Israel- What is up with these folks?

[blackandblue]

Dear Quinn

Clearly you missed the irony of the statement, "It's written into their 'constitution.’”.

Israel doesn't have a constitution. It has instead a number of 'Basic Laws'.

Maybe you'd like to read some of them....

Israel - Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation 1994

Adopted on: 9 March 1994 }
{ ICL Document Status: 9 March 1994 }

Section 1 Basic principles
Basic human rights in Israel are based on the recognition of the value of the human being, and the sanctity of his life and his freedom, and these will be respected in the spirit of the principles of the Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel (5718-194.

Section 2 Purpose
The purpose of this Basic Law is to uphold the freedom of occupation, in order to anchor the values of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state in a Basic Law.

Section 3 Freedom of occupation
Every Israel national or resident has the right to engage in any occupation, profession or trade.

Section 4 Violation of freedom
There shall be no violation of the freedom of occupation except by a law that accords with the values of the State of Israel, enacted for a proper purpose and to an extent no greater than required, or by such a law enacted with explicit authorization therein.

Section 5 Application
All governmental authorities are bound to respect the freedom of occupation of all Israel nationals and residents.

Section 6 Stability
This Basic Law cannot be varied, suspended or made subject to conditions by emergency regulations.

Section 7 Entrenchment
This Basic Law shall not be varied except by a Basic Law passed by a majority of the members of the Knesset.

Section 8 Validity of exceptional laws
The provisions of any law which are inconsistent with the freedom of occupation shall remain in effect, even if it does not conform with Section 4, if it is included in a law adopted by a majority of the Knesset with the explicit comment that it is valid despite the provisions of this Basic Law; such a law shall remain in effect for four years from the date of its commencement, unless an earlier date is fixed.

Section 9 Repeal
The Basic Law: Freedom of Occupation (5752 - 1992) is hereby repealed.

Section 10 Provisional measure
The provisions of any enactment in force prior to the commencement of this Basic Law or the Basic Law repealed in Section 9, [which are inconsistent with its provisions] shall remain in effect no longer than two years from the date of commencement of this Basic Law, unless repealed sooner; however, such provisions shall be construed in the spirit of the provisions of this Basic Law.

I'll alow you to draw your own conclusions.

What's this? "Even the article you posted a link to is weak in that its author is complaining that Arab political freedoms are being curtailed because they can’t dispute the essentially democratic and Jewish nature of the state of Israel."

You have a habit of ignoring salient points whilst clinging on to irrelevant ones.

The question was asked, "How can a state that defines itself as essentially Jewish also characterize itself as a democracy when it has a sizable non-Jewish minority?"

It's weak in your eyes because you wish it to be so.


Next;

Though the US may not receive the majority of it's oil supply from the Middle East, it depends on security of supply. If there was no cheap oil coming from the Middle East, we would all be scrambling over smaller resources. Maybe then we would all see the true face of America.

"This is why the Europeans (particularly the French and British) and Japanese have worked with the US to shore up so many Middle Eastern regimes."

No argument from me there. In doing so, have created a veritable Hornet's nest.

Israel has a policy of misinformation. I know, for instance, that when a bus load of soldiers is blown up in Israel, it is immediately reported as a bus load of civilians.
Even if the true report comes out later, the damage has already been done.
I've been to Israel. I've sat in restaurant where boys in civilian clothes sit talking to their girlfriends, with rifles hanging from their shoulders.

So, who are the civilians and who are the soldiers.

Israel tried to con us by telling us the Arabs target children, whilst they didn't.
Well we saw that was a lie, after Ariel Sharon inflamed the Arabs in the year 2000.
We know that they discourage reporters and film crews in the refugee camps, so that they can routinely murder, detain and torture at will.
We know that they have targeted and murdered English peace activist Tom Hurndall. We know that they targeted and murdered a British Journalist, James Miller. We know that they target and murder Palestinian journalists.
We know that they show complete disregard for any lives but their own.

