Cliven Bundy

[Turlington]

Any opinions on the subject? Personally I think he's wrong.

[trish]

He's a subsidized, whining asshole who imagines he's entitled to freeload on everybody else's dime and threaten violence should they object. I say we hire Joni Ernst to castrate the pig.

[fred41]

Did a somewhat cursory reading on this (maybe two articles ) because I haven't heard of him before this, but...well...Trish already said it all. I really don't see his argument.
No matter what anyone's beliefs are on land use...it seems to have gone through the courts and he lost....and he doesn't own the land.
again...he doesn't own the land.
So fuck him.

[Dino Velvet]

Basically a 10 minute filler for cable news TV so America can chase its own tail in 2 argumentative directions. At times it has looked like a proxy war between Sean Hannity and Harry Reid.

I care about Al, King Kong Bundy, and Bundy Drive more than Cliven Bundy. Cliven looks like an old guy who's willing to martyr himself after the doctor gave him 6 months to live. That's one herd I'd avoid joining.

I don't know jack shit about the specifics though. Just ego flinging poo disguised as opinion.

[kittyKaiti]

Shortened version of what actually happened:

*1887: Cliven Bundy's ancestors settle in what is now modern day Clark County, Nevada. His great grandfather lawfully purchases the rights to the land now know today as Bundy Ranch. This property would be lawfully passed on to the later descendants.

*1946: The United States implements the Bureau of Land Management

*1990: The endangered desert tortoise is declared protected. The BLM attempts to force ranchers in the region to give up land and abide by new rules so ensure the survival of the desert tortoise.

*1993: The Bundy family refuses to accept new BLM regulations and ceases paying the BLM for assistance services.

*1990's: The BLM attempts on multiple occasions to sue the Bundy's and force them to pay fines and fees for disregarding BLM policies. Bundy refuses to obey the court orders and the BLM, claiming his ranch is private property.

*2008: The BLM considers the selling and leasing of federal lands to corporations for oil shale fracking use. These tar sands areas include the Bundy Ranch region.

*2013: The endangered desert tortoise, which the BLM in the region provided services to help keep alive, became the victim of mass slaughtering by the BLM. The BLM suffered a blow to its budget and proceeded to euthanize desert tortoises.

*2014: The BLM decides to attempt to seize the Bundy Ranch, claiming "to collect debts owed by the Bundy's and to protect the desert tortoise".

*April: The BLM, including over 200 federal agents and rangers, accompanied by helicopters, snipers and construction vehicles, all armed with assault weapons surround the Bundy Ranch and shut down nearby roads. Cliven Bundy says he will not comply with unconstitutional federal aggression.

The aggressive and deadly show of force used by the BLM forced Bundy to refer to the incident as "a range war". Protesters responded following disturbing photos appearing on the internet of BLM snipers taking aim on Bundy family members and their home. Protesters began to show up. In response the BLM set up a "first amendment zone" for protesters to use and say within. The protesters disregarded that zone citing the 1st Amendment applies to the entire country and all its lands. BLM rangers were aggressive against protesters.

On April 10th the protesters and Bundy family alleged the BLM was seizing Bundy cattle, killing them and burying them in the desert. Protest groups attempted to block a BLM convoy from passing through to inspect construction vehicles, including a dump truck, possibly used to illegally slaughter animals. During the confrontation, BLM rangers battered a cancer patient and a pregnant woman and tasered one of Bundy's sons.

Immediately after this, the Oath Keepers patriot organization declared a call to arms of support for Cliven Bundy, claiming the events are mimicking those of Waco and Ruby Ridge.

On April 12th, armed militiamen from across the United States began to arrive in support of Cliven Bundy and the peaceful protesters. Over the next couple of days, tensions between protesters and the BLM rangers would increase. Eventually the Bundy's gave the BLM an ultimatum to return cattle they seized or the protesters and militiamen would enter the BLM compound and retrieve the cattle themselves. The BLM surrendered a half hour later and allowed cowboys on horseback to round up the seized cattle and guide them out and back to Bundy Ranch.

*Since: The Bundy family and assisting militiamen have began to view the damage left over by the BLM. The BLM destroyed water ways, roads, fencing, water towers and utilities. They have also located mass graves of shot cattle.

*April 19: The BLM begins harassing Texan ranchers on the Oklahoma border. Despite these rancher presenting deeds to their property, the BLM is threatening forceful eviction. The ride never ends.

tl;dr? I support Cliven Bundy, the protesters and the militiamen. I wish I still lived out in Vegas and could have been there to support those heroes. It's about damn time the People stood against the tyrants in power.

[Turlington]

I'll just leave this picture here and add this...

Further context: The land is federal land, has been since 1848. By his own admission his “ancestral claim” only goes back to 1887. So when his ancestors started grazing their cattle on that land, it had already been federal land for 29 years.

[Turlington]

I forgot to add this. If he doesn't acknowledge the US Government as even existing...

[kittyKaiti]

The Constitution authorizes the federal government, not the other way around. And despite what the Nevada State Constitution may say, our Founding Fathers surely would side with Bundy and would be horrified to see the condition this country is in.

Bundy's stand is not only about his cows. This is about the overreaching authority the United States federal government is giving itself at the expense of the people. And as long as the United States federal government disregards our Constitutional rights and human freedoms, the authority and the validity of the current standing federal system is easily debatable.

From the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. ... when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

[trish]

*1848 The Federal Government acquired the Nevada Territory in the treaty that ended the Mexican-American War. The early settlers were homesteaders. In 1909 the homesteading act was expanded to encourage more people to settle there. Still the Federal Government owns about 80% of the state of Nevada.

*The BLM never euthanized endangered tortoises.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04...false-f/198860

http://ecowatch.com/2014/04/15/blm-b...t-bundy-ranch/

*Bundy never owned the grazing land that is in dispute.

"Bundy's dispute with the government began about 1993 when the bureau changed grazing rules for the 600,000-acre Gold Butte area to protect an endangered desert tortoise, KLAS reported."___from http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/us/nev...ttle-showdown/

*This dispute is not a State's rights issue, since the land is on a National Park.

*He had his day in court and he had his appeals. His arguments were found wanting in all venues. As you can see, only the loopiest of the loopy see any merit to his incessant whine. Everyone else in the state pays to graze their cattle in the park. Why does Bundy deserve a special subsidy? Why does his cattle get to graze there for absolutely free for two decades? Because he's a pig? Because he brought in and organized some thugs with guns? It's certainly not because he has a legal right, nor a Constitutional right, nor is the state of Nevada claiming any State Rights on his behalf.

[broncofan]

The federal constitution does indeed create the rights of the federal government to act. My understanding is that these are federal government lands he's been using. Federal courts have interpreted it as such. The job of federal courts is to interpret the federal constitution and federal laws. The supremacy clause says that federal law trumps state law where they conflict. He is really no different from any other crazed militia man who claims he doesn't recognize the sovereign within which he lives. That doesn't mean he's not subject to its laws.

Again, it's not you or some jackoff with guns whose interpretation of the constitution matters. If everyone were free to declare acts of government unconstitutional at their whim we wouldn't have much of a government. The federal courts have ruled on the issue and he's lost. And if it turns into a legitimate gunfight, he'll lose that too.