Another Malaysian Airliner "crashed" ...

[giovanni_hotel]

I have never stated anywhere that I "hate" Obama. I have never state that I favored any party.

I merely had a question that was straight forth and simple, why would someone choose a flight path that leads directly over an area that 3 other planes had been shot down in the past 2 weeks before this incident?

I understand that Obama didn't have all the facts or anything prepared to say about the civilian aircraft being shot down by either Ukrainians or most likely Russian insurgents and that was kind of the point of what I wrote. He could have ended his appearance at the fundraiser and following events politely excused himself and met with his cabinet to try and determine what if anything needed done and prepared a better statement.

Is BHO King of the fucking WORLD???

Almost everyone killed on that flight was a European, so why don't you bust the balls of all the EU leaders who didn't come out forcefully about the attack??

Why is every god damn problem in the world the responsibility of the USA to solve???

Are you right wingers really prepared to start another Cold/Hot war with Russia by overtly supplying the Ukrainians with military aid??

Ukraine is right on the border of Russia.
Imagine if China decided to supply Mexican rebels with arms??

BHO the day before had just levied the harshest economic sanctions ever against Russia but I don't hear any of you Right wingers talking about that.

It's bad form for the POTUS to freakout and start sabre-ratting every time more than 10 people die someplace in the world.

Obama's handling it.

[Pelheckitt]

Is BHO King of the fucking WORLD???

Almost everyone killed on that flight was a European, so why don't you bust the balls of all the EU leaders who didn't come out forcefully about the attack??

Why is every god damn problem in the world the responsibility of the USA to solve???

Are you right wingers really prepared to start another Cold/Hot war with Russia by overtly supplying the Ukrainians with military aid??

Ukraine is right on the border of Russia.
Imagine if China decided to supply Mexican rebels with arms??

BHO the day before had just levied the harshest economic sanctions ever against Russia but I don't hear any of you Right wingers talking about that.

It's bad form for the POTUS to freakout and start sabre-ratting every time more than 10 people die someplace in the world.

Obama's handling it.

Actually the Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said "he’ll leave no stone unturned to catch the culprits." See how that works?

Who was talking about the United States solving all the worlds problems? There were American civilians aboard that flight it was about our nations leader addressing their deaths.

Again im not right wing but anyways... the United States supplies all of it allies with military aide and the cold war wasn't caused by supplying military support to other countries it was a result of the cold war and the U.S.S.R did the same.

China does supply and is close to Venezuela, Cuba and Iran. But as far as I know not Mexico. I would guess that the United States would do nothing since the country is controlled by Mexican cartels carrying Soviet Era weapons.

Again with the right wing thing I don't get where you got that from? What should I say about the harsher sanctions leveed against Russia and it wasn't just the United States it was several European Countries also.

Asking for answers on behalf of the Nation or the very least for the families would be saber rattling?

Obama is handling it? Ok

[giovanni_hotel]

See, the problem is you're parroting right-wing talking points.

It's a lie to say that the EU signed off on the harsher sanctions issued by the U.S. two days ago.
Name the countries that were signatories on those U.S. sanctions targeting Russian banks and freezing the foreign assets of top Russian corporations?? You can't because there were none.

The main complaint out of the WH is the EU is being pussy about punishing Russia for escalating the Ukrainian conflict because they need Russian natural gas.

China is NOT a primary or secondary arms supplier for any country in Central America.

If the Mexican cartels decided one day to overtly take over the Mexican government and put themselves in control, if Russia was their main military benefactor it would put the U.S. and Russia on the brink of a broader military conflict.

The Cold War was defined by multiple proxi-wars between the U.S. and Russia(see Afghanistan in the 1980s) where both parties made military and political alliances with developing nations in Latin America, Africa and Asia who were in opposition to either superpower's influence.

Nearly two-thirds of those killed in the Malaysian shoot down were Dutch, and the flight itself took off from the Netherlands. Of course the Netherlands would view this tragedy as a much more personal attack than the United States.

If a 250 passenger flight from California heading to Australia was shot down over China, but there were 15 Brits on board, would you expect the official response from the UK and the U.S. to be the same??smdh

And which one is it, are the Mexi cartels supplied more with the latest AMERICAN MADE firearms, or lol 'Soviet era' automatic weapons?? Don't make up shit to prove a nonsensical point.
Fast-And-Furious was an ATF operation to track the flow of U.S. weapons across the Mexican border into the hands into the hands of Mexican cartels because Mexican law enforcement was encountering huge caches of American weapons whenever they had firefights and arrested cartel members.

