Israel- What is up with these folks?

[twowaybro]

Sorry 4 jumping off topic here but with all the madness being perpetrated by Israel as of late i just have 2 rant 4 a second. This government has taken idiocy, cruelty and hatred 2 a whole new level. They r constantly in violation of international law in their geo-strategic policies and this is only fostered and allowed 2 prevail with the help of us in the West( US and Britain). These people are dangerously close to igniting a spark that will usher in perilous times in that region and dare i say the world. Personally, i think that this current round of violence on Israels' part is aimed at provoking Iran into conflict and thereby giving them an excuse to take out Iran's nuclear facilities. This would b a geo-political mistake in my opinion and the West must apply pressure on the Israeli regime not 2 pursue this course of action. The consequences of such a move r 2 dire 2 even contemplate. Who has granted these people the right 2 determine the future of another sovereign state? How long will the powerful Israeli lobby hold US foreign policy hostage? As occupiers on stolen land one would think that reason would dictate 2 the Israeli regime that the only rational course of action 4 peace in this region is through negotiation and a back down of open hostility and continued occupation and oppression. The Palestinian people have a right 2 statehood and self-determination and as 2 who and how they will b governed. How long will the world stand by and watch this travesty of justice continue....hmmm???

[twowaybro]

if not for israel this world would be a scary fuckin place...thank fuckin god theres someone with brains and balls moitoring the nasty fuckin people all around them...u know its politically correct to say all men and stuff are created equal, but theyre not, some people are fuckin animals

...spoken like a true racist idiot and warmonger. If this is the prevalent attitude of the average Israeli citizen(which i dont believe is the case as polls show) then no wonder there is continued violence in that region and resentment on the part of the average Palestinian towards Israel.

[suckseed]

Now wait a minute, j. Are you not willing to consider that these people's leaders have been described by some soldiers as basically being a middle eastern version of southern baptists here? Crotchety old fuckers frowning upon alcohol and dancing? Just hanging on to a very old religious/cultural way of thought/life because they have so much resistance to change? I firmly believe that anyone, anywhere in the world just basically wants to make a living and live their life. Yes religion can be fucked up nd breed the kind of shit you're talking about - but Not everyone over there is a bloodthirsty asshole. This society has been talked about for years as breeding a hotbed of US/western hatred through its system of terrorist schools. You take a piss-poor person and tell them with all the power of simultaneously religious and government offices and you tell 'em, "These Americans are getting rich off of YOUR oil and killing your people....your country and your God command you to fight!" Well shit, picture telling a bunch of good ole Southern boys the Russians are coming!
OF COURSE these folks are sucking it up. But we can't just kill them. It's not right, it's not necessary, and it's very very doubtful that, even removing these two huge reasons, we even could. Imagine what bombing the fuck out of a middle eastern country would start. Empires have fallen trying to fight everybody.
Look, we're all coming into contact with each other via various media more than has ever been possible. These cultures which have obviously violent ways of settling conflict are just behind the times. We have to be tough with them. That's all they respect. But we can't turn into mass-murderers, rapists, OR lose our constitutional freedoms over this shit. In a way, we're all rats in a cage. The cage isn't getting any bigger, but there's a fuck of a lot of rats. The fighting is over resources. Everything else is just propaganda.
Maybe I'm wrong. But to me the only long term hope is that we learn to live together, not in any Brady Bunch sense of world peace, but just fucking doing business, taking vacations, letting the world markets and immigration stabilize, races continue to intermarry until we're all kinda coffee-and-cream people, and we quit wasting all the money and people fighting over stupid shit. Either that kind of thing happens, or we're gonna see things get a whole lot worse. I get so fucking down thinking about sick hungry kids in piss poor neighborhoods and people suffering. Whatever it is,war, government, religion, people just not giving a shit, I fucking hate it.

[polarstar]

TwoWay, you are beyond ignorant.

Who are the Palestinians? Was there every a nation of Palestine?

NO!

It was a territory England seized from the Ottoman Turks after England won WWI. The Turks held it for almost 600 years prior to that. Before that, it was mostly in Crusader hands. Before that, a succession of nation-states like the Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, etc. Before that, the Hebrews. Before that, a loose collection of tribes of biblical times: Moabites, Amorites, Hittites, etc.

