Netanyahu today, Netanyahu tomorrow, Netanyahu forever!

[broncofan]

There's someone here who thinks Russia's state owned propaganda arm says exactly what he's thinking a lot of the time.

If there's one news outlet I'd like to rely on for progressive news it's the state media of a country that thinks gay men dedicate their lives to trying to convert children to homosexuality. I bet their news on Russia's annexation of Crimea was fantastic: "what do you mean Russia annexed Crimea? Crimea annexed Russia." I always love seeing videos of their talking heads telling us the latest news on climate change and all the latest in progressive politics. This doesn't belong here, but it made me smile thinking about it.

Edit: Yes I realize I'm talking to myself, but I was trying to inject a little levity at Ben's expense...he's a good-natured guy and doesn't seem to mind. RT is a Russian propaganda outlet isn't it?

[broncofan]

while the Israelis want guarantees that Palestinians will not engage in terrorist/'guerilla' actions like blowing up pizza parlours.

This would be one of the necessary components. The others would be an end to the virtual Arab boycott of the state, the occasional threats to it from Middle Eastern countries, and at least some abatement of the spread of powerful and pernicious anti-semitic propaganda throughout the Middle East. I agree that the onus is on Israel to do justice for the Palestinians and that Netanyahu being elected is an enormous step backwards because he is not a man of peace. That's why I was hopeful some alternative would be elected and I believed up until the election Herzog would be, even though others apparently knew better.

Since Israel is in the Middle East here is a list of aspirations I have if they do the right thing and stop occupying Palestinian land. It would be great if Israel would no longer be accused of orchestrating shark attacks on Egyptian beaches or creating ostensibly Islamic terrorist organizations by copulating with satan.

It would also be nice if the Iranians would be willing to share an Olympic swimming pool with their Zionist competitors (they do not have to be in adjacent lanes). I will point out that those who assume that the antagonism towards Israel will end when a just resolution is achieved that Egypt and Israel have a peace treaty. Can you imagine having a peace treaty with a country who thinks you can telepathically force sharks to attack people? So I hope that craziness can end. I really hope all of these magical beliefs are a product of the unjust treatment of Palestinians and end as soon as there is a Palestinian state.

[Stavros]

This would be one of the necessary components. The others would be an end to the virtual Arab boycott of the state, the occasional threats to it from Middle Eastern countries, and at least some abatement of the spread of powerful and pernicious anti-semitic propaganda throughout the Middle East. I agree that the onus is on Israel to do justice for the Palestinians and that Netanyahu being elected is an enormous step backwards because he is not a man of peace. That's why I was hopeful some alternative would be elected and I believed up until the election Herzog would be, even though others apparently knew better.

Since Israel is in the Middle East here is a list of aspirations I have if they do the right thing and stop occupying Palestinian land. It would be great if Israel would no longer be accused of orchestrating shark attacks on Egyptian beaches or creating ostensibly Islamic terrorist organizations by copulating with satan.

It would also be nice if the Iranians would be willing to share an Olympic swimming pool with their Zionist competitors (they do not have to be in adjacent lanes). I will point out that those who assume that the antagonism towards Israel will end when a just resolution is achieved that Egypt and Israel have a peace treaty. Can you imagine having a peace treaty with a country who thinks you can telepathically force sharks to attack people? So I hope that craziness can end. I really hope all of these magical beliefs are a product of the unjust treatment of Palestinians and end as soon as there is a Palestinian state.

Israel has full diplomatic relations with Egypt, Jordan and Turkey, albeit strained for the usual reasons when something flares up; it would be hard to expect the UAE to have good relations with Israel when undercover agents of Mossad infiltrate the country using British passports to murder Arabs they don't like; Israel has goodish relations with Algeria and Morocco, and is or has been involved in the training of Kurdish Peshmerga guerillas in northern Iraq, while Wikileaks appeared to have documents showing collaboration between Mossad and the intelligence services of Bahrain, where the majority Shi'a population has been viewed by some as a fifth column for Iran in the Gulf region. In the 1960s the USA supported Saudi Arabia in its military conflict with Egypt in the Yemen, and sent arms to support the Saudi effort via Israel, and it is no secret that Israel's position on Iran is not much different from Saudi Arabia's, and indeed the Emirates of the Gulf, although in the long term, Saudi Arabia's ambition is to bring the whole of the Middle East under a Wahab inspired Caliphate, the first attempt to create this taking place with the invasion of TransJordan in 1921. Nevertheless, sometimes when you scratch the surface you find that some Arabs have a grudging respect for Israel.

