Israel- What is up with these folks?

[interestedParty]

Reading some of the posts in this thread is like listening to an adolescent child argue with his parents about why he can't smoke pot.


Child: "Why can't I smoke weed? You smoked it before!."

Parent: "Because I don't want to see you make the same mistakes I did!"


Child: "Grandma told me one time you got high and got into a fight! So if you can do it, I should be able to, too. FAIR IS FAIR"

Parent: "I haven't gotten high in years! I was a stupid kid."





It's the same thing, except on this board we're dealing with what appears to be adults that never grew up.

The logic that Iran should be allowed to acquire WMD's because America has em and "Fair is fair", is just plain naive.

Well said. Although I wouldn't have used the marijuana analogy (I don't really think marijuana should be illegal).

[interestedParty]

And that's it, i will not discuss this topic any more.

Only a person who knows he has lost the argument declares that he "will not discuss this topic any more."

[interestedParty]

Oh, its quite obvious that both sides exploit children but the Israeli side is rarely shown...u can bet that these photos will never b shown on/in any major American media. And thats unfortunate as this is the way that most people form their views.

Moot point.

The fact that the second set of photos, the ones of the Palestinian children dressed up as suicide-bombers, are widely seen throughout the Palestinian and Arab world-community, and meet with approval from the militant factions thereof (at least that's what all the evidence I've seen tells me; if you have evidence that indicates the opposite to be true, then, by all means, show me) does said factions no credit.

[blahblahblah]

I'm bored today so i have to:

in this election 48% of the electorate, myself included, voted AGAINST Bush, and even then there are many in this country who believe that this percentage would have been higher if not for the unscrupulous actions of the GOP in Ohio and Florida.

This is interesting, isn't it? Indirectly, you also claim here that your country is a kind of uncivilized... Stealing or manipulating the votes is something that only belongs to uncivilized, non- or half-democratic countries, right?

So, to confuse the actions of this administration in particular with the will of the American people is an insult to every American.

Well, you elected that cowboy twice (two times), so that's something that must be the will of the people.. Or, maybe someone stole the votes 2 times? In such case, this becomes a kind of tradition.. Are you on the way to become god damned russia, or something?

[Jamie Michelle]

Talking about training a new generation 2 hate...this is sick.

http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/

You are right; that is sick. However, so far as any consideration of moral equivalence goes in regard to "training a new generation to hate," there is nothing quite like actually training children to be suicide bombers and then using them as such – something that Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the PFLP have all done (and that's according to non-Israeli government sources like the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group).

-Quinn

Most, if not all, of the so-called Arab "suicide bombers" in Palestine (i.e., so-called "Israel") are simply bombs that the Israeli government planted itself in order to claim a so-called "suicide attack" as a pretext for its continuing genocide against the native inhabitants.

If the notion of that should seem hard to believe, let us just consider what the Israeli government does to its "own" Jews--Jewish children, at that. There is the case of the 100,000-plus so-called "ringworm children," who were Sephardi children that, during the 1950s, the Israeli government irradiated with 35,000 times the maximum safe life-exposure dose of X-rays through their heads (i.e., all of them got this same dose). The U.S. government paid the Israeli government today's equivalent of 50 billion U.S. dollars to conduct these radiation experiments, even though the ill effects of massive doses of X-rays were well-known since the 1920s, and even though the actual radiation experiments only cost about a million dollars (in other words, the rest of the money was simply a payoff to the Israeli government by the U.S. government for it conducting these radiation tests). The Israeli government called them "ringworm children" as a pretext to massively irradiate their skulls, even though almost all of them were perfectly heathly. Many of the children died within a few days of the radiation exposer, with virtually all the rest being left with brain-damage and/or cancers. Most of the so-called "ringworm children" are now dead, having died early deaths from the lifelong complications that resulted from their massive irradiation.

