Embarassing

[Stavros]

With all due respect, you're naive and idealistic. That's OK....in fact it's admirable. But there's nothing civilized or decent about war. There is little human decency. You kill, maim , or be killed. It's as primal as that. You don't seem to understand that because you like so many others have been sanitized to what war is. Young men in combat week after week loosing brothers and narrowly escaping death themselves numerous times can't always walk the razor's edge you and the other armchair advocates would like them to.Yours is essentially the same argument we hear about water boarding, and is precisely why the US will never again achieve total victory over any present or future enemy.
I don't want you to misunderstand. I don't condone what the marines did. I understand it and relate to it. They should be disciplined quietly, handed their rifles back, and sent to kill more bad guys.... and the politicians should stay the fuck out of it.

I ought to be insulted by your claim that I am 'naive and idealistic', but it suggests a stunning ignorance on your part of a long, and documented history of the politics and the laws of war -you seem to either think that the history of armed conflict is equivalent to a John Wayne or a Sylvester Stallone movie; or wish that it was. If your reasoning were to hold, the Japanese should have killed captured servicement instead of putting them in camps, just as the Allied Powers should never have bothered to imprison captured soldiers -but why stop there? The Japanese attacked the USA at Pearl Harbour -why bother to intern Japanese Americans when you could kill them all? After all, as you say there's nothing civilized or decent about war. There is little human decency. You kill, maim , or be killed. It's as primal as that... and as you make no distinction between combatants and non-combatants those Japanese Americans should all have been toast.

The reality -not the ideal condition- the factual and informed -not the naive- history of armed conflict does concern the observance of rules, as well as the transgressions. You have opted for one side rather than another, in favour of violent, nihilist anarchy against international law and the values of a democratic society.

But lets look at this statement: Yours is essentially the same argument we hear about water boarding, and is precisely why the US will never again achieve total victory over any present or future enemy. Victory? What Victory? The only military victory the USA can claim since Hiroshima and Nagasaki is the successful invasion of Grenada in 1983, which is equivalent to the 82nd Airborne achieving a successful lock-down of Carnegie Hall (empty except for the Janitor). Waterboarding achieved nothing, something like 90% of the people interned in Guantanamo had never engaged the USA in any kind of military action, most were shopped by people in Afghanistan and Pakistan to get the money that was offered.

What depresses me is that you start from the position that you are under attack and must respond, without ever asking why? What is the purpose of armed conflict, and what does it achieve? I deplore war as an instrument of politics, because it fails to achieve the objectives which can be, and which eventually are reached by diplomacy. I am not soft on terror, I am not an armchair liberal, but a realist, someone who believes every conflict in the world can be solved with debate and diplomacy, and not through violence which creates more problems than it solves, which costs astronomical sums of money, and which ruins the lives of young people and their families.

My mother drove an ambulance during the Blitz in London; she used to fetch bodies, too often pieces of a human body from the wreckage of people's homes-she became a pacifist as a result, and I am honoured to follow in her slipstream, because Pacifism is the only courageous position that a human can take today, war has become the refuge of cowards, specifically those politicians and self-appointed 'leaders' like Osama bin Laden who neither want nor are capable of discussing their grievances, but who believe that if they want something they should just kill anyone who gets in their way to get it. In a world of so many options, why choose the one that doesn't work, that has been demonstrated time after time not to work?

[russtafa]

I ought to be insulted by your claim that I am 'naive and idealistic', but it suggests a stunning ignorance on your part of a long, and documented history of the politics and the laws of war -you seem to either think that the history of armed conflict is equivalent to a John Wayne or a Sylvester Stallone movie; or wish that it was. If your reasoning were to hold, the Japanese should have killed captured servicement instead of putting them in camps, just as the Allied Powers should never have bothered to imprison captured soldiers -but why stop there? The Japanese attacked the USA at Pearl Harbour -why bother to intern Japanese Americans when you could kill them all? After all, as you say there's nothing civilized or decent about war. There is little human decency. You kill, maim , or be killed. It's as primal as that... and as you make no distinction between combatants and non-combatants those Japanese Americans should all have been toast.

The reality -not the ideal condition- the factual and informed -not the naive- history of armed conflict does concern the observance of rules, as well as the transgressions. You have opted for one side rather than another, in favour of violent, nihilist anarchy against international law and the values of a democratic society.

But lets look at this statement: Yours is essentially the same argument we hear about water boarding, and is precisely why the US will never again achieve total victory over any present or future enemy. Victory? What Victory? The only military victory the USA can claim since Hiroshima and Nagasaki is the successful invasion of Grenada in 1983, which is equivalent to the 82nd Airborne achieving a successful lock-down of Carnegie Hall (empty except for the Janitor). Waterboarding achieved nothing, something like 90% of the people interned in Guantanamo had never engaged the USA in any kind of military action, most were shopped by people in Afghanistan and Pakistan to get the money that was offered.

