Covid-19 Politics

[filghy2]

All you're witnessing, Flighty, when you see a world in decline, AKA a world full of liberal shitholes, is the end result of corporate greed.

Sorry, I'm confused. I thought that corporate greed was the foundation of your wonderful capitalist system, which is why you don't need government. If you don't want an economy based on corporate greed, does this mean you are becoming a socialist? You can't be capitalist anyway, because that's a system based on corporate greed by definition.

If you are against both capitalism and socialism, that seems to leave only one obvious alternative, does it not?

[filghy2]

I got nothing except to reiterate filghy's points here. Address his questions about the cold, about the burdens of mask wearing

Expecting him to do that really would fit his definition of insanity. Dodge and deflect, as usual.

Meanwhile daily deaths in Australia have risen to over 20, which is about the highest they've been (apart from 2 days in 2020). At the same time, most restrictions have been removed and there is no talk of going back to lockdowns. That is understandable and probably inevitable, but it does mean that Australia is going to look more like most other countries.

In bizarro world, of course, this is all proof that restrictions don't work and that governments are so addicted to them they can never stop.

[Stavros]

Arriving back in the UK has been a useful comparative exercise. The day before departure from Germany, we went to a DIY store but as my companion was in need of a new Covid test to enter the restaurant we were going to in the evening (the DIY store is exempt) , we both had a lateral flow test in the testing centre outside. As it then transpired, when I checkd in at the Lufthansa desk, I needed my Covid Pass, and the Passenger Locator Form (filled out online at least 2 days before departure), and a negative Lateral Flow Test [LFT] result not more than 48 hours old. I had not been told I needed the latter, so I don't know what would have happened had I not had one the day before.

Before arriving in the UK, I booked an LFT online -the package was delivered the day I arrived- which I need to complete no more than 2 days after arrival. Moreover, because the LFT is done by a private company not the NHS it cost me £19 (22.80 Euros or $25.91). On arrival at the regional airport I used, there were no staff at passport control but biometric machines, so no questions to answer or documents to show. I have done the test and sent the results online, but there is no way they know it was in fact me other than my declaration. Someone else could have done the test knowing they were negative and sent that.

The Germans have test centres all over the place, and it is free. The test resuts can be sent by phone, whereas the one I had the day before my departure was a document with an official stamp and signature. And, just as masks are de rigeur even in some major streets, the regulations here are quite poor in comparison. We may be heading towards the end of the worst of this pandemic, but I still wonder who has the best policy.

And definitely, travellers should ensure they know what documents they need before they fly -I assume it would be similar on the Eurostar or other rail, and road connections. It does take time, it does require a computer and even better, a smart phone, but it is worth it if you need, or want to travel. And of course for so many connections online, user IDs and those damn passwords....

[Nick Danger]

Arriving back in the UK has been a useful comparative exercise. The day before departure from Germany, we went to a DIY store but as my companion was in need of a new Covid test to enter the restaurant we were going to in the evening (the DIY store is exempt) , we both had a lateral flow test in the testing centre outside. As it then transpired, when I checkd in at the Lufthansa desk, I needed my Covid Pass, and the Passenger Locator Form (filled out online at least 2 days before departure), and a negative Lateral Flow Test [LFT] result not more than 48 hours old. I had not been told I needed the latter, so I don't know what would have happened had I not had one the day before.

Before arriving in the UK, I booked an LFT online -the package was delivered the day I arrived- which I need to complete no more than 2 days after arrival. Moreover, because the LFT is done by a private company not the NHS it cost me £19 (22.80 Euros or $25.91). On arrival at the regional airport I used, there were no staff at passport control but biometric machines, so no questions to answer or documents to show. I have done the test and sent the results online, but there is no way they know it was in fact me other than my declaration. Someone else could have done the test knowing they were negative and sent that.

The Germans have test centres all over the place, and it is free. The test resuts can be sent by phone, whereas the one I had the day before my departure was a document with an official stamp and signature. And, just as masks are de rigeur even in some major streets, the regulations here are quite poor in comparison. We may be heading towards the end of the worst of this pandemic, but I still wonder who has the best policy.

And definitely, travellers should ensure they know what documents they need before they fly -I assume it would be similar on the Eurostar or other rail, and road connections. It does take time, it does require a computer and even better, a smart phone, but it is worth it if you need, or want to travel. And of course for so many connections online, user IDs and those damn passwords....

Stavros, that is without question the single most useful thing you've ever said. THANK YOU for that information, I'll be using it in a few weeks. It's a shame you won't still be around, I'd buy you a beer. Or ten.

[Stavros]

Vaccinations are freedom. Tests are freedom. Masks are freedom.

die Wahrheit lebt in der Täuschung fort



http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/authors69/friedrich-von-schiller-quote-truth-lives-on-in-the-midst-of-deception.jpg

[Nick Danger]

Yet another long-winded answer that completely failed to address the point. You are like a politician, addressing the point you want to make rather than the one that was put to you.

FYI, rich folks are clearly more likely to vote Republican. Voters with incomes over $100,000 went for Trump 54:42 in the last election. You are conveniently forgetting all the filthy rich businessmen who support Trump, eg the Murdochs, the Koch brothers, the Mercers.
https://abcnews.go.com/Elections/exit-polls-2020-us-presidential-election-results-analysis

Here's the point that you obviously have no answer to. If your views are just common sense and it's only rich liberals distorting things, then how come most people in the rest of the world don't agree with you? If the US is the exception then which is more likely - the US is weird or that all those other countries are weird? It can't be a coincidence that only in the US is half the population being fed a steady diet of lies by right-wing media.

You are like a fascinating anthropological study to me because we don't have many lunatics like you in Australia (eg 95% of adults here are vaccinated). Or maybe it's like discovering an alternative universe where everything is the opposite of the normal universe.

Of course rich folks vote Republican. They didn't get rich by being stupid.

You need to open your mind, Flighty, be more like me. See, when I look around and I see things happening like, oh, perfect example, the recent "voting rights issues" uh, thingie, dealie, whatever it is, with the Democrats. "Voting is hard!" said no one, ever. "It's important that illegal immigrants be allowed to vote," said those same non-existent people. When I see my President screaming about this absolute non-issue like he's Martin Luther King on crack, I don't shut down like you do. I know - reitereate, I KNOW - that voting is not a problem in this country. You register. You vote. It's not complicated, not difficult in any way whatsoever. Hell, it's not even time-consuming, the longest line I've ever stood in to vote was like 3 people, and I've voted all over this great country. If you want a mail-in ballot, all you have to do is ask for one. The only possible motive for acting as if there is an actual voting rights problem in this country is if you're looking to rig an election or two because nobody likes you.

Or when I hear there's systemic racism against blacks in the USA when the exact opposite is the truth. Or that there are 72 different genders. Or when half the country seems eerily fine with being locked down for years over a non-emergency like Covid. Or when doing away with the police becomes a matter of serious discussion. Or when we vote Mister Magoo into the White House. You know, just absolute BATSHIT INSANE stuff - when I hear it, I don't shut down. I open up. I think harder. There HAS to be a reason so many people are talking like lunatics but somehow not getting the treatment they so desperately need. There's got to be...something...I'm missing.

The reason is as stated. Giant corporations controlling the narrative via the media THEY OWN, looking to lock down their monopolies by pushing progressivism as if it's sane, and getting regulation-happy liberals elected to office - a simple, easily understood explanation for why the VERY richest people seem to have suddenly lost their minds.

I'm not going to keep defending my ideas to you, Flighty, it's hilarious that you act as if I'm the one who has some explaining to do. How about if YOU explain why we voted in a Democratic President, a Democratic House, a Democratic Senate, and the country is almost immediately at its most-totally-fucked level of the last 50 years. God-mode: Don't blame the previous administration.


Expecting him to do that really would fit his definition of insanity. Dodge and deflect, as usual.

Meanwhile daily deaths in Australia have risen to over 20, which is about the highest they've been (apart from 2 days in 2020). At the same time, most restrictions have been removed and there is no talk of going back to lockdowns. That is understandable and probably inevitable, but it does mean that Australia is going to look more like most other countries.

In bizarro world, of course, this is all proof that restrictions don't work and that governments are so addicted to them they can never stop.

And guess what we're doing about that, Flighty. Nothing. Because nothing is what works. Nothing is what Donald Trump said would work, and what Joe Biden is now having to acknowledge will work. Nothing at all. And in a couple weeks, it will ALL BE OVER. Oh, not the restrictions and the fearmongering and the pharmaceutical disinformation, just the slight cold that's going around.

20 people a day. What a fucking bunch of pussies. Don't grown men have any shame anymore?

[Nick Danger]

Vaccinations are freedom. Tests are freedom. Masks are freedom.

die Wahrheit lebt in der Täuschung fort

Stavros, you're demonstrating some real character. You're not all angry and hostile about the virus. You sincerely want people to wear masks and get vaccinated, and even though I disagree with you, I respect the fact that you have put enough thought into the matter to come up with an actual sales pitch, and not a bad one - instead of just being a basic bitch about it like everyone else. I'm getting vaccinated today BTW.

[broncofan]

Stavros, you're demonstrating some real character. You're not all angry and hostile about the virus. You sincerely want people to wear masks and get vaccinated, and even though I disagree with you, I respect the fact that you have put enough thought into the matter to come up with an actual sales pitch, and not a bad one - instead of just being a basic bitch about it like everyone else. I'm getting vaccinated today BTW.
Let us know if you get just the sore arm or anything like a headache (which is what I got). I know two shots will not prevent infection with omicron but the next variant might not come from that lineage and the more (acquired) immunity your body has to the virus the better chance you have of blocking infection. For every variant we've seen it makes it less likely you end up in the hospital and like I said maybe we get unlucky and an even deadlier variant comes along that could challenge your badass immune system. Even a strong immune system gets stronger by learning, so a sneak peak of coming attractions will only prime you for the future. Have a good time in Germany. I've only been to Munich but that was a great time....

[broncofan]

And guess what we're doing about that, Flighty. Nothing. Because nothing is what works. Nothing is what Donald Trump said would work, and what Joe Biden is now having to acknowledge will work. Nothing at all. And in a couple weeks, it will ALL BE OVER. Oh, not the restrictions and the fearmongering and the pharmaceutical disinformation, just the slight cold that's going around.

20 people a day. What a fucking bunch of pussies. Don't grown men have any shame anymore?
The current variant is very different than the virus that emerged in Wuhan. That's not an excuse. Delta provided problems that the original virus did not. Had delta been in circulation in 2020 we'd have been much worse off as it was much more transmissible and also more deadly. In contrast, had delta not emerged when it did, even our meager vaccination program here was quashing cases very quickly, breakthroughs were pretty rare, and people would not have gotten boosted as early as they did.

Omicron has an intrinsic virulence that makes it still deadlier than the flu but less deadly than any other sars2 descended variant. We do go about our business during flu season and even I (a lunger who has been put in the hospital every decade of his life by the flu) do not change my behavior during flu season, except to get a flu shot most years. What to do with some protection against omicron? I'm less worried, but I still don't see the difficulty in wearing a mask. I just worry less.

Pfizer is coming out with an omicron specific vaccine. It's not clear who will get it, though people over 65 should, and I think people generally should because you protect yourself against omicron and anything descended from it. The fact is that when scientists did assays the antibodies our bodies produce in response to the original spike protein were not very good at recognizing the altered spike of omicron. So only really high titers of antibodies made any difference in preventing infection and if we see viruses derived from omicron it would be better to have a broadening of antibody response.

Finally, with deaths what matters is the marginal impact of our choices. Everyone who dies has people who love them and probably enjoys their life, so it seems callous not to take very minor steps to protect other people. It's easy to trivialize death on a mass scale because so many people die every year and the fact is that everybody dies. But nobody wants to die 5 years early or 10 years early or 30 years early. The way people die from covid is especially painful in many cases. This is what er doctors and nurses who are by the bedside of the convalescent have said. The point isn't that we can prevent all pain and suffering in the world, but some of us wonder why we don't prevent what we can when it comes at a very minor cost, like wearing a mask or getting a shot that can help.

[Stavros]

Finally, with deaths what matters is the marginal impact of our choices. Everyone who dies has people who love them and probably enjoys their life, so it seems callous not to take very minor steps to protect other people. It's easy to trivialize death on a mass scale because so many people die every year and the fact is that everybody dies. But nobody wants to die 5 years early or 10 years early or 30 years early. The way people die from covid is especially painful in many cases. This is what er doctors and nurses who are by the bedside of the convalescent have said. The point isn't that we can prevent all pain and suffering in the world, but some of us wonder why we don't prevent what we can when it comes at a very minor cost, like wearing a mask or getting a shot that can help.

One of the best things I have read on Covid, so thanks for sharing it with us.

Also eloquent, Rory Kinnear's account of his sister's death, on the same day of that 'BYOB' party Boris Johnson claims was a working meeting. There are times when the simple eloquence of truth demolishes the pretentious rubbish we hear from elected politicians, no matter where they are.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/12/rory-kinnear-no-10-lockdown-party-buried-sister

[Nick Danger]

The current variant is very different than the virus that emerged in Wuhan. That's not an excuse. Delta provided problems that the original virus did not. Had delta been in circulation in 2020 we'd have been much worse off as it was much more transmissible and also more deadly. In contrast, had delta not emerged when it did, even our meager vaccination program here was quashing cases very quickly, breakthroughs were pretty rare, and people would not have gotten boosted as early as they did.

Omicron has an intrinsic virulence that makes it still deadlier than the flu but less deadly than any other sars2 descended variant. We do go about our business during flu season and even I (a lunger who has been put in the hospital every decade of his life by the flu) do not change my behavior during flu season, except to get a flu shot most years. What to do with some protection against omicron? I'm less worried, but I still don't see the difficulty in wearing a mask. I just worry less.

Pfizer is coming out with an omicron specific vaccine. It's not clear who will get it, though people over 65 should, and I think people generally should because you protect yourself against omicron and anything descended from it. The fact is that when scientists did assays the antibodies our bodies produce in response to the original spike protein were not very good at recognizing the altered spike of omicron. So only really high titers of antibodies made any difference in preventing infection and if we see viruses derived from omicron it would be better to have a broadening of antibody response.

Finally, with deaths what matters is the marginal impact of our choices. Everyone who dies has people who love them and probably enjoys their life, so it seems callous not to take very minor steps to protect other people. It's easy to trivialize death on a mass scale because so many people die every year and the fact is that everybody dies. But nobody wants to die 5 years early or 10 years early or 30 years early. The way people die from covid is especially painful in many cases. This is what er doctors and nurses who are by the bedside of the convalescent have said. The point isn't that we can prevent all pain and suffering in the world, but some of us wonder why we don't prevent what we can when it comes at a very minor cost, like wearing a mask or getting a shot that can help.

The virus is different things to different people and so is the vaccine. Just like "It is what it is" is either a blanket statement by a midwit who's run out of information, or a canny summation of 2,500 years of Buddhist enlightenment.

That's why I was never an anti-vaxxer, Bronco - I always said if you want it, get it. I didn't try to convince anyone they were going to die or have deformed children, or try to make them feel stupid for getting it. Others have not been so courteous to me.

I did get the damn thing a few hours ago. I feel feverish, nauseous, and I have a slight but sharp headache. I feel like I could sleep for a thousand years. I'm going to bed. Have a nice day.

[filghy2]

20 people a day. What a fucking bunch of pussies. Don't grown men have any shame anymore?


I did get the damn thing a few hours ago. I feel feverish, nauseous, and I have a slight but sharp headache. I feel like I could sleep for a thousand years. I'm going to bed. Have a nice day.

Sleep tight Mr Pussy

[filghy2]

Nothing is what Donald Trump said would work

Not quite. Let me refresh your memory on what he actually said.

January 22, 2020: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. It’s going to be just fine.”

February 7: “It’s also more deadly than even your strenuous flu… This is deadly stuff.” Trump told Bob Woodward in quotes only released on September 9.

February 27: “It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.”