See also:

"50 years on, Lavon Affair still sparks public debate in Israel," Dan Baron, Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA), July 20, 2004:

http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.a...riles%20Israel

http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/a...alavon0720.txt

PrisonPlanet.com News Archive: Israeli Roots of Hamas:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/archives_hamas.html

"Puppet On A String: Hamas Dances To Israel's Tune" by Paul Joseph Watson:

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/puppet_on_a_string.html

"9/11 and Anthrax: FRAMING ARABS," WhatReallyHappened.com:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/framingarabs.html

"Tracking the 19 Hijackers--What are they up to now?--At least 9 of them survived 9/11," WelfareState.com:

http://www.welfarestate.com/911/

http://web.archive.org/web/200212080...state.com/911/

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache...state.com/911/

"Extreme Right: Spark intifada to prevent expulsions," Efrat Weiss, Yedioth Ahronoth, June 14, 2006:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...263038,00.html

"Israeli agents accused of creating fake al-Qaeda cell," Sophie Claudet, Agence France-Presse (AFP), December 9, 2002:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...950271656.html

"The Phony (Mossad) Al Qaeda Cell in Palestine," WhatReallyHappened.com:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakealqaeda.html

"Mossad Exposed in Phony 'Palestinian Al-Qaeda' Caper," Michele Steinberg and Hussein Askary, Executive Intelligence Review (EIR), Volume 29, Number 49, December 20, 2002:

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/200...idf_qaeda.html

"Nidal planned to oust Saddam," NewsInsight.net, August 28, 2002:

"The Palestinian terrorist, Abu Nidal, was working for the Israeli intelligence agency, Mossad, for the last four years and was plotting a coup against Iraqi president Saddam Hussain at the behest of Western powers, top diplomats said.":

http://www.prisonplanet.com/news_alert_hamas3.html

http://www.newsinsight.net/nati2.asp...1293&ctg=World

http://web.archive.org/web/200211200...9/11285-1.html

"Hamas history tied to Israel," Richard Sale, UPI Terrorism Correspondent From the International Desk, United Press International (UPI), June 18, 2002:

http://web.archive.org/web/200209010...et/hamas1.html

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=...2-051845-8272r

"The Hamas-Likud Pairing," Editorial, Jerusalem Post, August 25, 1995:

http://www.io.com/~jewishwb/iris/archives/608.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/news_alert_hamas4.html

"Israeli Roots of Hamas are being exposed," Dean Andromidas, Executive Intelligence Review (EIR), Volume 29, Number 2, January 18, 2002:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/AND204A.html

"Sharon War Plan Exposed: Hamas Gang Is His Tool," Jeffrey Steinberg, Executive Intelligence Review (EIR), Volume 28, Number 27, July 20, 2001:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/STE204A.html

"Israel's Hamas," George Szamuely, The New York Press, Volume 15, Issue 17, April 2002:

http://www.nypress.com/15/17/taki/2.cfm

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/SZA204A.html

Israel's Sacred Terrorism: A Study Based on Moshe Sharett's Personal Diary and Other Documents by Livia Rokach, foreword by Noam Chomsky (AAUG Press; Third Edition: 1986), ISBN: 0-937694-70-3 (0937694703):

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/englis...ys/rokach.html

---

And let us not forget that the largest terrorist act in Palestine was and remains the bombing of the King David Hotel on July 26, 1946 by Jews dressed as Arabs. 91 people were killed and around 45 people were injured. The attack was ordered by David Ben Gurion and directed by Menachem Begin, both of whom would later become Israeli Prime Ministers. For more on that, see:

"King David Hotel bombing," Wikipedia:

http://web.archive.org/web/200302280...ng_David_Hotel

"The Bombing Of The King David Hotel":

http://web.archive.org/web/200110190...davidhotel.htm

See also:

WhatReallyHappened.com News Articles Archive:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/May03articles.html

"5/18/03 Nine killed in double Jerusalem suicide bombing
http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20ar...%20bombing.htm Police Chief Shlomo Aharonishki said the first bomber was disguised as an Orthodox Jew and that a skullcap and prayer shawl were found on him. (Interesting that nobody ever suspects that bombers who look like Arabs might be in disguise, especially since the King David Hotel was blown up by Israelis dressed as Arabs, not to mention the infamous Lavon Affair. In any event, the timing makes it obvious that the bombings were intended to derail the peace process. Now, who wanted that to happen? That's your ultimate mastermind.)"

[Jamie Michelle]

Concerning recent news on the bombing of the King David Hotel on July 26, 1946 by Jews dressed as Arabs, which to this day remains the largest terrorist act ever committed in Palestine (i.e. "Israel"), which was ordered by David Ben Gurion and directed by Menachem Begin, both of whom would later become Israeli Prime Ministers, see the below article:



"British anger at terror celebration," Ned Parker and Stephen Farrell, Times (U.K.), July 20, 2006:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...277717,00.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFr...7717-3,00.html

http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/king_david_2.pdf

http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/king_david_1.pdf

[interestedParty]

I'm bored today so i have to:

in this election 48% of the electorate, myself included, voted AGAINST Bush, and even then there are many in this country who believe that this percentage would have been higher if not for the unscrupulous actions of the GOP in Ohio and Florida.

