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  1. #21
    filghy2 Professional Poster
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    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFanti View Post
    Here's what's NOT being said in the immigration discussion.
    Mexican immigrants vs immigrants from all other countries. There are many legal documented immigrants from South America, Asia, India, and Europe.

    When you peel away the layers, this is solely about Mexican immigrants.
    No it's not - illegals coming from Mexico are just the most prominent target. Have you forgotten the attempted Muslim ban? The Trumpistas' agenda is to severely cut overall immigration levels (legal as well as illegal) particularly from non-white non-christian sources.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigr...f_Donald_Trump
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ion/692447002/


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  2. #22
    Senior Member 5 Star Poster MrFanti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Quote Originally Posted by dns4809 View Post
    MrFanti
    Puerto Ricans are US citizens
    Correct - my mistake as I was trying to illustrate the competitiveness of other Hispanics vs Mexicans - having grown up myself looking at Mexicans fighting Puerto Ricans fighting Cubans in distinctly singular (read "segregated") communities.


    Last edited by MrFanti; 06-25-2018 at 06:02 AM.
    "I am, a SIGMA Male...

  3. #23
    Senior Member 5 Star Poster MrFanti's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Quote Originally Posted by filghy2 View Post
    No it's not - illegals coming from Mexico are just the most prominent target. Have you forgotten the attempted Muslim ban? The Trumpistas' agenda is to severely cut overall immigration levels (legal as well as illegal) particularly from non-white non-christian sources.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigr...f_Donald_Trump
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ion/692447002/
    Fair point - but when it comes to the border, it's predominantly about Mexicans (taking Haitians and Cubans into context too).
    As far as non-White is concerned, Europe is beginning to "tire" of non-White refugees....


    Last edited by MrFanti; 06-25-2018 at 06:00 AM.
    "I am, a SIGMA Male...

  4. #24
    Senior Member Platinum Poster
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    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFanti View Post
    Fair point - but when it comes to the border, it's predominantly about Mexicans (taking Haitians and Cubans into context too).
    As far as non-White is concerned, Europe is beginning to "tire" of non-White refugees....
    With violence so endemic in Central American states like Guatemala and Honduras (often fighting over their share of the US market in illegal narcotics), those voting with their feet have fled north, and, as with the Jews who fled Pogroms in the Russian Empire in the 19th century travelling west, many stayed in the first country they arrived in, be it Germany in 1900 or Mexico in 2018, and some ventured further -to the UK in 1900, the USA in 2018, so your point 'its predominantly about Mexicans' does not fit the facts.

    The issue here is immigration in general as well as its specific experience, be it the USA, Italy or Germany, but when it comes to Europe, you need to be more specific to defend the claim

    As far as non-white is concerned, Europe is beginning to "tire" of non-white refugees
    ...

    Let an American put it in words, few in number, great in meaning:

    I am the American heartbreak-
    The rock upon which Freedom
    Stumped its toe-
    The great mistake
    That Jamestown made
    Long ago


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  5. #25
    Senior Member Silver Poster buttslinger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Thanks for CHEATING with Obama's Supreme Court JUSTICE pick, Mitch McConnell, if you can't get your Muslim ban legally, try illegally.
    I said Trump was the best thing that ever happened to the Democratic Party, maybe he still is, If he goes down in History as the worst President in American History, maybe he can take what's left of the Republican Party with him.
    I am not in favor of too many immigrants, just like I'm not in favor of Mom working, when you're as far in debt as we are you have to pretend you're in control.



    World Class Asshole

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Although Justice Sotomayor delivered a scathing rebuke to her colleagues, the Supreme Court decided the financial interests of the President take precedence over the rule of law. The selective nature of the 'travel ban' means that where the President has financial interests, as in Saudi Arabia, its subjects can enter the US as often as they like, as did the majority of the men who entered the US in 2001 to slaughter thousands of its citizens. The UAE is exempt for the same reason, just as the President entered into a business deal with a Malaysian businessman in Canada even though Malaysia is a key conduit for the wealth of the Kim family in North Korea and is exempt from the ban. Whatever, the primary duty of the USA's institutions being to protect and promote the business interests of the President.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/26/u...T.nav=top-news


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  7. #27
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    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    One can try to dilute the immigration/invasion issue with lots of emotional appeals, but in the final analysis the numbers speak for themselves regardless of "racism." Racism is a tough call since all humans came from the same root. This appears to be accepted by religion and scientists alike. One can't have a static world of dictators and victims fleeing dictators forever. The world's victims have to stop being victims and solve problems at home. The United States can help, but it can't work magic. Nation building, world's policeman and provider of safe harbor are all equally impossible.


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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Quote Originally Posted by MykiX View Post
    One can try to dilute the immigration/invasion issue with lots of emotional appeals, but in the final analysis the numbers speak for themselves regardless of "racism." Racism is a tough call since all humans came from the same root.
    Because human beings are all descended from "the same root" means that there's no such thing as racism? Just because race is a social construct doesn't mean racism isn't real. Consider the following: A person hates Muslims and sees a Lebanese Christian and attacks that person based on the stereotype that brown skin=Muslim. Does the fact that they're not Muslim mean they haven't been victimized? Does it mean that the perpetrator does not harbor serious malice towards Muslims? Racism is based on the perception of intrinsic difference between groups and does not depend on that difference actually being real.