March 11: “The virus will not have a chance against us. No nation is more prepared or more resilient than the United States.”

March 17: “I’ve always known this is a real — this is a pandemic. I felt it was a pandemic long before it was called a pandemic… I’ve always viewed it as very serious.”

April 24: “Then I see the disinfectant which knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside for almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that."
"So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it’s ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said, that hasn’t been checked but you’re gonna test it. And then I said, supposing it brought the light inside the body, which you can either do either through the skin or some other way.”

July 28: “I happen to believe in it. I would take it. As you know, I took it for a 14-day period. And as you know, I’m here. I happen to think it works in the early stages.” (on hydroxychloroquine)

You know declining memory is an early indicator of dementia?

[blackchubby38]

Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab - but feared debate could hurt ‘international harmony’


http://www.yahoo.com/news/scientists-believed-covid-leaked-wuhan-211452135.html

[filghy2]

It's literally a common cold now


PS: Can you also share your source on 1600 American deaths from the common cold each day?

I you want to get an answer from ND it seems you have to find it yourself.

There are no data on deaths from the common cold because it's not a single virus and the only way it could kill would be if it you developed something like pneumonia, which would be included in pneumonia deaths. However, there are data on deaths from influenza which show that annual deaths in the US averaged 33,000 over the previous decade, which is about 90 per day. That is one-twentieth of the current death rate from Covid-19.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

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[Stavros]

Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab - but feared debate could hurt ‘international harmony’
l (http://www.yahoo.com/news/scientists-believed-covid-leaked-wuhan-211452135.html)

But look closer at the correspondence -

"“He is bothered by the furin site and has a hard time (to) explain that as an event outside the lab, though there are possible ways in nature but highly unlikely."

“I share your view that a swift convening of experts in a confidence-inspiring framework is needed or the voices of conspiracy will quickly dominate, doing great potential harm to science and international harmony.” (My emphasis in bold).

So it is possible that this was a natural event, and possible that it might have been a leak from a lab. Either way the people concerned, unable to arrive at a defnitive explanation, were keen to prevent the argument becoming part of a conspiracy theory. That seems reasonable to me, not least because some people, Rand Paul is an obvious one, want this to be a conspiracy, either to cover up that it was a lab accident, or a deliberate plan by the Chinese Government. Throw in his persistent claim that Dr Fauci led the American involvement in 'gain of function' research, and you arrive too soon at the very definitive explanations science has not yet agreed upon.

The grim fact is that the Chinese Govt is not going to allow the kind of open investigation and scrutiiny of all the possible routes to the Covid virus that could eiither exonerate the lab in Wuhan, or identify it as the source. Thus we are left with the fact that Politics rather than Science is in command. It is the price we pay for the Autocracy in China even though we don't live there, but must deal with the consequences of Covid regardless of its origins.

[broncofan]

While I try to read and understand most of the debates surrounding this virus, the debate about whether the virus comes from spillover or has been altered in a lab based on its genome and structure is way beyond my level of comprehension. I read that correspondence in the article as people not wanting to make a potentially sensitive accusation prematurely.

I think there was some self-censorship early on as I remember some scientists calling the potential for an accidental leak outlandish. They should have made clear it was one possibility to be explored thoughtfully and that it has the potential to feed conspiracy theories if they are not responsible about how they express themselves.

Most scientists I follow on twitter believe it is more likely that the virus first infected humans at the Wuhan market and was not a leak. I am pretty discriminating in who I follow.

Stavros said it better than I can but look at how the proponents of the "lab leak hypothesis" talk about the subject. They express certainty when they have none and are clearly trying to impugn public health experts because they believe that if it leaked from the lab then "the scientific establishment" created the virus and their views can be discarded. Even accepting their premises this would be a stupid conclusion. If I thought research at a lab was promising and worth investing in and the lab had an accident that was an unlikely event it would not make me responsible for their mistake.

Part of the attractiveness of the lab leak hypothesis is that it gives us a human face to blame. It's easier for us to deal with our angst if we can blame hapless or malicious people rather than a natural process.

[broncofan]

However, there are data on deaths from influenza which show that annual deaths in the US averaged 33,000 over the previous decade, which is about 90 per day.

The Supreme Court is hearing a case that deals with mandates that I haven't been paying much attention to though it's likely important. During oral arguments Justice Neil Gorsuch said something to the effect of, I think the flu kills hundreds of thousands of people a year. The context made clear he was talking about the US. We've got some problems here.

[Nick Danger]

I you want to get an answer from ND it seems you have to find it yourself.

There are no data on deaths from the common cold because it's not a single virus and the only way it could kill would be if it you developed something like pneumonia, which would be included in pneumonia deaths. However, there are data on deaths from influenza which show that annual deaths in the US averaged 33,000 over the previous decade, which is about 90 per day. That is one-twentieth of the current death rate from Covid-19.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

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I was really only speaking figuratively, Flighty, but I will take comfort from the fact that whatever time you spent looking all that up is less time you have to spout liberal horseshit on the internet. BTW I'm not clicking on that link. You might be able to rickroll me at some point down the line but it's definitely not going to be the day after I rolled you.

I'm done talking about this virus. I feel like ass, no energy, headache, sore arm, the vaccine really did a number on me, and now I'm all slept out and I'm just going to have to stay awake and suffer. My body is asking me why I would do something like this to it. "Have I not kept you safe and healthy all these years? Why, Nick? It feels like a betrayal. I want a divorce!"

[Nick Danger]

Okay I'm going to say one last thing about the vaccine and then seriously, I'm done talking about Covid, I'm going to pretend it no longer exists from this point forward in my life. I feel better now. Just fine actually. It took a full day and like 16 hours of fitful sleep. But I feel normal. Fair's fair so I'm sharing all relevant information. And now, goodbye Covid narrative and goodbye Covid arguments.

[filghy2]

I'm done talking about this virus. I feel like ass, no energy, headache, sore arm, the vaccine really did a number on me, and now I'm all slept out and I'm just going to have to stay awake and suffer. My body is asking me why I would do something like this to it. "Have I not kept you safe and healthy all these years? Why, Nick? It feels like a betrayal. I want a divorce!"

So much for your superhuman immunity to everything. I suppose I should not indulge in schadenfreude, but it is kind of hilarious that you whine so much about your own discomforts when you have been so dismissive of other peoples' suffering.

[broncofan]

So much for your superhuman immunity to everything. I suppose I should not indulge in schadenfreude, but it is kind of hilarious that you whine so much about your own discomforts when you have been so dismissive of other peoples' suffering.
The pandemic has sort of fixed for me the notion that seeing really despicable people suffer could do anything for me. I don't say this as a sanctimonious sort of the thing because I expected the afterglow of crackpot antivaxx radio hosts dying to last longer. It barely even registers and the fact is I know they went through some kind of personal hell. Four weeks in the hospital with a respiratory virus must be brutal. You could describe for them in advance how much that must suck and how you have no control over whether it happens once you're infected......they don't fucking get it.

[filghy2]

To be frank, I can't feel too much sympathy for people who have been indifferent to the health of others and have chosen to ignore scientific evidence. There is poetic justice to it: hubris leads to nemesis.

I guess ideally I would kind of like them to get just sick enough to learn a lesson. For some folks, unfortunately, the only way they can learn is through hard experience. I'm not sure whether Trump learnt a lesson, but he has at least been sensible on vaccines.

[Nick Danger]

I recall being quite indifferent to the suffering of others at the cost of economic stability. But I don’t recall taking any pleasure in it. Oh well, one more difference in the liberal mind and the conservative mind I guess.

[filghy2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NesGjVFX1g

[Stavros]

Wilkommen in Deutschland -Geimpft oder Genesen? Mit weder, bye-bye!

[broncofan]

I recall being quite indifferent to the suffering of others at the cost of economic stability. But I don’t recall taking any pleasure in it. Oh well, one more difference in the liberal mind and the conservative mind I guess.
I've found I don't take pleasure in it and I don't feel sorrowful.

My reaction is similar to when I watched one of the guys from the Jackass movies ask Butterbean to punch him in the head. Then it happens. The utter lack of suspense, the inevitability of cause and effect being linked up, and the stupidity of the person ignoring both cause bewilderment and irritation.

[Nick Danger]

Okay, I know I said I wasn't going to talk about Covid anymore. But then I found out about COVID DICK!!!!!

https://nypost.com/2022/01/13/man-claims-his-penis-shrunk-after-contracting-covid/

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[Stavros]

Nah, he is dyslexic, as in Honey I shrunk the Kids

[filghy2]

Interesting stat - 85% of all Covid cases recorded in Australia so far have occurred in the past 4 weeks.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/
The real figure is certainly even higher because testing capacity has been overwhelmed and people are now being told to get a PCR test only if they have symptoms or a positive rapid antigen test. The problem is that RATs are in very short supply (and increasingly expensive). Apparently it never occurred to anyone that removing most restrictions at the same time omicron emerged would lead to a huge upsurge in cases.

[broncofan]

Interesting stat - 85% of all Covid cases recorded in Australia so far have occurred in the past 4 weeks.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/
The real figure is certainly even higher because testing capacity has been overwhelmed and people are now being told to get a PCR test only if they have symptoms or a positive rapid antigen test. The problem is that RATs are in very short supply (and increasingly expensive). Apparently it never occurred to anyone that removing most restrictions at the same time omicron emerged would lead to a huge upsurge in cases.
I just saw that you guys have 92.6% of the population over 16 at least double jabbed. That should help a lot in the long run. The transmissibility of omicron must be off the charts given what is happening everywhere. Probably a combination of that and lower appetite for caution given that it's less deadly (whether bc of prior immunity or intrinsically). Clearly a lot of lives have been saved by your public health measures.

I was just trying to figure out the case fatality rate in the US knowing that we probably are not detecting a large percent of cases. If death lags three weeks, the denominator is about 300,000 and the numerator about 1700. That's a cfr of about .55%. If only one third of cases are picked up it could be an ifr of .17%....and ifr obviously varies a lot based on comorbities and amount of prior immunity. I know this is very rough math (for instance I completely made up one third but we know ifr is probably a significant multiple lower than cfr).

I don't think 1700 deaths in the US is trivial but when you have 1700 deaths on lots of infections it does mean lots of people are getting some immunity. The problem is that immunity doesn't last forever and new variants could reduce the significance of that. It also means that if the cfr holds then in three weeks we might be seeing about 4000 deaths a day here (against 800,000 current infections per day). So even while cfr and ifr are lower there's still a huge toll of death!

[broncofan]

.and ifr obviously varies a lot based on comorbities and amount of prior immunity. I know this is very rough math (for instance I completely made up one third but we know ifr is probably a significant multiple lower than cfr).

This doesn't make perfect sense. I know ifr is an average calculated among a population with a variety of different risk factors. At the very least though the ifr could be broken into two groups. Those with some immunity and those with none. But that's tricky because age is correlated with both vaccination status and risk of death. So anyway I wouldn't be the one doing the calculating but it can be done:D

[filghy2]

The problem is that immunity doesn't last forever and new variants could reduce the significance of that.

This article suggests that even though antibodies decline over time there are other ways by which the body can learn to strengthen its immune response over time. If this process and new vaccines can outpace the development of new variants we may be able to achieve the elusive herd immunity.
https://www.vox.com/22878133/omicron-coronavirus-covid-19-immunity-antibodies-vaccine

[broncofan]

This article suggests that even though antibodies decline over time there are other ways by which the body can learn to strengthen its immune response over time. If this process and new vaccines can outpace the development of new variants we may be able to achieve the elusive herd immunity.
https://www.vox.com/22878133/omicron-coronavirus-covid-19-immunity-antibodies-vaccine
There's been some really good science writing since this pandemic started. This is a great article, thanks. Not to be annoying but I recommend anyone interested in understanding how our immune system works and where the pandemic might be headed take a look.

[Stavros]

Boris Johnson has announced significant relaxations in the rules. Desperate to save his job, he seems to think 'we' are at the tail end of the Pandemic and that such relaxations are not going to lead to another spike in infections, of either Covid-19 and/or its known variants, the assumption being there won't be any new ones. He could be doing the right, thing, or he could as he usually does, be gambling with the health of England, we have to wait and see.

"Boris Johnson has announced the end of all Covid measures introduced to combat the Omicron variant (https://www.theguardian.com/world/omicron) – compulsory mask-wearing on public transport and in shops, guidance to work from home and vaccine certificates – from next week.
The prime minister also told the Commons that the legal requirement on people with coronavirus to self-isolate would be allowed to lapse when the regulations expired on 24 March, and that date could be brought forward.
To cheers from some on the Conservative benches, Johnson announced an immediate end to the need for pupils to wear masks at secondary schools.
...
A director of public health at a city in the north of England said they were also concerned at the move. “This feels like more of a political decision than a decision based on the evidence and the science, and it could be quite London-centric,” they said.
“We’re seeing a reduction in cases, but they’re still incredibly high. Taking out all these measures does feel risky. And if our focus is keeping kids in schools as much as possible, this may result in more disruption to education. I worry the decision has not been made for the right reasons.”
The changes apply only to England, as Covid restrictions, as part of health policy, are a devolved matter. "
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/19/boris-johnson-announces-end-to-all-omicron-covid-restrictions-in-england

[Stavros]

This article suggests that even though antibodies decline over time there are other ways by which the body can learn to strengthen its immune response over time. If this process and new vaccines can outpace the development of new variants we may be able to achieve the elusive herd immunity.
https://www.vox.com/22878133/omicron-coronavirus-covid-19-immunity-antibodies-vaccine

I agree with Broncofan so thanks for linking this clearly written and informative article. Other than the clinical aspects of this and any potential new viruses, it is clear to me that we -and I don't just mean the UK- need to have more robust systems in place that can go into action when something like Covid arrives in the population. In the UK it means both better funding for the NHS, but also better prepared contingency planning which was so clearly lacking in January-March 2020. In the US it means the time has come for the country to accept that it needs to overhaul the health sector.

What we also need is the intelligence that is in short supply, from the anti-Vaxx idiots we have in the UK, to their American 'cousins' and the truly nasty, stupid, ignorant and dangerous lunatics like Rand Paul who place a higher value on some fantasy they call 'freedom' than on human life.

We might get the practical stuff organized, it seems we need an intellectual revolution to save Science from the Cretins who think they know better. Looks like a log-term struggle.

[filghy2]

Other than the clinical aspects of this and any potential new viruses, it is clear to me that we -and I don't just mean the UK- need to have more robust systems in place that can go into action when something like Covid arrives in the population. In the UK it means both better funding for the NHS, but also better prepared contingency planning which was so clearly lacking in January-March 2020. In the US it means the time has come for the country to accept that it needs to overhaul the health sector.

Don't hold your breath. Our political systems seem to have lost any capacity for contingency planning. Even in Australia, which dealt with this pandemic better than most countries, there has been little evidence of planning for the surge in cases that followed inevitably the removal of most restrictions. https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2022/01/17/omicron-neoliberalism-alan-kohler/

This can be attributed in part to the continuing influence of neo-liberalism and the idea that things should be left to the market. Even conservative governments are willing to set this aside in a crisis - the prospect of losing the next election tends to concentrate the mind wonderfully - but the prevailing assumption is that this should be temporary. Ignoring pessimistic scenarios is easier than expending resources now to avoid problems that may emerge only after you've left office.

In addition, most politicians these days are people whose experience and skills relate largely to politics, rather than running things in the 'real world'. This used to be offset to a degree by the expertise of the permanent public service, but this has been degraded over a long period. I don't know how it is in the UK but in Australia public servants are now told that their job is to do the government's bidding rather than any long term thinking of their own. Not surprisingly, they have learnt not to provide unsolicited advice and, in any case, staffing cuts have reduced their capacity to do more than the government demands.

[filghy2]

In the US it means the time has come for the country to accept that it needs to overhaul the health sector.

