The Mike Pence Thread

[Stavros]

Lord, we know what we are, but know not what we may be

Mike Pence, the Christian Vice-President of the USA, said something the other week that has bothered me enough to start this thread, and I am sure there may be others that excite comment, now and in the future.

Specifically, Mr Pence offered his penny's worth of opinion on the grim case of Charlie Gard, an 11-month baby in London suffering from Mitochondrial DNA Depletion Syndrome, a horrible condition which causes the body's cells and organs to shut down and induces epilepsy, as well as deafness and possibly brain damage. Charlie has been on life support and the legal questions concerned whether or not his life support should be shut down, or whether or not there are indeed medical procedures that offer hope of life. The High Court in London decided that there was no hope, after rejecting a late claim by a US based neurologist Michio Hirano that his proposed treatment offered a less than 10% chance of working, not even having been tested yet on laboratory mice. That Hirano had not offered his help for six months during which the case was live, and stood to gain financially from his proposed method merely underlines how dubious some of the external interventions were.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/26/charlie-gard-health-service-nhs-failure

Pence entered the debate along with the Pope and the US President all of whom subscribe to the claim (utterly bogus in the case of the USA) that every life is precious and who offerered all sorts of promises and claims which made no difference to the case.

This is what Pence said:
The heartbreaking story of the 11-month-old Charlie Gard in England is a story of single-payer. I know you’ve covered that on this program. And it’s back in court today and frankly we breathe a prayer and the hope that the single-payer system in England will see its way clear to allow the family – the mother and the father – to be able to choose the greatest extent of life-saving treatment that’s available to their child.
Under single payer people are submitted to a government program that says, “no, we’re going to remove life support from your precious 11-month-old child” because the government has decided that the prospects of their life are such that they no longer warrant an investment in health services.

We hope and pray that little Charlie Gard gets every chance, but the American people ought to reflect on the fact that for all the talk on the left about single-payer, that’s where it takes us.
http://www.lifenews.com/2017/07/10/vice-president-mike-pence-we-hope-and-pray-that-little-charlie-gard-gets-every-chance/

One wonders where Mr Pence gets his information from, as the decisions made about Charlie Gard's medical treatment were made by the medical staff at Great Ormond St Children's Hospital, not the government. The State only became involved through the Courts as the legal system was asked to decide who has the right to decide the fate of a patient when, as in this case, the patient is both too young and unable to speak for himself. It has nothing to with the government, and also nothing to do with the investment in health services, but the clinical judgement GOSH made that there was nothing more medically that could be done to hep Charlie Gard's condition. The legal conflict existed between the parents of Charlie Gard and the medical professionals.

It is also a nonsense to refer to the NHS as if it were the sole preserve of 'the left' when the NHS in the UK is similar to health services in Sweden, Norway, France and Germany and in all cases has been preserved and promoted by governments of all kinds from left, right and centre.

Pence offered his opinion probably more as part of the determination to take health care away from Americans, than to comment on the NHS in the UK. Just yesterday he joined with other Republicans and indeed, Senator John McCain to re-open the debate on American health care, taking away insurance cover for sufferers of cancer, the very illness that McCain has recently been treated for -because he can afford it. Rather than criticise 'single payer' health care, one wonders what Pence has to say to his fellow Americans who can't pay for health care when cancer strikes.

Presumably they are left to die, possibly because there isn't a Christian around who cares enough to help those less fortunate than themselves...

[sukumvit boy]

Heartbreaking for Baby Charlie Gard and his family and shameful for Mike Pence and those who would stoop so low as to use them as a political / ideological football .
In light of updated tests and clinical findings the family have decided to remove life support and move Baby Charlie to hospice care , he is expected to expire by Friday.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/charlie-gard-mitochondrial-disease-suffers-legal-battle/

[filghy2]

This is not surprising, given pretty much everything Trump and the Republican leadership have said about Obamacare repeal has been blatant lies https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/27/16035644/republicans-obamacare-repeal-lying

[sukumvit boy]

Excellent Vox article ,filghty2.
Indeed , the Republican drive to repeal and replace Obamacare has exposed a system in deep trouble . A chief executive who tells us he sits in the Oval Office ," pen in hand" , ready to sign legislation which he makes no attempt to explain or support and House and Senate Republicans ready to pass a bill which they neither understand nor support ;which will create life and death policy affecting millions of Americans.
"Things fall apart;the centre cannot hold ..."
I think Stavros started this thread, with prescient focus on Mike Pence, knowing that he could well have called it "The President Mike Pence Thread". Since that is certainly where we are headed.
10204791020480

