Pulse Nightclub in Orlando Attack

[notdrunk]

Most people here at HA know that I’m an atheist. Just read some of threads in the Religion and Politics section to see me and Stavros have at each other on this issue. We atheists think we’re right too. You can find us occasionally lamenting, “If only everybody gave up their religious mumbo-jumbo and saw the world through the keen, cool eyes of reason.” But that’s nonsense too. For even if we adequately answer the question of ontology, the issue of how to establish what constitutes moral and ethical behavior remains. The other guy, what he believes, how she dresses, how they behave is always the problem. “Hell is other people,” says Jean-Paul Sartre and twentieth-century existentialist, atheist philosopher who thought violence was necessary to pave the way for a communist revolution. Albert Camus, also an atheist and an existentialist broke with Sartre over this issue. He was a leader in the French Underground during the war and saw his share of mayhem.

We just have to learn respect and tolerate one another. Thanks to the First Amendment, America is one of the places where people can and do learn to adjust to each other and live with each other.

But having this argument here, in this thread, is far far afield. Omar Mateen was not a radical Islamist. Although in the last minutes of his life he credited ISIS with the murders he committed, he was not ISIS. Investigators are telling us he was confused about his sexuality. He visited the Pulse and other gay clubs for a number of years. He used a gay dating app. He likely never came out to his family because his father was a homophobe. Thinking he could be cured, he probably tried to take refuge in religion. His online searches lead him to not only ISIS, but Hezbolah and Al Qaeda. All sworn enemies of each other. Yet Omar took the hatred each had to offer (without becoming a member of any - which is why the FBI lost interest in him) and turned it toward himself. But religion is not the whole story. Omar deliberately chose Latino Night for his attack. His was a hate crime; a hate crime against himself, gays and latinos. It is no coincidence that this tragedy occurred at the moment when anti-gay, anti-latino and anti-muslim sentiment is loudly proclaimed by angry mobs and pundits everyday. His father, his religion and society were all dishing out hatred, all telling him he was unnatural, that he didn’t blend in. Notice, that Islam is not a necessary element of element of this story. We could easily tell the same story with almost any other religion taking the place of Islam. We could even tell a atheistic story where Omar hates himself because some bizarre naturalist theory tells him and his father that being gay is wrong because species need to reproduce or go extinct.

The shooter went off the deep end, not because of his beliefs but because he was pushed in that direction from every direction he turned. We might not be able to avoid every tragedy, but we could stop pushing people around. We could stop building walls, stop manufacturing assault weapons, stop manufacturing hate 24/7 and listen.

Remember the people who suffered and died this week were at The Pulse because it was a place where they felt they belonged; a place where they did in fact blend in - if nowhere else.

People tend to forget that ISIS/ISIL is also a brand. The group publishes a lot of propaganda online hoping that individuals will conduct acts of terrorism against the West. Even before Omar showed possible gay tendencies, he was ripe for radicalization. For example, he was suspended for cheering the 9/11 attacks on 9/11. As well, he was twice investigated by the FBI for possible terrorism ties. Most people aren't investigated for terrorism ties by the FBI. Can you name individuals twice investigated for terrorism ties? This isn't the first time that a radicalized individual targeted gay people to attack the West. Most people don't know about Ali Muhammad Brown and what he did in Seattle. He used gay social apps to murder two gay males because he wanted wage war against the United States.

Immigration has nothing to do with this act of terrorism.

[giovanni_hotel]

People tend to forget that ISIS/ISIL is also a brand. The group publishes a lot of propaganda online hoping that individuals will conduct acts of terrorism against the West. Even before Omar showed possible gay tendencies, he was ripe for radicalization. For example, he was suspended for cheering the 9/11 attacks on 9/11. As well, he was twice investigated by the FBI for possible terrorism ties. Most people aren't investigated for terrorism ties by the FBI. Can you name individuals twice investigated for terrorism ties? This isn't the first time that a radicalized individual targeted gay people to attack the West. Most people don't know about Ali Muhammad Brown and what he did in Seattle. He used gay social apps to murder two gay males because he wanted wage war against the United States.

Immigration has nothing to do with this act of terrorism.

It really doesn't take much to be investigated by the FBI.
All someone has to do is make the right phonecall and give an agent the right backstory.

I could get any Muslim right now where I work 'investigated' by the FBI.
'Cheering' 9/11 could be as little as getting into an argument with a co-worker saying we deserved to be attacked because of our foreign policy,(not my opinion, just an example.)

If Omar was really ISIL connected, he would still have been under investigative surveillance.
Instead as I'm sure the FBI found out, Mateen was an angry, emotionally troubled young Muslim man who was more curious about ISIL than anything else.

By definition this was a 'terrorist' attack, but it wasn't an ISIL driven attack.
Because more than anything IMO this was a hate crime committed by someone in great distress over his closeted sexuality.

I think we have to be careful to label any terrorist attacker who cries allegiance to ISIS before committing some atrocity as being a part of some larger ISIL terrorist network.

No one recruited Mateen. No one trained Mateen. No one helped him choose The Pulse nightclub as a potential high visibility soft target.

By making Omar an ISIL terrorist, you're elevating him to the level of an enemy militant/radical at war with the U.S.
When the truth is he's just a deranged individual trying to validate his murder lust and suicidal impulses.

[trish]

For example, he was suspended for cheering the 9/11 attacks on 9/11. As well, he was twice investigated by the FBI for possible terrorism ties. Most people aren't investigated for terrorism ties by the FBI. Can you name individuals twice investigated for terrorism ties?