Here's an example of how inefficient the US system is: in the year 2022 many people still have to submit reimbursement forms by post or fax. I assume the health funds do this deliberately to discourage claims. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/22893116/covid-19-free-tests-health-insurance-reimbursement

[blackchubby38]

I remember seeing Governor Phil Murphy (NJ) on Meet the Press shortly after it was confirmed that he had won his reelection bid. The feeling I took away from his appearance was that he was someone who realized that even though he had won, the slim margin told him that he was going to have to make some changes during his second term in office.

http://https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/08/us/politics/new-york-mask-mandate.html

Dropping Indoor Mask Mandate, New York Joins Blue States Easing Covid Rules

After a scare in November, New Jersey’s governor and other Democratic leaders held back-channel talks over lifting mandates and helping voters impatient with restrictions reclaim a sense of normalcy.

Gov. Kathy Hochul will drop New York’s stringent indoor mask mandate on Wednesday, ending a requirement that businesses ask customers for proof of full vaccination or require mask wearing at all times, and marking a turning point in the state’s coronavirus response, according to three people briefed on her decision.

The decision will eliminate a rule that prompted legal and interpersonal clashes over mask wearing, especially in conservative parts of New York. It was set to expire on Thursday and would have required renewing.

Ms. Hochul’s decision will let the mask mandate lapse just as a crushing winter surge in coronavirus cases is finally receding. But it was not yet clear whether the governor would renew or drop a separate mask mandate in New York schools that is set to expire in two weeks.

The easing of New York’s pandemic restrictions on businesses comes as Democratic-led states from New Jersey to California have announced similar moves this week, in a loosely coordinated effort that is the result of months of public-health planning, back-channel discussions and political focus groups that began in the weeks after the November election.

It was Gov. Philip D. Murphy of New Jersey who began the effort last fall, weeks after he was stunned by the energy of right-wing voters in his blue state, who nearly ousted him from office in what was widely expected to be an easy re-election campaign. Arranging a series of focus groups across the state to see what they had missed, Mr. Murphy’s advisers were struck by the findings: Across the board, voters shared frustrations over public health measures, a sense of pessimism about the future and a deep desire to return to some sense of normalcy.

Then, Omicron hit, delaying any easing of restrictions.

But slowly, as case rates began to fall again in January, conversations between Mr. Murphy’s aides and senior officials in other states began to pick back up. No actions could be taken until the virus eased its grip, the officials acknowledged.

But even Democratic voters, they agreed, were wearying of the toughest restrictions, growing increasingly impatient with mandates and feeling ready to live with the risk that remained. As cases plummeted, the public health dynamics were shifting, too, giving the governors the opportunity to figure out how to arrive at a new sense of normal.

Last week, they took their concerns to the White House. As members of the National Governors Association gathered for a meeting in the East Room, several asked President Biden to provide clear guidelines for their states to move from the crisis footing of a pandemic to a recognition that the virus was here to stay — and that it could be managed without completely upending daily life.

“What does the road from pandemic to endemic look like, and how do we keep score?” Mr. Murphy, the association’s vice chairman, later told reporters, describing the discussion. “There was broad agreement that that’s the task before us.”

The administration’s guidance didn’t come quickly enough for Mr. Murphy, however. On Monday, he acted — without White House support — by announcing that New Jersey would no longer require students and school employees to wear masks, in defiance of the current recommendations of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

[blackchubby38]

The rest of the article:

With that, a dam had broken. Within hours, Democratic governors in California, Connecticut, Delaware and Oregon moved to lift some mask mandates, and other states and cities indicated that mandates may be ending soon. In Boston, Mayor Michelle Wu laid out benchmarks on Tuesday for when the city would lift proof-of-vaccine requirements if hospitalizations and case numbers continued to fall.

Even in Virginia, where an executive order making masks optional in schools, by Gov. Glenn Youngkin, a Republican, is tied up in legal challenges from liberal school districts, 10 out of 21 Democratic state Senators joined with Republicans on Tuesday to advance legislation that would do just that.

While the specific steps vary by state, the message was the same: It’s time to move on.

In New York, the lifting of the mandate on businesses would have far-reaching effects on many public settings, including retail shops, restaurants and malls as well as workplaces — a boon for companies struggling to attract workers back to their offices.

Ms. Hochul’s move would not affect the mask mandate in New York schools, which expires on Feb. 21 and has become increasingly contentious, sparking heated feuds among parents, teachers and students over public health and individual liberties.

Ms. Hochul said this week that she hoped to ease mask rules in schools eventually, but that the state first needed to scrutinize public health metrics. “I am optimistic that we’re trending in that direction, but I still need the time,” she said on Monday.

Her decision also would not appear to affect certain local, federal and other requirements around masking in specific settings, meaning masks would still be required on trains, airplanes and buses and in health care facilities like hospitals and nursing homes.

It is unclear if some localities with their own strict mask and vaccination rules might follow Ms. Hochul’s lead and potentially lift their restrictions, too.

In New York City, for example, proof of vaccination is required to dine indoors, attend events at arenas, work out at gyms and go to the movies. That requirement has been in place through a program known as “Key to NYC,” which was implemented through an executive order from the mayor and must be renewed every five days. City officials said Tuesday that the order was being renewed.

While the movement to loosen pandemic restrictions began in swing states like Colorado, Pennsylvania and Michigan, its spread to some of the bluest states reflects a country entering a new political phase in the nearly two-year-long pandemic. After years of urging their voters to follow the science, Democrats in the states are moving more quickly to lift restrictions than the Biden administration, which remains scarred after all but declaring victory against the virus last summer only to greet the Delta variant.

Driving these decisions are the growing numbers of voters signaling that they are prepared to live with the virus as it is now, and political calculations about looming midterm elections that already have Democrats on the defensive.

Democrats used their “trust the science” mantra in the pandemic’s early days to project competence and skewer Republicans who were flouting public health guidance, but even the White House now acknowledges the growing gap between public opinion and the advice of the president’s public health advisers.

Moreover, some health experts warn that daylight on Covid restrictions between the Democratic administration and Democratic governors could undermine the already weakened federal public health authorities.

It’s a serious problem when most of the country is actively defying C.D.C. recommendations,” said Dr. Leana Wen, a public health professor at George Washington University. “Governors and local officials are seeing the sentiments of the people they’re serving. And public health has to meet people where they are.”

In a new wave of national polls, growing numbers of Americans have expressed a willingness to move on from the strictest mandates. Seven in 10 respondents to a recent poll by Monmouth University agreed that “it’s time we accept Covid is here to stay and we just need to get on with our lives.”

The rush to turn the page also risks missing an opportunity for Democrats to claim credit for successfully managing the pandemic at a moment when they sorely need to be able to point to major accomplishments, party strategists say.

“We should be pointing to the fact that these successes are because of things that we did,” said Brian Stryker, a partner at the polling firm ALG Research, pointing to vaccination rates and the expected release of vaccines for young children in the next several weeks. “Democrats need to take the win on how far we’ve come.”

Mr. Stryker, whose work on Virginia’s elections last year indicated that school closures hurt Democrats, said that moving past the crisis point of the pandemic would allow Democrats to focus more heavily on the economy and personal finances — issues that he said were increasingly overshadowing concerns about the pandemic.

“This is a moment for us to say that this phase of the pandemic, where you as a vaccinated person need to be scared all the time, is over and it is time to live again,” he said. “It will be well received by voters and also gives us the space to talk about other things voters are really concerned about.”

At the same time, Democrats at the state and local level face a more pressing political challenge than the White House. In midterm races, Republicans are eager to shame and name liberal opponents over the tough restrictions they imposed — and over instances in which they personally appear to flout them.

Republicans excoriated Gov. Gavin Newsom of California and Mayor Eric Garcetti of Los Angeles after they were photographed without masks at an N.F.L. playoff game on Jan. 30. (Mr. Garcetti said he held his breath during the photo, creating a “zero percent chance of infection.”)

On Monday, the chairwoman of the Republican National Committee, Ronna McDaniel, called Representative Elissa Slotkin of Michigan “another Democrat hypocrite” after Ms. Slotkin posted a photo of herself unmasked at an indoor campaign event.

And over the weekend, Stacey Abrams, the Georgia Democrat running for governor, deleted a photograph she had tweeted that showed her smiling, mask-free, in front of a classroom full of children wearing masks at a Georgia school.

“This is the Georgia Stacey Abrams wants,” warned a digital ad with which the campaign of former Senator David Perdue, a Republican running for governor, sought to capitalize on the misstep. “Unmask our kids.”

Tuesday night, Ms. Abrams said she had erred by taking the photograph. “Protocols matter,” she said on CNN. “And protecting our kids is the most important thing. And anything that can be perceived as undermining that is a mistake, and I apologize.”

[broncofan]

The newest monoclonal antibody treatment to get emergency use authorization for omicron by the fda is bebtelovimab. It is produced by Eli Lilly, which had a previous antibody treatment that was no longer effective against omicron. Regeneron also had an antibody treatment that was effective against previous variants but not omicron. My understanding is that glaxosmithkline also has an antibody treatment that is still effective against omicron called sotrovimab.

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-authorizes-new-monoclonal-antibody-treatment-covid-19-retains

https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-details/lillys-bebtelovimab-receives-emergency-use-authorization (https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-details/lillys-bebtelovimab-receives-emergency-use-authorization)

GSK Sotrovimab Fact Sheet for HCP 12222021 (fda.gov) (https://www.fda.gov/media/149534/download)

[Stavros]

This is a long but absorbing article in which Musa al-Gharbi tries to explain why people are 'vaccine hesitant' or outright opposed to vaccination, but sees not so much a medical, as a political reason for it, and one that can be explained by the lack of trust people have in politicians, and in the case of Covid, the scientists they have relied on. On the one hand there is the fact that many more people have been vaccinated than have not, but that over the course of the pandemic positions have changed, and mandates and vaccine passports generate hostility. I think it is a fair assessment. My only additional point would be that people who are opposed to Mandates and Vaccine Passports should know these are not permanent, but temporary requirements, and that they work to help reduce the spread of the virus.

I think it was first published in The Guardian but is reprinted via Yahoo

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/why-people-don-t-want-112524888.html

[broncofan]

The data from the trials have been published. Even if you're not an expert in statistics the numbers are pretty straightforward and you would have to believe dozens of people are concocting a fraud in order to disbelieve raw data comparing placebo with treatment arm.

Not believing that scientists are doctoring results from a clinical trial is not very much trust. It doesn't mean I blindly believe or accept every conclusion or opinion. It means I don't think there is a deliberate plot to give people a harmful vaccine and that dedicated medical professionals are lying about its efficacy.

Understanding why people would believe this is definitely something worth investigating because its effects are catastrophic. But I don't really think it removes culpability or blameworthiness from the people who subscribe to these views. I've said before I have a first cousin who is an antivaxxer and I think what she is doing to her family and neighbors by adopting these beliefs is unconscionable.

[fred41]

This is a long but absorbing article in which Musa al-Gharbi tries to explain why people are 'vaccine hesitant' or outright opposed to vaccination, but sees not so much a medical, as a political reason for it, and one that can be explained by the lack of trust people have in politicians, and in the case of Covid, the scientists they have relied on. On the one hand there is the fact that many more people have been vaccinated than have not, but that over the course of the pandemic positions have changed, and mandates and vaccine passports generate hostility. I think it is a fair assessment. My only additional point would be that people who are opposed to Mandates and Vaccine Passports should know these are not permanent, but temporary requirements, and that they work to help reduce the spread of the virus.

I think it was first published in The Guardian but is reprinted via Yahoo

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/why-people-don-t-want-112524888.html

Very good, well balanced article from Musa al-Gharbi trying to explain it all. Thanks for posting this Stavros. His upcoming book , as mentioned at the end of the article, may well be an excellent read also.

[Stavros]

The data from the trials have been published. Even if you're not an expert in statistics the numbers are pretty straightforward and you would have to believe dozens of people are concocting a fraud in order to disbelieve raw data comparing placebo with treatment arm.

Not believing that scientists are doctoring results from a clinical trial is not very much trust. It doesn't mean I blindly believe or accept every conclusion or opinion. It means I don't think there is a deliberate plot to give people a harmful vaccine and that dedicated medical professionals are lying about its efficacy.

Understanding why people would believe this is definitely something worth investigating because its effects are catastrophic. But I don't really think it removes culpability or blameworthiness from the people who subscribe to these views. I've said before I have a first cousin who is an antivaxxer and I think what she is doing to her family and neighbors by adopting these beliefs is unconscionable.


Your post is an example of a moral argument shaped by reason, where the contrast is between Emotion and Reason, or as Hobbes put it, between a State of Nature and a State of Government. One could also frame it has the contrast between Faith and Science. It begs the question which to some extent is answered in the link I offered above, what do people want who are so opposed to vaccination?

There seems to be no science in their argument, but an emotional reaction to a diemma oft discussed in politics -does a Liberal Democracy prefer to give the Citizen freedom to do, or freedom from? Hobbes would argue the State takes away part of your freedom in return for security -the citizen should know freedom from fear, of which the fear of death is absolute. It seems those who believe they should have freedom to do, to make their own choices, are willing to leave life or death to chance rather than to the State, even when it has laws, and in some cases a writte Constitution.

Moreover, is it not ironic, that in a State like Texas, where Greg Abbott appears to prefer the Bible to the Constitution, decisions shaped by Faith have bad outcomes politically- that using religious faith as the basis of political decision making is little different from what happens in Pakistan, or Iran or Afghanistan? The same man who declares a 'heartbeat' proof of life that must not be terminated, has no moral anguish in terminating the lives of men on death row, even though it is as clear a violation of the Gospels as can be found.

Thus to me, a politics shaped by emotion, by fear, by resentment, is a form of anarchy, because it resists and opposes rational decision making. It is fundamental to human behaviour, but is not its only form, and maybe in the US, it is the cause of the 'anti-Fed' ideology at the root of 'anti-vaxx' protest. An appeal to reason, or science, thus falls on deaf ears, because the exchange of views is shaped by contradictions -we cannot understand their rejection of reason, they cannot understand our rejection of their feelings.

Trust thus lies at the intersection of our dilemma, just as in the UK, Boris Johnson has lost the trust of many through his cavalier attitude to laws and regulations he told us to obey. And if trust is truly broken, does it matter who replaces Johnson, or Biden, or Trump? We live in interesting, but dangerous times.

[Stavros]

Very good, well balanced article from Musa al-Gharbi trying to explain it all. Thanks for posting this Stavros. His upcoming book , as mentioned at the end of the article, may well be an excellent read also.

Thanks for the endorsement Fred. Hope all is well with you and the Big Apple!

[broncofan]

This is a long but absorbing article in which Musa al-Gharbi tries to explain why people are 'vaccine hesitant' or outright opposed to vaccination, but sees not so much a medical, as a political reason for it, and one that can be explained by the lack of trust people have in politicians, and in the case of Covid, the scientists they have relied on. On the one hand there is the fact that many more people have been vaccinated than have not, but that over the course of the pandemic positions have changed, and mandates and vaccine passports generate hostility. I think it is a fair assessment. My only additional point would be that people who are opposed to Mandates and Vaccine Passports should know these are not permanent, but temporary requirements, and that they work to help reduce the spread of the virus.

I think it was first published in The Guardian but is reprinted via Yahoo

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/why-people-don-t-want-112524888.html
I disagree with a large portion of the article. There's simply no way that a large number of experts could have the same view about every aspect of the pandemic across time, even when the situation is constantly changing. It basically uses the existence of uncertainty in a dynamic situation as an excuse for cherry-picking those facts convenient to the conspiracy narrative and ignoring everything else.

But who is responsible for compiling and collating every stupid statement and presenting them in isolation in order to undermine confidence in vaccines? If you want to discredit the politician who made the statement then fine. But why attempt to pitch ivermectin or undermine public health protocols?

Who is responsible for using the fact that what is known changes over time to undermine conclusions that were drawn at an earlier time?

Initially the rationale for getting the vaccine is that it was effective against all endpoints studied, from infection, to severe disease, to death. It was stated very clearly by most health professionals that the duration of effectiveness was unknown. It was discussed immediately that boosters might be needed at some point and the only way to find out was to wait. There was also concern about whether the vaccines would be effective if there were new variants.

