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  1. #31
    Senior Member Professional Poster peejaye's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko

    So this "demented old biddy" is now thinking of boycotting the World Cup? What the fuck as that got to do with Politics?? Just how much harm will that do to the Soviet Union? Laughable! They will get support from no other country competing. Biggest losers there will be England fans and the team! Typical Tory shite!
    Sport is sport & Politics is Politics, some people take it too seriously, mentioning no names.
    All FIFA will do if England pull out is replace them with the team from the group who lost out.



  2. #32
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    Default Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko

    Quote Originally Posted by peejaye View Post
    So this "demented old biddy" is now thinking of boycotting the World Cup? What the fuck as that got to do with Politics?? Just how much harm will that do to the Soviet Union? Laughable! They will get support from no other country competing. Biggest losers there will be England fans and the team! Typical Tory shite!
    Sport is sport & Politics is Politics, some people take it too seriously, mentioning no names.
    All FIFA will do if England pull out is replace them with the team from the group who lost out.
    "demented old biddy"-?? I think you can do better than that, and anyway no, that was my idea, as the UK government does not have the power, as far as I know, to prevent the England team or any sporting body to take part in international events. FIFA in any case is a corrupt organization whose primary aim is to make money from football. Nevertheless, the FIFA World Cup is one of the biggest sporting events in the world and for Russia a hugely prestigious event too, but I doubt that either FIFA or individual countries will not take part. It would also be a blow to those small businesses that stand to make money from the event, not just those determined to rip off supporters travelling to Russia.

    As for sport being sport, it is embedded in politics, in Russia perhaps more than many other states and I see the World Cup as another means whereby Putin will present himself as a successful politician immune from the punishment he deserves for the crimes his country has committed. Since we cannot prevent the England team from going -Mrs May has said in the House today that no officials or Royal Family will represent the country in Russia- but I would suggest supporters stay home and save their money.

    But how do you see this, Peejaye? Is it an act of terrorism? An act of war? An accident?


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  3. #33
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    Default Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko

    I believe it was an act of terrorism by Russia or one of its agents. There is some question about whether it was done with the knowledge of Putin or by some rogue element, but this is always the speculation when someone turns up dead and it's convenient to the regime. Putin's recent response to the Russian hacking claims was that maybe someone patriotic did it. Even if there are "patriots" carrying out his will, this supposed alibi only makes Russia look like a vast, out of control criminal enterprise. The mafia don does not have to order the hit if the lower rungs know what he wants and what is acceptable to procure it.

    The only alternative to these two possibilities given the targets seems to be a false flag. And then there's the question of whether there have been multiple false flags over years and years or only this one. And how does a framed party act? Do they acknowledge the incriminating appearance but protest their innocence or do they immediately make threats and accuse the victimized country of propagating a fake news campaign against it?

    This is just the latest in a series of cases in which it looks like Russia, knowing that the world is afraid of unstable nuclear powers, doesn't know exactly how to respond when he acts without any fear of consequences.



  4. #34
    Senior Member Professional Poster peejaye's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko

    I see it as attempted murder & had we a sufficient Police & Intelligence service they could try & find the perpetrator and lock him up.
    I'm convinced Vladimir Putin wasn't in Salisbury & never has been!
    If you're British, don't throw stones in glass houses, this countries past is shocking, rumours of deformed babies born into Royalty given away for adoption or even murdered?
    You, like the Government are a bunch of fucking hypocrites!



  5. #35
    Senior Member Professional Poster peejaye's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko

    Quote Originally Posted by broncofan View Post
    I believe it was an act of terrorism by Russia or one of its agents. There is some question about whether it was done with the knowledge of Putin or by some rogue element
    A good posting but are you calling it an act of terrorism because the accused are Russian? What if it were your country? I won't lecture you about some of the USA's past!
    In all honesty; Do ANY of us know what's going on in Russia? The BBC have been proved of fake news, SKY is owned by Murdoch, I don't know how trustworthy CNN are?
    I've always gone through life thinking people believe what they want to believe, that's why travel is the biggest education in life. My advice to anyone young or old is; Try it.



  6. #36
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    Default Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko

    Quote Originally Posted by peejaye View Post
    I've always gone through life thinking people believe what they want to believe, that's why travel is the biggest education in life. My advice to anyone young or old is; Try it.
    I haven't been to Russia, but what I think of Putin certainly doesn't reflect what I think of Russians, particularly given the way he's manipulated the power structures in Russia to benefit himself and does not serve at the will of the people. I acknowledge that the U.S. has committed many human rights violations, and while I can point out differences in them, it might sound like hair-splitting. Let me just say that if journalists and Democratic politicians were turning up dead here, it would be shocking and worrisome.

    I just think your country has to consider the violation of its sovereignty more than the overall human rights record of other countries around the world. Is Putin allowed to order a hit on a target in Britain and carry it out in a way that threatens a lot of your citizens and not face any consequences?



