Israel- What is up with these folks?

[blackandblue]

That Rupert Murdoch is happy to support whoever agrees to support him.

[twowaybro]

J, keep talking my man. 4 the more u talk the more u expose 2 all here the racist and idiot that u r. And that u speak from emotion and not reason and intellect and accurate historical data. "All arabs and muslims are animals"....this is ur belief irregardless of the Israel argument. Just b honest.

[Quinn]

Goodness me! I would have to go a long way to read such rubbish! All the way to the 'Good ole USA'.

Interesting way to begin a debate. That said, allow me to respond to your selective, ahistorical interpretation of the facts.

Arab citizens of Israel, who makeup roughly 20 percent of its population, have more rights and greater representation (Arab Democratic Party, etc.) in the Jewish state than they do under any Arab regime. Note. I’m not talking about non-Israeli citizens in Gaza and the West Bank."

What does this mean exactly?

Here's another take on the situation;
Founded in 1988 by Abdel Wahab Daroushe, a former Labor Party Knesset member, the Arab Democratic Party (ADP) won one seat in 1988 Knesset elections and 2 in the 1992 elections. Its platform focuses on achievement of full equality for Israeli Arabs and on full Israeli withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, as well as the establishment of a Palestinian state. In 1996 and 1999, Daroushe agreed to participate in a joint electoral list with Islamic groups.

In other words, Israeli Arabs are not considered equal to Israeli Jews in Israel. It's written into their 'constitution'.

The Arab Democratic Party was used as a single example of the fact that Arabs have more rights in a Jewish state than they do in any of their own nations. Regarding this, Wikipedia states the following:

Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel, with equal protection under the law, and full rights of due process. Unlike Jewish citizens, they cannot be drafted into the Israeli army, but they may serve voluntarily. There are currently nine Israeli Arabs sitting as members of the 17th Knesset out of a total of 120 seats, and there is one Arab judge, Justice Salim Jubran, sitting in the Supreme Court of Israel. Ariel Sharon's 2001 cabinet included one Israeli Arab minister, Salah Tarif, and in March 2005, Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior. Arabic is one of Israel's official languages.

Israel is, and has long been, the only true democracy in the Middle East.

If the Israeli Arabs are not considered equal, it is not a "True Democracy" Full stop.

First off, your inability to name a single Arab or Middle Eastern democracy, outside of Israel, is duly noted. Second, given that your previous point, upon which this point depends, has been proven a farce, I think we can just disregard this one as well.

There are more new books published each year in the tiny state of Israel than the rest of the Middle East combined. This shows you the cultural difference between what is produced in the region's only democracy and its ubiquitous authoritarian regimes."

It is entirely possible that if the Arab countries were not kept in a constant stae of turmoil by certain western countries in cahoots with 'Israel', they could use their resources elsewhere.
But Israel and the USA love to develop and sell weapons.

This point is so ridiculously uninformed that, frankly, I’m not entirely sure how to respond. To being with, the US, to its own discredit, is responsible for shoring up the Gulf Monarchies, Turkey, and Egypt, to name but a few Middle Eastern states. While the US has acted to destabilize states like Lebanon (until recently a Syrian client state), Syria, and Iran, the US (and the West as a whole) has done far more to keep regimes intact and their economies functioning than it has ever done to cause the opposite. Otherwise, we would be threatening the oil upon which Japan and Europe are particularly dependent (much more so than the US).

Palestine means "Land of the Philistines." The Philistines were a colony of Mycenean Greeks who fought against the ancient Israelites. The Philistines are no longer there, the people of Israel still are (despite the occasional deportation). In fact, their presence in the region predates by a substantial time period both Islam and anything that could be considered a recognizable Arab culture – at least in the sense of the word "Arab" as we know it today.

What has this got to do with anything?

You're conveniently forgetting to mention how the state of Israel was created by terrorism. Yes, Menachem Begin was a terrorist. Do a Google search if you don't believe me.
A Jewish minority was transformed into a Jewish majority. I don't know of too many people who would tolerate that situation.

What does this have to do with anything? The Arab world frequently claims that the Arabs have a historical right to that land and that the Israelis are simply invaders. As previously noted, the fact is that the people of Israel resided there long before there was ever such a thing as a Muslim or an Arab (in the modern sense of the word). Giving a minority population the right to settle a small parcel of land on which it has both a historical claim and presence is not unreasonable or without international precedent.

So far as early terrorist activities by Israel’s founders are concerned, the activities of the Haganah are well known and not a matter of dispute. They don’t get a pass for it. It is, however, important to note that the Haganah’s terrorist activities were overwhelmingly directed at the British military, not civilians.