What depresses me is that you start from the position that you are under attack and must respond, without ever asking why? What is the purpose of armed conflict, and what does it achieve? I deplore war as an instrument of politics, because it fails to achieve the objectives which can be, and which eventually are reached by diplomacy. I am not soft on terror, I am not an armchair liberal, but a realist, someone who believes every conflict in the world can be solved with debate and diplomacy, and not through violence which creates more problems than it solves, which costs astronomical sums of money, and which ruins the lives of young people and their families.

My mother drove an ambulance during the Blitz in London; she used to fetch bodies, too often pieces of a human body from the wreckage of people's homes-she became a pacifist as a result, and I am honoured to follow in her slipstream, because Pacifism is the only courageous position that a human can take today, war has become the refuge of cowards, specifically those politicians and self-appointed 'leaders' like Osama bin Laden who neither want nor are capable of discussing their grievances, but who believe that if they want something they should just kill anyone who gets in their way to get it. In a world of so many options, why choose the one that doesn't work, that has been demonstrated time after time not to work?

The converts seem to cause the worst problem at least here in Australia and i would be more than happy to deport them to the islamic country of their choice

[arnie666]

Oh my - this little posting has brought the violence out in some of you, hasn't it. We loudly proclaim the primacy of western civilisation. How we are the people with noble and high values. And then we get racist, sexist primitives like Arnie spewing utter filth. His contributions are not worth consideration. This man has the audacity to wear a policeman's uniform in the UK. His colleagues would be ashamed if they read what he posts here. An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest.

I do not condemn men of war doing what men of war have to do - which is fighting and killing the enemy. But the racism incarnate in remarks by Russtafa gives pause for thought surely - labelling all Muslims as primitives because of the propensity of a deluded section of their faith. Remember what the primitives of Christianity did in long centuries of the past - the inquisitition, burning apostates alive, killing religious dissidents enmasse, burning "witches', slaughtering the natives of conquered lands in the name of religion and so on. But does history matter? I guess not. And yes of course you could show us worse Onyouknees - soldiers commit atrocities. In Vietnam, in WW2 etc. But because it happens is no excuse for saying it is okay. It is never okay. Those who commit atrocities should be brought to justice. And those who dishonour the dead enemy should also be ashamed. This has nothing to do with left or right. It has to do with basic human decency. We can hardly hold our heads up and proclaim that we are better,and more civilised, when we see this - and in the case of some of the folk posting here condone this.

'An iredeemable and ignorant scumbag who is surely worse than many of those his job gives him the right to arrest'.

1 I am like Michael foot compared to some of the animals I work with.

2 That above statement shows your naivety, if you were in the same room as the punters who I deal with ,you would be in the shower for hours. If any of them were interested in you, you would be on your knees praying for me and my fellow ignorant scumbags to appear.

3 you still don't get the point, war is a horrible business, I work with some who were in the mob, unfortunately some of them also become punters. You send men and women into these shitholes ,ask them to cross swords with medieval throwbacks,some scars you cannot see , I guarantee you were sent over there did a tour , you wouldn't have started this topic. Do I think it is fine to urinate on corpses no I don't, in fact they should be punished for it by their officers in the field . What I object to is all the handwringing and condemnation from armchair quarter backs which to me is bollocks. And I know you are not stupid, think about why this is constantly being talked over and over in the news. There are far bigger issues, than 4 blokes who mades twats of themselves on camera.

4 where is your topic on the 200 odd US armed forces personnel cremated remains that were dumped in landfill sites, despite the families given assurances these people would be treated with the respect they deserve. Some respect .

[Prospero]

Arnie - have you been to a warfront? I have. I have seen it close-up so I DO know what I'm talking about.

[Prospero]

Arnie wrote: "why do bedwetting liberals want to gut brave men,,brave men worth ten of me and you using the vermin running the media, when you apologise and whine about child murderers, rapists and woman beaters when they are punished?

Wall to wall internet pornography, drug addiction to mind altering legal and illegal drugs, encouraged by the liberal establishment, reality tv.yeah lets ruin men's lives, men who put their lives on the line for our country.because british serviceman aren't safe from the media scum and liberal establishment. Take me out to the ball game ,all of you are worms who do not stand with these men against the obamination and the media scum.

"Don't you see you thick idiots, obama wants to cut the us marines, why? Because they are far too white and hetrosexual for him and his racist metrosexual friends. Stop drinking the cool aid you schumucks.oh and one day there will be a reckoning and on that day you will beg for men like these to save you.Thats why this is all over the mainstream media, to help the kenyan in the whitehouse to help him cut the US marines, a fine body of men and women."

Arnie - your remarks are beneath contempt. Publish your full Met details and lets see what your senior officers make of your your racist, fascist rants.

Oh and ehat are YOU doing here on an internet pornography forum Arnie.