  7. #37
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    Default Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko

    Quote Originally Posted by broncofan View Post
    I believe it was an act of terrorism by Russia or one of its agents. There is some question about whether it was done with the knowledge of Putin or by some rogue element, but this is always the speculation when someone turns up dead and it's convenient to the regime.
    I find this problematic, because I am not sure that 'terrorism' is a crime in international law, but the description of an event that in reality is an act of war. If you consider the 9/11 attacks, although they were not carried out by a state, but a non-state actor called al-Qaeda, that organization declared war on the USA in 1998 and subsequently attacked US targets in East Africa and the Yemen, and for that reason the US defined al-Qaeda 'operatives' as enemy combatants and thus subject to the laws of war and thus, at Guantanamo Bay a military tribunal rather than a court of law, though even this is contested by some jurists and politicians.

    Critical to this situation is that the weapon used in the attack is a nerve agent of which the production as well as the dispensation is illegal under international law, and it is not clear if a cell of terrorists could manufacture such an agent, whereas it is believed the Russians do indeed produce nerve agents which is why there has been a call for the UN agency to seek access to Russia to investigate their facilities. Even if it is proven that the Russians do not produce these agents, there is evidence that North Korea does and there is no reason to suppose they would not sell such agents to the Russians.

    That the evidence points to Russia as a state is what raises the level here, and thus it must be considered an act of war, even if war itself is not formally declared, particularly as this is not the first time that it has happened. It is to my mind naive to suppose anyone not part of the Russian state machine could do this, while Putin's Russia may not be the USSR, he has done what he can to replicate much of its internal intelligence and security apparatus, with the ultimate point being who else wanted to eliminate Skripal?


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  8. #38
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    Default Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko

    Quote Originally Posted by peejaye View Post
    I see it as attempted murder & had we a sufficient Police & Intelligence service they could try & find the perpetrator and lock him up.
    I'm convinced Vladimir Putin wasn't in Salisbury & never has been!
    If you're British, don't throw stones in glass houses, this countries past is shocking, rumours of deformed babies born into Royalty given away for adoption or even murdered?
    You, like the Government are a bunch of fucking hypocrites!
    It is not about hypocrisy but the danger of the relative crimes you imply defeating any moral argument for a response. It is true that the UK has engaged in 'extra-judicial' killings abroad, most recently British citizens murdered in drone strikes in Syria, and non-British citizens in Afghanistan, but the UK government would defend these actions as 'self-defence' under the Charter of the UN. There was also the claim that the British Army had a 'shoot to kill' policy in Northern Ireland during the troubles, a claim that was always denied, but it could be argued the Provisional IRA and other paramilitary groups also had their own 'shoot to kill' policy suggesting that none of the people mentioned were on the right side of the law. And it was a civil war, and the participants were not afraid to say so.

    You seem to me to be ignoring the flags that are waving in the wind -the identity of the victims who were clearly targeted; that the Russians have done this before; that they have used chemical and nerve agents as weapons even though -or because- they are volatile and unpredictable. It is not about a comparison of British and Russian methods of killing, but the precise nature of this case. I find it astonishing that you cannot seem to grasp how important the use of a nerve agent is, it takes warfare back 100 years to the Somme and Verdun, and forward to a future that we were supposed to make impossible, and bear in mind that using nerve agents or Polonium is what, one, two, three steps away from using Nuclear Weapons in a designated 'battlefield'?

    You could argue that these are symbolic acts- as Russia resents the criticism of its support for the Asad regime and its use of chemical weapons in Syria, so it uses a chemical agent in the UK as a slap in the face; as they are aware that the US President when a candidate pondered using Nuclear Weapons and has threatened to destroy North Korea - so here is the proof that Russia too can be destructive if it wants to be. Behind all of this day-to-day provocation by Russia is the deeper problem that Putin wants Russia to be a great world power, to at least restore the glory days of the bi-polar world he grew up in when he joined the Communist Party and the KGB. In other words, when the US and the USSR 'ruled the world'. But he wants the world to take him seriously by using threats and violence, by taking revenge on the democracies he believes deceived him and Russia over Iraq and Libya and that fomented the unrest in the Ukraine which led to the Maidan Revolution and the prospect of Ukraine becoming a member of NATO.

    I have been to Russia, it is fascinating country with a wealth of cultural history and experience, the food is good, the people reasonably friendly -and all of the ones I spoke to loathed Putin and wanted to see him gone. And he will be gone one day, though nobody knows when or who will replace him. Between now and then the opportunity for destructive acts seems limitless, but there must be a way to restrain Russia, for where will all this violence lead us?


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    Last edited by Stavros; 03-14-2018 at 08:14 PM.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Professional Poster peejaye's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko

    Quote Originally Posted by broncofan View Post
    Is Putin allowed to order a hit on a target in Britain and carry it out in a way that threatens a lot of your citizens and not face any consequences?
    No he isn't & there's no proof that he has. I'm not going to keep banging my head against a wall so I won't.



  10. #40
    5 Star Poster sukumvit boy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Curious Case of Alexander Litvinenko

    I guess Theresa May and Parliament found the evidence against a Russian state sponsored hit convincing enough to expel 23 Russian diplomats.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...=.b7d2c2d095ce
    Let us not forget that they tried to kill his daughter too !


    Last edited by sukumvit boy; 03-15-2018 at 02:23 AM.

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