As previously noted, today’s Palestinians are mostly Egyptians and Jordanians, not a culturally distinct people. Still, if you really want to look for a “Palestinian State,” you don’t need to look any further than Jordan, a state with a 70% Palestinian population"

If those figures are correct, could that be something to do with the fact that Jordan absorbed a substantial amount of the people fleeing from Israeli terrorism?

Again, look at the facts;
"Since the return of over 300,000 Palestinians from Kuwait in 1991, between 45% and 70% of all Jordanians are Palestinians from the West Bank. Although Palestinians suffer from discrimination and a large number still live in camps, Jordan has granted full citizenship to the Palestinian refugees and their descendents."
"About 3 million persons registered as Palestinian refugees and displaced persons reside in Jordan, most as citizens."

So what is Quinn's point? .

So far as the accuracy of the figure is concerned, the most reliable number is 70%. I can cite many supporting sources, but for now let’s stick to just one:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...57C0A961958260.

As for my point, once again, you seem slow on the uptake. The widely held Arab view that the Palestinians don’t have a homeland is false. If you don’t believe me, why not listen to the late King Hussein:

"Palestine and Jordan were both (by then) under British Mandate, but as my grandfather pointed out in his memoirs, they were hardly separate countries. Transjordan being to the east of the River Jordan, it formed in a sense, the interior of Palestine."
-King Hussein, writing in his Memoirs

In the last ten or so years, Israel has gone to great lengths to make peace with its aggressive neighbors:

A. Under Ehud Barak, Arafat and the Palestinians were offered peace on the terms that they had long claimed would be necessary for a lasting peace with Israel. Despite this, Arafat refused peace. When asked by then President Clinton “how he could be so stupid,” Arafat is reported to have replied “I can’t; they’ll kill me.” He was referring to small hard line elements within his own party who wanted the conflict to continue indefinitely, not matter what terms were offered".

This just pure cr*p.

An excerpt from Wikipedia;
"Clayton Swisher, who was present at the summit, rebuts the conventional wisdom about it in The Truth About Camp David (http://www.lewrockwell.com/wanniski/wanniski36.html). Swisher, a young scholar based in Washington, attempts to approach Camp David objectively and concludes that the Israelis and the Americans were at least as guilty as the Palestinians for the collapse. MJ Rosenberg of Israel Policy Forum, a pro-Israel think-tank in Washington, calls Swisher's book "the single best volume we are likely to have on the Camp David failure." Alternative points of view are offered in books by Dennis Ross and by President Clinton himself. Ross and Clinton, who were also both in attendance, place the blame largely on Arafat." .

To begin with, the fact that you didn’t even attempt to refute the other two widely accepted points is quite telling. So far as your rebuttal to point A is concerned, the fact that you chose to use such poorly supported data – in the face of overwhelming proof to the contrary – reveals your own degree of bias. By any measure, the concessions offered by Israel were tremendous. The incentives offered by the Clinton Administration to induce Arafat to sign were similarly generous. What did Arafat offer? Nothing! His continued demand for “the right of return” would have meant the destruction of Israel. Everyone, including many Arabs, saw it as little more than a ploy to scuttle the talks. Even Nabil Amir, a former minister with the Palestinian Authority blames Arafat for the failure of the talks. Trust me, you really don't want to get into any debate that would require you to defend the criminal ineptitude of Arafat's leaderhip; you will loose – badly.

Yes, I signed up just to reply to Quinn post. Personally, I found it disgusting.

So far as any degree of disgust on your part is concerned, I suggest you reserve it for consideration of your own biased and uninformed point of view. Oh, and just so you know, no one is stating that Israel is completely blameless or that it, as a state, has not committed transgressions of its own (allowing the Sabra and Shatila massacres, etc.). Still, given a choice between a vibrant democracy and a sea of authoritarian (and often fundamentalist) regimes, there is no choice. If you don’t agree, try spending some time in the Middle East, particularly in the Arab states.

-Quinn

P.S. My apologies to everyone for such an incredibly long post, but there just wasn't any more succinct way to make my point.