[Stavros]

The VOX article was indeed a scorching judgemet, but I think Ezra Klein missed the trick that McCain pulled. He voted to continue the process knowing that in procedural terms if it was voted down after subsequent debates and votes, it would be killed -thus he took one step back to enable the process to meet its end, knowing he would have the power to kill it. You will have to decide if this is his revenge for the insults and abuse that Trump dished out to him over the last year, although so far the President has attacked Lisa Murkowski while her Republican partner in the Senate, Dan Sullivan claims Ryan Zinke, Interior Secretary has threatened to punish Alaska for her vote with the implication that Federal permission for drilling rights or other energy related policies will not be given.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/27/16049172/trump-zinke-alaska-obamacare-repeal

I don't know about Mike Pence's future, but it is there for all to predict. What I find 'intriguing' is the man's public declarations of his Christian faith, and some of the peculiarities this brings to his behaviour -such as not being alone in a room with a woman who is not his wife or relative. You might think that is the opposite of what we assume about his boss, but it is eerily not so far from those Muslims or Orthodox Jews who are also reluctant to place themselves in close proximity to women, be it in rooms, aeroplanes, buses or even streets. Yet does this say more about his fear of his own -uncontrollable?- desire than it does about women?

He also strikes me as being very dull, which might be an asset after the relentless publicity mania of the President and his new Press wallah becomes too much, even for Republicans.

[Stavros]

Hmmm, not sure how I managed to post that twice. In the meantime we learn that senior members of the Administration attend Bible Study sessions led by Ralph Drollinger of Capitol Ministries-

Regular attendees include Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, Energy Secretary Rick Perry, Agriculture Secretary Sunny Perdue, CIA Director Mike Pompeo and Attorney General Jeff Sessions.

Mike Pence is a regular when he has time, but this priceless remark by Drollinger had me laughing over my breakfast this morning-

Mr Drollinger heaped praise on Vice President Mike Pence who is known for his profoundly conservative views on marriage equality and LGBT rights and record of supporting the widely discredited practice of gay conversion therapy.

"Mike Pence has respect for the office. He dresses right - like it says Joseph cleaned himself up before he went to stand before the Pharaoh," he said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-cabinet-members-bible-study-meetings-white-house-christianity-government-a7871556.html

[flabbybody]

I'm forever amazed at how GOP officials who advocate the most vile policies against the poor and underprivileged seem odsessesed with publicly displaying their Christianity. I am an agnostic but I hope they're right about the existence of eternal hell, a place they're surely headed. Of course agnostics won't fare any better but at least we're not hypocrites.
As for Pence, his ideology almost makes Trump's look humane. But I accept him as less disgusting to look at every day so I pray that Trump will be forced out of office prematurely.

[Budweiser]

Very glad that a rock like Mike Pence is one heartbeat away from the presidency, rather than a loony bird like Tim Kaine.

[trish]

Yeah. Pence would be like a rock of crack cocaine. We'd grow even more paranoid, women's rights would die on the vine, being transgendered in the 'wrong' rest room would be regarded as a criminal transgression against the 'Christian foundations of the nation,' and the separation of Church and State would go down the toilet. What would suffer most are the heart, liver and kidneys of our democracy. Remember kids, don't do Pence. It's just like Trump, only better focused.

[Stavros]

And Mike Pence is a Republican, whereas...

Trump is a Democrat working undercover.He's not just any Dem, though. He's a bitterly scheming, conniving one who will go to any lengths, even sacrificing his own dignity, to bring the Republican establishment down.
Pay no attention to that June tweet in which he called Democrats (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/politics-government/democratic-party-ORGOV0000005-topic.html) "obstructionists." Ignore that picture he tweeted in March of Senate (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/politics-government/government/u.s.-senate-ORGOV0000134-topic.html) Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/politics-government/government/chuck-schumer-PEPLT007418-topic.html) with Russian President Vladimir Putin (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/politics-government/government/heads-of-state/vladimir-putin-PEPLT007593-topic.html) from 2003, calling the Democrat a "total hypocrite" and demanding an investigation.
Those were just distractions. Trump's real target is the Republican Party (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/politics-government/republican-party-ORGOV0000004-topic.html). House Speaker Paul Ryan (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/politics-government/government/paul-ryan-PEPLT005726-topic.html) and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/politics-government/government/mitch-mcconnell-PEPLT004312-topic.html) are at the top of his hit list. And they have plenty of reasons to be scared.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/glanton/ct-trump-undercover-democrat-dahleen-glanton-met-20170906-column.html

[Stavros]

Well would you Adam and Eve it? $800 Million????