I think an important perspective on some of the nonsense that comes out the region is needed. The narrative framework of Israel up to 1967 was shaped by Zionism, the political Zionism that was developed in the 19th century by men like Moses Mendelssohn and Theodor Herzl. This stressed the concept of renewal, and was based on the false assumption that Biblical Israel had been abandoned and was not developed or even well populated, an illusion that caused a lot of problems for the first Zionist pioneers when they arrived in the area in 1882. This kind of Zionism was thus heavily based on the restoration of the land, with agriculture at the social and economic base of the new Israel, and collective agriculture in the form of the Moshav or Kibbutz. For some Zionists, the Arabs were never going to be part of the plan, while for others a pragmatic acceptance that Jew and Arab would have to share the land was inevitable. A different narrative emerged after 1967 in which the Zionist framework was replaced by the Holocaust and the existential obsession with the very existence of Israel itself. This is because of the paradox that in 're-uniting' Jerusalem and the Occupied Territories -referred to by Zionists as 'Judea and Samaria'- a Zionist project intended to provide the Jews with a homeland in which they be secure, had in fact increased their insecurity, the occupation providing it with an unmanageable Arab population who, for the most part, hated it.

But for the Arabs this second 'catastrophe' of 1967 (following the Nakbah of 194-eight) seemed to prove that they were utterly incapable of dealing militarily with Israel, and produced a form of cognitive dissonance in which they could not make sense of the glories of Islamic civilisation, their vast oil wealth, their superiority of numbers -but their inferiority in achievement on the battlefield. This is one reason why so much Arab literature on Israel has both diverted attention away from their own failings and ascribed to Israel all sorts of weird extraordinary powers and influences -the Americans, the Rothschilds, the Illuminati, Freemasonry etc etc- to explain Israel's success, rather than their failure. One exception to this was the book the Syrian Marxist thinker Sadiq al-Azm published not long after 1967 -Self-criticism after the defeat, but this was an isolated example, and he spent time in prison for being such a pain in the neck to Hafez al-Asad in particular.

People like Ariel Sharon and Netanyahu have this milked this Holocaust revisionism because it suits their agenda to place Israel on the perpetual edge of extinction, yet it is the very occupation of the West Bank with its perpetual security nightmare that has created this problem, and until this is addressed, the political climate will be poisoned by the privilege given to ideology over practical reality -on all sides. In simple terms, settlement activity, particularly the illegal and provocative actions of Eled, must stop.

[Odelay]

Why does it antagonize Muslims around the world more than mass slaughter against Shiite Muslims and Yazidi Christians? You say that's a local problem.

I'm guessing that what's going on with Assad and separately with ISIS, does indeed bother Muslims around the world. Where did you get from my writings that I assume otherwise?

You are talking about Muslims who are not in the West Bank being antagonized by Israel's actions. They are inflamed because other Muslims are harmed by Jews, but are not inflamed by other Muslims killing Muslims or Christians at equal proximity.

Again, I don't know where you're getting this. I can't see why Muslims would not be emotionally affected by Muslim v Muslim violence, and Jewish v Muslim violence.

And here you are, claiming that when they are inflamed we should be sensitive to it. We should be sensitive to all human rights abuses. Not just when Muslims all around the world feel antagonized by this one issue but not others.

No disagreement with you here.hi

These are your issues that you've repeated in many theads. You are outraged by two things. One, the lack of international reporting on Muslim v Muslim violence, specifically what's going on in Syria. And two, violence in Europe against Jews - some of which is occurring by non-Muslims in Europe against Jews.

I contend these are related and I'm surprised you don't see it. As I contend that I/P conflict is an international issue. And it's not only affecting Muslims but non-Muslims as well. Answer me this, broncofan... when does violence against Jews and Jewish property happen most frequently?

From what I've seen, it happens when Israel takes very specific action against the Palestinian population. Like when they're deemed to be taking disproportionate action against people in Gaza. Or, like, when the leader of Israel says racist things about Palestinians and he states he has no interest in a 2SS. *Boom* Violence against Jews goes up.

To me, that's one of the big examples of evidence of the international nature of the I/P conflict.

You want another example? Look at all the UN votes that are pro-Palestine. Like in Nov 2012 when 138 nations voted for and 9 against. And the "9" is deceiving just like the Dec 2014 Security Council vote where 9 nations voted against Palestinian statehood (7 + US + Israel). Basically, John Kerry worked the phones hard on 7 allies so that the US wouldn't have to use their veto. But the world community sees through all that bullshit. You don't think foreign ministers around the world don't see through Kerry's actions?

The world is plenty aware of the I/P conflict and they've weighed in.