Senator McCain or any other U.S. politician suggesting we should supply arms to the Ukrainian government is thinking strictly short-term. There are non-identified RUSSIAN SOLDIERS fighting in Ukraine and Russia has nearly 15,000 troops going through exercises on the border.

What happens if it's a U.S. military transport airplane bringing supplies to Ukraine with a dozen military advisers on board that's shot down instead of the Malaysia flight???

I'm at the point if the EU is fine with Russia annexing Ukraine, let them have it.

[Prospero]

I am kinda reminded of dear old George Bush and the moment he heard the news about 9/11 ... sitting listening to a kiddies story in a school.

[GroobySteven]

I am kinda reminded of dear old George Bush and the moment he heard the news about 9/11 ... sitting listening to a kiddies story in a school.

But you know, even as much as I disliked Bush, I think that was over-blown out of proportion. He was given the news and what was he meant to do, jump up and run out screaming for someone's head?

[Prospero]

I agree Steven. At that point he had only the first inklings of the scale of what had happened.

My personal take on that is that I recall first getting word of the 9/11 attack of it via a tiny little news flash on yahoo saying a civilian plane had had accident at world trade centre. I only looked further immediately because I'd been in Windows On The World a week before filming part of a documentary. (Many of the people I'd met a few days before at the WTC died that morning)

[Pelheckitt]

See, the problem is you're parroting right-wing talking points.

It's a lie to say that the EU signed off on the harsher sanctions issued by the U.S. two days ago.
Name the countries that were signatories on those U.S. sanctions targeting Russian banks and freezing the foreign assets of top Russian corporations?? You can't because there were none.

The main complaint out of the WH is the EU is being pussy about punishing Russia for escalating the Ukrainian conflict because they need Russian natural gas.

China is NOT a primary or secondary arms supplier for any country in Central America.

If the Mexican cartels decided one day to overtly take over the Mexican government and put themselves in control, if Russia was their main military benefactor it would put the U.S. and Russia on the brink of a broader military conflict.

The Cold War was defined by multiple proxi-wars between the U.S. and Russia(see Afghanistan in the 1980s) where both parties made military and political alliances with developing nations in Latin America, Africa and Asia who were in opposition to either superpower's influence.

Nearly two-thirds of those killed in the Malaysian shoot down were Dutch, and the flight itself took off from the Netherlands. Of course the Netherlands would view this tragedy as a much more personal attack than the United States.

If a 250 passenger flight from California heading to Australia was shot down over China, but there were 15 Brits on board, would you expect the official response from the UK and the U.S. to be the same??smdh

And which one is it, are the Mexi cartels supplied more with the latest AMERICAN MADE firearms, or lol 'Soviet era' automatic weapons?? Don't make up shit to prove a nonsensical point.
Fast-And-Furious was an ATF operation to track the flow of U.S. weapons across the Mexican border into the hands into the hands of Mexican cartels because Mexican law enforcement was encountering huge caches of American weapons whenever they had firefights and arrested cartel members.

Senator McCain or any other U.S. politician suggesting we should supply arms to the Ukrainian government is thinking strictly short-term. There are non-identified RUSSIAN SOLDIERS fighting in Ukraine and Russia has nearly 15,000 troops going through exercises on the border.

What happens if it's a U.S. military transport airplane bringing supplies to Ukraine with a dozen military advisers on board that's shot down instead of the Malaysia flight???

I'm at the point if the EU is fine with Russia annexing Ukraine, let them have it.

Ok LOL.

During phone conversations over the past several days, Obama and the leaders of the U.K., France and Germany reaffirmed the conditions that Russia must meet to avert a stiffer round of sanctions, including halting the flow of Russian weapons and fighters into Ukraine

I didn't know the WH was complaining the EU was being pussies? But its perfectly believable to me considering the Syrian conflict had almost zero to do with people and pipelines.

China a supplier of weapon's to central and south America I don't believe that is what I said the number one supplier is the United States over the last 30 or more years refer to Iran-Contra. What I said most of the weapons being used were Soviet area weapons.

I disagree with the Mexican cartel Russian supply network scenario. In a country already saturated with weapons it would make little to no sense to attack Russia as a supplier before you stabilized the boarder. I also wont be drawn in a boarder discussion in a non related thread.

I agree 100% with you on the proxy wars that were a result and not a cause of the Cold War.

Correct most of the people that were aboard this flight were Dutch. Can you tell me what the number of murdered civilians is that a nation is allowed to become outraged and demand answers?

This is what you said " If a 250 passenger flight from California heading to Australia was shot down over China, but there were 15 Brits on board, would you expect the official response from the UK and the U.S. to be the same??smdh"
My answer is yes, simply put if they cared about their people and im sure they do im sure they would demand answers.