The mask guidance was inherently tricky because it wasn't known initially whether the virus spread before the onset of symptoms. Once it became clear that the virus spread before onset of symptoms the guidance was that masks could be helpful. It's very difficult to study the real world effectiveness of masks because it's difficult to find a control.

Several bullet points are simply wrong. He says initially people were told one shot might be enough. Both Moderna and Pfizer were tested with two shots and were never approved for use with one shot. It was only when delta emerged that it looked like boosters might be a good idea.

He then points out that 12,000 people died shortly after their shots and that this isn't a miniscule number. Nobody is claiming it's a miniscule number. The question is whether the shots caused people's deaths as 12,000 is small relative to the number of people who have been vaccinated. If the shots caused people's deaths how did they do so? Was it an immunological response? It could not have been the result of infection from the vaccine so what occurred etc.

It really seems to me akin to someone blaming the reporting of the wtc attacks for people making bullshit documentaries like loose change. You can't prevent anomalies, or uncertainty, or dumb statements that can be seized on as convenient by these folks...

[fred41]

Thanks for the endorsement Fred. Hope all is well with you and the Big Apple!

I am well thank you….the Big Apple - well, we will have to wait and see. If I had small children I would’ve either moved to the suburbs, small town or perhaps a different State, but we have a new Mayor and I am somewhat hopeful that he will create a better environment in NYC. I could elaborate further…but this is the Covid thread so I’ll leave it at that.

I’m fully vaxxed and boostered and will continue with the recommended regimen. For myself, this is the most logical course of action on all fronts. I’m not overweight, don’t smoke nor have any immune compromises at the moment, but I’ll be 60 in a few months - in one of the densest cities in the U.S…where vaccination rates are high…but fully aware that they’ll never be at 100%. Also, I enjoy going to restaurants, pubs, gyms and shows, none of which can be comfortably traversed without some medical protection…especially when ones decision making process is often hindered by ones own vices…and probably - ones own stupidity..lol.

It seemed like almost everyone in NYC had Omicron during the Christmas holidays, but most of my friends and relatives are vaccinated so that , for those who were infected, the symptoms were either mild (much like a cold) or non existent. I had either the flu or Omicron - I’ll never know for sure, because the only test I could get at the time was a PCR test which results were deemed invalid…two Rapid tests I was able to procure much later came back negative. At present, you can get either test for free all over the city (there’s one up the block from my address).

I hope you and everyone here remains healthy. I often continue to read some of the threads, but just don’t have the desire or personal drive to post.

Be well.

[fred41]

Bronco, I believe you are looking at the article from a wrong perspective. You are a college educated man with a clearly higher-than average IQ , who is a single white collar employee who has the time and intellectual acuity to read, digest and debate all the medical and political news available to him. That is simply not true of a segment of our population. Many don’t have the intellect, education or work one or multiple blue collar jobs and most likely get their news from soundbites….that’s why what a leading politician says or does is so important. Mistakes can often be understandably forgiven, but insincerity by word or (perhaps more important) deed will always leave its mark. As the article points out - Many times , Science…at least ‘seems’ to, sometimes take a back seat to political concerns…by both elected representatives ..and medical staff. This will erode trust in people, especially if they are inherently suspicious to begin with. I don’t believe any of that is a justifiable excuse…but an attempt at explanation. To me, one or two of the author’s points can be debated on technicality…at least as memory may serve., but overall I think he gives a good attempt at explanation

[broncofan]

Bronco, I believe you are looking at the article from a wrong perspective. You are a college educated man with a clearly higher-than average IQ , who is a single white collar employee who has the time and intellectual acuity to read, digest and debate all the medical and political news available to him. That is simply not true of a segment of our population. Many don’t have the intellect, education or work one or multiple blue collar jobs and most likely get their news from soundbites….that’s why what a leading politician says or does is so important. Mistakes can often be understandably forgiven, but insincerity by word or (perhaps more important) deed will always leave its mark. As the article points out - Many times , Science…at least ‘seems’ to, sometimes take a back seat to political concerns…by both elected representatives ..and medical staff. This will erode trust in people, especially if they are inherently suspicious to begin with. I don’t believe any of that is a justifiable excuse…but an attempt at explanation.
This is very succinctly put and I should have said I agree with a lot of the bullet points in the article too. I know nobody's keeping tabs on my positions but I thought the statement by some Democrats about a "Trump vaccine" was stupid because the decision was never going to be his and the data was always going to be published. It is a very good example of playing politics with science. If the vaccine is approved with insufficient data because of political pressure say so but telling people you'll always be skeptical of a vaccine released under a Trump Administration is dangerous and crazy.

In one of my posts I blame the average person, including my cousin who is actually a sweet person (I contradict myself). But I actually feel there is a kind of cottage industry of people with a weird semi-lucid mental state who are taking advantage of other people. They kind of believe the things they say but also are aware they're being shifty.

A woman who works for my brother lost her unvaccinated brother to covid and her sister in law and still won't get vaccinated. I find something about that level of delusion threatening. I sometimes have trouble believing that kind of willful blindness can be a product of innocent naivete but maybe it is sometimes.

In honesty, could you imagine thousands of health professionals and politicians navigating this crisis without someone providing fodder at some point? We know health precautions are inconvenient so at some point there was going to be a movement to resist them.

There's a lot of blame to go around. Someone who is dishonest can weaken people's trust but I think there's also been many attempts to amplify these mistakes in a willful way.

[filghy2]

Bronco, I believe you are looking at the article from a wrong perspective. You are a college educated man with a clearly higher-than average IQ , who is a single white collar employee who has the time and intellectual acuity to read, digest and debate all the medical and political news available to him. That is simply not true of a segment of our population. Many don’t have the intellect, education or work one or multiple blue collar jobs and most likely get their news from soundbites….that’s why what a leading politician says or does is so important. Mistakes can often be understandably forgiven, but insincerity by word or (perhaps more important) deed will always leave its mark. As the article points out - Many times , Science…at least ‘seems’ to, sometimes take a back seat to political concerns…by both elected representatives ..and medical staff. This will erode trust in people, especially if they are inherently suspicious to begin with. I don’t believe any of that is a justifiable excuse…but an attempt at explanation. To me, one or two of the author’s points can be debated on technicality…at least as memory may serve., but overall I think he gives a good attempt at explanation

There is a lot of truth in what you say, but the lack of sophistication of many people is also the reason why the authorities often oversimplify their messages in the first place. They know that if they give a nuanced message with qualifications it is likely to be either misunderstood or interpreted selectively. Sometimes they have erred too much in the direction of spin, but it's a difficult balancing act.

In addition, this is a very asymmetric game, which is why combatting misinformation is so difficult. The authorities are picked up on every error or inconsistency, but the same standard is rarely applied to their critics.

Also, many of the apparent misjudgements that led to changing advice occurred in a public health emergency where there was little information about a new virus. Inevitably some mistakes will be made in such a situation, but waiting for more information before making decisions would very likely have been more risky. Perhaps they didn't give enough thought to how things might pan out two years later, but can they be blamed for that? It's all too easy for armchair critics to find fault with hindsight, knowing that they will never have to account for their own judgments.

[fred41]

Some of the hypocrisy is cringeworthy though. L.A Mayor Garcetti (who seems like a particular Eely individual) , when caught maskless with Mayor Breed and Magic Johnson, could’ve simply stated that they were all vaccinated and outside , so the threat seemed minimal. Instead , he stated that he held his breath when he took his mask off…really?! Stacey Abrams , who is often deemed a political genius, couldn’t see the potential political damage of taking a picture with an elementary school class, where all the tykes were masked, but she is without. Especially since masking young children is still a touchy subject. When confronted, she immediately went to a race based defense…until much later on , when she admitted her folly. There are lots of examples …some of them are clear mistakes…some of them are calculated…but the defensiveness is childish. Talk about weakening trust.

[filghy2]

I guess that goes to my point about asymmetry. Democrats have to be very careful about mistakes, inconsistencies and appearances of hypocrisy because they believe in a greater role for government, so trust is important. Republicans, on the other hand, don't seem to care so much about these things because they don't believe in government. For some of them, mistrust in government is a thing to be encouraged.

[Stavros]

The Pandemic was a shock to all of those for whom it was not a shock, who not only predicted a global pandemic or a more local epidemic, but then planned for it, only to see the plans ignored or abandoned, or replaced by something that was the opposite of what had been intended: instead of a co-ordinated campaign nationally and internationally, we had fractured responses within States, eg the US and the UK, and within blocs, eg the EU supposedly far down the road of 'ever close union'. It might be the only consistent point I have made, as the 'lab leak' theory which I have queried before, might have traction now, but as an accident rather than a deliberate act, though we still don't know enough about the conditions in Wuhan, and the Chinese in their present state are not going to reveal all that they know.

As for individual politicians, whether they are admired -as I think Stacey Abrams is- or reviled, as I think is now the case for both Boris Johnson and Matt Hancock, I am at a loss to explain their failures, other than to say they were never good enough to do the job. In Johnson's case, this was more his 'Churchillian' moment than Brexit, but he flunked it, because -and he should know this having written a book on the man- Churchill was far more collegiate in his management of the Wartime Cabinet than Johnson could ever be. Churchill had the greatest of respect for Labour leader Clement Attlee, both for his moral integrity, and the fact he had a better (First World) War than he did -Johnson has no respect for any of his peers, considering himself to be superior to everyone around him, a fate I suspect that knackered Trump who could have been 'Presidential' and saved his career, whereas he was just Trump, an ignorant, lazy man indifferent to the fate of others.

The rift between feelings and facts runs deep, and it doesn't matter if the mandates are temporary, the crisis on a long trajectory downhill, confidence in government is at an all time low. And feelings are important too -one recalls the mood when Mandela was released from prison in 1990, or when Tony Blair was elected Prime Minister in 1997 -yes, he really was popular once upon a time- and Obama had that singular quality of being likeable, which is gold for any aspiring politician. I look around and don't see many I like, and even fewer with a vision or a 'story' to tell that captures the imagination and wins elections. I think in 2024 in the US people will want a positive message, not a re-run of all the bad stuff, which is all Trump has.

Moreover, I fear that people will be so keen to put Covid into a box and send it to the Archive, that we will not use the Pandemic to investigate what went wrong in order to ensure it goes right next times. In the UK, Matt Hancock's utterly shocking lies and lethal consequences of the elderly sent from hospital to care homes where they died, is in need of an enquiry with legal instruments attached. After all, the Iraq Enquiry established that Tony Blair lied to us all, which we knew anyway, and where is he now? Untouched, undamaged.

Not just trust, but accountability too, is lacking. And without it, Liberal Democracy is weakened.

[broncofan]

Some of the hypocrisy is cringeworthy though. L.A Mayor Garcetti (who seems like a particular Eely individual) , when caught maskless with Mayor Breed and Magic Johnson, could’ve simply stated that they were all vaccinated and outside , so the threat seemed minimal. Instead , he stated that he held his breath when he took his mask off…really?! Stacey Abrams , who is often deemed a political genius, couldn’t see the potential political damage of taking a picture with an elementary school class, where all the tykes were masked, but she is without. Especially since masking young children is still a touchy subject. When confronted, she immediately went to a race based defense…until much later on , when she admitted her folly. There are lots of examples …some of them are clear mistakes…some of them are calculated…but the defensiveness is childish. Talk about weakening trust.
So there are people who do stupid things. And there are people who believe stupid things. But aren't there at least some cynical people who are using all of this as a wedge issue when the predictable result is fewer vaccinated people and fewer people wearing masks?

I'm not trying to detract from the obnoxiousness of people doing stupid things, but I've never wanted to seize on a stupid action by promoting a dangerous behavior. When Eliot Spitzer overpaid a prostitute for sex I didn't say "why don't I get to pay 4,300 dollars to sleep with a woman who is not super attractive." Okay that was a reach but I wanted a NYC example for you.

Fox News spent the early part of the pandemic telling its viewers that covid wasn't that dangerous. And I know occasionally Democrats also said stupid things but it was an everyday occurrence on Fox. When it became clear that Trump's response to covid was being scrutinized Fox mobilized in order to downplay the seriousness of covid as an agenda item instead of defending his response to it.

When hydroxychloroquine was proposed as a treatment somehow Trump thought he should get credit for an old anti-malarial drug that doesn't work for covid and it was a right-wing news item. And they literally promoted people yelling and screaming at their state capitols without masks early on as well.

I guess I'm asking myself this question: are most of the people who are unvaccinated refusing the shot because of hypocrisy by Democratic politicians and the occasional overreach of local authorities, or because there has been a consistent effort to amplify crankery on the right? Educated right-wing pundits are saying stuff like "I see Chris Rock was vaccinated and got covid. What was the point of vaccination again?" on their twitter accounts. This kind of sophistry helps make vaccine refusal a tribal marker for some Republicans.

When I see a Democratic politician not wear a mask when they should I think less of that politician. Why are Republicans being told that this means covid is like the flu and masks are worthless?

[broncofan]

I guess that goes to my point about asymmetry. Democrats have to be very careful about mistakes, inconsistencies and appearances of hypocrisy because they believe in a greater role for government, so trust is important. Republicans, on the other hand, don't seem to care so much about these things because they don't believe in government. For some of them, mistrust in government is a thing to be encouraged.
This is only somewhat related but early in the pandemic a 50 year old man who thought covid was like the common cold went to Mardi Gras, got covid, and died. When his family was interviewed they said something to the effect of, "Okay so it is serious and deadly but we would have believed that if Democrats hadn't politicized it."

How did Democrats politicize it? By responding to right-wingers like Rush Limbaugh and Jesse Waters who were saying it was mild by saying it was deadly? This is a kind of asymmetry. They were literally told by pundits they trusted that the virus wasn't anything to worry about, they believed it, got sick and died. But those people who tried to get them to take it seriously caused them not to because they were criticizing pundits and politicians that they love.

I'm not saying there isn't a right way to try to win people over. But as you kind of indicate there are some people who were not trying to encourage people to behave in a responsible way but had vested interests in doing the opposite. There was scheduled programming and punditry that had the intent of promoting treatments that weren't effective, of casting doubt on the effectiveness of vaccines in ways that were not skeptical but dishonest, and undermining public health guidance bc it could be seized on for ratings.

I probably look rigid in this but I suppose I now accept many of the premises of the article. There were missteps and they caused some harm but I think the willful stuff was much more influential and it was rife as can be.

[Stavros]

T
...there are some people who were not trying to encourage people to behave in a responsible way but had vested interests in doing the opposite. There was scheduled programming and punditry that had the intent of promoting treatments that weren't effective, of casting doubt on the effectiveness of vaccines in ways that were not skeptical but dishonest, and undermining public health guidance bc it could be seized on for ratings.


There is a paradox here. On the one hand, the public critics who saw an opportunity to attack the institutions of the US on the basis that nobody needs them, and they mislead the public anyway, I am not sure but Rand Paul seems to be on a mission to discredit not just Fauci but the science he represents. In addition, the sectarian nature of US politics meant that instead of creating a sense of solidarity, of 'we are all in this together', Trump went out of his way to deepen the divisions -consider that when Washington State and New York State were in the front line of the crisis, he did not offer help, or support or sympathy -he insulted and abused the Governors, while it is claimed Jared Kushner deliberately withheld Federally available PPE to the State of New York so that the Democrat Governor would look incapable and lose voters support. This kind of behaviour from the top was disgraceful, but was anyone surprised Trump behaved as he did, and that his supporters in the media waxed lyrical in their ridicule of science because of their ideological fixation on ending 'Big Government' and the 'Deep State'?

And yet, is it not also the case that on the ground, in communities and on the front line across the US, many more Americans went 'the extra mile' to help people they did not know, that they, in practical terms, ignored whatever drivel was coming out of the White House, and got on with the more important business of helping people affected by the virus? The Silent Majority creating a Silent Solidarity.