Do you see "Palestinian" there?

NO! This was NEVER Palestinian land.

Who did Israel take the land from in 1967 (by winning a war the ARAB nations started)? They took the land from Jordan, Egypt, and Syria. Do you see "Palestine" on that list?

NO!

The "Palestinians" of today were Jordanians and Egyptians before they decided to call themselves "Palestinians". You want Israel to give more land back? You know, of course, that they did, when Egypt decided to make peace with them. They'll give it back, but to Jordan or Egypt.

The Arabs of the region were given a 2-state solution, in 1948. And you know what they did with it? They started a fucking war, determined to drive the Israelis into the sea.

They lost that war. They lost every other war they started. They are going to lose this one.

The Arabs of the region don't want peace or a 2-state solution. They won't stop until they have destroyed Israel. It's not out of concern for the "Palestinians". It's because they hate Jews and want the land.

Get a fucking grip!!!!

[suckseed]

What I was talking about was our relationship with Iraq or Muslims. I'm not qualified to make an intelligent guess at what's going on with Israel and Palestine. What's the situation there? Educate me. It's the same thing with India/Palestine. It's a fucking stupid religious thing that won't let go. What the fuck is it going to take to change things? Are the Palestinians violent to a person? Or is it just a minority?

[suckseed]

You tell us, Fabiane. What's the solution to the middle east crisis? And what's a cute little thing like you doing double anal?

[Quinn]

I figured it was only a matter of time until someone posted on this topic. That said, let's look at some facts:

1. Arab citizens of Israel, who makeup roughly 20 percent of its population, have more rights and greater representation (Arab Democratic Party, etc.) in the Jewish state than they do under any Arab regime. Note. I’m not talking about non-Israeli citizens in Gaza and the West Bank.

2. Israel is, and has long been, the only true democracy in the Middle East. Turkey has never been a true democracy in that the military steps in every time it sees something it doesn’t like. Iran is anything but a democracy because the Islamic Guardian Council must approve any candidate before they can for office. Not surprisingly, it tends to bar moderate and liberal candidates from running. Lebanon’s political process has always been controlled by Syria. Despite recent efforts by the Lebanese people to achieve greater political independence, Syrian intelligence agents – who are everywhere in Syria – still strongly influence the political process. Egypt, with its president for life, is a dictatorship with the only the thinnest veneer of democracy. Iraq is still a new democracy and not a functionally sovereign/independent entity despite claims to the contrary). The rest of the states not mentioned are all monarchies and dictatorships with extreme authoritarian tendencies. So there you have it, not one fucking democracy in the Middle East for decades, except the state of Israel.

3. There are more new books published each year in the tiny state of Israel than the rest of the Middle East combined. This shows you the cultural difference between what is produced in the region's only democracy and its ubiquitous authoritarian regimes.

4. Palestine means "Land of the Philistines." The Philistines were a colony of Mycenean Greeks who fought against the ancient Israelites. The Philistines are no longer there, the people of Israel still are (despite the occasional deportation). In fact, their presence in the region predates by a substantial time period both Islam and anything that could be considered a recognizable Arab culture – at least in the sense of the word "Arab" as we know it today.

5. As previously noted, today’s Palestinians are mostly Egyptians and Jordanians, not a culturally distinct people. Still, if you really want to look for a “Palestinian State,” you don’t need to look any further than Jordan, a state with a 70% Palestinian population

6. In the last ten or so years, Israel has gone to great lengths to make peace with its aggressive neighbors:

A. Under Ehud Barak, Arafat and the Palestinians were offered peace on the terms that they had long claimed would be necessary for a lasting peace with Israel. Despite this, Arafat refused peace. When asked by then President Clinton “how he could be so stupid,” Arafat is reported to have replied “I can’t; they’ll kill me.” He was referring to small hard line elements within his own party who wanted the conflict to continue indefinitely, not matter what terms were offered

B. Hezbollah had long claimed that the only reason for its existence was the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon. It’s leadership had always stated that once Israel withdrew, it could disband. Under Ehud Barak, Israel withdrew from said territory. Not surprisingly, Hezbollah is still there, attacking Israel. Their new justification has been to claim that the Sheba Farms – territory that every nation on the planet, including the Lebanese government, and the UN agree belongs to Syria – rightfully belongs to Lebanon (a claim that Hezbollah only made after Israel withdrew from Lebanon). As such, according to Hezbollah, Israel is still occupying Lebanon. Fucking ridiculous.

