Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 30
  1. #1
    Senior Member Platinum Poster
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    8,467

    Default Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    As it is beyond doubt that immigrants and immigration -legal and illegal- are close to the top of the agenda in both Europe and North America, it must be time to grapple with this controversial topic. The crisis in Syria has been at the core of the wave of refugees seeking entry into Europe by legal or illegal means, but this wave also includes refugees from Iraq, Afghanistan and 'migrants' from other countries who, we are told, 'merely' want a better life in Europe than the life they have in countries such as Somalia or Eritrea; and there have also been among them people from Nigeria, Pakistan, and Albania.

    If there is a difference in immigration patterns in recent years, the scale is the most obvious.

    For example, with regard to the UK,
    between 1900-1931 there was net Emigration from the UK of c80,000 per annum;
    between 1931-1961 there was net Immigration of c19,000 per annum,
    from 1961-1981 net Emigration of c20,000 per annum,
    but from the 1990s onwards there have been levels of net Immigration which began in
    1997 at c47,000 per annum but had reached
    200,000 per annum by the 2000s, and in 2005 reached 320,000 per annum. (These figures are from the House of Commons paper linked below).

    In the USA, net immigration has been constant, the figures for legal immigrants show that for the decade
    1960-1969 there were 321,375; from
    1970-79 there were 424, 820;
    1980-89 -624, 438;
    1990-99 -977,534,
    2000-09 -1,029,143 and between
    2010-13 -1,031, 722. (Figures from the Wikipedia page).

    The high figures for the UK and the incremental increase from the 1990s onward was shaped to some extent by the expansion of the European Union and the creation of the Single Market which came into effect in 2006. This means that EU nationals comprise 41.8% of the immigrant figures, but 58.2% came from non-EU countries, and of those 8.7% came from the Old Commonwealth and 16.5% the New Commonwealth, the remaining 32.9% from other countries.

    In the USA the majority of legal immigrants in recent years have come from China and India. Mexico may be the single largest source, but the numbers from there have declined while the numbers from Asia have risen; European immigration fell by 32% between 2010-13. (Info from Forbes in the link below).

    To take a very general view, I think we can identify the causes of emigration/immigration, which for the most part are-
    Of a Negative Kind
    -war, political conflict and instability at a level that is life-threatening (eg, Syria 2015);
    -persecution due to ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation and related issues;
    -unsustainable living caused by natural/human induced forces such as drought, soil erosion, coastal erosion, etc (eg, a million emigrated from New Orleans after Katrina and did not return);

    Of a Positive Kind
    -seasonal or temporary migration for work;
    -the search for a better quality of life.

    There is a dispute about whether or not immigration, be it permanent or temporary is a benefit to the national economy, the argument revolves around costs and benefits, for example, it may be cheaper to hire seasonal workers in food production whose labour costs are lower than the indigenous work-force; but seasonal workers repatriate most of their income to their country of origin; on the other hand migrant workers may be the crucial part of an economy that only functions for 6 months of the year, in food production or in tourism -ski resorts, summer resorts for example. It is assumed professionals among immigrants are economically beneficial, if only because they earn more, pay more taxes and spend more in the economy, but the figures on immigration and the UK economy are disputed.

    The cultural and social impact on the UK may be more profound than the USA (I am not sure about this). For example, in 1993 the immigrant population of London was estimated at 4%; in 2013 it was estimated to be 37%. The largest proportion of foreign born citizens came from India; the largest group of foreign migrants from the EU were from Poland, but overall the largest EU groups in the UK are from Germany and France and may be classified as temporary migrants if they are in the UK as part of their contract of work. So you can see how fluid some of these figures are.

    There are a large range of issues to discuss
    -the moral case for taking refugees from conflict whose lives are in danger, who may have lost their homes and members of their family. Both the UK and the USA have a long and noble tradition of sanctuary, the obvious question is -Can we take everyone from conflict zones who begs to come?
    -the economic case rests on whether or not the costs of admission in the long term are outweighed by the benefits;
    -the political case revolves around the extent to which immigration is viewed as a negative issue for campaigning politicians;
    -the cultural case tends to concern the way in which immigrants do or do not integrate with the new society into which they emerge.

    It is hard to know when or if this trend will end. Will climate change and extreme weather events, or political collapse in one country after another drive millions 'north' (or in Africa or South-East Asia, 'South') in search of security and a better life? What can the currently stable and prosperous countries do to prevent other states from descending into the civil war in which life becomes unbearable?

