Revoking Transgender Civil Rights

[Stavros]

[QUOTE=Nick Danger;1858576]
The banks to whom the USA owes money always get paid. That's how we are able to maintain trillions of dollars in debt - because everyone knows they will get paid. This national debt that people get so twisty about is no different than an average person using an American Express card. It's not a problem as long as you pay it off. I myself have a ridiculously high credit limit, but the reason my credit limit is so high is because I can be trusted to pay it off. I could go out right now and get myself in a lot of trouble with credit cards. But I don't; that's why I'm entrusted to have that option.

--Or, to put it another way: if banks fail, the losers -their customers- will bail them out, and give the bankers even more money than they had before. You might want to ask how it was that the Crash of 2008 even happened, and why it is that in the same period since 1850 there have been hundreds of bank failures in the US but none in Canada, but I guess you regard a banking failure is little different from a weather forecast that claims the day will be warm and sunny that turns cold, with rain. Most of all, it is your indifference to the incompetence of US banks that stands out.

People throw numbers around as if they can actually wrap their head around the numbers. "TRILLIONS" of dollars in debt!! Okay, well, that sounds like a lot until you consider that there are hundreds of millions of people here - the richest people in the world - working in hundreds of multi-billion-dollar industries, generating TRILLIONS of dollars ANNUALLY. Yes, we have a national American Express card. And we're using it. So what?

--So what, indeed. When the next crash along because of your addiction to debt, and you lose your house, your car and your cocker spaniel, will you shrug your shoulders and say, so what?

Liberal mouthpieces can go on and on about how they created a strong economy and now the conservatives are taking credit, but it's no more true now than it has been every other time they've said it - during every Republican administration in history. The American economy is fast and loose, week-to-week, day-to-day. During a Democratic regime it clenches up like a virgin asshole, during a Republican regime, it shits gold. Nothing Obama did is relevant to the current state of the economy. Obama is now a public speaker. And a damn good one at that.
--Like your silly claim that Obama increased the USA's military engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan, which I demonstrated to be garbage, you ignore the fact that when Ronald Reagan left office the USA had the highest deficit in its history; that when Bill Clinton left office, the USA had cleared its debt and there was a budget surplus. This was followed by another Republican Presidency that transformed the surplus into a deficit of such gigantic proportions it hangs over your head like a safe held from the ceiling by an ever fraying wire. Dick Cheney said 'deficits don't matter', yet Paul Ryan was so concerned he created a 'debt clock' to monitor the debt when Obama was President as if it were his fault -and quietly removed the same 'debt clock' when his successor came into office in case it embarrassed both of them. I daresay that in general the two parties have a mixed record -Eisenhower was probably the meanest President in recent times, -in fact the last real example of a fiscal conservative- but at a time when the US economy was in far better shape than it is now.

We are currently riding on pure economic optimism. Which is just fine considering that in a fiat economy, all the money is imaginary anyway. Economic optimism has a real dollar value now.
--This statement contradicts the statements that preceded it.

Whatever shenanigans Trump is up to, it's working. Period. Results count. Results are all that count. Deep inside, even the most tattooed, nipple-pierced, tree-hugging victim-lover knows this. And that's why you better be ready for 4 more years of Trumpism before your outrage over special interests is addressed.
--We have been here before, the sun is shining, the kids are on the beach, your job is secure, you have a lovely wife and Rover is snoozing on the porch. What could possibly go wrong? Nothing, until it goes wrong. And all those analysts and economists warning you that there is a cliff edge ahead, who listens to them these days anyway?

As for those irritating Transgendered Americans, do you not think they deserve to know why the rights they had have been taken away? You are keen to defend the administration of the 45th President, yet appear to disregard the rights of your equals as if they were not rights at all, but some sort of political popcorn that daddy takes away because they have had enough.

The secret was there the moment the 45th President put a portrait of the 7th President in a prominent place in the Oval Office, his way of pissing on all those Americas he resents for treating him like a third-rate tv host and failed businessman. He even made sure that when Chiefs of the Navajo Nation were 'honoured' in the White House he made them stand under the portrait of a man so assiduous in his slaughter of First Nations he became known as 'the Indian Killer'. The 45th President using the 7th to piss in the face of people so much better than him.

When Democrats were targeted this month by a fanatical supporter who posted pipe bombs intended to inkure or kill, the 45th President had an opportunity to show empathy with the potential victims, to rise above party politics to defend the rights of his equals -he did no such thing, but laughed along with his supporters when at a rally they barked at a victim of terrorism, 'Lock Her Up!' to underline the gulf between decency and shame that this President has done so much to widen.