C. Syria had long claimed that if Israel would return the Golan Heights, it would make peace with Israel. Once again, under Ehud Barak, Israel offered the return of the Golan Heights. The Syrians countered by stating that, not only did they want the return of all of their original land, but they also wanted new land that Syria had never owned. Not surprisingly, peace talks broke down.

In each of the three aforementioned instances, Israel agreed to meet longstanding and often stated Arab terms for peace, only to have new demands put in place or simply to have peace refused without any explanation at all. Given that the Arabs started the 48, 67, and 73 wars, why should this come as a surprise?

-Quinn

[Socal19842001]

I don't really find it necessary to state a political opinion when I'd be responding to someone who types the number "2" instead of "to."

[InHouston]

TwoWay, you are beyond ignorant.

Who are the Palestinians? Was there every a nation of Palestine?

NO!

It was a territory England seized from the Ottoman Turks after England won WWI. The Turks held it for almost 600 years prior to that. Before that, it was mostly in Crusader hands. Before that, a succession of nation-states like the Greeks, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, etc. Before that, the Hebrews. Before that, a loose collection of tribes of biblical times: Moabites, Amorites, Hittites, etc.

Do you see "Palestinian" there?

NO! This was NEVER Palestinian land.

Who did Israel take the land from in 1967 (by winning a war the ARAB nations started)? They took the land from Jordan, Egypt, and Syria. Do you see "Palestine" on that list?

NO!

The "Palestinians" of today were Jordanians and Egyptians before they decided to call themselves "Palestinians". You want Israel to give more land back? You know, of course, that they did, when Egypt decided to make peace with them. They'll give it back, but to Jordan or Egypt.

The Arabs of the region were given a 2-state solution, in 1948. And you know what they did with it? They started a fucking war, determined to drive the Israelis into the sea.

They lost that war. They lost every other war they started. They are going to lose this one.

The Arabs of the region don't want peace or a 2-state solution. They won't stop until they have destroyed Israel. It's not out of concern for the "Palestinians". It's because they hate Jews and want the land.

Get a fucking grip!!!!

Well said!

Israel didn't start this as you would have it TwoWayBro. Hezbollah has been sitting on the northern border of Israel with their rockets poised directly at Israeli cities for some time now. The Israeli's knew it because, unlike you, they're informed about the situation around them as a result of vigilant intelligence. Your ranting post clearly demonstrates that you have little understanding about the conflict in the region. Israel is completely surrounded by enemies. When one of them stages an attack from a neighboring country, you can bet Israel will respond harshly against that country if their government will not thwart the problem themselves. If militants in Canada lobbed rockets over the border into an American city, you can bet that America (any country) would respond back viciously to make it clear to the perpetrators that such actions will not go unpunished.

When you have Muslims against Jews, there is no “Roadmap to Peace”. There is only the “Roadmap to Damascus and Tehran”.

Get a clue TwoWayBro.

[blackandblue]

Goodness me! I would have to go a long way to read such rubbish! All the way to the 'Good ole USA'.

Let's see;

1.
"Arab citizens of Israel, who makeup roughly 20 percent of its population, have more rights and greater representation (Arab Democratic Party, etc.) in the Jewish state than they do under any Arab regime. Note. I’m not talking about non-Israeli citizens in Gaza and the West Bank."

What does this mean exactly?

Here's another take on the situation;
Founded in 1988 by Abdel Wahab Daroushe, a former Labor Party Knesset member, the Arab Democratic Party (ADP) won one seat in 1988 Knesset elections and 2 in the 1992 elections. Its platform focuses on achievement of full equality for Israeli Arabs and on full Israeli withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, as well as the establishment of a Palestinian state. In 1996 and 1999, Daroushe agreed to participate in a joint electoral list with Islamic groups.


In other words, Israeli Arabs are not considered equal to Israeli Jews in Israel. It's written into their 'constitution'.