It begs the question -will Covid be seen as a moment that has changed the US for the better? Or have the weirdos and extremists so captured the 'centre ground' that talk of executions, rigged elections and voter suppression are delivering a fatal blow to the experiment in democacy that began in 1776, as Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez said the other day?

The Constitution is a document created by Compromise, yet now we are led to believe Compromise is not good politics, but a form of surrender. So is the US stronger as a consequence of Covid, or weaker?

[blackchubby38]

I am well thank you….the Big Apple - well, we will have to wait and see. If I had small children I would’ve either moved to the suburbs, small town or perhaps a different State, but we have a new Mayor and I am somewhat hopeful that he will create a better environment in NYC. I could elaborate further…but this is the Covid thread so I’ll leave it at that.

I’m fully vaxxed and boostered and will continue with the recommended regimen. For myself, this is the most logical course of action on all fronts. I’m not overweight, don’t smoke nor have any immune compromises at the moment, but I’ll be 60 in a few months - in one of the densest cities in the U.S…where vaccination rates are high…but fully aware that they’ll never be at 100%. Also, I enjoy going to restaurants, pubs, gyms and shows, none of which can be comfortably traversed without some medical protection…especially when ones decision making process is often hindered by ones own vices…and probably - ones own stupidity..lol.

It seemed like almost everyone in NYC had Omicron during the Christmas holidays, but most of my friends and relatives are vaccinated so that , for those who were infected, the symptoms were either mild (much like a cold) or non existent. I had either the flu or Omicron - I’ll never know for sure, because the only test I could get at the time was a PCR test which results were deemed invalid…two Rapid tests I was able to procure much later came back negative. At present, you can get either test for free all over the city (there’s one up the block from my address).

I hope you and everyone here remains healthy. I often continue to read some of the threads, but just don’t have the desire or personal drive to post.

Be well.

Just to piggyback on what you're saying about life here in NYC. If I had small children, I would move from here too. As of right now, the only thing keeping me here is the fact that I help look after two elderly parents.

[broncofan]

There is a paradox here. On the one hand, the public critics who saw an opportunity to attack the institutions of the US on the basis that nobody needs them, and they mislead the public anyway, I am not sure but Rand Paul seems to be on a mission to discredit not just Fauci but the science he represents. In addition, the sectarian nature of US politics meant that instead of creating a sense of solidarity, of 'we are all in this together', Trump went out of his way to deepen the divisions -consider that when Washington State and New York State were in the front line of the crisis, he did not offer help, or support or sympathy -he insulted and abused the Governors, while it is claimed Jared Kushner deliberately withheld Federally available PPE to the State of New York so that the Democrat Governor would look incapable and lose voters support. This kind of behaviour from the top was disgraceful, but was anyone surprised Trump behaved as he did, and that his supporters in the media waxed lyrical in their ridicule of science because of their ideological fixation on ending 'Big Government' and the 'Deep State'?

I acknowledge the fact that reducing the size of government is an ideological position held by Republicans but I also think some of what happened was based on political expediency. Trump has always been successful when he's been able to vilify someone. Even during the Republican primaries he had Little Marco to mock or Lyin Ted to set up as the enemy. So when the virus started spreading and Jared Kushner came up with the harebrained idea that it showed a media double standard because nobody was so concerned about swine flu, he was ready to dust off the old playbook.

The things that Trump said were not just normal political truth stretching but showed a sociopathic indifference to the effects of his self-serving statements. He accused doctors of inflating covid death numbers. He fired Rick Bright, a man who is a noted vaccine maker, because Bright said he didn't think hydroxychloroquine (hcq) was an effective Covid treatment. He called researchers at Johns Hopkins "Trump haters" when they found hcq was not better than placebo. He called covid "a flu" even if he later backtracked on that. After he got covid he said that he wasn't sure whether masks were effective. I am probably forgetting some notable statements but these are not unforced errors. These are self-serving falsehoods that got people killed and set the tone of antagonism towards public health. And they weren't intended to serve anyone but himself.

If you then look at the direction right-wing media took, I think they were boxed into tying it to ideology. They couldn't outright say vaccines are dangerous without destroying their credibility so they attacked employer mandates as encroachments on freedom but this conflicts with another ideological commitment they have; the commitment to free markets. In the past they have consistently held that employers have the prerogative to put whatever conditions they want on employment and on patronizing private places of business. So what was different here? It was no longer about free market ideology but about naked selfish ambition.

I have watched segments from the talking heads on Fox. To me it is clear that the segments have the effect of glorifying resistance to vaccines and championing people who refuse to get them. Some of the people who have appeared in these interviews with Laura Ingraham for instance have since died of covid.

[Stavros]

I acknowledge the fact that reducing the size of government is an ideological position held by Republicans but I also think some of what happened was based on political expediency.


I think there is a deeper problem than just political expediency. It is hard to know with Trump because he is just not intelligent enough to have thought deeply about the US political system, but there are around him people who do have an agenda for change, Bannon being the most obvious one.

We have dealt with Conspiracy theories before on HA, and the ease with which the multi-layered US political system encourages cospiracies because decison-making can often get lost in the corridors of power at county, state and Federal levels. But most theories can be and are debunked, the latest nonsense being that the Clinton campaign spied on the Trump campaign in 2016. The obsession Trump has with Hillary Clinton is probably something only a Psychologist can explain, but the tactic to divert attention away from his real problems does at least create a story for Fox to follow even if they know it is just pigswill. Though there is the irony that if there were Russian smart phones in Trump Tower in 2016 they were more likely to have been in the Trump campaign's pockets. Whatever.

The real danger here is that Democracy and the Rule of Law is being challenged at a level that should have you worried as an American more than anything else. I have pointed out in other posts that States which have Rights, are now transforming those Rights into a form of Power that in effect, repudiates any law passed by the US Congress. The clearest example is the use States are making of their Right to define term limits to deny American women their legal right to an Abortion, by making a termination all but impossible in the State. The use of State laws on elections to deny Americans the right to vote, if they have a criminal record, or to make the registration and actual voting so hard people don't bother, is another example of the Voting Rights of citizens 'guaranteed' by Congress interfered with and in some cases, transparently aimed at minority communities.

Lastly, consider the claim of a protestor in Ottawa -"“I ain’t going anywhere,” said Pat King, one of protest organizers. “I haven’t overstayed my welcome. My taxes paid for me to be here.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/17/canada-trucker-protest-police-crackdown

We can ignore the comparisons of Justin Trudeau with Hitler and other dictators, most people don't take that seriously, but when it comes to the Rule of Law, you have a serious problem when the concept of the 'Sovereign Citizen' is used. To me this appears to be an indivdual deciding what the law is, and not Congress, or the Supreme Court or even the local police, if they disagree with something, or protest in such a way that appears to either break the law, or interfere with other people's lives- they not only choose to behave in this way, they believe they have a Right to do so.

It is a peculiar form of solipsism that would not stand up to scrutiny in any Court, but what it also does is register the alienation with the Rule of Law and the status quo that Trump has sought to change. In this sense, Trump represents a threat to US democracy and the Rule of Law because he not ony believes it does not apply to him and his ambitions, but it has become the central theme in his supporters in the Republican Party and beyond. At a very crude level, the murder of Ahmaud Arbery is an example of some White men deciding they are the law in Georgia, and killing someone as a result. At a supposedly more sophisticated level, it is the criticism of Fauci, of Vaccines, and Vaccine Mandates, from the law protecting the citizen, to the law penalizing the citizen.

Dismantling the Rule of Law is a key weapon in the New Wave Fascism that Bannon has been promoting. It starts by attacking the 'system' as it is -corrupt, dysfunctional, partisan- and seeks to replace it, using historic examples in US law as if this gives their agenda for change its legitimacy. The use of the 'cultural' agenda introduces critical issues of Race and Gender into the debate on the basis that it is what the 'White Heterosexual Christians' of America want to hear, though I think they exaggrate ther importance to all but some hysterical parents; but what it does is seek to re-habilitate Race as the defining issue in the US, where the definition is simple -if you ain't white like me you don't belong here.

So wrapped up in that anti-science rhetoric is a much more insidious poison. It gnarls on the bark of the tree of knowledge, slowly eating away the fabric until it falls apart.

Perhaps though, it will be the Rule of Law that brings the Trump era to its close. The time has come when he can't plead the Fifth forever.

"During his 2016 presidential election campaign, he ridiculed the practice, saying “the mob takes the fifth. If you’re innocent, why are you taking the fifth amendment?”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/17/donald-trump-children-testify-new-york-fraud-investigation

[broncofan]

We can ignore the comparisons of Justin Trudeau with Hitler and other dictators, most people don't take that seriously, but when it comes to the Rule of Law, you have a serious problem when the concept of the 'Sovereign Citizen' is used. To me this appears to be an indivdual deciding what the law is, and not Congress, or the Supreme Court or even the local police, if they disagree with something, or protest in such a way that appears to either break the law, or interfere with other people's lives- they not only choose to behave in this way, they believe they have a Right to do so.

It is a peculiar form of solipsism that would not stand up to scrutiny in any Court, but what it also does is register the alienation with the Rule of Law and the status quo that Trump has sought to change.
The idea of the unaccountable person is most dangerous if courts cannot function and laws can't be enforced. Before Trump was President I saw an appellate brief written pro se (meaning drafted by the defendant instead of a lawyer) that made the sovereign citizen argument. I have since seen a bunch of versions of it and read appeals courts decisions responding to it. My understanding is that they don't think courts have jurisdiction over them and they are not subject to laws they are prosecuted under. It is one of the few guaranteed ways to lose an appeal.

One version claims that if the courtroom's flag has fringe on it then the courtroom is really an admiralty court and they can only be prosecuted for acts committed on the high seas. Another version invokes the Uniform Commercial Code, which dictates the terms of contracts for goods. I can't remember what they claim the Uniform Commercial Code says about whether they can be prosecuted. On its terms it literally sets rules for contracts involving commercial sales of goods.

We are still at the point where regardless of political affiliation no Judge would accept this argument, though it's troubling that its general ethos has become absorbed by a lot of people. Likewise the arguments made by Trump's lawyers yesterday in NYC which I might write about later were also frivolous. He really does himself a disservice by not hiring good attorneys.

I'm hoping we don't get to a point where partisanship can erode even the most basic understanding of the law and how it applies. I suppose that the mainstreaming of science denying arguments show how easy it is for the truth to be lost and for people to give into wish fulfillment thinking.

[Stavros]

Fascinating post, but not mostly about Covid.

I think we can all agree that Science deals with facts and that the facts can change. But there is a world of difference between challenging a fact, and denying it, not least when those denying it have no interest in the science. Rand Paul strikes me as the example with his attacks on Dr Fauci, which he makes regardless of any fact, just to score points with those whom I suppose vote for him.

[broncofan]

So I am linking the article from JAMA of the most recent study of Ivermectin. The first I heard of it was in August of last year when there were studies that showed a lot of noise but not much supporting evidence. Most of the virologists I followed were pretty confident it would not be an effective treatment. When HCQ was studied over and over again its adherents would move the goalposts and say "now administer it with zinc", "administer it with large infusions of vitamin d". It was an enormous waste of research and the way it was pitched was appalling.

In this study it performed worse than placebo in preventing progression to severe disease. In short, just another negative study indicating it doesn't work as a covid treatment.

Note: even without access if you click "abstract" on the right side of your screen you can get the synopsis. You can actually get the rest of the study as well.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2789362?guestAccessKey=58760460-df0f-4790-9257-8f3682dca39b&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=021822 (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2789362?guestAccessKey=58760460-df0f-4790-9257-8f3682dca39b&utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_content=tfl&utm_term=021822)

[Ben]

Official New Covid Policy: Pretend It Isn’t Happening (https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/02/18/official-new-covid-policy-pretend-it-isnt-happening/):

https://www.counterpunch.org/2022/02/18/official-new-covid-policy-pretend-it-isnt-happening/

[Ben]

Experts urge US cities and states to prep for future outbreaks as Omicron slows:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/07/us-covid-future-variants-outbreaks-omicron

[blackchubby38]

This is going to be an interesting debate going forward. I wonder which side is going to win:


Moderna president: 4th vaccine dose only necessary for certain groups

ww.yahoo.com/news/moderna-president-4th-vaccine-dose-223458773.html



Pfizer CEO Says Fourth Covid Vaccine Dose ‘Necessary’

www.yahoo.com/finance/m/7de0e984-db82-3a28-9182-6e01221b8ac0/pfizer-ceo-says-fourth-covid.html

[broncofan]

I've had three shots and got covid two weeks ago. We know there are plenty of breakthrough infections with omicron so this isn't surprising. I got infected at my nephew's bar mitzvah. It was the first time I've been in public without a mask, which I did out of pressure not to stand out at the party. At the synagogue everyone wore masks even when singing and I was pleased about that. The party was uncomfortable for me and sure enough...

Anyhow, I did not get super sick but it was probably the equivalent of the average flu for me even with three shots. I had fever, sore throat, headaches, and really crazy night sweats. No breathing problems. It's about two weeks later and I'm back to work a little tired. No lingering symptoms so I feel very fortunate that I was vaccinated.

[sukumvit boy]

Wow broncofan , I'm glad you're OK . Just think ,now
you should have 'super immunity ' . I too have had my 1st booster about 6 months ago but I'm continuing to wear a mask in enclosed spaces, even grosery shopping , etc
Studies show that immunity begins to wane about 8 months from your last immunization , the second booster has been approved but is not yet available here in WA state ,where I now live.

[Stavros]

I've had three shots and got covid two weeks ago. We know there are plenty of breakthrough infections with omicron so this isn't surprising. I got infected at my nephew's bar mitzvah. It was the first time I've been in public without a mask, which I did out of pressure not to stand out at the party. At the synagogue everyone wore masks even when singing and I was pleased about that. The party was uncomfortable for me and sure enough...

Anyhow, I did not get super sick but it was probably the equivalent of the average flu for me even with three shots. I had fever, sore throat, headaches, and really crazy night sweats. No breathing problems. It's about two weeks later and I'm back to work a little tired. No lingering symptoms so I feel very fortunate that I was vaccinated.

Sorry to hear about your illness. I think we may be moving to a bi-annual vaccination regime if, as seems to be the case, immunity from the first round of vaccinations wears off. The current variants may not be as lethal as the original virus, though people in my age group may need hospitalization, but as your post indicates, the infection is serious enough to stop everything.

Below is a link to current situation in UK, where there was a surge between January-March that may be tapering off this month. As with Sukumvit Boy, I wear a mask on transport and in shops, and wish more people would do so too.

Covid-19 in the UK: How many coronavirus cases are there in my area? - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274)

[broncofan]

Wow broncofan , I'm glad you're OK . Just think ,now
you should have 'super immunity ' . I too have had my 1st booster about 6 months ago but I'm continuing to wear a mask in enclosed spaces, even grosery shopping , etc
Studies show that immunity begins to wane about 8 months from your last immunization , the second booster has been approved but is not yet available here in WA state ,where I now live.
Yes, I hope you're able to get your second booster soon. I will get one as soon as I'm eligible and it's available etc. I have to look into it. I also take the same approach you do with masks, whether in grocery stores, shops, even most workplace spaces. This was literally the one time I poke my head out. In fairness I was aware it was not a very safe event I was at and it was way out of my comfort zone.

Stavros, the first week I got a call from a charity I volunteer for. The lady who runs it previously had covid and it was so minor she was better a couple days after getting a little scratchy throat. She knew I had covid but wanted me to do some work for her and it's the first time I ever said no to her. I had what is potentially a deadly disease, yes I have some immunization, but I felt like shit, and told her I shouldn't be doing anything except resting until my symptoms were gone. She understood. I was glad I was able to get the same consideration from work.