It is a shame you don't show more empathy with those Americans who have been told they will no longer exist, because they ask you to call them Michelle rather than Michael, because in what may be desperate moments, they seek love rather than hate. Is it really too much to ask that your fellow Americans enjoy the same rights that you do? That you agree to endorse the view that every American is equal, one in relation to the other? I don't think so.

[Nick Danger]

It is a shame you don't show more empathy with those Americans who have been told they will no longer exist, because they ask you to call them Michelle rather than Michael

Hyperbole, Stavros. No one is X'ing anyone out of existence. The transgender in your example will always exist. But if certain people have their way, for the time being she will have to exist legally as "Michael" based on her birth gender. This will have no effect whatsoever on her activities that don't involve banking, insurance, or going to jail.

This problem is the fault of liberals. It's certainly possible that by now we could be having a legitimate national conversation about introducing additional gender-identifiers for transgenders, if liberals hadn't already scared the hell out of everyone by insisting there are...IIRC, 63 is the largest number of possible genders I have heard put out there seriously by liberals. Unfortunately for these self-appointed gender police, for 7,000 years of recorded history up to the current date, there have only ever been two genders. That simple and undeniable fact won't stop liberals from blustering their half-considered dogma at anyone who accidentally comes within earshot.

To top it all off, the LGBT community had the audacity to confront the entire country with a list of entirely new, stupid-sounding pronouns and then DEMAND that we use them.

Not sure who's in charge of LGBT PR, but whoever it is is a mouth-breathing idiot.

The proletariat's response to all this has basically been, first, laughter, and then, a solid decision to ignore these political midgets.

Now me, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am pro-rights. For everyone, but particularly for transgenders because I love them. IMO, we need 7 gender identifiers: Male, Female, MtF post-op and pre-op, FtM post-op and pre-op, and "Other." That covers all the bases, no hurt feelings, everyone gets to exist.

With a little bit of perspective and a slightly more conservative approach to getting what they want, the liberals COULD have been well on top of the gender issue by now. Instead they have been arrogant, made fools of themselves, and made a mockery of our political system. People notice that kind of shit. Trump is more backlash to that arrogance than anything else.

When the next crash along because of your addiction to debt, and you lose your house, your car and your cocker spaniel, will you shrug your shoulders and say, so what?

Probably will, Stavros. Unlike many people, I am a responsible citizen, and a responsible consumer. I've lived through LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, Bush Jr., Obama, and Trump. I keep my shit wired tight. I have money saved and invested. I own things, including my own business. I protect myself from economic downturns. My view of this current bull economy is, it's a time to expand my interests, diversify, advance my position. If a crash happens, I'm ready. The 2008 crash wasn't even a blip on my personal radar, it was somebody else's problem. I came out of it better than I went in. All it really meant to me was, bad time to sell my house, which is not something I was looking to do anyway.

I wasn't born in this position. I attained it via hard work and smart choices. If other people are set up for a big fall, well, I feel bad for them. Truly I do. But I can't live their lives for them, I can only live my own.

Like your silly claim that Obama increased the USA's military engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan

It's not a silly claim, Stavros, it happens to be a fact that before he finally did reduce the number of American troops in Afghanistan to a token amount, he INCREASED the number of American troops in Afghanistan from 30,000 to over 100,000.

Here's a handy article for you, complete with a giant penis-shaped graph which shows us getting a real hard-on over there between 2009 and 2012:

https://www.npr.org/2016/07/06/48497...ed-under-obama

And here's another handy article showing the increase in Iraq:

http://time.com/4298318/iraq-us-troo...ma-mosul-isis/

I guess this could all be fake news though, Stavros. You tell me.

That you agree to endorse the view that every American is equal, one in relation to the other?

Every American is not equal, Stavros. Some are better than others. Stronger. Smarter. Equality of opportunity does not equal equality of outcome. Every American has equality of opportunity. Every American, regardless of race, religion, economic level, or gender, can choose to study hard, work hard, follow the law, pick a smart career path, live responsibly, and prosper. But not every American chooses to do that. So not every American gets to live the American Dream.

Those people who have made poor choices get angry. Life is hard when you're irresponsible. Then you have what we have now - the modern Democratic Party, the biggest group of victims in American history.

[natina]

Intersexed is a 3rd gender.

