Israel- What is up with these folks?

[suckseed]

I have learned more about this situation in the past 24 hours than my entire life. Thank you guys. I'm ashamed of myself for not checking into this earlier. I guess I tend to be dismissive of long-standing cultural differences because I think fighting over them is stupid. But if what you guys are saying is true, then Israel has a legitimacy I've never understood. So, what is the thinking on, again, what percentage of the Arabs are hard-liners? And what are some sources you trust to get your information for those of us who'd like to be informed?

[blackandblue]

If you are serious suckseed, I can assure you that the one-sided rantings of some of the posters here are purely a 'comic book' or 'Fox News' version of history.

The Cactus48 link I have provided will give you a overview of the situation.

[gbert52]

I heartily agree with you Quinn, & you B&B, are the one buying into the propaganda. You can nitpick any of Quinns line items, but by & large, they are correct.
The israeli arabs do have more rights than arabs in any arab country,
Israel is way closer to a true democracy than any other arab country,
your garbage about all the arab countries being kept in a constant state of turmoil is just idiotic,
the state of Israel was not created by terrorism- please learn your history
Yes, Israel HAS gone to great lengths to try to secure peace and each & every time, the peace has been interrupted by the Arabs- it's their clear & stated goal to wipe Isreal off the face of the map

I'd also like to add that what is also clear is that the arab leaders in all arab countries are purposely fanning the fires of hatred of Israel. That way they can keep the man on the street uneducated, poor and completely under their control. They are succeeding quite well.

[blackandblue]

Dear gbert52

Just because you have repeated, 'parrot fashion' what Quinn had written, doesn't make it correct.

Rather than simply repeating inaccuracies, why not post the sources to your information, as I have done?

I can guarantee that you did not read any of the Cactus48 article that I posted.

Now why wouldn't you do so? Could it be that you think that you know everything about the conflict or is it that you are incapable of reading and analyzing new information.

Please, quote your sources.

As an aside, I know many people from the UAE are doing quite nicely thank you. They certainly are not treated as second class citizens as they are in Israel.

[suckseed]

well, I guess I'm the 'man in the street' here in the US. Fairly apolitical. Buying into the idea that 'to withdraw in disgust is not the same as apathy.' I voted Nader/Laduke a few years ago, and spent my youthful energy campaigning for environmental issues when I lived in Colorado. I don't identify myself with any political affiliation. I don't want to date Hilary or Ann Colter.
I'd like to ask those who've been active on this thread whether they feel they've come to their understanding of the situation reasonably open-minded to begin with.
If I have any communication skills, it's that I try to put things in plain terms, and see both sides of a situation.
B & B's points have taken the wind out my sails a bit about feeling like I understand. I'm going to actually research this on my own. I'll post here later with questions. Hopefully there are at least things that can be verified. Otherwise, if it's going to remain a matter of opinion like religious debates, I'm going back to playing my guitar.

[twowaybro]

Aight, i c that HA has a large pro-Israel following and thats cool...im more than comfortable being in the minority and on the side of right. And "right" in this instance is not being pro-palestinian but pro-truth. Most of the stated "facts" above r very much uninformed and full of half-truths. Nothing but the regirgitated party line sung in the West 2 legitimize a grave injustice and illegal occupation. The first thing that must b understood when viewing this issue is that this modern zionist "state" of Israel was thrust upon this region using a biblical myth and a need 4 a common homeland and an escape from oppression as it's justification. Wave upon wave of foreigners migrating there setting up camp with a profoundly different cultural/philosophical worldview. And from the very onset, looked at and treated the inhabitants they found there, be they "palestinians", jordanians, egyptians, arabs or whatever, with disdain and animosity. Originally they were offered the Congo as a homeland and i thank The Supreme Being 2 this day that this didnt happen. The Congo would have experienced yet another ruthless and brutal colonizer. When virtually the whole world(including the US) had imposed sanctions on the brutal South African Aparthied regime the Zionist government of Israel was one of the few who continued 2 do business and offer economic and military support 2 that government. So, we can readily deduce from that what would have happened had they accepted the offer of land in the Congo. When analyzing a problem one must try and resolve/understand its origin/genesis. Get 2 the root. Anything acquired through force and injustice must in essence tip the karmic scales 2 where one reaps the same force and injustice that one has sown. A simple law. Cause and effect. To look at one's responce 2 overt oppression in the face of overwhelming military and economic superiority and call it the action of "terrorists" and "animals" is seeing reality through clouded glasses. Power concedes nothing without a demand. And let us not 4get that ur "founding fathers" were once seen in the same light by their former colonizers. Bottom line....Israel from its illegal inception has violated international law and the human rights of those they encountered in that region. THEY set the stage 4 this continuing cycle of violence. And no, im not "anti-semitic"...i have lively debates with friends and co-workers of the Jewish faith all the time; however, there is a distinct difference between Judaism and the people of the Jewish faith and the Zionists who control the Israeli government and its geo-strategic policies. And those policies r about 2 open up a deadly and perilous can of worms 4 that region and the world. How sad and tragic this whole thing is 2 witness. At the end of the day as someone intimated above it is all about control of resources and the vast energy reserves of that region. And i still feel that this current violence is aimed at provoking Iran through attacking Hezbollah and threatening Syria and not about Israeli self defence. Believe me Hezbollah and the Palestinians in Gaza have nowhere near the capacity or capability of seriously threatening Israel as a nation. Thats a joke. No, they have their eyes on a much bigger perceived threat in Iran. So, yes, im in the minority here but this is how i c it and i believe justly so. And to J....3way?..hahaha...not hardly son, u and noone else has ripped nothing here.

[blackandblue]

Who would agree with my definition of an intelligent person as someone who accepts the possibility that he/she could be wrong?

Surely the people who think they have the definitive story are closer to the definition of fools?

I think there's a possibility that either someone has swallowed the clever propaganda, is stupidly racist or is just stupid, in order to believe the Israelis are simply victims of undeserved Arab hostility.

So please, instead of 'sound bites', read the Cactus48 article and then come back with comment.

At least then we can have an intelligent debate.

[gbert52]

Dear B&B,

Once again you're wrong. I did read a good chunk of the Cactus 48 article. Nothing particularly new here. As far as quoting my sources, I'm not going to spend umteen hours looking up sources for you. Documentation to argue any side you'd like is readily available. Just look at your documentation.
Might I suggest that the people you know from the UAE are part of the problem, not the solution. As a westerner, try walking down a street in Egypt. You'll have a following of beggars in no time.

[twowaybro]

Black and Blue,
Thanks 4 posting that Cactus48 link...but in this environment i doubt it will do much good. Most folks opinions r already made up and heavily influenced by the pro-israel corporate media.

[blackandblue]

Dear gbert52

Either you are a very busy person or that was a very poor attempt at a debate.

Allow me to quote you; "Nothing particularly new here"

May I suggest that history isn't supposed to be new?

The point was to read it, point out what you disagreed with and why you disagreed with it.
In addition, posting your sources would allow the reader to ascertain the likelyhood of bias.

It's interesting that you point out that there are sides.
In fact, I am only interested in the truth. Are you?

As to your other comments; What have beggars in Egypt got to do with the UAE? The word is 'Umpteen'.