    Immigration, legal and illegal, may be the most difficult practical problem of our times. I do not have a solution to it, but how is the best way in which we can handle it?

    Sources:
    House of Commons Briefing Paper
    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...mk5zZN8J2-4ZTA

    Stats on the UK from Migration Watch plus discussion of the issues
    http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/what-is-the-problem

    Forbes article on immigration patterns in the USA
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotk...-know-and-you/

    Wikipedia stats on immigration to the USA
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigr..._United_States


    1 out of 1 members liked this post.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Silver Poster buttslinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    3,447

    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    I am one of the few people here who can remember an Elementary School Experience that was 100% White, and I remember it as better than today, it seemed like suburban society had a thumb on druggies, homos, even blacks. JFK was in office and the future was BRIGHT in a real sense. The Cold War was in full swing and the enemy was "over there" and the threat of nuclear annihilation eclipsed human rights. Dad worked and Mom stayed home with the kids.
    Immigration is a package deal with a society that is more pressured and faster, the Pakistani Mom at my 7-11 hops on a jet and flies over here half the year, her husband and kids come over here for the money and education, and then jet back to be home. They can literally work 80 hours a week. When I worked at the Library of Congress in my twenties, it was funny to walk past a couple and hear them speaking some foreign language. Now that experience happens any time I go to Walmart or Shoppers Food Warehouse.
    My first townhouse had strict rules for paint and fences and yard maintenance, but it was so run down and poor nobody followed the rules. When I moved to a nicer community we had much higher monthly Community Dues, but the entire place was tended like a garden, with landscaping, bike paths, free pools and a sports center. Everybody followed the rules.
    Ozzie and Harriet still exist, only now they live in a gated community. You can still buy lumber like they had in the 1950s, it just costs a lot more.
    Dino Velvet had a thread long ago about who was cooler, John Wayne, or Clint Eastwood. The DUKE was from a different time, when men were men. You didn't need a fucking SCHOOL or JOB to tell you what you were worth. Times have changed now and cowboy pictures are passe'. Economics can be good and bad, but they are never wrong. The Republicans think if we bring John Wayne back, everything will be cool again. Gimme a break. Karl Marx was kind of a science fiction writer, predicting Communism. I like Philip K Dick, who predicted a "Blade Runner" future of a blended cultural society with robots gone haywire. In the end the future will be both economic and moral.
    Imagine some American Indian kids on a reservation telling stories about how the Asians and moral decay will kill the White Man. What comes around goes around.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Blade%20Runner_0.jpg 
Views:	34 
Size:	282.2 KB 
ID:	875014  


    World Class Asshole

  3. #3
    Eurotrash! Platinum Poster Jericho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Corner booth at the Titty Twister
    Posts
    9,858

    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Hardly the first time we've been overrun with furrinners!

    We'll improvise, adapt, overcome...And then, at the end, in the nursing home. Spend out our time, pissing and whining about the good old days while a 3rd (should we live so long) generation Syrian nurse changes our diapers and wipes the drool from our chins.

    MoPower!


    2 out of 2 members liked this post.
    I hate being bipolar...It's fucking ace!

  4. #4
    Eurotrash! Platinum Poster Jericho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Corner booth at the Titty Twister
    Posts
    9,858

    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Or, failing that, personally, I'm looking forward to being a casino owner!


    I hate being bipolar...It's fucking ace!

  5. #5
    Junior Poster nitron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    299

    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Think the answer to this problem might be the problem of another answer .(weakAI,climate warming environmental technology,massive unemployment ,massive automated safety net,hobbies)



  6. #6
    Senior Member Platinum Poster
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    8,467

    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Immigration returns again to the top of the political agenda in Europe and the USA, with the Italian government violating the international Law of the Sea to deny the right of a ship carrying refugees and migrants to dock at an Italian port, and the US government imposing a 'zero tolerance' policy on illegal immigrants that has led to children being separated from their parents and locked in cages patrolled by armed guards.

    One of the key architects of this policy is the President's adviser, Stephen Miller, who in turn has been influenced by the research and advocacy of the Cuban born academic, George Borjas. I offer here two contasting arguments about immigrants in the USA. The sophisticated arguments of Borjas which looks at the claim that low-skilled immigrants damage the wage rates of low-skilled Americans and in some cases takes their jobs, but which argues for what is often called 'managed' or 'controlled' immigration, which may be seen either as a rational response to a critical problem, or a loaded term that means, in effect: stop immigration altogether.