[chefmike]

obviously im speaking emotionally and trying to make a point...yes, ur right there are some decent, cultured and civil muslims, but by and large theyre overshadowed by the majority of muslims who wouldnt shed a tear if another 6 million were killed...bottom line u have a billion muslims and a few million jews, now take the education level, inventions, arts, everything that these 2 cultures have contributed through out history, it would be a joke to compare them...there is a reason for that no? u cant blame the state of israel for the laughable comparison...its very simple...on one side u have people hell bent on educating their children, promoting justice throughout the world, being a vibrant and cultured people, while the other side is just a fuckin mess..theres no nice way to say it..be honest...u cant blame jews for all the worlds problems..its been done through out history...theres a reason why mlk jr walked to the podium with rabbis accompanying him and not sheiks, theres a reason why every philanthropic organization in the world has jews on its board..why the aclu, regardless of what u think of them, is littered with jews, cmon now..i feel retarded arguing the point...u must be such a rabid anti semite to not see who is right and who is wrong in the middle east...be honest, are u late on ur rent and ur jewish landlord is evicting u? it really seems like it...does it kill u that my grandparents had their entire families wiped out half a century ago, survived, struggled, my dad came to this country with 200 bucks in his pocket yet i went through law school and all my brother and sisters own busineses and million dollar homes...does it kill u???? we didnt get any special dispensation or privilages in this country...nothing..we sturggled, faced discrimination and fought through it and made it...stop blaming people for the problems of the world...look inward...islam is a hatefilled unprogressive backwards system of living that keeps its populace in the dark...how the fuck u expect a civilization to flourish if the women are in beekeeper suits and the whole moral fabric of society is still in the dark ages...cmon...just be fuckin honest, u dont like jews...not many people do...sometimes i dont...but be fuckin honest...israel is half a century old and leading the world in many technology areas and like i said tel aviv is something unrivaled in the middle east with all the fuckin oil, money and people to put it to shame...but theres a reason wh yisraelis drive mercedes, go to the nicest lounges in the world and are a striving people while the billion arabs around them fuck camels...yeah, they do it cause israel is occumpying land....before 1948 they were all in labs, discovring cures for cancer and just living it up..hell u should see how gorgeous the area was before the jews showed up...haha...u fool

Brilliant post, J...while I can understand why, and how great the need is for the law that you once mentioned that you currently practice...I bet that you would make one hell of a defense attorney...or prosecutor for that matter...

EDIT- I think that it's a given that the neocon chickenhawks in the whitehouse will use this as a smokescreen/justification for the fiasco in Iraq...when they should have been focusing on Iran and N Korea, not to mention China...

[blackandblue]

Thanks for your reply, Quinn.

Dear, oh dear, J is not covering himself in glory is he? What an embarrassment.

Anyway, back to the debate.

"Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel, with equal protection under the law, and full rights of due process."

That might be the 'official' policy.

Please read this; http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/...sraeliarab.htm


Why do I need to name an Arab democracy? Does it justify Israeli actions?


"Otherwise, we would be threatening the oil upon which Japan and Europe are particularly dependent (much more so than the US)."

Clearly you are joking. See how you'd suffer if you had to pay European prices.
The US is happy with anyone who supports it's policies and will do anything to sabotage those that do not.

"So far as early terrorist activities by Israel’s founders are concerned, the activities of the Haganah are well known and not a matter of dispute. They don’t get a pass for it. It is, however, important to note that the Haganah’s terrorist activities were overwhelmingly directed at the British military, not civilians. "




The bombing of the King David Hotel in Palestine on July 22, 1946, which killed 91 persons (mostly civilians) was an Irgun operation in which the Haganah participated.


I'm not quite sure why you are banging on about a Palestinian homeland.
My point is that the population is swelled by millions of refugees. Those refugees have been given Jordanian citizenship. so they are Jordanians. What is your point?


"ineptitude of Arafat's leaderhip; you will loose – badly. " What?

Anyway, I didn't address the other two points because I felt that I had already made my point.

I can take a look at them now if you like.


C.
"Syria had long claimed that if Israel would return the Golan Heights, it would make peace with Israel. Once again, under Ehud Barak, Israel offered the return of the Golan Heights. The Syrians countered by stating that, not only did they want the return of all of their original land, but they also wanted new land that Syria had never owned. Not surprisingly, peace talks broke down."


That's not quite the case. Israel wanted to offer most of the Golan Heights, Syria wanted Israel to draw back to the 1967 borders.(Remember that this is land illegally occupied by Israel)


How would you feel if Canada grabbed the state of Washington and then offered you half of it back on condition that you shut up about it?

You'd capitulate quietly would you?


B.

I don't know that much about Hizbollah, but it's good that the Israelis don't have it all their own way.

They would like everyone to stay quiet while they commit illegality after illegality.

I'm happy that you mention that Israel is not blameless.

Maybe you can make a point of mentioning the large number of UN Security Council resolutions against Israel?

