Palin Says "Pray Away The Gay"

[InHouston]

True enough. You never heard me criticize Palin for the views of her church. Just those views she herself espouses. Her views on creationism, stem cell research, a woman's right to choose (all intimately related issues) are on record. They just happen to also be the views of her silly church.

For the record.

I support stem cell research.

I believe in a woman's right to choose.

Creationism should not be taught in schools. Evolution and Natural Selection address the origins of life. They do teach students about the Big Bang Theory, and in my opinion with not enough emphais on the fact that it is a 'theory'. I believe the Big Bang is science's own form of creationism, and that it is probably dead wrong.

[trish]

I disagree with you about the Big Bang being a kind of "creationism". We'll have to do that in another thread sometime.

[PapaGrande]

If you believe in guilt by association don't forget about the McCain endorsed pastors who prayed for rain to drench the democratic convention. Not that it's such a despicable prayer, as much it shows how ridiculous McCain's supporters and by association McCain himself is.

You mean to tell me you don't see any difference in some pastor from a church that McCain doesn't go to, that McCain doesn't have strong ties too endorsing him is the same thing as Obama Church and pastor? A church Obama actually attended for how many years? A pastor that Obama called a close friend and spiritual mentor. Obama's church and pastor didnt turn radical overnight.

Let me stop here and say I think all religion is bunk, but anyone with an ounce of objectivity can see these two situations are not remotely similar.

[trish]

Who here has the same political perspectives as their preacher, pastor, reverend etc.? Who here gives a damn whether their pastor is a democrat, a republican or a some kind of nutcase libertarian? Who here has chosen the church they attend every Sunday because of the pastor who preaches there? Who chose their particular place of worship because of the programs and works it performs? Who chose the their place of worship based on denomination and proximity to home? Who honestly and truely thinks there is any connection between a person's politics and the politics of that person's pastor?

While we're on the subject of religion, does anyone know why at the ripe age of seventy two, McCain had a spiritual revelation and changed his faith from Episcopalian to Southern Baptist? That's no trivial switcheroo. Was it an honest conversion, or a conversion of political convenience? Does religion really matter to McCain or is he just another asshole exploiting the idiots who still believe in MiddleEastern desert gods?

[PapaGrande]

Who here has the same political perspectives as their preacher, pastor, reverend etc.? Who here gives a damn whether their pastor is a democrat, a republican or a some kind of nutcase libertarian? Who here has chosen the church they attend every Sunday because of the pastor who preaches there? Who chose their particular place of worship because of the programs and works it performs? Who chose the their place of worship based on denomination and proximity to home? Who honestly and truely thinks there is any connection between a person's politics and the politics of that person's pastor?

While we're on the subject of religion, does anyone know why at the ripe age of seventy two, McCain had a spiritual revelation and changed his faith from Episcopalian to Southern Baptist? That's no trivial switcheroo. Was it an honest conversion, or a conversion of political convenience? Does religion really matter to McCain or is he just another asshole exploiting the idiots who still believe in MiddleEastern desert gods?

Come on, its not like Obama was just going down to the local church on the corner. People do pick churches based on the pastors, thats a large part how these mega churches and influential religious leaders gain power.
Trinity Union Church did/does have what I consider some non-mainstream views, and its a large church, so again, its not just like Obama was going down to the local church on the corner, and to suggest his 20 year membership at this church is just the same as some right wing pastor, from a church McCain doesn't attend, endorsing McCain. If you went to church and continuously heard things you disagreed with, wouldn't you find another church, or question your religion in general? Obama's story on this just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'm a total cynic, but it seems to me Obama chose this church partially to gain credibility within the black community in Chicago. From a Time article:
"With his charismatic leadership, and unapologetic (sometimes angry) rhetoric, Wright struck a chord with many of this city's growing black middle class. One of them, a young, relatively unknown community organizer named Barack Obama, joined Trinity in the mid-1980s, finding both a spiritual home and a useful entree into Chicago's black political elite. Obama soon came to view Wright as something of a father figure. Wright ended up consecrating Obama's wedding to Michelle Robinson, baptizing the couple's children, and even provided the title to his best-selling memoir, The Audacity of Hope."

Personally I think the attacks on Obama for Trinity were somewhat overblown, but I would have had more respect for him if he would have stuck by his church, if it was so important to him.

I don't know enough about the various Christian sects to know if McCains change is a big deal, but it very well could be politically motivated. So McCain and Obama both switched churches when it was politically convenient for them. What this tells us is they are both politicians first.
Politicians on both side use religion, in the positive and negative context to either gain favor, or spread fear with voters.