As to the Muslim v Muslim violence? Yes, I believe it's a regional problem. Muslims in Pakistan and Indonesia are probably not going to send troops into Iraq/Syria to defeat ISIS. But Saudi Arabia sure as hell should. And should the US and Europe be involved? Sure, but they should lend support, not lead. US support of a solution in Syria is well represented by John McCain and Lindsey Graham.

So again, I don't know what your true problem is. I do know you have the two pet issues listed above, but you seem to take affront at my positions that coincide with a vocal minority that condemns a lot of Israel's actions.

[Odelay]

Sub-topic: Greatest Threat to World Peace

I keep going back to this quote. What is it that's so compelling about the testimonial of these friends that it can trump common sense and logic? If you heard from as many people that there are dozens of conflicts in the world that also threaten world peace, would you find that as compelling?

I am sure you can talk to a number of people in the Jewish community who would say the proposition that one conflict in West Asia is the biggest obstacle to world peace is preposterous. Would that convince you otherwise (I am aware you can probably find a couple of Jewish opinions to bolster your view and ignore the thousands who think it's a load of nonsense)?

Exactly! This is my opinion that this is the biggest thread to world peace. Not the stated opinion of my Muslim friends. Is my opinion somewhat informed by the anecdotal conversations I've had with my friends? Yes. But that doesn't mean that as an engineer by education, I am projecting my opinion to a majority or even a signficant minority in the world. But I am guessing out of a planet of 8 billion, I'm not alone in my opinion.

Here's a question from me to some of your Jordanian friends: The Jordanian ambassador to Israel explained that it does not allow people to travel to Jordan with any visible signs of Judaism to ensure the safety of their Jewish tourists. So this well-meaning and thoughtful mandate is intended to protect Jewish tourists from suffering serious harm for being identifiably Jewish.

Here's the question: Where on the list of threats to world peace does prohibiting Jewish religious items from entering a country because it might lead to murder rank? Does it rank? Would you be willing to smuggle in a yarmulke and wear it to show that the Jordanians are just being overly-cautious and typically thoughtful? Is the mandate a moderate one or an extreme one?

I don't have any ready opinions of my friends on this issue, only mine. As I stated before, the international nature of the I/P conflict leads me to believe that Israel should be working diligently towards peace and presumably as 2SS. I believe if Israel achieves a peace accord with Palestinians, violence against Jews around the world will lessen. It will be like a pressure relief valve. And maybe some day, Orthodox Jews will be able to freely travel within Jordan.

[Odelay]

Here's a question for you, broncofan.

How many of the civil and regional wars around the world, need to be resolved, before Israel is dutibound to make peace with the Palestinians? Because it sounds like from your stated opinions, some of these conflicts around the war need to be handled first.

[Odelay]

I always wonder whether this is an intentional obfuscation when I see people do this. Do you support a two-state solution Odelay? I know you say you think the creation of Israel was a mistake...but it's a mistake that should remain? Could you elaborate on the mistake...what it means for those who first immigrated to Israel and those still immigrating there? What do your Middle Eastern friends think about the two state solution? Do you hear lots of optimistic platitudes like "I would love to see a Palestinian state living peacefully side by side with a Jewish state...both people deserve the right to self-determination?"

I generally don't read punditry, so no I haven't read Max Blumenthal...

I do support a 2SS, but am not hopeful. Reading Stavros' longer historical pieces actually raises my hope a tiny bit. As to the mistake, I have a couple of comments. First, my view is completely in hindsight, which of course is 20-20. I was a supporter of Israel until around the time that negotiations during Ohlmert's time broke down. It was then that I surmised that there was a big portion of Jewish Israelis that have no interest in a 2SS - not just the nutjobs who were willing to assassinate pro-peace leaders, but big political parties with big #'s of voters.

The mistake can be attributable to two sets of people - the Jewish leaders on the left and in the center that could not persuade the righties to live peaceably with their neighbors. And the second group are Western countries, mainly the US, who have stood with Israel and funneled much military and economic aid to Israel, even when their actions didn't warrant it.

Basically, the West needed to put boundaries - real ones, in fact - around the Zionist project. The fact that Israeli's could not control themselves and the West was not willing to use leverage to encourage better behavior, leads me to believe the original idea was flawed.

- - - - -

Max Blumental is a voice amongst a few in the US leftist intellectual community. I would guess most of this community could care less about being branded anti-semite. I know I don't care. Just because someone would brand me an anti-semite, doesn't mean I promote violence or discrimination against Jews. Unless, of course, the labelers deem that my friendship with Muslims automatically means I promote violence and discrimination. If that's the case, then you got me.