The illegal occupation of land contrary to the terms of the Laws of war, such as the Fourth Geneva Convention?

Either way, I do appreciate your attempts at having a debate. More so than the ridiculous rantings of J and his ilk.

[blackandblue]

J

Obviously, the ability to read isn't one of your strong points.

The first line of Quinn's post reads; "Interesting way to begin a debate. That said, allow me to respond to your selective, ahistorical interpretation of the facts."


Please refrain from aligning yourself with Quinn. At least he attempts to put together a cogent argument.

We may disagree, but he appears to believe in what he writes and at least takes the time and trouble to post clearly and link to sources, at least on occasion.

Your post reminds me of a chimpanzee who has been taught to write.

Resident Ballbuster? More like Resident Idiot.

[blackandblue]

No, it's because what is considered intelligent for a Chimpanzee, isn't considered intelligent for humans.

You appear to have the intelligence of a Chimpanzee.

Chimpanzees, at least, have the redeeming feature of appearing cute and likeable.


If you like anything like the personality you project.....

[blackandblue]

Anyway...time to move on. Only joined as I couldn't let what was written go unchallenged.
Anyone who's interested in in the subject, can check out the cactus48 link that I posted earlier.

So far no one has challenged the articles on partiality or accuracy.
So, it may be a good place to start.

[Quinn]

Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel, with equal protection under the law, and full rights of due process.

That might be the 'official' policy.

First, you state that “Israeli Arabs are not considered equal to Israeli Jews in Israel. It's written into their 'constitution.’” Now that this has been exposed for the complete falsehood that it is, you want to fall back upon some argument about a theorized unofficial policy – for which you provide scant evidence. Even the article you posted a link to is weak in that its author is complaining that Arab political freedoms are being curtailed because they can’t dispute the essentially democratic and Jewish nature of the state of Israel. So what, they should be allowed to set up an Arab Islamic theocracy in the state of Israel? It’s a ridiculous argument to cover for the fact that your last one so utterly failed.

Once again, my original point stands: Arab citizens of Israel . . . have more rights and greater representation in the Jewish state than they do under any Arab regime.

Otherwise, we would be threatening the oil upon which Japan and Europe are particularly dependent (much more so than the US)."

Clearly you are joking. See how you'd suffer if you had to pay European prices.
The US is happy with anyone who supports it's policies and will do anything to sabotage those that do not.

Fact: Europe and Japan depend upon the Middle East for their oil to a much greater degree than the US (Only 10% of US oil comes from the Persian Gulf, versus 30% of European oil and 80-90% of Japanese oil). This is why the Europeans (particularly the French and British) and Japanese have worked with the US to shore up so many Middle Eastern regimes. Oh, and for what it’s worth, Europeans pay higher prices for their gas because of taxes imposed by their respective governments.

So far as early terrorist activities by Israel’s founders are concerned, the activities of the Haganah are well known and not a matter of dispute. They don’t get a pass for it. It is, however, important to note that the Haganah’s terrorist activities were overwhelmingly directed at the British military, not civilians. "

The bombing of the King David Hotel in Palestine on July 22, 1946, which killed 91 persons (mostly civilians) was an Irgun operation in which the Haganah participated.

Once again, neither condoned nor disputed. What also remains undisputed is the fact that the vast majority of the Haganah’s activities were directed against the British military, not civilians. This incident is widely regarded as an exception, not the rule. This stands into direct contrast to a group like Hamas.

I'm not quite sure why you are banging on about a Palestinian homeland. My point is that the population is swelled by millions of refugees. Those refugees have been given Jordanian citizenship. so they are Jordanians. What is your point?

My point was clearly explained and was then elaborated upon based on a question you posed. If you still don’t get it, perhaps some sort of diagram involving the use of stick figures is in order.

Syria had long claimed that if Israel would return the Golan Heights, it would make peace with Israel. Once again, under Ehud Barak, Israel offered the return of the Golan Heights. The Syrians countered by stating that, not only did they want the return of all of their original land, but they also wanted new land that Syria had never owned. Not surprisingly, peace talks broke down."

That's not quite the case. Israel wanted to offer most of the Golan Heights, Syria wanted Israel to draw back to the 1967 borders.(Remember that this is land illegally occupied by Israel)

The adjective “most” is correct. However, nobody regards Israel’s request for an early warning station to be posted on Mount Hermon as unreasonable, particularly given Syria’s history of launching surprise attacks from that geographic locale. Israel’s request for a security zone around the Lake of Tiberias (150 meters wide) was, given Syria’s history of intentionally disrupting the lake’s flow into Israel, similarly reasonable. Over time (remember these negotiations took place during the existence of several different administrations), Syria has asked for a number of concessions, some reasonable, some unreasonable. My favorite was when Syrian negotiators took the position that the borders should be drawn according to the farthest point that Syria’s artillery was able to reach. Hey, what’s a twelve to twenty mile wide swath of territory between friends.