This is interesting, isn't it? Indirectly, you also claim here that your country is a kind of uncivilized... Stealing or manipulating the votes is something that only belongs to uncivilized, non- or half-democratic countries, right?

So, to confuse the actions of this administration in particular with the will of the American people is an insult to every American.

Well, you elected that cowboy twice (two times), so that's something that must be the will of the people.. Or, maybe someone stole the votes 2 times? In such case, this becomes a kind of tradition.. Are you on the way to become god damned russia, or something?

You missed the entire point of my argument, which was this: we Americans do not think or act as a single unit, nor does any other nation or people. The root cause of all bigotries and racist philosophies is the belief that all members of a given people/ethnicity/nationality think and/or act as a single entity. By making such sweeping generalizations about Americans, you prove yourself to be nothing more than a common bigot.

And before you say a word about my post of Japanese WWII war-crimes, know that the I was referring to them in order to point out that the Japanese government was just as knee-deep in blood as the other nations in the war.

The decision to use two prototype nuclear bombs was, in the eyes of the historian, perhaps a poor one. But the other options facing Truman at that juncture were just as bad, and they were (in no particular order):

1. Conclude a peace with the then present Japanese government, which, even if it was agreed to, would most likely have left the principle warmongers in power, thus leaving the door open to further conflict. In fact, even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed, and it was apparent that the Emperor was getting ready to surrender, there was an attempted coup d'etat on the part of certain factions within the military government (here's the Wikipedia article on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan). To have chosen to pursue this course would have been tantamount to concluding a peace treaty with Germany and allowing Hitler and his henchmen to stay in power.
   
2. Invade Japan — a course of action that would've meant the death of several hundred thousand American soldiers, and many times that number of Japanese soldiers and civilians. All throughout the war in the Pacific, the Japanese military had shown a remarkable disregard for human life, as was shown not only by their savage treatment POW's (cf. my earlier post on Japanese war-crimes) but also in battle (e.g., the kamikaze attacks on the US fleet off Okinawa, the suicidal tactics its soldiers engaged in when it was clear that defeat was inevitable, convincing civilians that they should commit suicide rather than capitulate (this was done primarily through propaganda; cf. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa), etc).
   The plan for the invasion of Japan was codenamed "Operation Downfall' (Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall), and — as I said before — the casualties would've been horrendous. I quote the Wikipedia article:
   

   In a study done by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in April, the figures of 7.45 casualties/1000 man-days and 1.78 fatalities/1000 man-days were developed. This implied that a 90-day Olympic campaign would cost 456,000 casualties, including 109,000 dead or missing. If Coronet took another 90 days, the combined cost would be 1,200,000 casualties, with 267,000 fatalities.

   'Olympic' was the codename for the invasion of Kyushu, and 'Coronet' was the codename for the invasion of Honshu. Part of the force to be used in Operation Downfall would've been soldiers redeployed from the European Theater, where they had just finished defeating the Third Reich and were expecting to be sent home.
   
3. Blockade Japan. This option is not usually brought up during these types of discussions (at least the ones I've heard), but I'm sure it must've crossed the minds of the military's higher-ups at the time. In this option, US and Allied fleets would have, I believe, created a blockade around Japan, in a massive attempt at seige warfare. A similar tactic had worked for Britain in the first World War, although, on its own, it hadn't been enough to defeat the Kaiserreich. In my opinion, if this strategy was pursued, the death-toll for the Japanese civilian population would've been even higher than it would've been for Operation Downfall — although it would have meant less casualties for the Allies. Hunger and disease would probably resulted in the deaths of millions, since any fishing-boats and traders would be commandeered or destroyed by the Allied fleet. This would've taken years to carry out, and would also have resulted in the partitioning of Japan after its surrender, since it's doubtless that the Soviet Union would have to have been enlisted for the plan to succeed. As a result, there would have been a North Japan and a South Japan — one Communist, and the other democratic — just as there is a North Korea and South Korea, and as there was once an East Germany and West Germany.

