Palestine

[broncofan]

Ha! Did you just try to "other" me?

I'm afraid you "other'd" yourself.

[Tapatio]

I'm afraid you "other'd" yourself.

Only at home, and twice a week max.

I do find your thing about Syria weak at best, but my intention is not to assess your logic skills

This is more of a visceral question, unless we have the power to make changes (which none of us do, I'm willing to bet. )

I could rationalize the conflict from either side and convincingly, I promise. But this isn't rational. None of it is rational.

This is visceral. And my gut tells me that Israel is a warmongering bully.

Your insults don't bother me.

[broncofan]

So you find my thing about Syria weak at best? You know if you reasoned from your head instead of your gut you might be able to think of a better figure of speech than thing.

I think we were about to discuss something useful with that last post about the historiography of the Old Testament, the first recorded genocide, and that Zionist front known as the bbc. But by all means don't be upset by this latest series of things I wrote.

[Tapatio]

Avoidance.

Back it up one or two posts more and I might engage- or more likely I'll just read what people say and let it inform my understanding of what others think of this issue (as was my intent.)

Again, no judgement.

And I promise, my brain is fine. I just occupy it with different questions than the classic "academic" might. It makes me feel practical.

A question, though, since you seem to have a strong opinion:

What do we do with Palestine, and Palestinians? They obviously can't live like this, what with the bombs and the murder and so on.

[Ben]

Anyone have thoughts in what's going on in Gaza?

I feel like the world is giving (has been giving) Israel a free pass on this.

I find Israel's policy toward Palestine to be genocidal.

Et vous?

What can one say.
In this vid Abby Martin explicates the unfolding tragedy:

Why are Americans Flocking to Fight for Israel?

[broncofan]

Avoidance.

A question, though, since you seem to have a strong opinion:

What do we do with Palestine, and Palestinians? They obviously can't live like this, what with the bombs and the murder an so on.

As the chief executive? I only have the power of one individual. One answer would be to threaten to reduce aid to Israel. Of course, a president who said that while campaigning would have difficulty getting elected with that policy. Those are the electoral politics in this country and no political leader has seen an advantage vote-wise departing from it. But it's a viable strategy for someone who wants to take a more balanced approach to the conflict.

Do you think we should intervene whenever there's a humanitarian crisis and without fail because I think there have been a lot of missed opportunities?

Do I think the Palestinians should live under air raids? Of course not. I support a two state solution, which means that they would be able to establish their own state. It's a matter of getting to that point. More pressure needs to be brought to bear on Israel. I don't want to fall back on cliches but if you are going to have an agreement, both sides will have to yield on their most sacred demands.

[buttslinger]

Imperial History of the Middle East

lets get some perspective.

[Prospero]

Zionist Front known as the BBC! Well that is a new one since most Jews in the UK would see the BBC as biased in another direction.

I suspect that this thread could become very incendary indeed with a lot of emotion over reason....


Meanwhile ...the free expression of dissent is dangerous under every many systems.

[Prospero]

And Mussolini would have been proud of this character....

Well-known Italian philosopher:'I’d like to shoot those bastard Zionists'

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...emium-1.606698

[Stavros]

In the immediate context of current military activity, there is one simple, inescapable fact. HAMAS knew, as it has always known, that if it firess a missile into Israel, Israel will retaliate. In one of the most densely populated areas of the world, and where HAMAS, let's face it, is not going to park its rocket launchers on the beach, the invitation to strike at heavily populated urban areas, with or without its residents, is a no-brainer, from a military point of view, and for Israel, it is invitation accepted. In this precise instance, HAMAS is to blame, and has no more right to represent Palestinians than a worm crawling out of the ground.

So why did HAMAS launch this escapade, and what does it want?
HAMAS in the last year has lost a crucial source of support, and resource (ie finances and materiel), in Egypt where its main ally, the Muslim Brotherhood has been strangulated by the military (there are theories that Qatar may be or offering to fill the gap, can't verify this). Having refused to back Bashar al-Asad in Syria, HAMAS also lost the support of Iran again -having gone through a period of nearly 3 years when they were not talking, over Syria, there were signs earlier this year that Iran and HAMAS might be patching things up, but not much came of it. The attempt to forge an alliance with Fateh a few months ago was a further sign of desperation for an outfit which some years ago actually won an election.

The current madness is thus an attempt by HAMAS to provoke Israel into doing what it does so well, use asymmetric violence to obliterate Palestinian property, and if people get killed, well that is the fault of HAMAS which relies on Israel to go berserk and use ten times as much force as it needs to make its point. Through the shocking images that are then broadcast around the world, HAMAS hopes to revive its support to struggle on. Venal people, practising venal politics.

The broader context is one in which Israel controls land, sea and air access to Gaza, refuses to allow people free travel in or out to the West Bank, monitors materials entering Gaza, for example forbidding the import of building materials; it also makes the export of produce more or less impossible, thereby creating prison camp or siege conditions which makes life intolerable, in the hope that people will just emigrate.

In other words, neither Israel nor HAMAS has a clue how to progress. Israel uses the HAMAS charter to point out that the movement seeks the 'destruction of Israel' even though Khaled Mashal has said these are just words and that he would be prepared to enter into negotiations with Israel. Netanyahu has an aversion to negotiations because this implies Israel will give up something, and other than releasing prisoners from gaol, Netanyahu's career is based on a rejection of the 1993 Treaty with the PLO and a 'no surrender' attitude.

By one of those bizarre charades that only the Middle East can produce, Gaza is under siege, Israel thinks it is under siege, and neither side can relieve itself of its siege mentality, real or imagined.

And here is the final irony -when HAMAS was formed during the first Intifada in 1988, it was supported by Israel who supported any Palestinian group that challenged the authority of Arafat and his Fateh movement (with the exception for obvious reasons of the PFLP and the other old-style Palestinian guerilla movements). Indeed, Israel had even before the formal creation of HAMAS recognised its precursor, Mujama al-Islamiya as a charity. And who else recognised HAMAS at this time? Hafez al-Asad, because he too hated Arafat and was delighted to see a new movement on the block.

So much violence, and for what? In a week or so Israel will withdraw, the Palestinians will lick their wounds, slowly re-build their homes from the rubble of the old ones, or try to emigrate to Germany, Canada or Australia. There will be reports for the UN, UNHCR, and the Israeli military all of which will gather dust in a library somewhere. The weary will pick up the 'road map' -presumably someone has created a 'road app' for those with smart phones- and the 'Quartet' might even send its envoy, Tony Blair to conduct 'talks' with people who don't want to talk. Blair has been to Gaza twice since being appointed Special Envoy 7 years ago, both visits in 2009. In the same period he has been to Jerusalem 119 times.

It is easy to despair, it is easy to take sides, and it is easy to wish the whole thing away. At some point, one can only hope that Israel will produce a politician with the courage to make courageous decisions, and a Palestinian with the brain to respond. The danger is that it is the Palestinians who will despair, and either commit ever more desperate acts, or give up. As yet, the wider conflict in Syria and Iraq has not percolated into the Occupied Territories -a surprising number of Arabs are indifferent to the Palestinian cause these days, most have no illusions about Israel, the fifth largest and most lethal armed state in the world, and don't wish to provoke them.

Tonight I am haunted by the image I saw on tv last night, of a baby girl barely six months old, dead in her father's arms. She is the future.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...75572295011847

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ling-out-syria

http://blogs.channel4.com/michael-cr...ony-blair/4236