The video tape, made public just a month before the 2016 election, showed Mr Trump using lewd and sexually aggressive language to brag about groping and trying to have sex with women, saying “when you’re a star, they let you do it”.

Its release caused dissent among senior Republicans with a number withdrawing their endorsements and calls for Mr Trump to stand down as the party's candidate, fearing it would severely harm their chances of electoral success.

It was at this point that Mr Pence reportedly plotted a coup against his running mate, going to the Republican National Committee (RNC) chairman Reince Priebus and offering to stand in Mr Trump's place as the presidential nominee.
As a deeply religious man, Mr Pence was said to be "beside himself" over Mr Trump's comments on the tape.
Mr Pence's wife Karen was even more disgusted and called Mr Trump "reprehensible - just totally vile", the US magazine the Atlantic reported.

More here-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/05/vice-president-mike-pence-plotted-coup-run-president-condoleezza/

[Stavros]

Mike Pence had planned to visit 'the Holy Land' before Christmas, but the President chose to formally recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and the hostility this created has forced Pence to postpone the visit until the New Year, if even that goes ahead.

I have been trying to work out what kind of Christian Mike Pence is, having been born into an Irish Catholic family but in recent years becoming close to 'evangelical' Christians. It is one of those puzzling aspects of Christianity when, particularly in the USA, its believers appear to support conservative policies that surely are not Christian -one would expect a Christian to support community funded health care and education, rather than leave it to market forces, while the mere existence of so many poor and homeless people in the USA makes one wonder if there are any Christians there at all.

If there is one thing I note, it is the extent to which many of these 'Evangelical Christians' appear to me to have replaced the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels, with an ideology of liberation in which the signal components are recognising Jesus as the Son of God who will return to Earth to cleanse it of its sins, and usher in an eternity of happiness, sending un-believers and sinners into an eternity of damnation. From this discourse one gets the need for personal spiritual change, which is fine, but change that has little to do with the daily problems of poverty and homelessness, and more to do with the 'preparations' for the Second Coming. Conservative policies on abortion, opposition to same-sex relations as well as marriage, and an even stranger attachment to the 'nation' (something Jesus would surely not accept) do not enable these Christians to demonstrate their faith through positive and humble acts, but in opposition to something they see threatening their narrative.

Thus Pence as a Congressman and then Governor of Idaho constantly attacked LGBTQ rights, constantly fought to have the fetus recognized as a person from the moment of conception, and argued that 'liberal' policies on abortion and marriage were threatening the very foundation of the USA in terms of 'God, Family and Country'.
http://religionandpolitics.org/2016/10/10/the-christian-worldview-of-mike-pence/

But again and again, one comes across this near obsession with the End of Time, the 'tribulations', the identification of Jerusalem or more vaguely 'Israel' as the place where it will all happen, and, crucially, that unhappiness will be replace by happiness, sin with purity, the temporary life with life eternal. it is also most peculiar that Evangelical Christians sometimes call themselves 'Christian Zionists' yet believe the Jews whom they support as Israelis, must convert to Christianity or be damned -one is even tempted to say, be consigned to the fires of hell if they do not, having made the mistake of not recognizing Jesus when they could have 2,000 years ago. Some holocaust that might be. Does it mean Pence is just a Nazi with a smile on his face? A bit harsh, but surely he too must believe it is a mistake to be a Jew?

I can understand key components of Christianity in the promise of the Resurrection and the Life to Come, but I do wonder if this fixation on the end of time enables some Christians to cross over to the other side of the road when they see a homeless person, because this is just a temporary problem that need not concern them.