Again your correct about the cartels receiving weapons from America through fast and furious and it wasn't Bullshit I merely said that many of the weapons the cartels use are Soviet era weapons. Only a small percentage of them were acquired through fast and furious but true one is one to many. A lot of the weapons were acquired through the fall of the U.S.S.R and weapons grab of the early 90's mainly South American countries. Mexico has enjoyed the use of United States military hardware as a whole...but we are talking cartels.

Again your way off base, I never claimed that the United States should supply any weapons to the Ukraine but the United States has determined that the Ukraine is an allie and will support them in there on going fight to maintain a free nation.

If a US transport aircraft had been shot down what would happen.....sadly I believe they would have received the same 40 second mention as the people on the Malaysian flight received.

You feel its fine for the Russia to annex the Ukraine ok that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I personal do not care I don't have a dog in the fight and to be honest it seems like a EU issue. Until innocent civilians are slaughtered at 35,000 by military weapons then answers are required if not action.

It's tedious how you keep moving the pieces around the board and expanding on everything rather than simply stating what your trying to state. This all started with one question and an observation of President of the United States and has grown into this bloated and honestly boring for anyone else response.

Call me right wing again despite me never claiming any political affiliation and dissect any reply I have made if you like.

I succeed you win the argument, its beyond me to continue this mental masturbation with you.

[giovanni_hotel]

There was ONE American on that Malaysian flight.

Why the United States should feel the most aggrieved from the shoot down, or have the most vocal outrage is beyond me.

Instead of worrying whether or not Obama had the appropriate media presentation addressing the tragic loss of human life, the EU should try to decide what their main agenda is as an alliance of nations.

If foreign incursions into potential future EU partners is acceptable to the EU, it makes no sense for the United States to care more or respond more forcefully than the EU to the insurgent conflict in Unkraine.

Complaining that it was inappropriate for BHO to continue a fundraising tour or being upset that he didn't threaten Russia more is useless.


The WH ALONE issued the harshest sanctions yet against Russia for their interference in Ukraine.

You would think a unified Europe wouldn't need Uncle Sam to stand up to Russia for them.

[Stavros]

I can't think of anything more fatuous right now than people bickering over President Obama's reaction to this crisis.

The priority now is for the Dutch Air Accident team to be given unlimited access to the crash site in order to a) recover and identify the victims, and return them to their families; and b) recover as much as they can of the wreckage of the plane so that it can be re-assembled in a hangar somewhere in the Netherlands for forensic inspection (as happened with PanAm 103 that was brought down over Lockerbie in 198. This inspection ought to be able to determine if MH17 was brought down by a bomb on board, by a surface-to-air missile, or by a missile fired from a military jet.

The government of the Ukraine has the legal right to impose its authority on the territory under its jurisdiction, but it is clear that the military action used to assert this right has led to the displacement of 25,000 people from eastern Ukraine now living as refugees in Russia. The manifest lack of trust between the east of Ukraine and the rest of the country cannot justify the creation of the 'Donetsk People's Republic' or the support given to it by Russia, so there is clearly a need for a new approach to resolve the political settlement of the Ukraine without further recourse to violence.

In this context, the EU or the UN should sponsor a conference which could propose:
-the immediate cessation of all military action in the Ukraine;
-the status quo ante in which all of the territory of the Ukraine (minus the Crimea) is controlled by the government in Kiev;
-the dissolution of the current government in favour of a government of national unity which would include representatives from all parts of the country and work towards the creation of a new constitution followed by elections;
-a new demarcation of the international boundary of the Ukraine in which the eastern provinces become part of Russia, subject to a referendum;
-that the Ukraine agree to become a neutral state and therefore not pursue membership of the EU or NATO (which is not popular in the Ukraine anyway).

These options would enable Ukraine to reassert its political sovereignty, enable Russia to revert to being a 'good neighbour', and offer Europe a neutral state in the borderlands with Russia; but would also require the disbandment of the 'armed forces' of the 'Donetsk People's Republic', and end Vladimir Putin's dream of re-creating the USSR in all but name.

Even during the Cold War when economic ties between the USSR and Europe were negligible, no military action was considered when the Red Army invaded Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968, or when martial law was declared in Poland in 1981, although President Reagan did respond by sponsoring a tv programme, Let Poland be Poland. The solutions, though difficult, are diplomatic. It all depends on how seriously the parties want to stop fighting and start talking, and how willing they are to make bold decisions about the future of relations between the Ukraine and Russia.

[scroller]

But you know, even as much as I disliked Bush, I think that was over-blown out of proportion. He was given the news and what was he meant to do, jump up and run out screaming for someone's head?

"Sorry, children, something important has come up and I have to go."