Man goes to hospital, discovers he's a woman When Steve Crecelius got an ultrasound at a Denver hospital (what was he being treated for?) he got some surprising results: It turned out that he is intersex, or possessing both gender's anatomical sex traits. Crecelius, who now goes by Stevie and identifies as a woman, says he wants to share his story in hopes of inspiring other intersex people to be comfortable with their gender identity (is Crecelius married?).
.

http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/E9/41D992...B0B6C1ADFF.jpg


http://specials.msn.com/a-list/healt...-popular-pages

[filghy2]

Hyperbole, Stavros.

This problem is the fault of liberals. It's certainly possible that by now we could be having a legitimate national conversation about introducing additional gender-identifiers for transgenders, if liberals hadn't already scared the hell out of everyone by insisting there are...IIRC, 63 is the largest number of possible genders I have heard put out there seriously by liberals. Unfortunately for these self-appointed gender police, for 7,000 years of recorded history up to the current date, there have only ever been two genders. That simple and undeniable fact won't stop liberals from blustering their half-considered dogma at anyone who accidentally comes within earshot.

Hyperbole, Nick. Nice demonstration of the art of reductio ad absurdum, but where are any of these things in the legal/regulatory measures that the Trump administration is reversing? I'm sure if you'd been alive 60 years ago you would have claimed that racial violence in the south was the fault of liberals pushing for equality and ignoring thousands of years of history in which lesser races had been subjugated.

Rather than hijacking this thread, how about you and Stavros start up you own - The Bullshit Artist vs The Professor or something like that?

[Stavros]

[QUOTE=Nick Danger;1858654]
This problem is the fault of liberals. It's certainly possible that by now we could be having a legitimate national conversation about introducing additional gender-identifiers for transgenders, if liberals hadn't already scared the hell out of everyone by insisting there are...IIRC, 63 is the largest number of possible genders I have heard put out there seriously by liberals. Unfortunately for these self-appointed gender police, for 7,000 years of recorded history up to the current date, there have only ever been two genders. That simple and undeniable fact won't stop liberals from blustering their half-considered dogma at anyone who accidentally comes within earshot.
To top it all off, the LGBT community had the audacity to confront the entire country with a list of entirely new, stupid-sounding pronouns and then DEMAND that we use them.

--Why is the fault of Liberals and not the fault of Conservatives who refuse to see what is right in front of them?
Are you serious when you claim Americans are scared by the reality that some of their equals don't want to be identified as being only Male or Female? Scared? Be scared of nuclear war, but don't be scared of a small minority of Americans who have the right to self-identify, and if not scared, be worried that the Federal and State authorities insist on telling you who you are, regardless of the reality.

-Recorded history alone reveals that there has not always been a fixed attachment to two binary genders: Plato in The Symposium refers to the Greek belief that originally there was only one gender before that was separated into two; the Berdache of North America, the Mahu of Hawaii, the Xanith and Mukhannath of Arabia, the 'Eunuchs' of China and others in India and Africa all testify to the awareness in societies across the world and time that we are not and never ever been locked into either Male or Female identities and behaviour

-Fundamental to this is not the outrage at 'Liberals' or the 'Democrats'. Think about it: the Democratic Party is the party of America that looks like America where the Republican Party merely looks like a segment of America. This has not always worked well for the party -it cost them in the period between 1968-1992 but has been their primary constituency since then, and bear in mind Hillary Clinton did win the popular vote in 2016 and that in a sense, the Democratic Party is 'the natural party of government' because it has a broader representation of the American people than the GOP.

-Fundamental to this, then, is the real fear: the fear by the White, Christian Nationalists that they are losing control of 'their country' to an assortment of rainbow people -many of whom, but not all- don't believe in their God, have no emotional attachment to Jamestown or Fort Sumter, but do to Gettysberg and Selma. The fight against Transgender Rights is not just about Rights, it is about identity and the belief that 'it has all gone wrong since the 1960s' but wrapped up in that is not just the issue of identity rights, but the broader fear that has simmered since 1865, that Black people are demanding to be equal -why do you think that in the Carolinas, Alabama and Tennessee and now as far north as Ohio, it is Black Americans who are being thrown off the electoral register and denied the Right to vote? Transgendered Americans are a small minority of the overall population, but have become the easy target extreme conservatives are using to roll back 50 years of Civil Rights that made the USA a better place for all.

It's not a silly claim, Stavros, it happens to be a fact that before he finally did reduce the number of American troops in Afghanistan to a token amount, he INCREASED the number of American troops in Afghanistan from 30,000 to over 100,000.
--My point was that by the end of his two terms, Obama had reduced the troop presence in Iraq and Afghanistan, as your links prove.