Regarding the legality of Israel’s occupation of the Golan Heights, it’s a mixed bag. Israeli settlements there are clearly illegal. Israel’s occupation of Syrian land is, in the absence of a peace treaty, legal. Any outright annexation, not backed up by a multilateral treaty, would be illegal.

I don't know that much about Hizbollah, but it's good that the Israelis don't have it all their own way.

They would like everyone to stay quiet while they commit illegality after illegality.

Take time to read about Hezbollah and its conflict with Israel. You will find that Hezbollah has less justification for its continued aggression against Israel than any Arab faction. These days, Hezbollah is little more than a proxy army for Iran and Syria, both of whom are incapable of challenging Israel directly in a conventional military conflict.

So far as any discussion of legal matters is concerned, I can find just as many violations of international law on the part of the Arabs as you can by Israel – if not more.

In the end, J is quite right, this hasn’t been a debate. You’ve failed to adequately support the majority of your own points, let alone effectively challenged my own. Then again, given the weakness that any moderately objective analysis of the facts lends to the Arab position, this is understandable. For now, I am done as well, feeling quite comfortable that the weakness of your arguments has substantially reinforced the validity of my original points.

-Quinn

[twowaybro]

Wow folks, isnt it just hilarious how when anyone dares question the motives and/or policies of the Israeli government that they r automatically labeled as Arab/Muslim sympathizers and haters of people of the Jewish faith. Wow J...get a grip. That's some real psychologically f'd up stuff. And yes, while European Jews were persucuted at the hands of other Europeans and were victims of a terrible holocaust they r not the only ones in history 2 suffer a great calamity. African people, during the Middle Passage alone, saw millions of their ilk kidnapped/sold, killed, molested, raped and made 2 suffer all manner of brutal injustices over a much longer period of time. Denied the right 2 have families, to read, write and become educated. To pursue the "American Dream". And yet we press on and overcome. So spare me the pity party. Yes, the people of the Jewish faith have made great strides in the liberal arts and sciences and have contributed all manner of good things 2 world civilization but they r not the only ones nor the first. People of the Muslim faith, the Bhudist faith, the Hindu faith, the Christian faith, indigenous beliefs, pagans, agnostics and athiests all have contributed 2 the evolution/advancement of the human family in one way or another over the course of history. And most have also committed atrocities. Study world history more closely my man and dont get so carried away with emotions that u have 2 resort 2 name calling and negative characterizations. If u r indeed a lawyer then u should understand the rules of proper discourse.

As previously noted, the fact is that the people of Israel resided there long before there was ever such a thing as a Muslim or an Arab (in the modern sense of the word). Giving a minority population the right to settle a small parcel of land on which it has both a historical claim and presence is not unreasonable or without international precedent.

Quinn, the historical Hebrew Israelites who "settled"(this is debatable) in what was then called Canaan and the European Jews who currently argue a historical claim r not one and the same. Their argument is not based on archeological, anthropological or historic data but more so on socio-religious documents. Biblical myths. If u can seperate urself from the Judeo-Christian frame of mind 4 just a second and study an accurate and unbiased history of the region then this u would c. Actually, both Jews and Arabs r relatively newcomers to that land. But i'll leave that alone as it is not really that germain to the current situation at hand. How is invading unannounced a sovereign nation in pursuit of a "rogue" segment of that nation's society and not openly declaring war with said nation within the rules of international law? How can this been seen in any other light than outright agression? There r clear procedures for declaring war against any nation that threatens the national security of another. Why wasnt this done? Is this Israels' version of the "art of preemption"? If the Cuban government were 2 hurl bombs n2 Miami in pursuit of Cuban exiles harboured here who continually violate Cuban airspace and threaten its society, how would this been seen by the U.S. and the world? Would it not b seen as an illegal and overt act of agression and a threat 2 our national security? The UN security council would immediately order the Cubans 2 cease and desist and probably look 2 impose sanctions. Anyone not wearing blinders can clearly c there is a double standard at play here. The world is doing the people of Lebanon a grave injustice by not putting all the pressure needed on Israel 2 cease and desist this invasion or legally go through the proper channels and declare war.