    There are weaknesses in Borjas's analysis. He takes 'high school dropouts' as a key indicator without looking more broadly at youth employment, and has two curious arguments that seem to me to undermine the ideas that are current in the US administration.

    The first is this whole issue of 'skilled immigrants', a concept that is also central to the debate in the UK where apparently we want trained doctors and nurses, not bricklayers or labourers -ie, we want university educated people not thickoes, until it becomes evident -and this is apparently a major problem for Miller- that the 'skilled immigrants' are mostly from Asia, be it China, Japan, Korea, or India -skilled, but not white or Christian.

    The second relates to Borjas's analysis of wage rates which argues that while blue collar wages have been depressed the 'bosses' have correspondingly benefited, as their profit margins have improved, thus:

    Somebody’s lower wage is always somebody else’s higher profit. In this case, immigration redistributes wealth from those who compete with immigrants to those who use immigrants—from the employee to the employer
    .

    I estimate the current “immigration surplus”—the net increase in the total wealth of the native population—to be about$50 billion annually. But behind that calculation is a much larger shift from one group of Americans to another:The total wealth redistribution from the native losers to the native winners is enormous, roughly a half-trillion dollars a year. Immigrants, too, gain substantially; their total earnings far exceed what their income would have been had they not migrated.
    When we look at the overall value of immigration, there’s one more complicating factor: Immigrants receive government assistance at higher rates than natives. The higher cost of all the services provided to immigrants and the lower taxes they pay (because they have lower earnings) inevitably implies that on a year-to-year basis immigration creates a fiscal hole of at least $50 billion—a burden that falls on the native population.

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...nt-jobs-214216

    What is bizarre about this argument, is that it appears to suggest the 'bosses' are ripping off the workers. As if to then say, No way, Jose, we need to change that. But isn't that socialism? Is not the whole purpose of capitalism to enable people with capital to invest it in order to increase their return? Perhaps the President so committed to 'returning' jobs to America from China should add that wages will rise too, something the owner of a business ought to give him pause for thought, as the employer of low-wage, low-skilled workers who speak Spanish very well. Or he could just be a hypocrite.

    The alternative argument on immigration is here-
    https://www.npr.org/2017/08/04/54132...-american-jobs



  7. #7
    Senior Member Silver Poster buttslinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    3,447

    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    It feels like something's ready to blow. I'm going to put a clear plastic tarp over myself, like at a Gallagher Show!


    World Class Asshole

  8. #8
    filghy2 Professional Poster
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,373

    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Borjas's view is definitely a minority view among economists. Here's a couple of good articles. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...-for-americans
    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...n-not-a-burden

    Immigration levels as a share of the population were much higher in the 19th and early 20th centuries than they are now. If immigration had such adverse impacts then how did the USA become such a successful economy?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	usa-immigration-percentage.png 
Views:	7 
Size:	88.1 KB 
ID:	1081138



  9. #9
    Senior Member Platinum Poster
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    8,467

    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Quote Originally Posted by filghy2 View Post
    Borjas's view is definitely a minority view among economists. Here's a couple of good articles. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...-for-americans
    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-09-22/immigrants-are-a-fiscal-boon-not-a-burde
    Many thanks for these links, I particularly liked this in the second link:

    Recently, the Department of Health and Human Services put out a report supposedly showing that refugees -- one very small subset of immigrants -- pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits. President Trump’s adviser Stephen Miller, an ardent supporter of immigration restrictions, then reportedly attempted to censor the report, removing all mention of refugees’ tax contributions. This suggests that many restrictionists are relying on their anti-immigrant convictions instead of hard evidence.



  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: Immigration -the defining issue of our times?

    Immigration is not the answer. Helping people requires helping them where they live.



    The world creates 80,000,000 new people every year beyond those who die.
    Bringing 1,000,000 here only messes up the United States and does nothing for the world.
    Stealing the smart people from other countries only makes it worse.



Similar Threads

  1. Immigration Reform
    By Donkey in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-15-2013, 08:48 PM
  2. immigration law
    By bladex76 in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 04-27-2010, 11:37 PM
  3. The defining moment of a scene
    By macjay18 in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 04-01-2009, 12:54 AM
  4. America and Immigration
    By DJ_Asia in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-30-2007, 11:17 AM
  5. this Immigration bullshit going on......................
    By JohnnyWalkerBlackLabel in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 05-30-2007, 06:29 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •