Climate change could mean the extinction of our species

[Ben]

Naomi Klein: CAPITALISM vs. EARTH's CLIMATE:

[trish]

I saw that interview the other night. So what do you think? Is she right?

[Ben]

I saw that interview the other night. So what do you think? Is she right?

To a large extent.
She's right about CEOs locked into a system whereby they must maximize profits for their shareholders.
So, the CEOs of oil companies aren't, as Klein says, evil. Again, they're trapped within an institutional structure.
Sure, climate change could be absolutely catastrophic. But what can an oil or coal company CEO do? They simply don't have a lot of leeway... to address the dangers of climate change.
If he or she doesn't fulfill their actual legal obligation, well, they're out and someone else is in.
Someone like David Korten (http://livingeconomiesforum.org/) has a bleak outlook. He said that the human race is finished. Naomi Klein refuses to go there.
Anyway, I'm bias. Because I like Naomi Klein.
I'm curious to read her book. Which I will -- fairly soon.

[Ben]

[trish]

To a large extent.
She's right about CEOs locked into a system whereby they must maximize profits for their shareholders.
So, the CEOs of oil companies aren't, as Klein says, evil. Again, they're trapped within an institutional structure.
Sure, climate change could be absolutely catastrophic. But what can an oil or coal company CEO do? They simply don't have a lot of leeway... to address the dangers of climate change.
If he or she doesn't fulfill their actual legal obligation, well, they're out and someone else is in.
Someone like David Korten (http://livingeconomiesforum.org/) has a bleak outlook. He said that the human race is finished. Naomi Klein refuses to go there.
Anyway, I'm bias. Because I like Naomi Klein.
I'm curious to read her book. Which I will -- fairly soon.

She also seems to be saying that the only adequate approaches to addressing climate change involve radically rethinking capitalism. Not all of the world's nations are in a position where they can economically afford to curtail their production of greenhouse gasses. She says the rest of the world, for the common good and not that of the stockholder, will have to help these nations get beyond fossil fuel dependency. This will amount to a massive redistribution of the world's wealth.

The right is claiming global warming is just a way to sneak socialism through the backdoor. Of course that isn't the la raison d'être of global warming. Anthropogenic climate change is happening. But, according to Klein, the solution will require that human beings to abandon individualistic libertarianism and adopt economic philosophies more aligned with socialism and communitarianism; i.e. the right's fear of what global warming means for their world-view is in that sense justified.

[trish]

Unless effective solutions can be found that are compatible with rigorous forms of capitalism, I don't believe there's much hope of doing anything of significance before it's too late. Is Naomi Klein doing us a disservice or is she laying out straight?

[Ben]

Unless effective solutions can be found that are compatible with rigorous forms of capitalism, I don't believe there's much hope of doing anything of significance before it's too late. Is Naomi Klein doing us a disservice or is she laying out straight?

I'm hoping to read the book soon.
The solutions to climate change require collective action, which means government. Which, of course, goes against so-called free market capitalism.
But we don't have pure capitalism. Pure capitalism would mean getting rid of child labor laws and minimum wage laws. We do of course have these laws in place.
So, why not put laws in place that regulate the hell outta corporations? Because if the science is correct then we've got to have massive government action... which runs counter to the interests of the Koch brothers and Exxon etc., etc.
It's all a question of whether or not you believe the science. And these guys at all these various Think Tanks know the science is accurate and that's what scares them. Because they then have to reverse course. And demand government action.

[trish]

This week John Stewart explained why we needed a march to raise awareness of global climate change. Big Oil misdirects deniers (and unfortunately the House of Representative's Committee on Science, Space and Technology) the way one might tease a kitten with a laser pointer.

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/8q3nmm/burn-noticed

At least we can die laughing.

[Stavros]

Unless effective solutions can be found that are compatible with rigorous forms of capitalism, I don't believe there's much hope of doing anything of significance before it's too late. Is Naomi Klein doing us a disservice or is she laying out straight?

I think there is a confusing message. Because capitalism is the dominant mode of economic behaviour, I don't see how we can discuss climate change and its remedies without capitalism being part of the debate, yet if you think of climate change and environmental politics in a different context, one of resource management, capitalism is not necessarily the villain. Historically, the buffalo were hunted almost to extinction by the first nations of America, not exactly capitalism in action; neolithic communities may have invented the slash and burn clearances of ancient forest which changed the climate even if it led to the cultivation of crops, including those for sale. The old USSR -described by many on the left as 'state capitalist'- was infamous for its desecration of the environment, notably in parts of Siberia but also in the grim industrial areas west of Moscow.
And these days major multinationals are watched like a hawk by Greenpeace and other environmental groups and go to great lengths to be environmentally responsible -if anything, governments and the military are more likely to damage the environment than commercial enterprises.
That said, in the long term, if humans societies can be persuaded to engage in the kind of resource management that does not lay waste to forests, nutrients in soils, and water resources, and develops alternative energy sources that can be stored in large volume -we may lay the foundations for a cleaner world in say 100-200 years time. In the meantime, the way we live in cities also needs an overhaul, visiting London for a few days last month was a deeply depressing experience -a physically unattractive city, with an expensive, congested transport network, and an atmosphere of claustrophobic dread. There has to be a better way to live.

[Stavros]

So, Ben, are you delighted now the Rockefellers have decided to sell off their shares in the petroleum industry?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...thout-oil.html