They shelled families enjoying their time on a beach. Is that not terror. Murdered them. Hardly a murmur from them. But look at what happens when a soldier is merely snatched. They create all out war.

They like to portray themselves as victims. I know that is not true.

(Be aware that I use the term Israelis in a general way)


Next;

I'm still not quite sure why you are banging on about a Palestinian homeland.

Is that your justification for the Israeli incursion onto someone else's land?


I don't remember posing any questions about a Palestinian homeland.

Maybe you'd like to pinpoint that for me.


I know that you would like to regard this as a debate won.

But consider this, I have begun from a point of refuting your statements.

This in itself seeks only to restore balance, but doesn't go far enough in explaining quite why and how this situation has arisen.


That is why I posted the article on Cactus48. So that people can read and decide for themselves, what they believe is true.

No point in banging on about whether Israel is a democracy or not, when it doesn't address the central issues.
Does being a democracy prevent a country from murdering tens of thousands of innocent people?
We know that it doesn't, so we don't need to waste time discussing these things.

Now, why don't we debate on the Cactus 48 article?

[Quinn]

Blackandblue,

Good natured ribbing aside, I do appreciate both the manner of your presentation and your efforts to support your conclusions, particularly given the weighty nature of the topic at hand. In all seriousness, I would be delighted to continue our debate on Monday (possibly even tomorrow) as this is the first weekend that I am taking any time off in nearly a month. Until then, have a good weekend.

-Quinn

[shemalejunky]

Funny how blackandblue skirts the issue of trying to name an Arab democracy.

Quinn, you nailed it in your first post! Thanks for stating the facts and thanks to all for being an island in the sea of internet anti-Semitism.

Obviously blackand blue will just be that in the face putting forward his lame and baseless arguments when the facts have already been stated. Almost like talking to Aedan!

[suckseed]

http://www.hungangels.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=9724

[blahblahblah]

http://dl.zvuki.ru/2/2644/56/1.ra

[yosi]

just fyi

[chefmike]

Actually...It occurred to me that one of our resident scholars has the big picture all figured out...

http://www.hungangels.com/board/view...t=8302&start=0

http://www.hungangels.com/board/view...t=9436&start=0

[castabyss]

twowaybro,

you can't complain like this,

Wow folks, isnt it just hilarious how when anyone dares question the motives and/or policies of the Israeli government that they r automatically labeled as Arab/Muslim sympathizers and haters of people of the Jewish faith.

and then refer to HA as mostly a "pro-Israel lobby". I don't think there's any lobby here except for more hot TS's. If we're that politicized, I think we should take an official stand in the next elections. The US needs a thrid party to break things up; maybe HA is up to the job!!!!!!

CA

[ezed]

CAPTAIN! CAPTAIN! THINGS ARE GETTING HOT IN THIS REGION! NO ONE THERE IS INTERESTED IN WHAT THE FUCK THE OTHER HAS TO SAY. THEY'RE ALL A BUNCH OF FANATICS WITH NO OUTSIDE INTERESTS FOR THEIR OWN ENTERTAINMENT! IT'S A RELIGIOUS THING OR SOMETHING, IT'S LIKE THE WORLD'S GONE RETARDED AND IT'S ESCALATING! IF NORMAL PEOPLE DON'T STEP UP THE WHOLE THING'S GOING TO BLOOWWW!

[dav1313]

Everyone seems to miss the big underlying issue in the palestinian isreali conflict. It's unemployment. This goes for pretty much the entire islam v west conflict. the economies in arab countries are shit, unemployment runs over 25 percent and up to 70 percent . Young males are prone to violence and attracted to extreme groups when they are otherwise unoccupied., just look at germany in the 1930's. the arabs have no jobs, no prospect of a job or future and so they are understandably angry. the hard line clerics give them a purpose and something to look foward to, (paradise). people who have jobs arent throwing rocks or burning american flags.