    Racism is real and stereotyping Mexicans as rapists is racism. Nobody is saying we should be nation builders or even take in illegal immigrants, only that we shouldn't have religious litmus tests for travel to the U.S. and we should not separate mothers from children for what is a misdemeanor in our penal code.


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    Last edited by broncofan; 06-27-2018 at 08:43 PM.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Quote Originally Posted by MykiX View Post
    One can't have a static world of dictators and victims fleeing dictators forever. The world's victims have to stop being victims and solve problems at home. The United States can help, but it can't work magic. Nation building, world's policeman and provider of safe harbor are all equally impossible.
    I think that merging three complex issues into one underestimates the scope of the problems. Nation building is a difficult term to define or even justify, as many modern states are the result of imperialism destroying rather than creating nations, the USA being one example, the multiple states of West Africa created by the British and French another, with a separatist movement in Cameroon now threatening to re-open divisions between French and English speaking citizens. Nation building often appears to be reduced to the policing of fractious societies within the state, as is the case in Afghanistan and Kosovo, but where internal corruption barely masks the extent to which the creation of a nation state can become a 'get-rich-quick' scheme for the elites chosen by the external power who prefer to pocket the money rather than invest it in the development of the country. Is it any wonder that the losers vote with their feet when life that was hard becomes intolerable?

    Syria on the other hand is a case of a 'nation' destroying itself -once the 'beating heart of Arab nationalism', 60 years of dictatorship has been sustained by violence, and while the standard reaction of the government to the opposition is to kill them -Hafiz al-Asad in 1983 destroyed most of old Hama when the people there rebelled against his rule- even by his father's standards, the basic message in Syria: if you don't support the government, live in another country, or die, has been taken to an extreme that has left the country in ruins and without any legitimate government at all, unless you want to grace with legitimacy a regime that has murdered more people than can be counted, displaced millions, and turned Syria into a dustbin state.

    Moreover, the fact that the USA was not always able or willing to export its democratic system and values to states in Central and Southern America may be responsible for the arrival of its citizens on the southern border. For a long time the US supported military dictators, US firms profiting from the benefits of a fixed relationship where markets were never free, while in other cases, like Nicaragua the US spent millions of dollars funding terrorists trying to overthrow the government elected by the people merely because the US didn't like it. Yet I believe there are fewer Nicaraguan 'victims' on the border trying to get in than there are Guatemalans and Hondurans who can no longer live in a threatening environment where gangs and cartels fight to the death over a shrinking market for their narcotics in the USA, which is where most of their customers live, but where desired narcotics like Marijuana can now be purchased legally in some states. One is tempted to say the Americans helped to create the junk economies of Central America, and is complaining when 'the victims' turn up on its doorstep seeking help.

    The deeper problem with, say Mexico appears when NAFTA is viewed as an attempt to deplete immigration through the devolution of industrial production across the border. International supply chains are now standard, but are being threatened with tariffs and non-tariff barriers, but if Mexico is an example of an oil-rich state that has failed to invest in its own future, if even NAFTA could not solve the immigration 'problem' maybe it is because capitalism in its most recent form is less interested in labour than it is in capital, with the consequence than jobs are not only hard come by in Honduras, but in Wisconsin too, with the prospect of Harley-Davidson going to the wall because of an ignorant President who is more interested in punishing the firm for producing bikes outside the US for an external market -which it has been doing for years- than he is in creating the business environment in which it can survive.

    So while the US cannot be the world's policeman, or provide a safe harbour for the poor, it cannot simply say 'not my problem' when in reality it helped to create the problem. In 1970 Albert Hirschmann wrote a book called Exit, Voice and Loyalty which looked intensely at this problem of the state failing to satisfy the needs of its citizens, it remains pertinent today but does not lay to the rest the more broader issue: do all human beings have the right to freedom of movement? If not, what rights do we have, who is to tell me where I can and cannot live? To deny a human being access to food, water, clothing and shelter is to deny us a basic human right.

    But maybe we are now entering a sustained period of conflict led by the USA in which human rights no longer mean anything, and it is kill or be killed, migrate or die. What happens when climate change forces 50 million from their homes and they head North?

    You ain't seen nothin' yet.



  10. #30
    filghy2 Professional Poster
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    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavros View Post
    Although Justice Sotomayor delivered a scathing rebuke to her colleagues, the Supreme Court decided the financial interests of the President take precedence over the rule of law. [/url]
    This should not come as a surprise. The US Supreme Court has a long history of politically-driven decisions that failed to protect individual rights or the democratic process against abuses of power. This Court is about as likely to rein in creeping authoritarianism under the current regime as the German courts did under Hitler.
    https://blogs.findlaw.com/supreme_co...-all-time.html



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