I Had A Feeling This Would Happen...

[MrFanti]

https://caldronpool.com/female-athletes-take-a-stand-after-transgender-athletes-dominate-track-event-were-facing-the-end-of-womens-sports/amp/?fbclid=IwAR2kpSQeXivU70U0T0IOhJeRbV9KjJyPQ3-RaZIN1-pFHRRlUic-WjtkcjQ

[blackchubby38]

I think its time for the governing bodies of the respective high school sports league to adopt the same rules that NCAA has when it comes to transgendered athletes. Instead of putting the onus the genetic girl athletes that feel they're at a disadvantage. This issue isn't going away and I would be worried given the last line in the article:

"ADF has since set up a petition to encourage the Trump Administration and Members of Congress to safeguard the athletic and academic futures of young women".

[Murmdrum]

I think its time for the governing bodies of the respective high school sports league to adopt the same rules that NCAA has when it comes to transgendered athletes. Instead of putting the onus the genetic girl athletes that feel they're at a disadvantage. This issue isn't going away and I would be worried given the last line in the article:

"ADF has since set up a petition to encourage the Trump Administration and Members of Congress to safeguard the athletic and academic futures of young women".


genetic girls are at a disadvantage tho...so this is always going to be a slippery slope when discussing it

[MrFanti]

The biggest areas of concern and debate might be volleyball and basketball - since men are taller than women. Add to it that no amount of hormone therapy makes up for natural height differences.

[kfortune]

genetic girls are at a disadvantage tho...so this is always going to be a slippery slope when discussing it

The question is really one of motivation. A genetically male athlete who is noncompetitive in male sport who decides to declare themselves transitioning or identifying as or whatever and then cleans up in what ever sport is just a wanker who is fucking over people for their own glory (of which there is none, because they've basically cheated).

This is the real problem. And in the high profile high school-level athletics examples of this here in the US, all indications are that that's what happened.

Genetic women, as a "general rule", are going to lose to genetic men. The Australian national women's football (soccer) team was defeated by a team of 15 year old school boys. It's simple physiology.

So it is a thorny issue. If we are going to have a society where a person can just declare their gender identity and society just accepts it then we are going to have a society where people take advantage.

[scroller]

https://caldronpool.com/female-athletes-take-a-stand-after-transgender-athletes-dominate-track-event-were-facing-the-end-of-womens-sports/amp/?fbclid=IwAR2kpSQeXivU70U0T0IOhJeRbV9KjJyPQ3-RaZIN1-pFHRRlUic-WjtkcjQ

Do keep in mind that the Alliance Defending Freedom mentioned in that article is considered to be a hate group (per Southern Poverty Law Center), who are documented as lobbying for recriminalization of homosexual behavior, forced sterilization of trans people, etc.

(https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/alliance-defending-freedom)https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/alliance-defending-freedom

They also happen to be the largest recipient of funding from the National Christian Foundation charity:

https://www.newsweek.com/biggest-christian-charity-funding-hate-groups-1370055

[filghy2]

That's also true of the Caldron Pool site - if you go to the home page you can see other anti-transsexual stories, along with lot's of other right-wing propaganda. There are certainly agendas to beware of here.

These reports always seem to be trying to create the impression that female sports are in danger of being taken over by transgender athletes, but is that actually true? I can't see much evidence of it from the professional female sports that I see reported in the media. Or is it that there are different standards at professional and amateur levels?

[blackchubby38]

That's also true of the Caldron Pool site - if you go to the home page you can see other anti-transsexual stories, along with lot's of other right-wing propaganda. There are certainly agendas to beware of here.

These reports always seem to be trying to create the impression that female sports are in danger of being taken over by transgender athletes, but is that actually true? I can't see much evidence of it from the professional female sports that I see reported in the media. Or is it that there are different standards at professional and amateur levels?

I noticed that about the Caldron Pool site. So I disregarded a majority of what I saw on there.

Having said that, when it comes to this particular issue, I'm willing to pay it some credence. There are different standards at the professional and amateur level. So I don't think you're going to see transgendered women taking over the WNBA.

But when it comes to high school level, these stories seem to be popping up with some frequency. That's why I think its time to address it now before it becomes a bigger issue for the wrong reasons.

[MrFanti]

Do keep in mind that the Alliance Defending Freedom mentioned in that article is considered to be a hate group (per Southern Poverty Law Center), who are documented as lobbying for recriminalization of homosexual behavior, forced sterilization of trans people, etc.

(https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/alliance-defending-freedom)https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/alliance-defending-freedom

They also happen to be the largest recipient of funding from the National Christian Foundation charity:

https://www.newsweek.com/biggest-christian-charity-funding-hate-groups-1370055

Understood completely.
But the natural height differences with regards to volleyball and basketball are tough nuggets to argue against - regardless of whom one is arguing against :-(

[MrFanti]

Addendum,
I have an athlete friend of mine who is transitioning from FTM....He hasn't seen much resistance with the exception of public restroom issues....

[steviedresses]

I am pro-trans. If someone is born into the wrong body and they need to transition than I support them 100 %.

