genetic women in sports?



What criteria are you using to decide what constitutes an 'opportunity'?

For example, how would you make the decision in the case of Olympic sports such as Dressage, Shooting, or Archery?

[MrFanti]

What criteria are you using to decide what constitutes an 'opportunity'?

So let's say college scholarships to women's rugby or women's basketball.
Will genetic women feel 'slighted' if say 2 of 5 scholarships go to trans athletes?

[Luke Warm]

My understanding is that the NCAA has already ruled on this, years ago (trans athletes are allowed). And so has the IOC (allowed). I think the IOC ruled in 2003, and NCAA ruled in 2010 (I may have that wrong) but the point is that this was already decided many YEARS ago.

So then… Where are all the trans athletes who are sweeping the awards? It must be a pretty massive number, considering all the media attention? And since the rules have been in place for years already? There must be a long list of names. Anybody?

Lets keep things in perspective. Right now the biggest area of contention is high school sports, because (correct me if I’m wrong) the policies are decided by individual states. It’s a tiny handful of trans athletes who would be affected. This is mainly in the news IMO because it’s a “culture war” issue that is being used to drive turnout at election time. Trans issues (bathroom access, etc) are used as the “tip of the spear” because even among people who are sympathetic to trans people (like this forum) many people react negatively to the idea that trans athletes have an unfair advantage. However the evidence of an unfair advantage is not there under the existing rules (which is why the NCAA and IOC still allow it, after many many years of deciding in favor of inclusion).

Based on the success of the culture wars at election time, I expect to see marriage equality (gay marriage) will also be attacked in the future. Basically it’s a political appeal to peoples’ fears. A trans girl playing high school basketball in Kansas has virtually no affect on anyone else’s life. But OMFG the sky is falling! Civilization will crumble.

[Luke Warm]

So let's say college scholarships to women's rugby or women's basketball.
Will genetic women feel 'slighted' if say 2 of 5 scholarships go to trans athletes?

If this was really a pressing problem, you would not be limited to discussing it by only using hypothetical examples.

[Luke Warm]

Is it possible to play Major League Basketball if the player is 5' 5" tall? Does a player who is 6'9" have 'an unfair advantage'?

I don’t want to go off on a tangent, but Muggsy Bogues is 5’3” and played 14 seasons in the NBA (he is a great leaper and could dunk) while there have been many mediocre 7-footers who only played a few seasons before being cut, or who never even made it into the pro ranks.

[Stavros]

I don’t want to go off on a tangent, but Muggsy Bogues is 5’3” and played 14 seasons in the NBA (he is a great leaper and could dunk) while there have been many mediocre 7-footers who only played a few seasons before being cut, or who never even made it into the pro ranks.

Thanks for this, as I know nothing about Basketball, I think I have watched a few minutes of a game but that is all. I also liked your longer post highlighting the exploitation of Transgendered people in School sports as part of a 'culture war'. A useful change of perspective.

[Lovly-red]

I wasn't saying she was trans. Not sure how half my post deleted, but I was saying Amanda Nunes has some of the heaviest hands in women's MMA and even she's not out here breaking skulls. I was talking about Fallon Fox who grew up as a male, went through puberty completely as a male, served in the military as a male meaning she trained and was tested on male physical standards. Assuming she took combatives while in the military, she went up against primarily males. She transitioned after doing all of that. That's simply an unfair advantage, even if she went against someone like Meisha Tate who was wrestling with the boys in school

Got it now, but when I quoted you. I just deleted the stuff i didn't want in the quote.

[MrFanti]

If this was really a pressing problem, you would not be limited to discussing it by only using hypothetical examples.
If you're going to estimate affect, then you must examine all examples.
That's how a lot of stuff gets screwed up because the research doesn't include all possibilities.

Another way research gets screwed up is by ONLY examining possibilities that support the researcher's point of view.

Thailand may be on to something with the recognition of a 3rd sex.

[Stavros]

If you're going to estimate affect, then you must examine all examples.
That's how a lot of stuff gets screwed up because the research doesn't include all possibilities.

Another way research gets screwed up is by ONLY examining possibilities that support the researcher's point of view.

Thailand may be on to something with the recognition of a 3rd sex.

Many researchers have found that their projects are limited by the transgendered people willing to talk to them about their experience, with the added difficulty of not knowing if the responses are honest -the research on the quality of life for post-op transexuals has been open to question for this reason.

Of the transexuals I have known, 100% considered themselves to be female. The idea of being a 'third sex' or 'third gender' was literally meaningless. Indeed, the concept was invented as an excuse by people unwilling to analyse the reality of sex and gender, just as the idea discussed in Plato that there was originally only one category comprising both male and female has been relegated to the status of curious but redundant religious ideas of Ancient Greece.

[Fitzcarraldo]

transgendered

You keep using that word.
https://time.com/3630965/transgender-transgendered/

[Stavros]

You keep using that word.
https://time.com/3630965/transgender-transgendered/

Up to now I have not given it much thought, but if this is what is wanted, I will comply.