Palestine

[Stavros]

It is a pity that you quoted the last lines of Waking Early Sunday Morning. For all Lowell's eloquent depiction of the US in Vietnam, he was a manic depressive and ended his poem in precisely the despair which I have cautioned against. For while the dance of death that characterises Hamas and Israel takes place today, as it did years ago, and may well do again in years to come; this, as ever, is the time to change the paradigm and consider the positive alternatives.

Because it is precisely this despair that drives Hamas to proclaim in opposition to historical fact that 'Islam is the solution'; and enables Israel to refuse to engage with Hamas in order to bring this relentless campaign of violence to an end. In the past, Hamas has offered to recognise Israel and open negotiations, offers rejected by Israel without a second thought, much as they rejected the PLO's overtures prior to the Oslo talks which led, eventually, to the 1993 Peace Treaty, a treaty to which Netanyahu is opposed. And, had there been serious moves forward on the basis of that Treaty, brokered in part by the Clinton administration which then privileged Israel in every subsequent attempt to move forward (one dreads to think of Hillary Clinton as President in this regard), we might not be here today.

Yes Hamas occasioned this bout of slaughter, but its cause has been the Siege of Gaza, and the abject failure of any responsible party, particularly the Special Envoy of the Quartet, to bring this unacceptable violation of human rights to an end. It is the siege that has driven people to support Hamas, give that some thought.

Politics is about compromise, and Hamas has in spite of its inflammatory rhetoric by offering to negotiate with Israel conceded that the 'destruction of Israel' is just that -rhetoric, about as valid as the IRA's commitment to a United Ireland. It is not clear how Hamas would in fact destroy Israel, just as since its victorious election it is not clear now how many Palestinians in Gaza would vote for it again, and why indeed Hamas is assumed to have so much clout when it is not the only political movement in Gaza and it is Mahmoud Abbas and Fateh on behalf of the PLO which negotiates with Israel.

And if you want to privilege the 'destruction of Israel' as the calling card of Hamas, why not include Avigdor Lieberman's view that the Arabs should be thrown out of Israel and the West Bank altogether -alive or dead-?

To correlate Hamas with ISIS is to avoid the subtle differences between an organisation which emerged through the Muslim Brotherhood, and an organisation (ISIS) which regards the MB as pansies who are not serious about creating an Islamic caliphate. And has Hamas acknowledged that Ibrahim is now their Caliph?

Beyond this rhetorical madness and the carnage of war, there are practical solutions which require the people who live in the Middle East to engage. Hard as it might seem right now, history does show that small steps to the future can begin with that single step recommended by the Buddha. But it will require men in positions of responsibilty to show that they are willing to change. Right now, I can't see it, but I cannot give in to despair either.

[Prospero]

http://nyti.ms/1o50Rfr

Arab nations back Israel against Hamas

[Stavros]

Correction: mostly unelected leaders of Arab states, not 'nations' -who do you think the average man and woman in the street supports in Amman, Cairo, Beirut, Abu Dhabi?

[Prospero]

Frankly in Abu Dhabi i don't think they give a shit. While the west wrings its hands the rest o the Arab world has long been good at lip service.

And I suspect that many are more afraid of the sort of ideology Hamas and other Islamist groups represent that any military threat from Israel.

[yosi]

In the past, Hamas has offered to recognise Israel and open negotiations,

sorry my friend , but Hamas NEVER offered to recognise Israel.


Hamas moto is the destruction of the state of Israel.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=KakxXN5Z-XI

[Stavros]

sorry my friend , but Hamas NEVER offered to recognise Israel.


Hamas moto is the destruction of the state of Israel.

Hamas as a political organisation is as open to negotiation and compromise as any other, and it has offered recognition of Israel as one of its components of a deal, most recently earlier this year -

Hamas would consider recognition of Israel, a spokesperson for the terror group said Saturday, as peace efforts teetered over Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas’s recent reconciliation with the organization.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-open-to-considering-recognition-of-israel-official/

And this from 2006-
The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the '67 borders, senior Hamas member Khaled Suleiman said Wednesday.
According to Suleiman, the movement will be ready to accept a Palestinian state inside the '67 borders and will not operate to thwart diplomatic negotiations held by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...249568,00.html

The rhetoric that refers to the 'destruction of Israel' -what in fact does it mean? And how would Hamas or anyone else do it? If you think about it, quite apart from being around the 5th most armed state in the world with one of the most effective military machines, Israel is both a place as well as an idea. In the end, 'we will destroy you' is part and parcel of the rhetoric of politics, which doesn't mean a lot of people could be killed -it has been happening for the last two weeks on both sides- but it does mean that the 'existential' issue takes precedence over practical solutions to practical, rather than ideological solutions, and that suits Israel as well as Hamas. Perhaps the fact is that neither side wants to negotiate if negotiation means 'surrender' of any kind. That is why Netanyahu spoke at demonstrations in which Yitzhak Rabin was depicted as an SS Officer, and has opposed the 'peace process' since it began.