I've given my parents links for availability of paxlovid were they to get sick. Biden had said pharmacies were going to have "test and treat" but I don't think it came to fruition completely. In some pharmacies maybe you can do that, others require a prescription is my understanding. Paxlovid is the drug that in high risk patients showed 88% reduction in hospitalization rate. The treatment cohort had 0 deaths compared to 10 in the placebo group but deaths was not the tested endpoint. Although highest risk patients are unvaccinated, there's no theoretical reason paxlovid would not also be helpful in vaccinated people and I think my parents would be eligible though this has not been communicated very well.

[blackchubby38]

I had a breakthrough infection back at the end of February. The timeline for me was like this:

February 23/24- I felt like I was coming down with a cold. So I took a sick day on the 24th, which was a Friday. I felt well enough to go back to work on Monday, although for most of the day I had a runny nose. Coincidentally, I read in a Covid patient's medical record that he too had a runny nose and that's what made me get tested on Tuesday, the 27th. This was the third Covid test that I ever took and this time I knew something was different when my nose reacted differently to the cotton swab. I got the call the next morning that I tested positive and had to stay home for the rest of the week.

Even though I had mild symptoms(I felt like I did when I normally had a cold), they were annoying and I made an appointment to receive the Monoclonal antibody treatment on the Monday that I was scheduled to go back to work. Mainly because of the chest discomfort. But since I spent most of my time in quarantine doing my usual biweekly house cleaning, I didn't go through with the treatment and I decided that I felt well enough to return to work. By the end of that week, I would say that I was pretty much back to my old self. Although for awhile there, I had blood in my mucous. But as someone who has sinus problems, I'm pretty much use to that.

So now since I apparently have super immunity, I haven't decided yet if I'm going to get a booster shot if they're made available. I'm waiting to see what the final decision is going to be on whether most of the population needs one. But if I have to get one, I'm going with Moderna this time.

[sukumvit boy]

Nice to hear you recovered well blackchubby38.
It certainly looks like we all need to continue masking in certain enclosed situations , and don't forget hand washing after being in public .
Why do you say that about the Moderna shot? What did you have before?

[blackchubby38]

Nice to hear you recovered well blackchubby38.
It certainly looks like we all need to continue masking in certain enclosed situations , and don't forget hand washing after being in public .
Why do you say that about the Moderna shot? What did you have before?

Pfizer. But I'm thinking its time to take the vaccine that was once described as the Sledgehammer.

BTW, Since we are on the topic of booster shots:

Why Experts Can’t Seem to Agree on Boosters

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/13/opinion/covid-booster-shot.html


And since Broncofan brought up "test and treat":


‘Test-to-treat’ could transform the pandemic

thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/3266378-test-to-treat-could-transform-the-pandemic/

[sukumvit boy]

I couldn't access the NYT link .But I certainly agree that test and treat is is the best way to go. I had pfizer and my partner had Moderna initial vaccinations and 1st boosters . I really think that both offer you the best protection available in practical terms with minor differences in terms of keeping you out ofthe hospital and alive.I thought that for some odd reason you might have had one of the other vaccines out there.
Take heart, having survived ,there is little doubt that you now have exceptionally strong immunity but should still get the 2nd booster when it becoms available . Will they give you a Pfiser booster if you have had Moderna all along ? I don't know.

[Ben]

Lack of Covid testing leaves researchers blind to evolution patterns, WHO warns
Potentially dangerous mutations of the virus could go unnoticed due to testing cuts, UN health agency says: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/26/lack-of-covid-testing-leaves-researches-blind-to-evolution-patterns-who-warns (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/26/lack-of-covid-testing-leaves-researches-blind-to-evolution-patterns-who-warns)

[Stavros]

Not just the variants that are dangerous...is the RNC going to expel this guy or disown him or do something to remove him from public office? Nah...why?

"The chairman of the Oklahoma (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/oklahoma) Republican Party received a loud cheer at a campaign event after calling for Anthony Fauci (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/anthony-fauci) to be “put in front of a firing squad (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/firing-squad)”.
John Bennett, who is also running for Congress (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/congress), said Dr Fauci should be tried and executed without offering any explanation what for at a campaign stop ahead of his June primary."
Republicans cheer as GOP candidate says Fauci should be executed by firing squad | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/fauci-republicans-firing-squad-executed-b2066675.html)

[Stavros]

A million deaths from Covid in the US, and some explanations why- and consider the failures of the 'Pro-Life' party that bear a heavy responsibility for that million....

"“You can’t separate our failure in the pandemic from conflicts over ideology and politics,” said Blumenthal. “The approach to the pandemic became enmeshed in people’s party affiliation and in their views towards government.”
‘Failure of an American ideology’: why Covid has an outsized impact on the US | US healthcare | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/15/us-public-health-healthcare-covid-society)

[Ben]

Evidence of Possible Lab Origin of Covid-19:
https://theintercept.com/2022/05/19/covid-lab-leak-evidence-jeffrey-sachs/

[broncofan]

Biden tested positive for covid either yesterday or the day before. He has been vaccinated and boosted twice and is being prescribed Paxlovid, the pfizer antiviral that was shown to be very effective at preventing hospitalization in clinical trials. It will be interesting to see how his case progresses but hopefully it is mild and he doesn't have the rebound of symptoms that some people do after they finish the five day course.

In fall, a vaccine that provides enhanced protection against omicron is expected to be ready for the public. The vaccines we have don't provide very much protection against infection but still seem to be fairly effective against severe disease. I've read it's a good idea for our vaccines to be updated as there's a higher probability that new variants are descendants of omicron and we should prime our immune system with antigen that's closer to what's actually circulating. There's a chance that some protection against infection is restored and that we maintain protection against severe disease as new variants continue to appear.

I'll see if I can find an article I like with info about the updated vaccines.

[broncofan]

For science geeks out there, one reason I've read that omicron vaccines have been difficult to develop is due to something called immunological imprinting. The catchier rhetorical phrase is "original antigenic sin". Apparently your first exposure to a type of virus makes it more difficult for you to produce antibodies that tackle slightly different variants of that virus. I think the idea is that your immune response is anchored a bit to the first version you've seen.

Here's a definition I found: Immune imprinting is a phenomenon whereby initial exposure to one virus strain effectively primes B cell memory and limits the development of memory B cells and neutralizing antibodies against new minor variant strains of the virus.

Here's an earlier article about the phenomenon and its relevance to vaccines tailored to newer variants but there's a lot of discussion about it that's over my head. Many virologists I follow attribute some of the slowness in development to overcoming this phenomenon. What I haven't heard discussed is market failure. As long as boosters provide protection against severe disease what incentives do companies (mainly Pfizer and Moderna) have to produce more effective vaccines (until booster rates drop which they probably are doing)?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8440232/

[Dutchman6969]

The vaccines have failed. Many are claiming it is safe when the VAERS and Pfizer data say otherwise. How can you call these mRNA shots a success when many are on their 4th shot in 2 years?

It is also hard to ignore all of the reports coming to the forefront regarding myocarditis, excess mortality of the fully vaccinated, rise in cancer cases of the fully vaccinated, and the sudden deaths of so many athletes.

Between 2002 and 2010, Pfizer was fined $3 billion in criminal convictions, civil penalties and jury awards, including a $2.3 billion fine in 2009, the then-largest health care fraud fine in American history. In 2011, Pfizer paid $14.5 million to settle charges of illegal marketing, and in 2014 they settled charges relating to unlawful marketing of the kidney transplant drug Rapamune to the tune of $35 million.


For those that have already been boosted, what are you hoping to gain at this point? There seems to be no clear upside with a lot of potential downside to getting this shot.

[Stavros]

The vaccines I took have not failed. So there.

Poster has form.

Dutchman6969 (u/Dutchman6969) - Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/user/Dutchman6969/)

Posts by u/Dutchman6969 ・ popular.pics ・ Viewer for Reddit (https://www.popular.pics/reddit/u/Dutchman6969)

Truth is the first casualty in war. We have no idea what it actually happening in Ukraine as we enter a new phase of the informational and psychological war. ・ popular.pics ・ Viewer for Reddit (https://www.popular.pics/reddit/post/t0klc0)

[sukumvit boy]

Hi Stavros hope all is well .
The new Pfiser booster can be taken 4 months after your previous vaccination or booster shot , in my case after my 2nd Pfiser booster.
Stavros says it all, my vaccinations "have not failed "me !

[MrFanti]

China slams new WHO report suggesting further investigation into Covid ‘lab leak’ theory
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/covid-19-urges-investigation-chinese-wuhan-lab-leak-theory-rcna32910
You mean politics like the WHO changing it's tune?

[broncofan]

I just signed up to get the moderna bivalent booster vaccine a week from today. The vaccines are being updated under the same regulatory protocol that allows companies to update flu vaccines annually as the flu virus produces new variants. I'll let you know how it goes.

[blackchubby38]

Gov. Kathy Hochul lifts MTA, commuter rail mask requirement

https://nypost.com/2022/09/07/gov-kathy-hochul-lifts-mta-commuter-rail-mask-requirement/


Powerful division’ among public health leaders over how to pivot Covid-19 messaging


https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/06/health/public-health-covid-messaging/index.html

[Stavros]

Gov. Kathy Hochul lifts MTA, commuter rail mask requirement
https://nypost.com/2022/09/07/gov-kathy-hochul-lifts-mta-commuter-rail-mask-requirement/

Powerful division’ among public health leaders over how to pivot Covid-19 messaging
https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/06/health/public-health-covid-messaging/index.html

When I was in Germany in July masks were, and as far as I know, still are required on all forms of public transport.

I don't see the difference between medicine and public health, but a holistic view which tries to understand the dynamic relationship of the two.

As for health professionals being threatened with murder, this is lunacy, but a sad reflection of the fact that a former, but ignorant President failed to shoulder his responsibility for public policy, and contributed to the now almost constant attacks on law and order. How the US declined to such a condition of violence, ignorance and threat is not an easy question to answer, and how it repairs the damage when so many people still refuse to accept both the science and the public health dimensions of Covid I do not know.

I have been in an out of hospital in the last month or so and we are obliged to wear masks throughout the building, unless admitted as a patient. And even then a mask is required when leaving the ward for, say, x-ray or some other department.

[broncofan]

I just signed up to get the moderna bivalent booster vaccine a week from today. The vaccines are being updated under the same regulatory protocol that allows companies to update flu vaccines annually as the flu virus produces new variants. I'll let you know how it goes.
I had the shot on Tuesday evening and it was my first shot from Moderna. My previous shots and boosters were all pfizer. It also is the first shot that is formulated to protect against Omicron (specifically Ba.5).

With the pfizer shots I had headache, sore arm, and with the second booster swollen lymph nodes under my arm pit. My reaction this time was slightly more intense in that I had very sore arm and pretty bad nausea. It was the first shot I felt a little bit sick with yesterday but I feel fine today other than the sore arm.

Eventually we'll get some good data on how effective the new shot is in preventing infection. We know having two shots plus boosters protects against hospitalization and death pretty well, but we'll see how much better the Moderna shot is at preventing infection. The animal data they have indicates it produces a greater antibody response to ba.5 than the previous shots and that's good bc ba.5 is more genetically related to the variants circulating (some of which are ba.5).

[Stavros]

I had the Moderna booster last Thursday and it hit me for six, and then my annual flu jab on Saturday, so I have been sleeping for most of the last four days, and this morning tested positive for Covid after telling a friend about an unusually sore throat. I do have an underlying condition with regard to my kidney problems, and I think the positive test is more a consequence of that and the booster and the flu jab combined, so I would not caution anyone against having the Moderna vaccine. I have been lucky in the last two years, until today. And it is something that can be dealt with easily, annoying as it.

[Jericho]

Glad you're alive and in stalwart sprits...Otherwise that would have made my last post seem a tad insensitive! :whistle:

[Stavros]

Glad you're alive and in stalwart sprits...Otherwise that would have made my last post seem a tad insensitive! :whistle:

No need to worry, it is just a form of flu now with a sore throat, the prior histories of vaccination have diminished the impact of Covid. In any event, be sure to get a postcard from the other side!

[broncofan]

No need to worry, it is just a form of flu now with a sore throat, the prior histories of vaccination have diminished the impact of Covid. In any event, be sure to get a postcard from the other side!
My brother kept getting out of bed and doing work every time he felt a bit better (this only prolonged it a few days but still...)

Take it easy. I'd tell you to watch some films but we know you can get worked up about subpar cinema!!!!

[broncofan]

Anyhow, feel better!

[Ben]

Biden Declared the Pandemic Over. I Immediately Got COVID: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/09/biden-declared-the-pandemic-over-i-immediately-got-covid

[Stavros]

My brother kept getting out of bed and doing work every time he felt a bit better (this only prolonged it a few days but still...)

Take it easy. I'd tell you to watch some films but we know you can get worked up about subpar cinema!!!!

Thanks for your concern, it is boring but necessary. Have you heard of Paxlovid? I believe Biden was given it when he was Covid Positive, but I am not eligible owing to pre-existing conditions.

[blackchubby38]

U.S. to end COVID-19 emergency declarations on May 11


http://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-end-covid-19-emergency-declarations-may-11-2023-01-30/

[Stavros]

I find this an unsatisfactory claim, not least because for 'security reasons' the FBI Director cannot or will not say why he has reached what is, in any case, not a conclusion, but an official speculation-

"The FBI has for quite some time now assessed that the origins of the pandemic are most likely a potential lab incident,".
FBI chief Christopher Wray says China lab leak most likely - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64806903)

I regret to say I think this is all politics, and may have more to do with the shaky relations between China and the US with regard to Taiwan. and China's support for Putin's unwinnable war in Ukraine.

It appears to dismiss the origins as a tragic transfer from animals to human, though historically this has been a key conduit in epidemics, and even though it remains for many perhaps the majority of scientists the 'most likely' explanation. I think it is a sad day if politics is once again trumping science, though it doesn't surprise me.

Thus the drip-drip revelations in the Telegraph in the UK of what was going on with Matt Hancock when he was Secretary of State for Health and Boris Johnson Prime Minister, only aggravates the feeling these people even after scientific advice were more concerned with the politics - as Johnson has often been quoted: 'let the bodies pile high' being a brutal way of doing nothing.

The mere fact that Hancock handed so much of his WhatsApp messages to Isabel Oakeshott would in itself be an epic moment of jaw-dropping stupidity, were Hancock as we now know, not an epic, jaw-dropping failure as a politician. Oakeshott -yes, a scion of that famous Tory family (eg Michael Oakeshott, Conservative philosopher) -is a partner of Richard Tice, who leads the Reform Party, that replaced the Brexit Party that was once led by UKIP Supremo Nigel Farage. In other words, 100% hostile to....Matt Hancock's party.

Now Hancock complains the quotes in the Telegraph are being made out of context. When a dickhead meets a treacherous journalist, what is the outcome, even as the official enquiry continues at its (deliberately?) glacial pace?
What do Matt Hancock’s WhatsApp messages show? Not what the Telegraph wants us to see | Devi Sridhar | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/01/matt-hancock-whatsapp-messages-telegraph-covid-pandemic)

For once I would like someone to stand up for the relatives of those who died and those who survived, not just in the UK but elsewhere too. Did Jared Kushner deliberately withhold PPE from the State of New York on the basis that the more who died there the worse it would be for the Democrats running the State? If that is true, why hasn't he been arrested and charged with a most serious crime, like Accessory to Murder- ?

Because it is not true that as Wray has claimed that the 'lab leak' led to so many deaths worldwide -advanced countries like the UK and the US had the political authority and the scientific means to halt the pandemic in its tracks -not only did they not do so, but the decisions in the US on wearing -or not wearing masks in public, and the hostility to vaccinations means they too must join Kushner in the Dock, notably that idiot in Florida.

Are we on the cusp of a reckoning, or a massive swerve by those in power to stop it?

[Stavros]

Matt Hancock and Betrayal...is he the most stupid politician in Britain?

