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  1. #101
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    Default Re: Bernie Sanders for President...

    Quote Originally Posted by alreik View Post
    But it is, no one can predict the future, thus making "the strategy" argument almost null, checking your conscience first is everything.
    Not being able to predict events with perfect accuracy is not a reason to avoid considering the likelihood of contingent events. Would you say that Gary Johnson is as likely to become President in 2020 as Donald Trump? It's not empirically knowable, but there is evidence that speaks to likelihood, even if it has a margin of error.


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  2. #102
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    Default Re: Bernie Sanders for President...

    The reason I push back on this point is that the logical extension of your argument is that if I like Gary Johnson the best but see Donald Trump as my second favorite choice then I should vote for Gary Johnson because I have no way of knowing who is more likely to be elected. The same is true if I like Jill Stein best and Hillary second best.


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  3. #103
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    Default Re: Bernie Sanders for President...

    I am speaking from an ideological Pov, about how a structured democracy should work, as in that each individual picks a candidate that they feel is better to run the country, the system nowadays is a far cry from that, and is part of why someone like Trump won in the first place. Taking your pov means that, as a voter in NY I shouldn't bother going, because anyway the Democrats are gonna win, -pragmatically- I'm better off watching TV than voting. Same thing happened to many friends of mine, in what -turned out to be- swing states, eg Wisconsin etc., they live there, saw the signs, but never believed he'll win, and exercised their human and civil right in voting for someone they actually liked, rather than the distatesful probable winners .


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  4. #104
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    Default Re: Bernie Sanders for President...

    Welcome to the forum and I agree with some of what you say here.

    I didn't say one should ONLY base their decision on probabilities. I only said that it can't be irrelevant, because sometimes we know it's very unlikely we get what what we want. If, for instance, there is a .1% chance I get 100% of what I want and a 50% chance I get 85% of what I want, and in that 15% I'm giving up I do not sacrifice something that is crucial to liberty or justice, then I go with the better expected value.

    But I think you're right there are some things we should all feel strongly enough about that we don't sacrifice our principles. For instance, I don't think someone in New York should vote because they think they'll be a deciding vote but because they want to exercise the franchise and think it's their civic duty to do so. So principles matter too. But I'm just not gonna vote for a clunker who has no chance of winning even if I agree with him/her all the way down the line.


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  5. #105
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    Default Re: Bernie Sanders for President...

    Thanks for the welcome.

    I agree totally, I wasn't objecting to that point, just the arrangement of priorities, I said "almost null" not totally, I was just objecting to the priorities Trish stated.

    I honestly believe that if everyone who voted Trump actually employed their conscience rather than let the predictions get to their head, and thought honestly about the good of the country, they wouldn't have gone for him, but he played the upstart outsider well enough, playing on that exact feeling, the Democrats played like they have won already, like it was a foregone conclusion and our poster girl was in anyway, that the numbers and facts etc says we'll win, which is exactly people didn't vote for it, no one likes to think their actions are not their own.

    That's your right and it should be, thanks for the replies


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  6. #106
    Hung Angel Platinum Poster trish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bernie Sanders for President...

    Quote Originally Posted by alreik View Post
    But it is...
    No it isn’t. The voting booth is not a confessional. It has no religious or moral significance. It a place where you vote on practical, public issues. Your vote is private to minimize the chance that it was solicited, forced or bought.

    Quote Originally Posted by alreik View Post
    But it is, no one can predict the future, thus making "the strategy" argument almost null, checking your conscience first is everything.
    Surely you see that Broncofan’s post #101 effectively counters your reply. Your nullity argument is way too general. Were it valid there would be never be any occasion to use strategy, yet mathematicians can show you strategic approaches not only to problems in which initial conditions are known and causation is well understood, but also to situations in which the state of play and the causative mechanisms are known only imperfectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by alreik View Post
    I am speaking from an ideological Pov, about how a structured democracy should work, as in that each individual picks a candidate that they feel is better to run the country, the system nowadays is a far cry from that, and is part of why someone like Trump won in the first place. Taking your pov means that, as a voter in NY I shouldn't bother going, because anyway the Democrats are gonna win, -pragmatically- I'm better off watching TV than voting. Same thing happened to many friends of mine, in what -turned out to be- swing states, eg Wisconsin etc., they live there, saw the signs, but never believed he'll win, and exercised their human and civil right in voting for someone they actually liked, rather than the distatesful probable winners .
    What kind of political structure would we have to have to ensure that if everyone just voted their conscience then we would get a leader who wasn’t a xenophobic, thin-skinned, egomaniac with the vocabulary of a fifth grader? Who would be have to banned from running for office? Who would have to be prevented from voting? There is no such system - although I agree ours could be improved; e.g. if we had no electoral college your vote would count regardless of location.