[trish]

Some people pick their church for the pastor, I'll agree. But most don't. Some people pick their church for because they wish to support the particular missions of that church (i.e. the soup kitchens, providing clothes and shelter for the poor of a particular set of neighborhoods). Obama did. But most people don't. Most people choose their church based on denomination and proximity. Their pastors are their "spiritual leaders" but given how pastors are chosen, the phrase is rather lacking in meaning. Most people are married by their pastors and buried by them. But they don't necessarily vote like them.

Obama, a top graduate of Harvard Law, gave up a dozen dozen top paying job offers to go to Chicago to do community organizing after a multitude of plant closings there. He chose his church for the works it was performing. No "editorialist", whether they're run in the Times or not, is in a position to contradict Obama's stated motivations.

Obama quit trinity for two reasons. He disliked much of what Wright was spewing and he was under enormous political pressure to sever that tie. No one reason would've sufficient. He left Trinity church, but as far as I know that's not the same as changing denominations which is what McCain did. People leave their churches for lots of reasons (greater or lesser) all the time. They get a job and they move, for just one example. Leaving your church is no big deal. Changing your denomination, say from Episcopalian to Southern Baptist would require more of a spiritual journey. Did McCain take that journey? Or did he fake that journey?

[PapaGrande]

Some people pick their church for the pastor, I'll agree. But most don't. Some people pick their church for because they wish to support the particular missions of that church (i.e. the soup kitchens, providing clothes and shelter for the poor of a particular set of neighborhoods). Obama did. But most people don't. Most people choose their church based on denomination and proximity. Their pastors are their "spiritual leaders" but given how pastors are chosen, the phrase is rather lacking in meaning. Most people are married by their pastors and buried by them. But they don't necessarily vote like them.

Obama, a top graduate of Harvard Law, gave up a dozen dozen top paying job offers to go to Chicago to do community organizing after a multitude of plant closings there. He chose his church for the works it was performing. No "editorialist", whether they're run in the Times or not, is in a position to contradict Obama's stated motivations.

Obama quit trinity for two reasons. He disliked much of what Wright was spewing and he was under enormous political pressure to sever that tie. No one reason would've sufficient. He left Trinity church, but as far as I know that's not the same as changing denominations which is what McCain did. People leave their churches for lots of reasons (greater or lesser) all the time. They get a job and they move, for just one example. Leaving your church is no big deal. Changing your denomination, say from Episcopalian to Southern Baptist would require more of a spiritual journey. Did McCain take that journey? Or did he fake that journey?

How different can it be? Its not like he changed to Jehovah's Witness or Mormonism, or something that has a significant difference from other Christian branches. Are Episcopalian and Southern Baptist that different?

Anyway it all seems very convenient for Obama to just happened to chose that church, as if that was the only church doing social work, and then quit the church when it became a political liability. Like I said I would have more respect for Obama if he would have stayed and defended his church, but obviously his move wasn't aimed at someone like me, but mainstream voters that actually think a Pastor saying 9-11 was a result of our foreign policy is "radical", and get scared by all the black people talk.

I'm not suggesting Obama didn't care about the work the church was doing, or his community organizing, just that he may have also chosen it to help further his political career.

I think its sad that religion plays such an important role in our politics, personally I think Romney would have made a better president than McCain, but I guess Mormon aint Christian enough for a large chunk of Republican primary voters.

[trish]

The Episcopal Church is the direct American offshoot of the Anglican Church. In creed, ritual and belief they are as close to Catholic as protestantism gets. The Southern Baptists are of the Anabaptist lineage. My understanding is that for Souther Baptists, belief in the Apostles' Creed is not necessary for the salvation. Those born into Southern Baptism probably never really think about the creed and what's in it. But I would presume that someone who switches from the Episcopal Denomination to Southern Baptism (for reasons other than marriage) has a intellectual or spiritual objection to the content of the Apostles' Creed.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,

who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy Christian Church,

the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

I'd be curious to know to what in the creed McCain objects.

As I've said above: leaving one's place of worship is not at all like leaving one's denomination.

[LIYankees]

lol. gotta love creationists

[LIYankees]

True enough. You never heard me criticize Palin for the views of her church. Just those views she herself espouses. Her views on creationism, stem cell research, a woman's right to choose (all intimately related issues) are on record. They just happen to also be the views of her silly church.

For the record.

I support stem cell research.

I believe in a woman's right to choose.

Creationism should not be taught in schools. Evolution and Natural Selection address the origins of life. They do teach students about the Big Bang Theory, and in my opinion with not enough emphais on the fact that it is a 'theory'. I believe the Big Bang is science's own form of creationism, and that it is probably dead wrong.

lol the big bang theory isn't the issue, its evolution. It is ridiculous how much religion comes into play. It is so damn useless. Any notions on our creation that started prior to darwinian theories are moot. It is evolution that should be taught in detail.