As I have said before, we need a new paradigm. Talk of, and actual destruction is a one-way street to nowhere.

[buttslinger]

..The rhetoric that refers to the 'destruction of Israel' -what in fact does it mean? And how would Hamas or anyone else do it?...

Hey Palestine is shaping it's own defeat no matter what it does, Israel is not going to surrender or move to New York City, the worst think the Palestinians could do is actually harm Israel in a big way, because that would signal a total counter-attack without any concern of fairness or humanity or appearances of any kind. The Israelis have a chip on their shoulder like nobody else could even imagine.

[Stavros]

Hey Palestine is shaping it's own defeat no matter what it does, Israel is not going to surrender or move to New York City, the worst think the Palestinians could do is actually harm Israel in a big way, because that would signal a total counter-attack without any concern of fairness or humanity or appearances of any kind. The Israelis have a chip on their shoulder like nobody else could even imagine.

From 'the destruction of Israel' by people who don't have the means to do it without outside help, to Palestine 'shaping its own defeat' by a state armed by the USA. There have been many own goals in this conflict, the Palestinians are not unique in this.
Why talk of destruction and defeat instead of construction and success -it seems you have given up, and the only people who benefit from that are the same people knocking seven bells out of each other right now. There has to be an alternative.

[notdrunk]

Hamas as a political organisation is as open to negotiation and compromise as any other, and it has offered recognition of Israel as one of its components of a deal, most recently earlier this year -

Hamas would consider recognition of Israel, a spokesperson for the terror group said Saturday, as peace efforts teetered over Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas’s recent reconciliation with the organization.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-open-to-considering-recognition-of-israel-official/

And this from 2006-
The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the '67 borders, senior Hamas member Khaled Suleiman said Wednesday.
According to Suleiman, the movement will be ready to accept a Palestinian state inside the '67 borders and will not operate to thwart diplomatic negotiations held by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...249568,00.html

The rhetoric that refers to the 'destruction of Israel' -what in fact does it mean? And how would Hamas or anyone else do it? If you think about it, quite apart from being around the 5th most armed state in the world with one of the most effective military machines, Israel is both a place as well as an idea. In the end, 'we will destroy you' is part and parcel of the rhetoric of politics, which doesn't mean a lot of people could be killed -it has been happening for the last two weeks on both sides- but it does mean that the 'existential' issue takes precedence over practical solutions to practical, rather than ideological solutions, and that suits Israel as well as Hamas. Perhaps the fact is that neither side wants to negotiate if negotiation means 'surrender' of any kind. That is why Netanyahu spoke at demonstrations in which Yitzhak Rabin was depicted as an SS Officer, and has opposed the 'peace process' since it began.

As I have said before, we need a new paradigm. Talk of, and actual destruction is a one-way street to nowhere.

Actually, the Washington Post corrected their article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...2ad_story.html

Correction: An earlier version of this story incorrectly reported a statement by Taher al-Nunu, a media adviser for Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh, on the possibility of the recognition of Israel by Hamas. Nunu did not directly comment on recognition and said any discussion about recognition would happen in the future as part of Hamas’s efforts to join the PLO and form a government. Nunu said Sunday that Hamas would not in fact recognize Israel. This version has been corrected.

Hamas has been pushing for a ten year truce under certain conditions that are mostly impossible without compromising Israel's security. What happens after ten years? Hamas has clearly stated that they wouldn't recognize Israel even if they went back to the 1967 lines. The conditions are in the following link with analysis:

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/mid...-terms-n157516

The following quote is from the leader of Hamas stating their view on Israel if they went back to the 1967 lines:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24235665/n.../#.U9xlQvldWSo

Mashaal said Hamas would accept a Palestinian state limited to the lands Israel seized in 1967 — that is, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem. But he said the group would never outright formally recognize Israel.

One of the main goals of Hamas is to combine Israel with the West Bank and Gaza Strip forming an Islamic country. Hamas isn't a viable partner for peace.

[TSBootyLondon]

When it comes to politics I lack intelligence or the ability to use big words. I fail in all discussions because I am out of my debt however THIS situation is I will say barbaric.

I have been following on the news this week…

There was an interview on BBC News where a Jewish woman/mother as interviewed. She mentioned that she was frightened because a bomb went off a few miles from her home, she went on to say that she gets to see some images via the news and the internet of what is going on the other side.

When asked did she feel sorrow or sadness for the mothers war torn burying their children who have been killed in a direct explosion on their house and do you know what she scared around the answer! she didn't say 'my heart bleeds with sorrow for that grieving mother!'
I was disgusted! There have been a number of interviews and accounts like this that have horrified me!
Now as I said previously I know nothing about political arguments and wars BUT what I do know is these acts of violence and cruelty are continuing by the day yet we stand back and do nothing! Why aren't we helping!?

And why is nobody saying what most people are thinking and that is that in this case the Jews are bang out of order!! or do I speak what I know nothing about?

Is it acceptable to blow up children, mothers, old people, the innocent!? has Hitler come again!?

Im just so appalled that this being allowed to continue!

x Bella