And to me that is not Christianity in action.
https://www.newsmax.com/fastfeatures/evangelical-christians-beliefs/2015/04/02/id/636050/

[buttslinger]

My fuzzy memory ain't what it used to be, But I seem to recall that Pence was a last minute move by Kushner, Trump was leaning towards Chris "fatso" Christie. Trump had been making those ridiculous claims that his #1 Book was the Bible, but his knowledge was #2, as in Two Corinthians. I'm sure the Trump kids thought Pence was a good 180 degrees balancer of Pop's pussygrabbing, and all.
I think the thing about Evangelicals and Pro-Lifers is it's like the best Insurance Policy on keeping the FAMILY together. Blind Faith. It's got nothing to do with Jesus or God.
If you ever go to a troubled youth support group and mention that your friends always let you down in the end, your family is all you can really depend on, you'll get a lot of blank stares.
This site is probably as good an example as any of what scares Evangelicals the most! Know-It-All Liberals, So you see, it's your fault, luring those kids to the big cities for unholy sex and methedrine.
Pence won't say when he found out about Flynn, and if he goes down with the ship, rank and file Republicans are looking at collusion with the most disgraceful administration maybe ever. Like the Book of Revelations!!! Maybe that explains some of the odd turnabout behavior that seems to be going on with the Republicans. Circle the Wagons! I think there are signs this could be big. With that crew they had in the White House and during the Campaign, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict the worse that could happen did happen. Pence will have to take his damning oath on the Bible, that's what you get for mixing politics with religion. Like Game of Thrones. Repent!

[Stavros]

Aha! America you were fooled -his name is Pounce, not Pence!
If I were you, I would take out a liable action and sue his ars. God Bless Eureka!

[Stavros]

I have been very rude toward Pence, but yesterday he did the right thing, risking much from the ranks of Trump supporters, so on this occasion I have nothing bad to say about him.

It was a point of interest that he was not seen at the White House when the 45th President left for Andrews Air Base, and wasn't there either for the 'farewell' (or 'See ya later!) speech.

But he and his wife did have the elementary courtesy to attend the Inauguration -Pence having dealt with Kamala Harris with the decency the transition deserves- was welcomed because of it, and part of the ritual which sees the senior members of the Senate and the House and the incoming couple stand on the steps of the Capital while the VP exits to a waiting limousine.

The question now is whether Pence thinks he can rescue the Republican Party from the kind of people who wanted to hang him -or so they said- or look at the wreckage and decide a quiet life in Idaho is more tempting. I assume he will write a book, though I am not sure what he has to say.

[Stavros]

Nurse! Come quickly!

"Former President Donald Trump (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/donald-trump) issued a rambling, incoherent statement on Tuesday that was filled with nonsense about the 2020 election, the January 6 committee, and a demand for the panel to investigate Mike Pence (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/mike-pence), his vice president of four years."
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-now-calling-pence-investigated-145645878.html

[yodajazz]

Sounds like he is losing his mind. He only seems to believe his own 'logic', and none other.  That is the negative effect of surrounding yourself with yes people. But he said in 2016, that the only way he could lose was by fraud. Positive thinking, yes, but underneath it all, it is irrational.

[filghy2]

The problem is not Trump believing this nonsense. The problem is 60% of Republican voters also believing it, and Republican politicians who probably don't believe it choosing to pander to them.

[Stavros]

So, yesterday was Mike Pence day, Team Normal, the Hero who Saved America....only the man wasn't there. Why not? Is Pence a coward?

Two links, Pence as coward, and the preposterous idea there was a Team Trump and a Team Normal...

Pence the ‘hero’ who foiled Trump’s plot – could it lead to a 2024 run? | Mike Pence | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/17/mike-pence-trump-plot-january-6-hearing)

The January 6 hearings aren’t acknowledging the elephant in the room | Thomas Zimmer | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/17/the-january-6-hearings-arent-acknowledging-the-elephant-in-the-room)

[KnightHawk 2.0]

So, yesterday was Mike Pence day, Team Normal, the Hero who Saved America....only the man wasn't there. Why not? Is Pence a coward?

Two links, Pence as coward, and the preposterous idea there was a Team Trump and a Team Normal...