[arnie666]

Arnie wrote: "why do bedwetting liberals want to gut brave men,,brave men worth ten of me and you using the vermin running the media, when you apologise and whine about child murderers, rapists and woman beaters when they are punished?

Wall to wall internet pornography, drug addiction to mind altering legal and illegal drugs, encouraged by the liberal establishment, reality tv.yeah lets ruin men's lives, men who put their lives on the line for our country.because british serviceman aren't safe from the media scum and liberal establishment. Take me out to the ball game ,all of you are worms who do not stand with these men against the obamination and the media scum.

"Don't you see you thick idiots, obama wants to cut the us marines, why? Because they are far too white and hetrosexual for him and his racist metrosexual friends. Stop drinking the cool aid you schumucks.oh and one day there will be a reckoning and on that day you will beg for men like these to save you.Thats why this is all over the mainstream media, to help the kenyan in the whitehouse to help him cut the US marines, a fine body of men and women."

Arnie - your remarks are beneath contempt. Publish your full Met details and lets see what your senior officers make of your your racist, fascist rants.

Oh and ehat are YOU doing here on an internet pornography forum Arnie.

Touched a raw nerve have I? and the only fascist on this thread at the moment is you,although it is early days yet with all the looneys that post on here .You are probably racist as well.I despise your views but I don't really give a shit to be honest you are very much a minority in this country whether you realise it or not,and your numbers are getting smaller thanks to the failures of both political parties .That is why you start to make threats and use labels because you have to hide behind it.

I suspect if you had your way people like me would be herded into the camps for 're education'.Where we would have to listen to propoganda with a rifle stuck behind the ear .

You also haven't answered my question, number 4.

[arnie666]

Arnie - have you been to a warfront? I have. I have seen it close-up so I DO know what I'm talking about.

No I haven't but I deal with the concequenses of politicians sending young men into harms way now and again .Land fit for heroes? bollocks. I also work with one person closely who served in northern Ireland, that is why I have the opinions I do on this topic and they are right.

[russtafa]

No I haven't but I deal with the concequenses of politicians sending young men into harms way now and again .Land fit for heroes? bollocks. I also work with one person closely who served in northern Ireland, that is why I have the opinions I do on this topic and they are right.

these politicians use these young men like they were toilet paper and then shed crocodile tears when they come home in bags but mean while import the same scumbags our troops are fighting and have them abuse them if they return alive and the left backs these scumbag pieces of shit all the way and attend protests with these muslim dogs

[hippifried]

All is forgiven because we're the civilized savages. Besides, civilized behavior & the "rules of war" are only for the defeated, & then only if the winner can't be isolated from the rest of the world long enough.

Here we go with unreasonable expectations again. I don't understand why anyone would expect civilized behavior from a bunch of kids, barely out of high school, who's current chosen occupation is killing, maiming, & generally ruining the lives of other people. Despite the cradle to grave memetic propagandizing to the contrary, there's nothing glorious, honorable, or moral about war in any aspect or at any level of human participation. Bloodlust & assholish behavior is not the human norm. These guys wouldn't even be marines if they weren't a couple tacos light of a combination plate to start with. Oh, is that politically incorrect? Too bad. Get over it. I don't do hero worship, & I just don't buy the bullshit that military adventurism is the reason I can speak my mind.

Is something going to happen to these particular marines? I don't know & I don't care. The only thing anybody seems to be pissed off about is that they were stupid enough to get caught. Nobody wants to know what's actually going on. Reality gets in the way of all that good whining from all sides & political bents. So much more convenient to just ignorantly claim victimhood as an excuse to be assholes.

[russtafa]

All is forgiven because we're the civilized savages. Besides, civilized behavior & the "rules of war" are only for the defeated, & then only if the winner can't be isolated from the rest of the world long enough.

Here we go with unreasonable expectations again. I don't understand why anyone would expect civilized behavior from a bunch of kids, barely out of high school, who's current chosen occupation is killing, maiming, & generally ruining the lives of other people. Despite the cradle to grave memetic propagandizing to the contrary, there's nothing glorious, honorable, or moral about war in any aspect or at any level of human participation. Bloodlust & assholish behavior is not the human norm. These guys wouldn't even be marines if they weren't a couple tacos light of a combination plate to start with. Oh, is that politically incorrect? Too bad. Get over it. I don't do hero worship, & I just don't buy the bullshit that military adventurism is the reason I can speak my mind.

Is something going to happen to these particular marines? I don't know & I don't care. The only thing anybody seems to be pissed off about is that they were stupid enough to get caught. Nobody wants to know what's actually going on. Reality gets in the way of all that good whining from all sides & political bents. So much more convenient to just ignorantly claim victimhood as an excuse to be assholes.

these young guys were sent by our governments to kill and then they are told to be little gentlemen and when they fuck up in extra ordinary circumstances that you or me would freak out in.fuck off! you expect too much of young guys that could die at any time