2.
Israel is, and has long been, the only true democracy in the Middle East.

If the Israeli Arabs are not considered equal, it is not a "True Democracy" Full stop.

3.
"There are more new books published each year in the tiny state of Israel than the rest of the Middle East combined. This shows you the cultural difference between what is produced in the region's only democracy and its ubiquitous authoritarian regimes."

It is entirely possible that if the Arab countries were not kept in a constant stae of turmoil by certain western countries in cahoots with 'Israel', they could use their resources elsewhere.
But Israel and the USA love to develop and sell weapons.

Read the latest? U.S. vetoes U.N. resolution against Israel
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...-un-veto_x.htm

That must be close to the seventieth(that is correct, 70) time that the USA has vetoed a resolution against Israel.

Why do you think that could be? Is everyone but the USA and Israel wrong? No one could be so stupid as to believe that. Do you?

Yet, they are VERY keen to enforce UN resolutions against others.


I'm not USA bashing(in this case). Just hoping at least a few people will step back and ask themselves a few questions.


4.
"Palestine means "Land of the Philistines." The Philistines were a colony of Mycenean Greeks who fought against the ancient Israelites. The Philistines are no longer there, the people of Israel still are (despite the occasional deportation). In fact, their presence in the region predates by a substantial time period both Islam and anything that could be considered a recognizable Arab culture – at least in the sense of the word "Arab" as we know it today."

What has this got to do with anything?

You're conveniently forgetting to mention how the state of Israel was created by terrorism. Yes, Menachem Begin was a terrorist. Do a Google search if you don't believe me.
A Jewish minority was transformed into a Jewish majority. I don't know of too many people who would tolerate that situation.

5.
"As previously noted, today’s Palestinians are mostly Egyptians and Jordanians, not a culturally distinct people. Still, if you really want to look for a “Palestinian State,” you don’t need to look any further than Jordan, a state with a 70% Palestinian population"

If those figures are correct, could that be something to do with the fact that Jordan absorbed a substantial amount of the people fleeing from Israeli terrorism?

Again, look at the facts;
"Since the return of over 300,000 Palestinians from Kuwait in 1991, between 45% and 70% of all Jordanians are Palestinians from the West Bank. Although Palestinians suffer from discrimination and a large number still live in camps, Jordan has granted full citizenship to the Palestinian refugees and their descendents."
"About 3 million persons registered as Palestinian refugees and displaced persons reside in Jordan, most as citizens."

So what is Quinn's point?

6.
"6. In the last ten or so years, Israel has gone to great lengths to make peace with its aggressive neighbors:

A. Under Ehud Barak, Arafat and the Palestinians were offered peace on the terms that they had long claimed would be necessary for a lasting peace with Israel. Despite this, Arafat refused peace. When asked by then President Clinton “how he could be so stupid,” Arafat is reported to have replied “I can’t; they’ll kill me.” He was referring to small hard line elements within his own party who wanted the conflict to continue indefinitely, not matter what terms were offered"

This just pure cr*p.

An excerpt from Wikipedia;
"Clayton Swisher, who was present at the summit, rebuts the conventional wisdom about it in The Truth About Camp David (http://www.lewrockwell.com/wanniski/wanniski36.html). Swisher, a young scholar based in Washington, attempts to approach Camp David objectively and concludes that the Israelis and the Americans were at least as guilty as the Palestinians for the collapse. MJ Rosenberg of Israel Policy Forum, a pro-Israel think-tank in Washington, calls Swisher's book "the single best volume we are likely to have on the Camp David failure." Alternative points of view are offered in books by Dennis Ross and by President Clinton himself. Ross and Clinton, who were also both in attendance, place the blame largely on Arafat."

Full article here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summit

Also take a look at The Oslo Accords; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

I think that I have made my point that Quinn's post is full of mis-information, commonly known as propaganda.

It's clearly unreasonable to expect others to research the subject extensively, but anyone who is so keen to perceive one side as evil, whilst the other blameless, can be deemed an extremist and his views safely ignored.

Now we've read Quinn's version of history, consider this version; http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html


Yes, I signed up just to reply to Quinn post. Personally, I found it disgusting.