Pence the ‘hero’ who foiled Trump’s plot – could it lead to a 2024 run? | Mike Pence | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/17/mike-pence-trump-plot-january-6-hearing)

The January 6 hearings aren’t acknowledging the elephant in the room | Thomas Zimmer | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/17/the-january-6-hearings-arent-acknowledging-the-elephant-in-the-room)Even though he stood up too Donald-D.A.M.N-Trump on Wednesday January 6th 2021,and did his job by certifying the results of the 2020 Presidental Election,Mike Pence is a still a coward because he should've said something months earlier.

[filghy2]

Pence's conduct reminds me of Churchill's famous comment about Americans: he did the right thing in the end, but only after exhausting all the other possibilities.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/06/21/mike-pence-hero-00041003

One of the many disheartening aspects of this whole thing is that so many of the Republicans who have been willing to call out Trump's behaviour still say they would vote for him if he was the nominee in 2024. Even though they have been subject to personal abuse from Trump, threats to end their careers and harassment from his supporters.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/06/rusty-bowers-and-republican-trump-2024-conundrum/661352/

You really have to wonder at the cognitive dissonance involved in this. These people obviously recognise that Trump has egregiously violated ethical and constitutional standards, yet are willing to give him free rein to do the same again.

[Stavros]

Pence's conduct reminds me of Churchill's famous comment about Americans: he did the right thing in the end, but only after exhausting all the other possibilities.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/06/21/mike-pence-hero-00041003

One of the many disheartening aspects of this whole thing is that so many of the Republicans who have been willing to call out Trump's behaviour still say they would vote for him if he was the nominee in 2024. Even though they have been subject to personal abuse from Trump, threats to end their careers and harassment from his supporters.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/06/rusty-bowers-and-republican-trump-2024-conundrum/661352/

You really have to wonder at the cognitive dissonance involved in this. These people obviously recognise that Trump has egregiously violated ethical and constitutional standards, yet are willing to give him free rein to do the same again.

I agree, and can only assume that there is no cognitive dissonance, but cowardice on the part of men like Pence who don't think Black people are fit for public office, who think Mexicans are great if they are legal, and gardeners; and that women have had it all since 1970 but now its time to remind them they only exist to cook, clean and breed. The American obsession with God and Prayer remains something that endures because it allows White so-called Christians to identify with the Pioneers they tell you built their country. I assume their message to the Taliban dealing with an earthquake would be 'Pray to God, for God answers your prayers'.

On the other hand, the hearings and the other incidences you mention expose how detached these people are from the values that are embedded in the Constitution, given that their loyalty to one man as their ruler, a 'Monarch' if you please, undoes the purpose of the American Revolution. But again, some of the more extreme people reject 1776 and think the time has come for a new Revolution that will create the America they want, not what the majority want. It also reflects the breakdown of policy making, as the emphasis now is not on the Debt, or Housing, or the management of the USA's water resources and soil -critical though these are in the South-West- but the replacement of policy making with slogans about Guns, Family and Race, in the form of an hostility to CRT based on the view that it promotes 'hatred', a bit rich coming from people who have lived their lives on it.

I am still perplexed at a country where the 2nd Amendment can refer to 'a well organized militia' and think this means every individual has the right to walk around with battlefield weapons. The Democrats seem unable to present an articulate vision for their country based on positive views of what the future holds, just on guns they are terrified of doing the right thing. The country is in the grip of a megalomaniac who spends all his time looking backwards at something bad that happened to him, and the men and women you refer to seem to be just as obsessed, just as hopeless, which is the one word that sums up the country right now.

Track back and you may agree on the basis of Tucker Carlson, Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell, that the Watergate burglary would be presented as an 'inside job' of the 'Deep State', the attacks on Nixon a 'witch-hunt' 'the like of which has never been seen in history', and Vietnam a glorious victory. Even Churchill's bombast never sank into a swamp of lies like this crowd.

[Stavros]

"Of the meeting in November 2020, the former vice-president writes: “In the end, that day the president made the fateful decision to put Giuliani and [attorney] Sidney Powell in charge of the legal strategy … The seeds were being sown for a tragic day in January.”
"By openly blaming Trump for events leading to the January 6 insurrection, when a pro-Trump mob attacked the US Capitol in an attempt to overturn Joe Biden’s election victory, Pence risks angering Republicans he must court as he considers the next nomination for president."
Pence blames Trump for events leading to January 6 in new memoir | Politics books | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/oct/31/mike-pence-memoir-trump-giuliani-january-6)

No surprises at the title of his book: So Help Me God. He's going to need more than that.