But, genetic males, should never be allowed to compete with genetic females. Men are 40% muscle, women are 30% muscle. Men have larger bone structures, and greater lung capacity. I am not being sexist. These are just facts.

Now are there some women who can compete with the men? Absolutely. But overall the average male has greater strength and endurance than the average female.

When I was in high school I ran a 12 minute two mile and was just an average runner. If I was female and running that time, I'm competing at State and getting scholarship offers.

So a MTF athlete still has the underlying male physiology and no amount of hormones is going to change it. I'm sorry MTF athletes, but you have to compete with the boys.

On a similar thought, what if a FTM wrestler wanted to compete with the girls? Talk about an unfair advantage.

[filghy2]

So a MTF athlete still has the underlying male physiology and no amount of hormones is going to change it. I'm sorry MTF athletes, but you have to compete with the boys.

I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure it's feasible for them to compete with boys in most sports either. I'm not an expert, but I assume that the effect of taking female hormones is to reduce strength. There are also the psychological difficulties of competing in an environment that may be fairly hostile. Many sports have struggled with accepting players who are openly gay - and transsexuals don't have the option of keeping their status secret.

I don't really have a satisfactory solution to the dilemma. Maybe there needs to be separate transgender competitions, but those are likely to be quite limited for the foreseeable future. It may be an unfortunate reality that transgender athletes cannot pursue a sporting career.

[steviedresses]

It may be an unfortunate reality that transgender athletes cannot pursue a sporting career.

Yes Filghy2, they do not get to compete. It is sad but true. Aside from the obvious social problems, MTF athletes will just have too big of an advantage over GGs.

I watched the IAAF world championships last week. They had a wonderful 'mixed' 4 x 400 relay. Two men, two women. All the teams ran MWWM, except for the Japanese. They ran WMMW.

The race was an eye opener at just how much faster the men are than the women. These ladies are running 50-51 second 400 meters. The guys are running 45 seconds.

If you can find it on-line watch it. Japan is way behind after the first 400 because a lady is running against the men. Then Japan's men run the next two 400's... and get a BIG lead. So the 4th Japanese runner starts with a 20 meter lead (or something like that) and the men run her down on the back straight. Japan finishes dead last.

Japan would have finished dead last anyway running MWWM. But the race was eye-opening about how much faster the men are.

And mind you this lady is a world class 400 meter runner.

[blackchubby38]

I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure it's feasible for them to compete with boys in most sports either. I'm not an expert, but I assume that the effect of taking female hormones is to reduce strength. There are also the psychological difficulties of competing in an environment that may be fairly hostile. Many sports have struggled with accepting players who are openly gay - and transsexuals don't have the option of keeping their status secret.

I don't really have a satisfactory solution to the dilemma. Maybe there needs to be separate transgender competitions, but those are likely to be quite limited for the foreseeable future. It may be an unfortunate reality that transgender athletes cannot pursue a sporting career.

We have had this discussion before. So I'm going to bring back a post that I made when the discussion was the FTM transgendered wrestler Mack Beggs.

When this story was first posted, I wanted to wait a couple of days to gather my thoughts about it. Its one of those stories that is going to cause a reaction no matter what side of the aisle a person sits on and I think its one of those situations where nuance is needed.

First, should the University Interscholastic League adopt a new rule that allows transgendered people to compete against the gender that isn't listed on their birth certificate?- Yes. I think they should come up with something similar to the NCAA's rules:

"trans male (FTM) student-athlete who has received a medical exception for treatment with testosterone for diagnosed Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for purposes of NCAA competition may compete on a men’s team, but is no longer eligible to compete on a women’s team without changing that team status to a mixed team".

"trans female (MTF) student-athlete being treated with testosterone suppression medication for Gender Identity Disorder or gender dysphoria and/or Transsexualism, for the purposes of NCAA competition may continue to compete on a men’s team but may not compete on a women’s team without changing it to a mixed team status until completing one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment".

This way you're being fair to the transgendered person and you're preserving the the integrity of women’s sports.


Second, I think it is fair to question whether or not Mack has an unfair advantage over his female opponents due to the testosterone injections he is receiving. It would be interesting to see what his record was before he started transitioning. From the two articles that I read, I haven't seen it mentioned.

Third, I think you can have empathy for Mack's situation. But at same time, think it isn't right that he is competing against female wrestlers. Especially when you consider that he is going to get the chance to compete against other boys on the national level. A decision that was reached last year. So its also fair to wonder if he should have competed in this year's state tournament.

Finally, I'm all for people following their dreams. I also understand that starting the transitioning process is an important step in a transgendered person's life. But sometimes in life people have prioritize what's most important to them. So I think its fair to ask whether Mack should have either waited to begin transitioning until he was done competing at the high school level or stopped competing altogether while he was doing so.

[MrFanti]

News from the USA Powerlifting Organization
https://www.newsweek.com/usa-powerlifting-ban-transgender-women-competing-1316259

USA POWERLIFTING ORGANIZATION BANS TRANSGENDER WOMEN FROM COMPETING

Looks like 100% of the debate is about Transwomen and not Transmen.....