Spare a thought for those young Transgendered Americans who don't have a bank account, who dropped out of High School and may only have basic reading and writing skills, who are not living life as the average Americans and may be emotionally confused and prone to addiction and suicide. So small a segment of the population who can be helped through empathy, through low-cost social programmes, who can be admitted into society through the simple act of acceptance -legal and moral-, and the confirmation that they are not freaks or a threat to 'the American way'. If you are sympathetic, don't just dismiss this present war as a 'blip' that will be corrected in 2020, some of those young Americans might not live that long.

They deserve to be identified as Americans with equal Rights, taking away those Rights is Wrong.

[filghy2]

Fundamental to this is not the outrage at 'Liberals' or the 'Democrats'. Think about it: the Democratic Party is the party of America that looks like America where the Republican Party merely looks like a segment of America. This has not always worked well for the party -it cost them in the period between 1968-1992 but has been their primary constituency since then, and bear in mind Hillary Clinton did win the popular vote in 2016 and that in a sense, the Democratic Party is 'the natural party of government' because it has a broader representation of the American people than the GOP.

In fact, Republicans have received a majority of votes at only one Presidential election since 1988. So it is arguable that if the USA had a fair electoral system none of this would be happening, and nor would we have to put up with Nick Danger's relentlessly smug crowing.

By the way Professor, you missed the Fa'afafine of Samoa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%27afafine

[Ben in LA]

How/why is it different? The impression I get from polls etc is that at least 80% of Republicans these days are full-on Trumpists who don't want to see or hear any evil about him, while most of the rest prefer to keep their heads down because they don't want to side with 'liberals'.

I should've said I'm different on Twitter, compared to my other social media appearances. I positively give zero fucks over there. I've currently restricted for 12 hours from posting/liking/retweeting and such for that attitude. I'm more restrained elsewhere, including here.

[Nick Danger]

Rather than hijacking this thread, how about you and Stavros start up you own - The Bullshit Artist vs The Professor or something like that?

Is that what it's called when someone interrupts your liberal circle-jerk with an actual counter-argument? "Hijacking the thread?" "Relentlessly smug crowing?"

That's why I'm here in your usually comfy butt-patting echo chamber, Flighty - I'm the guy who cares enough to pull you back across the rainbow.

Spare a thought for those young Transgendered Americans who don't have a bank account, who dropped out of High School and may only have basic reading and writing skills, who are not living life as the average Americans and may be emotionally confused and prone to addiction and suicide. So small a segment of the population who can be helped through empathy, through low-cost social programmes, who can be admitted into society through the simple act of acceptance -legal and moral-, and the confirmation that they are not freaks or a threat to 'the American way'. If you are sympathetic, don't just dismiss this present war as a 'blip' that will be corrected in 2020, some of those young Americans might not live that long.

They deserve to be identified as Americans with equal Rights, taking away those Rights is Wrong.

I'm sorry, Stavros, but I just don't feel sorry for people who make poor choices, reap the consequences, then spend the rest of their lives bitching about it.

I won't belabor the point, but there are simply no excuses in the USA. Every resource you need is handed to you - we educate you, teach you right from wrong, and allow you to choose the position that suits you best in our massive juggernaut of an economy.

There's absolutely nothing stopping a transgender from leading a perfectly normal life here...IF that's what they want. But very often it seems that isn't what they want. They want a life on the edge, they want to party while they're young, do all the drugs then drink their breakfast, live in nightclubs and bars, crash on couches, sell sex to survive. Okay, that's an option. But meantime, for every young trans person preparing themselves for disappointment, there are a dozen other young Americans preparing themselves for the real world. And those people who are putting in the work are going to out-live you. And I don't mean they're going to live longer than you, though they probably will. I mean they are going to out-perform you in every area of life, and you'll end up a middle-aged loser facing a long, dark journey to the bitter end.

And I could say that's sad. It actually is sad. But there are 10 million sad stories in the naked city and I don't have time for the ones that end with everything actually being your own damn fault.

[peejaye]

Nick; You can't educate Pork !
Liberals here in the UK do more harm than good, they really are the lowest, most pointless, form of society. If I said on here what I'd like to do with them all, he would get his friend the moderator to ban me again!

[Murmdrum]

In fact, Republicans have received a majority of votes at only one Presidential election since 1988. So it is arguable that if the USA had a fair electoral system none of this would be happening, and nor would we have to put up with Nick Danger's relentlessly smug crowing.

By the way Professor, you missed the Fa'afafine of Samoa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%27afafine

so suddenly the electoral college is unfair after a couple of hundred plus years?