Matt Hancock responds to leak of lockdown WhatsApp messages (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/matt-hancock-responds-leak-lockdown-080200196.html)

[blackchubby38]

[QUOTE=Stavros;2067245]I find this an unsatisfactory claim, not least because for 'security reasons' the FBI Director cannot or will not say why he has reached what is, in any case, not a conclusion, but an official speculation-

"The FBI has for quite some time now assessed that the origins of the pandemic are most likely a potential lab incident,".
FBI chief Christopher Wray says China lab leak most likely - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64806903)

I regret to say I think this is all politics, and may have more to do with the shaky relations between China and the US with regard to Taiwan. and China's support for Putin's unwinnable war in Ukraine.

It appears to dismiss the origins as a tragic transfer from animals to human, though historically this has been a key conduit in epidemics, and even though it remains for many perhaps the majority of scientists the 'most likely' explanation. I think it is a sad day if politics is once again trumping science, though it doesn't surprise me.

/QUOTE]

Or maybe its not political. Maybe the lab leak theory is a viable one and should be treated as such. If anything to prevent another lab leak from happening again. As is explained in this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfWWvHJCuaQ

I also think the lab leak theory doesn't dismiss the animal to human transfer one either. When the pandemic first started, I was neutral on the origins of Covid-19. I believed either theory was possible. But as time has passed, I'm leaning more towards to the lab leak one. As I stated in post that I made on 05/26/2021:

"I think it coming from a lab is a credible theory. But I don't think it was something that China developed as a weapon or if they did something they released intentionally. Because if they did, I think that is a legit reason for a declaration of war or some sort of military action. Not only by the United States, but some other countries as well. I do think that once it was leaked, China wasn't as forthcoming about it as they should have been.

I think if it was leaked from a lab, it was something that happened purely by accident. Either due to negligence or someone making a very costly mistake."

That doesn't mean I don't believe in the animal to human transfer theory. I'm still going to keep an open mind about that. Every viable theory should be on the table and should be discussed without fear of backlash. Like Jon Stewart said last week:

Jon Stewart recalls outrage after he backed COVID-19 lab leak theory: ‘F–k you, I’m done’

http://nypost.com/2023/02/28/jon-stewart-recalls-outrage-after-he-backed-covid-19-lab-leak-theory-f-k-you-im-done/


Also IF (I can't stress those two words enough) this turns out to be true, it gives people another reason to not trust cable news networks:

CNN ex-boss Jeff Zucker told staff not to probe ‘lab leak’ theory because it was ‘Trump talking point

http://nypost.com/2023/03/06/cnn-ex-boss-jeff-zucker-told-staff-not-to-probe-lab-leak-theory/

[Stavros]

I can't disagree with you Blackchubby, I don't think we will ever have a definitive explanation, because the Chinese will not allow it.

At the moment, the focus is on Covid Management, and I think that will or should be more fruitful if it informs Govt strategy going forward. What will happen when the next pandemic occurs?

"The Lockdown Files" in the Telegraph are thus a rearguard action that is designed by people with names like Barclay, Koch and Murdoch whose mission in life is to discredit Govt and thus to discredit the actions the UK Govt took when the pandemic began.

Of course in a panic, Govt is going to make mistakes, and the UK was as cursed with incompetent fools like Johnson and Hancock, as the US was by Trump and Kushner. In the latter case, so venal is Trump, so soaked in crime and lies, nobody outside his fanbase even wants to believe what he said or says, and that is the casualty of the war on truth that is now becoming, via Ron De Santis, a war on reality which is what his vengeance on Critical Race Theory -which he doesn't understand- has become, together with the full frontal assault on Free Speech, Trans and Women's Rights. A lot in the US depends on whether or not the Republicans can mount a serious challenge to Biden, who appears set for the 2024 nomination, because they no longer believe in the Union of 50 States.

Thus, via the Telegraph for all its sins, what do you think now, of the Lockdown Strategies that were imposed on citizens, and the 'Mask Mandates'? The Telegraph wants to depict these as mistakes in terms of health policy, finance and politics, but has not in my view offered any alternative to the initial response of Boris Johnson: do nothing, set the virus free, and 'let the bodies pile high'.

The official Covid review is still in progress in the UK, nobody knows when its report will be published. I don't know if there is one in the US, but I think the arguments, pre-vaccination will focus on Masks, PPE, and Lockdowns, and then the vaccine roll-out and which States have a better record than others - this list suggests Republican run States did not do as well as Democrat States, but that judgment is based on stats.
The Best and Worst States to Work in America – during COVID-19 (oxfamamerica.org) (https://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/countries/united-states/poverty-in-the-us/covid-map/)

On the Politics Trump got it wrong, but did De Santis also get it wrong?

More to the point, how does one combat an airborne virus? With Masks for sure, with social distancing, with vaccines. But as the Telegraph has shown, time and again, politicians were told by the scientists they employed what to do, and then did something different. Hancock was convinced his stewardship at Health was the start of even better things, which seems to have occupied his mind more than the fate of the people.

Covid exposed bad management, but have we learned from the experience, and will citizens trust the Govt the next time an epidemic or a pandemic threatens public health?

[blackchubby38]

I meant to post this one time, but I never got around to it. Its from 12/15/2021.

Covid’s deadly trade-offs, by the numbers: How each state has fared in the pandemic

http://www.politico.com/interactives/2021/covid-by-the-numbers-how-each-state-fared-on-our-pandemic-scorecard/

[filghy2]

It looks like a reasonable attempt at an objective analysis, but there are some inherent limitations.

1. States are not equal in their vulnerability to a pandemic. More densely-populated states are likely be worse affected than lightly-populated states, which also means their economies would be more affected, regardless of the policy response. We have no way of knowing what would have happened in world with no policy responses. It looks like lightly-populated states generally did better overall, but is that because they made better policy choices or just because they were less vulnerable?

2. December 2021 is really too early to make a proper assessment because the pandemic was still in full swing and the economic recovery was just beginning. Some of the economic impacts may have been temporary and could be reversed later, but deaths are obviously permanent. I don't know if anyone has done a later analysis - it looks like Politico hasn't.

[Stavros]

I meant to post this one time, but I never got around to it. Its from 12/15/2021.

Covid’s deadly trade-offs, by the numbers: How each state has fared in the pandemic

http://www.politico.com/interactives/2021/covid-by-the-numbers-how-each-state-fared-on-our-pandemic-scorecard/

The aim of the Telegraph revelations, in advance or as a substitute for the conclusions of the UK's offiicial enquiry, is to sway individual opinion -not so much against Johnson and Hancock -two lost causes anyway- but the key policy areas of Lockdown and Mask Mandates.

So I was rather hoping for your personal opinion on Masks and Lockdown strategies, not least because the experience of New York was different from, say, Florida. That said, you are under no obligation to tell anyone what your views are.

From my perspective, I supported both the Lockdowns/Social Distancing, and the Mask Mandates. That I was in a vulnerable position early on in the pandemic but have only tested positive once, post-vaccination, underlines my belief in the regulations.

[blackchubby38]

Here is another article I meant to post when I initially saw it. Its from June 3, 2021.


California mandated masks. Florida opened its restaurants. Did any of it matter?

Which Covid-19 restrictions really worked — and which ones really didn’t?

http://www.vox.com/coronavirus-covid19/22456544/covid-19-mask-mandates-lockdown-debate-evidence

[Stavros]

Here is another article I meant to post when I initially saw it. Its from June 3, 2021.
California mandated masks. Florida opened its restaurants. Did any of it matter?
Which Covid-19 restrictions really worked — and which ones really didn’t?


An interesting article, for which thanks are in order, though I also note you don't have a personal opinion you want to share.

The links below point to the arguments not covered in the link you offered, specifically the impact of lockdowns on the economy, and the view that was current at the time that the health of the economy was more important than the health of the people. Esther McVay, who was in Boris Johnson's Govt at the time, led a debate on these issues, and pointed out that-

"GDP declined by 11% in 2020, the steepest drop since consistent records began in 1948 and, based on less precise estimates of GDP going back further, the contraction in 2020 was the largest since 1709. During the first lockdown, UK GDP was 26% lower in April than only two months earlier in February. More than 8 million workers were furloughed during April and May 2020, peaking at 8.9 million—roughly a third of all employees—in May 2020. Overall, 11.7 million jobs were furloughed."
Covid-19: Economic Impact of Lockdowns - Hansard - UK Parliament (https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2022-11-29/debates/89582334-28F5-4689-BBEA-F92CDDAE6DC7/Covid-19EconomicImpactOfLockdowns)

But she also goes on to argue that 'Project Fear' meant that the public complied with Govt restrictions out of fear as much as a logical connection between a vital outbreak and the best measures to combat it -ie Masks and Lockdowns. Having cited at the start Niall Ferguson's view that the 'West' would never impose the draconian social measures used in China, he then points out that in fact they did.

And this is part of the current campaign by the Libertarian/Anarchist/Hate Govt in the Telegraph to persuade people Govt got it wrong, and at a catastrophic price in terms of lost revenue, lost jobs, and in Treasury policy massive Govt borrowing, over-generous furlough schemes and fraud on a scale rarely seen in Govt.

A more measured view based on Stats from a Treasury official puts it more neatly, notwithstanding the 'bounce back' that followed the vaccination programmes and the decline of Covid as a crisis- thus the three takeaways are-
"

the greatest fall in annual GDP in over 100 years;
the greatest increase in government borrowing in over 50 years; and
the risk of exceptionally high unemployment but a risk that, fortunately never crystalised."

Covid and the UK Economy - Speech by Clare Lombardelli, Chief Economic Advisor, HM Treasury - GOV.UK ( (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/covid-and-the-uk-economy-speech-by-clare-lombardelli-chief-economic-advisor-hm-treasury)www.gov.uk (http://www.gov.uk))

Note also that because of Brexit, Covid has impacted the UK in different ways -we have a labour shortage rather than higher unemployment, nor is it clear how the decline of the over-50s in the labour market will impact the economy in 10 years time while the costs of supporting Ukraine will also have some impact. I guess this makes a definitive assessment of 'Covid Economics' hard to come by, but the key for me is that Masks and Lockdowns generally were essential, my view on schools is not secure.

But also the Tone of Govt/State announcements was important, with my view that the indifference to public health on the part of Trump and De Santis was though shocking, no surprise, as in effect, they really don't care about people on any level at any time. After all, in Florida and Texas they more or less give away battlefield weapons to any lunatic who wants them to murder Americans -men, women and children.

[blackchubby38]

The aim of the Telegraph revelations, in advance or as a substitute for the conclusions of the UK's offiicial enquiry, is to sway individual opinion -not so much against Johnson and Hancock -two lost causes anyway- but the key policy areas of Lockdown and Mask Mandates.

So I was rather hoping for your personal opinion on Masks and Lockdown strategies, not least because the experience of New York was different from, say, Florida. That said, you are under no obligation to tell anyone what your views are.

From my perspective, I supported both the Lockdowns/Social Distancing, and the Mask Mandates. That I was in a vulnerable position early on in the pandemic but have only tested positive once, post-vaccination, underlines my belief in the regulations.

Full disclosure, I missed it the first time that you asked for my opinion. When I finally saw it, I wanted to give it some thought on how I was going to answer the question because I have an idea how some people are going respond to what I have to say. So, I will just say this once and be done with it.

I understand why the plans were being implemented and, in the beginning, I supported them. That said, I think the lockdown strategy has done considerable damage to society in general. Here in NYC, because of inept leadership on both the city and state level, things were made worse than they needed to be.

In addition, NYC was on lockdown a lot longer than it needed to be and there are times that I think this city will never truly recover from them.

Remote learning also went on far longer than it should have. We have only recently come to terms with the negative impact that the lockdowns had not only, on a student's education. But their mental and physical well-being, as well as in certain cases their social development.


When it comes to the mask mandates. I begrudgingly supported them and always wore a mask when I went into a store or when I was on public transportation. Although I know probably caught Covid last March when I forgot to put one on when I was in the subway. But I never wore one when I was out in public.

Also, to give you a perspective on where we are at when it comes to masks in this city. This how much things have changed since 2020.

Mayor Adams to New York City Shoppers: Drop That Mask

http://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/06/nyregion/eric-adams-theft-masks-nyc.html

There is actually a jewelry store in my neighborhood with a “No masks allowed” sign in the window.

[filghy2]

The difficulty in assessing the economic impacts is that it's hard to distinguish two different questions:
(i) What was the economic impact of lockdowns?
(ii) What was the economic impact of the pandemic?

Lockdown sceptics often imply that all the economic impacts were caused by lockdowns, but this assumes the economy would otherwise have continued as normal. If there had been no restrictions, and death rates were higher as a result, would people have continued to behave as normal?

We should also be wary of 20:20 hindsight. It's too easy to say that we must have overreacted because the more pessimistic scenarios did not eventuate. The problem is that we did not know this at the time because we knew little about the virus. We had no idea how long it would take to develop vaccines, or even whether this would be possible. if we had waited for more data before acting, and the pessimistic scenarios proved to be correct, it would have been to late to prevent them.

We don't know what the future will bring, but it's likely there will be more pandemics and some of them will be more deadly than this one. If the lesson we draw from this episode is that we should not act preemptively to limit the spread of infection that will likely turn out to be a mistake.

[Stavros]

Full disclosure, I missed it the first time that you asked for my opinion. When I finally saw it, I wanted to give it some thought on how I was going to answer the question because I have an idea how some people are going respond to what I have to say. So, I will just say this once and be done with it.


I appreciate your candid views, and with the post from filghy2 I think the intriguing questions revolve around the differences between the impact of the lockdowns and the impact of the pandemic -one is specific, and has been damaging, in the UK at any rate, but where the economic profile has been complicated by the impact of Brexit making it hard to disentangle one from the other.

The longer term impact it seems to me relates to global supply chains, and a determination to re-locate production away from China in order to secure supply, a form of economic nationalism that might suit the 'America First' brigade and those still yearning for Brexit success in the UK, but which seems to me to have limited potential. That a lot of this is also hostility to China is also not hard to see, and it may be that China comes off worst out of all this, a) because the domestic health profile remains unstable, and b) because over the long term it may cease to be the 'workshop of the world'.

The key issue for me is the relationship between public health and public culture. Your post indicates the gap that exists between people who are used to acting on their own and do not need, or want prompting let alone rules from Govt, be it City, State or Federal; and those who are used to being obedient, or compliant, because they trust Govt. On this basis, the stark difference between Sweden and South Korea is an object lesson, though to be fair South Korea had experience with an epidemic and was this in a better place to respond, though the responses were so different, and both countries have a high level of spending on health.
This article offers an interesting comparison-
A world of no lockdowns: The case of South Korea and Sweden (ideasforindia.in) (https://www.ideasforindia.in/topics/macroeconomics/a-world-of-no-lockdowns-the-case-of-south-korea-and-sweden.html)

Also, because I understand you work in the health sector, I am going to assume you were/are more sensitive to the immediate environment you work in, and can join the dots when it comes to the epidemiology of Covid and the most effective ways to stop it. Masks are crucial, and in the first phase, social distancing was crucial, it is just a 'no brainer' -an airborne virus that attacks the lungs thrives in urban settings and places where humans congregate. How to respond? Don't give it access.

Thus in essence I think we are dealing with the science vs politics questions, with the Telegraph and others now asking if in fact the science was so secure that it justified lockdowns and social distancing as rules imposed by the Govt, or if compliance was better secured through individual choice -on the basis people are not going to be reckless- and had the lockdowns not been imposed, would the rate of infection and death have increased?

On this last point, the Telegraph is in the happy position of not having to prove the argument, because it cannot, but it can hammer home the 'Govt is bad' argument on the basis of the staggering costs to the UK.

On this basis, I think it is a problem if you have what you call 'inept' govt, and it is aggravated if people either don't trust the legislators, or disagree with the severity of the rules they imposes. The problem is we cannot know if the lockdowns were as damaging as is being claimed, because the assumption is that the level of infection and death would not have been higher, that in fact cases tended to cluster, for example among the elderly in care homes, rather than among schoolchildren. But the epidemiological argument concerned carriers who could be the young, so on the basis of what was known in 2020 I don't see that there was much of an alternative. But I tend to support collectivist responses, and I think they were effective.

