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10-06-2015 #11
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysics genius, speaks on discrimination.
And I understand that genes don't directly encode behavior but proteins. But ultimately this has behavioral consequences etc.
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10-06-2015 #12
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysics genius, speaks on discrimination.
On the one hand this science must be the key point of Dawkins' argument, but on the other hand is it not also the case that theories in science are often brought into the public realm to become part of political discourse, and is this not where many people felt Wilson went wrong with his theory of Sociobiology?
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10-07-2015 #13
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysics genius, speaks on discrimination.
I’m a birdwatcher Jim, not an evolutionary biologist! There a certain species of moth that tastes so badly that Blue Jays avoid them. I was always puzzled how that moth gene got started. Wasn’t the first such mutation eaten? Then there’s another species of moth that mimics the appearance of the yucky tasting ones. They gain the benefit of appearing to taste bad, but when the jays find out they’re actually yummy, the death-by-jay mortality rate goes up for the yucky species too.
What about those genes that code for sexual reproduction? Before sex was ‘invented’ a single-celled life-form could expect to live forever. Do the genes that code for sexual reproduction benefit the individual carrying them? Okay, the carrier gets to have orgasms; but is the trade-off worth it?
The genes that make language possible wouldn’t have served just one individual very well. Could it be that tribes are the proper unit of selection for natural language?
I don’t really have a opinion on any of these questions; just throwing them out as things that may be relevant to your post.
If God wanted Pluto to be a planet he would’ve given it more mass than 136199Eris.
I’m not sure why Dawkins decided in 1976 to write a popular book (The Selfish Gene) or why Wilson decided to write his. I suspect their motivations were one part vanity and one part academic and nearly zero parts political; but I don’t know. Lewontiin was writing at the same time and Stephen Jay Gould had a monthly column in Natural History magazine in which he was pushing an idea that downplayed the just-so-stories that he felt overplayed the hand of natural selection in the course of biological evolution. Eldritch was putting forth his theory of punctuated equilibrium in the popular press. It seems to have been an exciting time for evolutionary biologists and everyone saw their chance to become a guru. I wouldn’t be surprised if economist of a libertarian and democratic socialist bent saw an opportunity to spin the excitement, although I’m not familiar with any particular examples.
1 out of 1 members liked this post."...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.
"...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.
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10-07-2015 #14
Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysics genius, speaks on discrimination.
If God wanted Pluto to be a moon, He would've put it in orbit around the plane, He would've put it in orbit around a planet instead of a star.
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10-07-2015 #15
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysics genius, speaks on discrimination.
[QUOTE=trish;1640345]
The genes that make language possible wouldn’t have served just one individual very well. Could it be that tribes are the proper unit of selection for natural language?
--Language is genetic? Never heard that before.
I’m not sure why Dawkins decided in 1976 to write a popular book (The Selfish Gene) or why Wilson decided to write his. I suspect their motivations were one part vanity and one part academic and nearly zero parts political; but I don’t know. Lewontiin was writing at the same time and Stephen Jay Gould had a monthly column in Natural History magazine in which he was pushing an idea that downplayed the just-so-stories that he felt overplayed the hand of natural selection in the course of biological evolution. Eldritch was putting forth his theory of punctuated equilibrium in the popular press. It seems to have been an exciting time for evolutionary biologists and everyone saw their chance to become a guru. I wouldn’t be surprised if economist of a libertarian and democratic socialist bent saw an opportunity to spin the excitement, although I’m not familiar with any particular examples.
--The deeper problem may be that Science has no interest in morality.
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10-07-2015 #16
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysics genius, speaks on discrimination.
--Language is genetic? Never heard that before.
--The deeper problem may be that Science has no interest in morality.
Whether there’s a science of morality or not may depend on what you think morality is. Is there a science that attempts to tease out what is Good and what is Evil and locate these concepts in an absolute Platonic, religious or metaphysical realm? I would think not many scientists (if any) have a professional interest in that sort of thing. Is there a science of what you ought and ought not to do? Insofar as most scientists are professionally interested in describing and understanding what is, their speculations as to what ought to be remain non-professional, given Hume’s is/ought divide. Of course that shouldn’t prevent some ingenious investigators from describing and coming to a correct understanding of what ought is. Right?
Last edited by trish; 10-07-2015 at 04:39 PM.
"...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.
"...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.
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10-07-2015 #17
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysics genius, speaks on discrimination.
Yeah, you're right. He put it in orbit around star along with eight planets and a billions of asteroids. Even though Pluto is massive enough to have naturally settled into a roughly spherical shape (geologists say it's in hydrostatic equilibrium) it's not massive enough to have swept it's orbit clear of those pesky asteroids. For some reason the International Astronomical Union (one of those fucking pinko unions trying to second guess God) decided that to be a planet it's not good enough to be round and orbiting a star...you have to be a fucking broom too. Some astronomers call Pluto a dwarf planet but still don't include it in the pantheon of planets. Yikes! That's like saying a dwarf human isn't a human!!
I like to think of Pluto as a reasonably good candidate who just didn't quite get the job because of it's poor debris sweeping skills. (Damn company should provide some on the job learning, don't ya think?)
"...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.
"...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.
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10-07-2015 #18
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysics genius, speaks on discrimination.
Addendum to Post#16:
On the other hand, scientists (like most people with jobs) have a professional interest in behaving ethically: with their students and their colleagues, as well as keeping their professional pursuits (experiments and writings) within ethical boundaries. But of course, this is not the same thing as having a professional interest in pursuing ethics or morality as research programs in and of themselves.
"...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.
"...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.
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10-07-2015 #19
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysics genius, speaks on discrimination.
But there probably is an ample history of scientists bringing biases to the table and attempting to justify social policies based on their findings. One could say they did not observe the scientific method or they transcended the bounds of their profession, but there's a circularity to that argument. Of course, science is supposed to employ certain methodologies and be more descriptive than normative, but that does not mean scientists are not aware of the social consequences of their research and allow this to bias them.
It would be difficult to study morality from a scientific standpoint...it's not exactly tractable or testable.
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10-07-2015 #20
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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysics genius, speaks on discrimination.
I realize this is the argument Republicans put forth when they talk about climate change! That's certainly not what I want to evoke. But scientists might want to write popular science books out of vanity, but there is the risk that they are really creeping towards domains of study that are not purely scientific but pretending they are. Or rather implicitly saying that their scientific credentials give them special insight into social problems.
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