I saw that in the Washington Post, which also said the story couldn't be independently verified. Nevertheless, one of his classmates said Omar claimed Osama bin Laden was his uncle. Of course you know Al Qaeda, which carried out the 9/11 attacks under Osama bin Laden, is an enemy of ISIS. So, was Omar ISIS or was he Al Qaeda? I put more stock in Omar Mateen's overall confusion about who and what he was, than in his having been radicalized. Radicals tend to be very specific about which extremes and conspiracy theories they're supporting. According to your post, the FBI twice decided he had no specific terrorist ties. I imagine the FBI takes a second look at everyone who demonstrates a continued interest those kind of websites.

Most people don't know about Ali Muhammad Brown and what he did in Seattle.

Ali Muhammad Brown one time told investigators he was "guided by his faith," yet he mostly claims his actions were in retaliation for U.S. actions in Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. He, like the Donald, also is an American citizen by birth. According to him his actions (murders committed in or prior to 2014) were more political than religious. Did U.S. attitudes toward immigration factor into his motivations? I don't know and neither do you.

However, back to Omar Mateen: to claim that Omar was not in any way goaded by the anti-immigration pollution that clouds the atmosphere around every Republican rally these days taxes reason and common sense to the breaking point.

Anti-immigration attitudes (against Muslims, Latinos and so on), the availability of guns, Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs about gays, homophobia in general, political grandstanding and fear mongering are all issues that played a role in this most current act of terrorism.

[notdrunk]

It really doesn't take much to be investigated by the FBI.
All someone has to do is make the right phonecall and give an agent the right backstory.

I could get any Muslim right now where I work 'investigated' by the FBI.
'Cheering' 9/11 could be as little as getting into an argument with a co-worker saying we deserved to be attacked because of our foreign policy,(not my opinion, just an example.)

If Omar was really ISIL connected, he would still have been under investigative surveillance.
Instead as I'm sure the FBI found out, Mateen was an angry, emotionally troubled young Muslim man who was more curious about ISIL than anything else.

By definition this was a 'terrorist' attack, but it wasn't an ISIL driven attack.
Because more than anything IMO this was a hate crime committed by someone in great distress over his closeted sexuality.

I think we have to be careful to label any terrorist attacker who cries allegiance to ISIS before committing some atrocity as being a part of some larger ISIL terrorist network.

No one recruited Mateen. No one trained Mateen. No one helped him choose The Pulse nightclub as a potential high visibility soft target.

By making Omar an ISIL terrorist, you're elevating him to the level of an enemy militant/radical at war with the U.S.
When the truth is he's just a deranged individual trying to validate his murder lust and suicidal impulses.

Again, ISIL is a brand. You have various terrorist organizations declaring "allegiance" to ISIL even though they don't operate in the same area as ISIL. For example, Boko Haram declared allegiance to ISIL even though they operate in Nigeria. ISIL publishes a lot of material online on how to attack the West. It wants people like Omar because they have a good chance to secede. It is looking for franchisees because it is a franchisor. It wasn't a simple hate crime. Did you read or heard news about the 911 transcripts? He mentioned Iraq and Syria aka typical shit that radicalized individuals mention.

Something is seriously wrong with you if you were cheering on 9/11. Omar was suspended from school because his of the cheering.

[notdrunk]

I saw that in the Washington Post, which also said the story couldn't be independently verified. Nevertheless, one of his classmates said Omar claimed Osama bin Laden was his uncle. Of course you know Al Qaeda, which carried out the 9/11 attacks under Osama bin Laden, is an enemy of ISIS. So, was Omar ISIS or was he Al Qaeda? I put more stock in Omar Mateen's overall confusion about who and what he was, than in his having been radicalized. Radicals tend to be very specific about which extremes and conspiracy theories they're supporting. According to your post, the FBI twice decided he had no specific terrorist ties. I imagine the FBI takes a second look at everyone who demonstrates a continued interest those kind of websites.


Ali Muhammad Brown one time told investigators he was "guided by his faith," yet he mostly claims his actions were in retaliation for U.S. actions in Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. He, like the Donald, also is an American citizen by birth. According to him his actions (murders committed in or prior to 2014) were more political than religious. Did U.S. attitudes toward immigration factor into his motivations? I don't know and neither do you.

However, back to Omar Mateen: to claim that Omar was not in any way goaded by the anti-immigration pollution that clouds the atmosphere around every Republican rally these days taxes reason and common sense to the breaking point.

Anti-immigration attitudes (against Muslims, Latinos and so on), the availability of guns, Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs about gays, homophobia in general, political grandstanding and fear mongering are all issues that played a role in this most current act of terrorism.

The transcript shows us that he was radicalized. It is no doubt that he was radicalized. He was very specific in the 911 calls about his motives. He didn't mention immigration and Hispanics. Stop trying to add on things that aren't there.

Islam muddles religion and politics. There is no separation of church and state. Church and state are one to Islam. Ali saw the United States attacking his brothers and sisters; therefore, he needed to respond even though he has never been to those countries that were attacked. He murdered those people because the United States military killed Muslims in those countries.

[giovanni_hotel]

When a closeted gay man attacks a gay club, under any metric that has to be a primary factor.
Was it greater than his alleged Islamic radicalism??

I can't say, that's why I stick with the FBI description that this was BOTH a hate crime and a terrorist attack.

[chupapau]

So what you are saying is the feeble minded concept of 'why can't we all just get along'?

Well we can't. That's just the way life works. Sorry you cannot understand that.

Oh he can understand it alright, he just is disappointed with people who have lost/haven't found their reason, and who are unable to answer with anything else than a 30 second/150 character message, much like yours.

So, you like a fight it seems, huh? (where is that f*cking peace emoticon when you need it) eace:

[chupapau]

I can't say, that's why I stick with the FBI description that this was BOTH a hate crime and a terrorist attack.

One with a very high low esteem factor.