    In this last election things were pretty damn clear. There was no way and there is no way now to save the purity of your soul: If you didn’t vote for Hillary, then you threw the election to Donald. Hope you like everything he’s doing.

    I agree, it would be nice if we could all just vote our conscience. But that’s not the nature of reality - ever. Voting is important because people’s lives and livelihoods are at stake. There will always be powerful interests vying for our power (the power of the people- given through our vote) and our wealth (our natural resources, and our institutional reserves). We will always have be smart, informed, and vigilant. We will always have to vote with our heads though it be motivated by the heart.

    I would like to join Bronco in welcoming you to the boards. Sorry, if I didn’t agree with your first posts. Here’s to future agreements.


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    Last edited by trish; 05-11-2017 at 10:59 PM.
    "...I no longer believe that people's secrets are defined and communicable, or their feelings full-blown and easy to recognize."_Alice Munro, Chaddeleys and Flemings.

    "...the order in creation which you see is that which you have put there, like a string in a maze, so that you shall not lose your way". _Judge Holden, Cormac McCarthy's, BLOOD MERIDIAN.

  7. #107
    Senior Member Professional Poster gaysian71's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bernie Sanders for President...

    Because of the state of the election results, this has turned out to be an interesting thread. And I must say, if I knew things were going to turn out the way they did. I probably would have changed my party affiliation to Democrat and voted for Bernie. But I voted for Gary Johnson in the hopes that the libertarians could have gotten that all illusive 5% of the vote.

    With that said. We all know that Hillary totally fucked up with that typical negative attention she got with the email server shit. Did she do it? Is she guilty? Who knows. But in the end it was more than likely that typical Clinton bullshit brought her down in the end. But that just seems to be the way that family operates. The only difference between her and her husband is that Bill is far more slippery than Hillary is or ever will be.

    Then there's Donald Trump. What the hell happened there? He somehow managed to get all the poor white trash and the religious right to vote for him. When he first came into the limelight, I thought he was just going to play the court jester and go home after he lost in the primaries. Man, was I wrong. I guess that just goes to prove the power of the Internet and what happens when you get a troll who has mastered the art of trolling. I always thought that trolls were nothing more than someone to laugh at. I guess I learned my lesson.

    Now we have this wonderful tax plan and wonderful Obamacare replacement. Who knows how that will turn out. But I have a feeling it won't be good for the hard working middle class or the poor. But, I can't wait to see the look on the faces of all the dumb fucks that voted for him. They will all still be unemployed and now they won't even have health insurance. Oh well, sucks for them. But at least all the jesus freaks out there will be able to discriminate against this of color and those who happen to be members of the lgbt community. Which by the way. Every guy here is a member by proxy. So if you are truly a Trump supporter. It's best if you stay in the closet and publicly stone a tranny the next time you see one. Anday the rest of you who support both trans and lgbt rights continue to do so. I know I will.

    Oh and lastly. Bernie has it right when it comes to national health care. You absolutely have to take for profit insurance companies out of the equation. As long as there is profit involved with getting health care to everyone. For profit companies cannot participate. Unless of course everyone is willing to allow the USA to become bankrupt and be willing to bow down to the insurance companies corporate execs. At the rate things are going now, one of two things will happen. The insurance companies will bankrupt the country or only healthy people will be allowed to purchase insurance. But that just my opinion.



  8. #108
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    Default Re: Bernie Sanders for President...

    Thanks for the welcome Trish

    I wasn't referring to the booth as a confessional in the literal sense, as neither were you, just that working your conscience first and making proper judgment based on honesty and character evaluation is more important than a call for who is probably gonna win. I am not evaluating conscience as a heart vs mind entity, but a measure of judgment of what's right and wrong, rather than a betting scheme where the priority of voting goes to the highest possible winner.

    Referring to the #101, do you think honestly that anyone who voted Trump did it with heart only?, I met a lot of NYers who are neither religious nuts or white trash etc who secretly supported Trump, just for that reason, freedom from judgment and a ball through the window kind of trolling.

    I voted Bernie first, and went to the booth planning on Jill, but checked my conscience and that last part made me put Hillary, even fully knowing she was gonna steamroll NY. But just in the off chance, no one thought Wisconsin would be a swing state... But it Is a democracy which is what this is all about

    This country should aspire to be more than accepting a cynical reality, no? I am not a hopeless idealist, just know that working to make things better with a clear plan and avoiding same old mistakes are the principles upon which this country is founded.

    Again I hardly disagree -from a practical pov- with anything you stated pertaining to a certain point of time and space, just with the generalized aspect of it, it is always your choice and freedom, not the lesser of two evils, as it should be and as we should aspire it to be, which is why this thread exists, it is what Sanders was working for.

    Thanks, nice quotes by the way


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