Science is not bullshit, the politics was. When I was in Germany over Christmas/New Year 2021-2022, you could not enter any public building without a Covid Pass (ie proof of vaccination)- and in some venues, a test was required before entry, but testing stations available nearby to do this. Again, in Germany last summer and last Christmas/New Year, when I was also in Vienna, masks are still mandatory on public transport, but because of the effectiveness of vaccines, all other restrictions lifted. And the point is that the people comply, they obey, and they do so because they can see that it works. But it seems to me that these sorts of barrier methods would drive a Texan to pull out a gun or some equivalent verbal response, but that is politics in command, not science, and obviously the US suffered from having an idiot in the White House who neither understood the science, nor supported it.

You might say I am being obstinate in refusing to believe that it wouldn't have been so bad without masks and lockdowns, but I don't see that at all. The economy was always going to suffer, this was the most serious public health crisis in 100 years, you can't deal with something of that magnitude without a contraction of economic activity. But did the regulations go on too long? Again, I don't think so, because I think the key was getting the vaccine, and then ensuring the population got it. Again, this is science in command: understanding what the virus is, how it works, and stopping it. Once you have that, the cascade of vaccinations liberated the people.

The science of Covid has been a triumph -delineating its DNA, understanding how the virus works, creating a vaccine to control it, to prevent it killing people: this is what has mattered most. The politics has been dismal, whether it is the ineptitude of legislators, or the shocking disinformation in the media none of which was anchored in science. The consequences have been harsh, but that is what happens in a pandemic. It changes things. Whether New York has changed because of Covid, or Covid exposed other changes taking place is not something I can judge.

I do sympathise with your frustration at the management of it, but it was always going to be a rough ride -but we came through, we beat it, and it was a collective effort. And it was the kiss of death for Trump, and that was the icing on the otherwise inedible cake.

I hope people have learned to trust the science, and if handled properly, trust the politicians too when they are properly informed and make the right decisions, though this appears to be the weak link as failures in delivery across a range of social and economic issues erodes trust in Govt, but that is a different debate.

[Stavros]

More arguments in favour of the wet market in Wuhan as the source of the Covid virus, via 'racoon dogs'--to read the full article you may have to sign in, so here are some extracts-

"One of the most compelling clues to the origins of the Covid-19 pandemic was uploaded without announcement to a scientific database, going unnoticed for weeks.And then, just as suddenly, it vanished from public view.
The genetic data, from swabs taken at the Huanan seafood market in Wuhan, China (https://www.theguardian.com/world/china), in the weeks after Covid-19 first emerged, were available online just long enough for a Parisian scientist to stumble upon them while working from her couch on a Saturday afternoon earlier this month.
“I have a bad work-life balance,” says Florence Débarre, an evolutionary biologist whose accidental discovery of the files led to confirmation for the first time (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/17/covid-19-origins-raccoon-dogs-wuhan-market-data) that animals susceptible to the coronavirus were present at the Wuhan market.

They were thousands of raw genetic sequences from swabs that Chinese scientists had taken in early 2020, from the floors, cages, walls and surfaces of the Wuhan market where the first cases of the virus were detected.
A pre-print analysis (https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1370392/v1) of the same swabs, released by the Chinese Centre for Disease Control and Prevention (CCDC) in February 2022 claimed they had included human DNA and coronavirus traces, but showed no evidence of the kinds of animals most likely to have been vectors for the virus.
Their findings supported arguments made by some Chinese officials that the Wuhan market was merely a site where the virus spread among humans, rather than the cradle where it made its first fateful leap from animals to people. But when Débarre and her colleagues analysed the same data, they received another result. “It was the Latin name for raccoon dog, multiple times,” she says. “It was one of the greatest emotions of my life.”


Raccoon dogs, omnivorous east Asian cousins of the fox, are highly susceptible to coronavirus infections and shed the virus in sufficient quantities to infect animals and humans around them. In other words: a suspect was confirmed to have been present at the scene.
Débarre stresses that other animal DNA was also found in the swabs, and that there is still no conclusive proof that raccoon dogs in the market were carrying the virus, or were the vehicle for its first spillover into humankind. “But now it cannot be denied that they were there,” she says."
‘Being truthful is essential’: scientist who stumbled upon Wuhan Covid data speaks out | Coronavirus | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/28/being-truthful-is-essential-scientist-who-stumbled-upon-wuhan-covid-data-speaks-out)

[Stavros]

The official Enquiry into the Covid Pandemic and now it was managed in the UK has opened in London. The hearings are expected to last until 2026 with a report published either in that year or in 2027. A basic outline of the Enquiry is here-

UK Covid-19 Inquiry (covid19.public-inquiry.uk) (https://covid19.public-inquiry.uk/)

So far, former Prime Minister David Cameron, and former Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne, have been giving evidence, in effect to argue their case that the evident lack of preparedness for a Corona Virus outbreak was explained by a bias toward a different form of epidemic, namely of Influenza, the subject of a Public Health England trial called Exercise Cygnus, in October 2016. Both men deny that their policies of 'Economic Austerity' contributed to the UK's lack of preparedness in 2020 because of budget cuts to the NHS and the failure to fund the Contingency Planning that had been recommended by Exercise Cygnus.

What was not better known before this week, was that while Exercise Cygnus was held in October 2016, in February of that year, another trial by Public Health England, Exercise Alice, was mounted to assess the preparedness of the UK for a MERS-Corona Virus outbreak -in other words, a Corona-type viral outbreak not so far from the Covid outbreak that actually happened.

You can read about Exercise Alice here-
Exercise Alice: the UK government tested the response to a coronavirus, but why are we only discovering this now? - The BMJ (https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/10/11/exercise-alice-the-uk-government-did-test-the-response-to-a-coronavirus-but-why-are-we-only-discovering-this-now/)

All of the ingredients for the mismanagement of the Covid virus were in place in January 2020 -the budget cuts to the NHS, the absence of the contingency planning that meant, for example, a lack of PPE when the need was urgent; and intellectually, a disbelief that the UK would be subject to the kind of viral attacks that were associated with either the Middle East, or Asia.

Or: It can't happen here. Until it does.

[filghy2]

This reminds me of Donald Rumsfeld's famous statement about known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns.

A contingency plan that deals only with known knowns is of limited usefulness. Unfortunately, politicians never learn this lesson. The irony of Rumsfeld's insight is that he ignored it in relation to Iraq.

[Stavros]

It is more about the practicalities -if there are contingency plans, they need to be funded, there needs to be a shadow organization in place ready to step into the light when there is an emergency. The simple facts are that a) the Cameron/Osborne economic strategy did not commit to giving money to 'hypotheticals'; and b) even when the first Covid cases were reported in China, the assumption was that this was merely another Asian problem we would not have to deal with. As soon as those first cases emerged in Northern Italy and the State of Washington in the US, alarm bells should have been ringing.

Austerity and Arrogance: two knowns.

[Stavros]

Trump is at it again: re-writing history.

He claims that 'smart people' -he needs them to buttress his own credentials- but hasn't told us who they are- have praised his decision-making on Covid that saved "100 Million lives worldwide"....and then claims that the Great Influenza Pandemic of 1918 began in 1917 and was the reason the First World War ended...!

Evidently his 'smart people' are that ignorant, as the first recorded case was in, wait for it, Kansas in March 1918, by which time the Russian Empire had given way to the Bolsheviks who withdrew from the War and signed a peace with the German Empire at Brest-Litovsk, the same month as that case in Kansas. Did that and the failure of Germany's spring campaign in 1918 -the Kaiserschlacht - bring an and to the War, and was it the involvement of the US in that phase of the war that proved decisive? If you want an answer, best not to ask Donald, or his 'Smart Friends'.

Trump's wise decision making on Covid followed his combined determination that there was nothing to worry about, with his full frontal attacks on the first states to be affected -Washington, New York and Michigan -when he should have been supporting them as his duty as President required. Praise? Not really.

Senile? I don't think so. Permanently stupid? Sure.

As for Ms Kelly, was she advised to show some leg to make sure Trump did not get upset and Storm out of the interview?

Trump and DeSantis Trade Blows Over COVID-19 Response (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-desantis-trade-blows-over-172854024.html)

[filghy2]

De Santis seems to be going all out for the anti-vaxxer vote, warning against Covid boosters for people under 65.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/09/21/desantis-delivered-covid-booster-warning-as-florida-led-the-nation-in-hospitalizations-00117284

This has implications beyond Covid. We are probably going to get a resurgence of preventable diseases because an increasing portion of the population is believing scare stories about vaccines.
https://www.politico.com/tag/the-rise-of-the-anti-vaccine-movement

[Fitzcarraldo]

Make America great again; bring back polio!

[Stavros]

On the one hand, the most serious, and challenging public health crisis in 100 years, on the other hand an ignorant, dangerous fool who presided over thousands of deaths (see YouTube link below).

"MSNBC’s Mehdi Hasan played Fauci footage of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) telling supporters last year that “someone needs to grab that little elf and chuck him across the Potomac.”"
Anthony Fauci Exposes Ugly Reality Behind Ron DeSantis' Dangerous Attacks (yahoo.com) (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/anthony-fauci-exposes-ugly-reality-074717738.html)

The truth about DeSantis’ awful record on covid - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj0s_TTArYo)

[broncofan]

I got the original pfizer series back in 2021 and kept my boosters up to date. Last September I got the Moderna updated bivalent booster that had additional protection against omicron but still contained mrna for the original spike.

Today I'm getting Moderna's 2023 monovalent booster that is supposed to provide protection against the most recent variants. I did not choose pfizer over moderna or vice versa in any case and the decision was often made based on availability.

The vaccines have continued to provide very good protection against severe disease and mortality (markedly if you compare to someone with no exposure to sars-cov-2, which must be exceedingly rare). I have not had any major side effects and am just saddened there has been so much misinformation about the vaccines and about the original death toll. I remember in 2020 when we had 3,000 deaths a day in the US and now we have right-wing commentators who say it was like the common cold. Their followers say they always knew it was a hoax.

Anyhow, I'll let everyone know whether the side effects are mild, moderate, or bad. Usually I get a sore arm, a little dizziness about 12 hours after, and an intermittent headache for a day or two.

I haven't looked at the latest infection fatality rates or rates of long covid but obviously while the pandemic part may be over, covid continues to cause significant illness as an infectious disease. The last I read it is still more deadly than flu, though not markedly so, and much depends on a person's vaccination and infection history. Long covid is very debilitating for a lot of people, causes a host of fairly major life consequences for those who have it, and the treatments are by individual symptom, and not especially effective.

[Vladimir Putin]

As of today I have been vaccinated against RSV.

Two-weeks ago I got the updated Covid-19 vaccine. Two weeks before that, I was vaccinated against pneumonia and two weeks before that, the flu.

[broncofan]

Two weeks before that, I was vaccinated against pneumonia and two weeks before that, the flu.
I am getting flu shot in November. I had what was probably the flu (but not covid since I tested) in the week before my covid shot. I didn't feel like getting flu shot at the same time even though I did last time. I think I will be getting flu shot pretty soon though. Good luck to you!

Edit: I forgot that I said I'd say what my side effects were. Minimal. Sore arm, but that was it this time.

[Stavros]

Had my Covid booster this lunchtime, Flu jab next week. Have also been offered a Shingles jab which I shall accept as I had an attack a few years ago. I hope people reading this will get their shots.

[Stavros]

The public enquiry into the Govt's management of the Covid Pandemic is not revealing many surprises, though it is probably torture for the officials having to admit they bungled it. It will be interesting, when it can be done, to compare the views of the medical professionals with the politicians. Meanwhile, leaked WhatsApp messages and those shown at the Enquiry expose the shambles at the heart of Government, this one from the Cabinet Secretary a concise condemnation of the idiot we had as Prime Minister (first seen in the Live reports in The Guardian). You may need to open the image in a new tab to read it.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9sW-eLXQAADUfR?format=jpg&name=large

Rachel Wearmouth on X: "A WhatsApps between Cabinet Secretary Simon Case & Boris Johnson's ex-adviser Dominic Cummings, & other messages between Case and former comms chief Lee Cain Suggests govt was in chaos during Covid https://t.co/mpJhEvICy5" / X (twitter.com) (https://twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1718993836712645060)

[Stavros]

The Live reports from the Covid Enquiry are compelling to read. This morning we learn that Downing St was told a lockdown was essential but did not announce it for 10 days. We learn Boris Johnson was useless at making decisions and went on holiday for 2 weeks in mid-February, and some of this is important because those who write for the Telegraph and The Spectator and other 'Conservative' type outlets, are focusing on the argument there was no need for lockdowns, given that their attempts to prove vaccinations either don't work or cause more harm has no scope or truthfulness.

Reports are here-
(1) No 10 staff realised full lockdown was necessary 10 days before it was announced, inquiry hears – UK politics live (theguardian.com) (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2023/oct/31/covid-inquiry-lee-cain-dominic-cummings-government-whatsapp-uk-politics-latest)

[rodinuk]

I find it gobsmacking that the main news channels are covering it live without a bleeper for the explicit language spoken from transcripts of the WhatsApp messages.

[Stavros]

I find it gobsmacking that the main news channels are covering it live without a bleeper for the explicit language spoken from transcripts of the WhatsApp messages.

Channel 4 News bleeped out the offending words, and not only were they offensive, it is worth noting that having referred to a woman working in the Downing St operation as a C***, Cummings then shrugged his shoulders to say he said worse things about the men. And for good reason too I think. But when I worked for a well known multi-national there was an ethical code, and the kind of language used in No 10 would have got people sacked where I worked, and anyway, I would not use that kind of language at any time, and there were times of tension.

The saddest thing, is that I don't think many people are surprised at the crudity, the dysfunctional department, the petty vindictiveness, the ego wars, just how out of touch with real people these exalted nobodies were. And where are they now?

[Stavros]

A useful summary of yesterday's trip through the 'orgy of narcissism' that was Boris Johnson's Downing St...

Eight shocking revelations from Cummings and Cain at the Covid inquiry | Covid inquiry | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/31/eight-shocking-revelations-from-cummings-and-cain-at-the-covid-inquiry)

I wonder what we would learn if we had the same documentation from the Trump White House re Covid -?

[Stavros]

Another grim day in the Covid Enquiry, where we learn not that the Prime Minister and his Cabinet have, in Michael Gove's words 'had enough of experts', but that they didn't understand what they were saying anyway. Boris Johnson cannot understand elementary graphs, Rishi Sunak claims the experts did not warn him his 'Eat Out to Help Out' would spread Covid rather than restrict it, and allegedly on the victims 'let them die'. Even when you factor in the inexperience with a major public health incident like Covid, the inability or unwillingness of Politicians to make tough decisions is fundamental to what went wrong, their press conferences at times just a pack of lies, just as they banned people from gathering together while they partied hard.

How Patrick Vallance’s explosive diaries exposed Covid chaos inside No 10 | Patrick Vallance | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/20/how-patrick-vallance-explosive-diaries-exposed-covid-chaos-inside-no-10)

[Vladimir Putin]

Have also been offered a Shingles jab which I shall accept as I had an attack a few years ago.

I had my two shingles shots in 2020 right before and after the start of the Covid-19 pandemic.

[Stavros]

Let us hope this ignorance is not contagious...

"The World Health Organization (https://www.theguardian.com/world/world-health-organization) has accused Nigel Farage of spreading misinformation after he launched a campaign to block an international treaty designed to improve global pandemic preparedness.WHO member states are negotiating a deal to shore up cooperation against new pathogens. If adopted, the legally binding treaty would commit countries to helping each other in the event of a pandemic, increase research and sharing of data, and promote fair access to vaccines.

But populist figures including Farage and a number of Tory MPs are lobbying the UK government to block the deal, claiming that it will give the WHO power to enforce lockdowns on countries, dictate policy on mask wearing and control vaccine stocks."
WHO accuses Nigel Farage of spreading misinformation about pandemic treaty | Nigel Farage | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/16/who-accuses-nigel-farage-of-spreading-misinformation-about-pandemic-treaty)