So, here's President Truman, faced with this stark decision, and suddenly he's told that this top-secret military project has perfected two totally new prototype bombs that are so powerful that they could destroy entire cities. He used them. Unfortunately, the strategy of destroying cities was used by all sides in WWII (although Germany was the first to attempt it, the Allies — through the direction of the British Air Marshal Harris(Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Harris#World_War_II), who was the impetus behind the strategy — used it to most devastating effect against Germany; when Japan became within the range of the B-29, General Curtis LeMay(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Lemay), ordered the fire-bombing of, among other industrial targets, Tokyo. This is one of the more shameful aspects of the American defeat of Japan).

There are some who say that the US government should have simply demonstrated the A-bomb on a deserted island and had a Japanese delegation witness it. It is possible that this might have worked, however, I doubt it. Given the tenacity of the Japanese militarists, and their power within the nation's government, the only way this would've worked would've been for the Emperor himself to be present as a witness; anyone else would have been sidelined or intimidated into giving the Emporer a whitewashed account of the test. In any event, Truman's political foes would have lambasted him for having treated Japan with kid-gloves after so many American soldiers had been killed; remember, no one except the scientists who created them truly understood the power of these weapons, and even they couldn't conceive of the horror that their use would unleash until after the fact. And to the military higher-ups, who knew as much about nuclear radiation as the general public — that is, absolutely nothing — these were nothing more than 'supersized' bombs.

In the end, the usage of the two A-bombs can only be called the lesser of the three evils.

PS—Just so you know, the reason the Japanese decided to attack Pearl Harbor was most likely the oil embargo the US government placed on Japan for waging war in Manchuria; the Japanese military wanted to bring about a swift defeat of the US Pacific fleet, hoping that would convince the Rooselvelt administration to sue for peace (with terms that would allow the Japanese government to increase its sphere of influence in Asia). However, the roots of the conflict probably date back at least to the Russo-Japanese War, when it became clear to the US government that Japan was beginning to assert its claim to territorial expansion in the Pacific (and that it also was a military force to be reckoned with).

[yosi]

Most, if not all, of the so-called Arab "suicide bombers" in Palestine (i.e., so-called "Israel") are simply bombs that the Israeli government planted itself in order to claim a so-called "suicide attack" as a pretext for its continuing genocide against the native inhabitants.

this id a pure BULLSHIT , it will be the same like saying that the 9/11 was a U.S. government plan as an excuse to fihgt Bin Laden

[blahblahblah]

I'm bored today so i have to:

in this election 48% of the electorate, myself included, voted AGAINST Bush, and even then there are many in this country who believe that this percentage would have been higher if not for the unscrupulous actions of the GOP in Ohio and Florida.

This is interesting, isn't it? Indirectly, you also claim here that your country is a kind of uncivilized... Stealing or manipulating the votes is something that only belongs to uncivilized, non- or half-democratic countries, right?

So, to confuse the actions of this administration in particular with the will of the American people is an insult to every American.

Well, you elected that cowboy twice (two times), so that's something that must be the will of the people.. Or, maybe someone stole the votes 2 times? In such case, this becomes a kind of tradition.. Are you on the way to become god damned russia, or something?

You missed the entire point of my argument, which was this: we Americans do not think or act as a single unit, nor does any other nation or people. The root cause of all bigotries and racist philosophies is the belief that all members of a given people/ethnicity/nationality think and/or act as a single entity. By making such sweeping generalizations about Americans, you prove yourself to be nothing more than a common bigot.

And before you say a word about my post of Japanese WWII war-crimes, know that the I was referring to them in order to point out that the Japanese government was just as knee-deep in blood as the other nations in the war.

The decision to use two prototype nuclear bombs was, in the eyes of the historian, perhaps a poor one. But the other options facing Truman at that juncture were just as bad, and they were (in no particular order):

1. Conclude a peace with the then present Japanese government, which, even if it was agreed to, would most likely have left the principle warmongers in power, thus leaving the door open to further conflict. In fact, even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed, and it was apparent that the Emperor was getting ready to surrender, there was an attempted coup d'etat on the part of certain factions within the military government (here's the Wikipedia article on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan). To have chosen to pursue this course would have been tantamount to concluding a peace treaty with Germany and allowing Hitler and his henchmen to stay in power.
   
2. Invade Japan — a course of action that would've meant the death of several hundred thousand American soldiers, and many times that number of Japanese soldiers and civilians. All throughout the war in the Pacific, the Japanese military had shown a remarkable disregard for human life, as was shown not only by their savage treatment POW's (cf. my earlier post on Japanese war-crimes) but also in battle (e.g., the kamikaze attacks on the US fleet off Okinawa, the suicidal tactics its soldiers engaged in when it was clear that defeat was inevitable, convincing civilians that they should commit suicide rather than capitulate (this was done primarily through propaganda; cf. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa), etc).
   The plan for the invasion of Japan was codenamed "Operation Downfall' (Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall), and — as I said before — the casualties would've been horrendous. I quote the Wikipedia article:
   

   In a study done by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in April, the figures of 7.45 casualties/1000 man-days and 1.78 fatalities/1000 man-days were developed. This implied that a 90-day Olympic campaign would cost 456,000 casualties, including 109,000 dead or missing. If Coronet took another 90 days, the combined cost would be 1,200,000 casualties, with 267,000 fatalities.

   'Olympic' was the codename for the invasion of Kyushu, and 'Coronet' was the codename for the invasion of Honshu. Part of the force to be used in Operation Downfall would've been soldiers redeployed from the European Theater, where they had just finished defeating the Third Reich and were expecting to be sent home.
   
3. Blockade Japan. This option is not usually brought up during these types of discussions (at least the ones I've heard), but I'm sure it must've crossed the minds of the military's higher-ups at the time. In this option, US and Allied fleets would have, I believe, created a blockade around Japan, in a massive attempt at seige warfare. A similar tactic had worked for Britain in the first World War, although, on its own, it hadn't been enough to defeat the Kaiserreich. In my opinion, if this strategy was pursued, the death-toll for the Japanese civilian population would've been even higher than it would've been for Operation Downfall — although it would have meant less casualties for the Allies. Hunger and disease would probably resulted in the deaths of millions, since any fishing-boats and traders would be commandeered or destroyed by the Allied fleet. This would've taken years to carry out, and would also have resulted in the partitioning of Japan after its surrender, since it's doubtless that the Soviet Union would have to have been enlisted for the plan to succeed. As a result, there would have been a North Japan and a South Japan — one Communist, and the other democratic — just as there is a North Korea and South Korea, and as there was once an East Germany and West Germany.

So, here's President Truman, faced with this stark decision, and suddenly he's told that this top-secret military project has perfected two totally new prototype bombs that are so powerful that they could destroy entire cities. He used them. Unfortunately, the strategy of destroying cities was used by all sides in WWII (although Germany was the first to attempt it, the Allies — through the direction of the British Air Marshal Harris(Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Harris#World_War_II), who was the impetus behind the strategy — used it to most devastating effect against Germany; when Japan became within the range of the B-29, General Curtis LeMay(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Lemay), ordered the fire-bombing of, among other industrial targets, Tokyo. This is one of the more shameful aspects of the American defeat of Japan).

There are some who say that the US government should have simply demonstrated the A-bomb on a deserted island and had a Japanese delegation witness it. It is possible that this might have worked, however, I doubt it. Given the tenacity of the Japanese militarists, and their power within the nation's government, the only way this would've worked would've been for the Emperor himself to be present as a witness; anyone else would have been sidelined or intimidated into giving the Emporer a whitewashed account of the test. In any event, Truman's political foes would have lambasted him for having treated Japan with kid-gloves after so many American soldiers had been killed; remember, no one except the scientists who created them truly understood the power of these weapons, and even they couldn't conceive of the horror that their use would unleash until after the fact. And to the military higher-ups, who knew as much about nuclear radiation as the general public — that is, absolutely nothing — these were nothing more than 'supersized' bombs.

In the end, the usage of the two A-bombs can only be called the lesser of the three evils.

PS—Just so you know, the reason the Japanese decided to attack Pearl Harbor was most likely the oil embargo the US government placed on Japan for waging war in Manchuria; the Japanese military wanted to bring about a swift defeat of the US Pacific fleet, hoping that would convince the Rooselvelt administration to sue for peace (with terms that would allow the Japanese government to increase its sphere of influence in Asia). However, the roots of the conflict probably date back at least to the Russo-Japanese War, when it became clear to the US government that Japan was beginning to assert its claim to territorial expansion in the Pacific (and that it also was a military force to be reckoned with).

OMG..

Well, i admire your patriotism.

[interestedParty]

OMG..

Well, i admire your patriotism.

My previous post was not an expression of patriotism, it was the truth.

PS—I can't help but remark on your ability for maintaining your ignorance.