Fuck the Police State

[the_unnatural]

Well, no sense trying to communicate with someone so hysterical.

[trish]

Well, no sense trying to communicate with someone so hysterical.

I'm sorry. Given the title of the thread and given "communications" like

you have a giant police-state snowball running out of contro

I just sort of thought we implicitly agreed to speak in hyperbole.

Here's a couple more just for fun:

Seems more than half the black population of this Nation has been behind bars since the seventies. (Before that they were being lynched and murdered by the KKK). But let a white man's car be subject to search on the reasonable assumption it may contain drugs and BAM...we're living in a giant police state.

Do we live in a police state? In a police state, complete totalitarian control resides with the executive. Anyone makes the executive unhappy and they’re disappeared. OH MY GOD! That’s what happened to Eric Cantor!! That explains why all three branches of government seem to be acting together in machine like lockstep. It's a giant fucking snowballing police state!!!!

No. We don't live in a police state. We don't come anywhere near the definition. There is a lot of shit wrong with this country, but being a police state is not one of them. It's not the government but the culture. Of course an elected government is a manifestation of the culture.

We are a culture that glorifies competition over cooperation. We prefer to privatize services rather than sponsor them. We hate taxes. We love lotteries. We choose religion over science. We say we love freedom but we'd rather incarcerate a man than address a deep social problem. You can count on us to bring a gun to a debate. We're tough on blue collar criminals but easy on root causes of crime.

These are the policies that politicians run on. These are the policies that get them elected. We're the one's that voted for the war on drugs; we're the ones who voted to get tough on crime (perhaps not you personally-certainly not me- but that is exactly what the electorate wanted). I'm not surprised to find our schools deteriorating, our rivers polluted, our populace maimed with stray bullets from the guns of private citizens, our pensions raided, our bankers getting bigger bonuses than ever, our prisons (more numerous than almost any other nation's in the world) full to overflowing. I'm not surprised because these are the natural consequences of the policies that seem to appeal to the American voter.

The problem doesn't lie with The Other. It's not the government per se. We are the government. The Other is Us. The problem is us. We're not a compassionate nor a thoughtful people. We don't usually vote for compassion nor for thoughtfulness. We want to be tough. Tough on crime. Tough on drugs. Tough on terrorists. Tough lazy louts who won't work for a living. Tough on immigration. Tough on everything. That's what we got...not a police state...just a tough, tough government that mirrors our collective soul and every blemish.

[the_unnatural]

Collecting DNA at checkpoints. Seizing property of people charged with no crime. Busting down the doors of tomato growers. Nope--nothing like a police state.

You obviously choose to ignore any of the stories I've linked. Go ahead--fixate on the snowball and rant away. I'm done with you.

[trish]

Obviously you chose to ignore the very definition of a police state: a state where the executive has totalitarian power. Obviously you chose to ignore the fact that our executive branch as the opposite of totalitarian power over the Congress. Obviously you chose to ignore the fact that you can complain in a public forum about living in a police state without getting your ass hauled off to jail. Obviously you chose to ignore that all the infractions of which you complain are a direct result of policies the electorate voted for. These are not characteristics of a police state. They are the characteristics of an ignorant, small minded electorate.

You want a government that’s tough on crime, you’ll get prisons. You want tough on undocumented immigrants you’ll get searches and ID checks. You want tough on drugs, you’ll get more searches. You want tough on terrorists, you’ll get wire-tapping. You want security, you’ll get airport searches and full body X-rays. You get the consequences of what you vote for. You want free and unregulated enterprise, you’ll get jobs with no pensions and slave wages. You want stand-your-ground laws you’ll get more shoot-outs.

You want to provide safety nets, diminish poverty, encourage learning and research, clean air and water, a safe food supply, public lands all can enjoy, highways, bridges, dams, disaster money for regions hit by fire and flood, you want firemen, 911 services, etc. etc. Then you’ll get some taxes.

Ouch! Forget taxes! How much is the tough-on-every government?

[the_unnatural]

Great points, Trish. All of them.

You are quite the debatetrix.

[TempestTS]

A shit storm of paranoia is turning so many Americans into lunatics.

There is no such thing as paranoia. Your worst fears can come true at any moment - Hunter S Thompson

[TempestTS]

Seems more than half the black population of this Nation has been behind bars since the seventies. (Before that they were being lynched and murdered by the KKK). But let a white man's car be subject to search on the reasonable assumption it may contain drugs and BAM...we're living in a giant police state. [/QUOTE]

No Im talking about what the government is doing to all people - especially the black population. BTW Im part Cherokee - please ask me some time what the government did to far more than half of my people. And on that note my tribe was told that we were paranoid, there was nothing to worry about... told not to fight back, not to question - until it was far too late for it to do any good.

Do we live in a police state? In a police state, complete totalitarian control resides with the executive. Anyone makes the executive unhappy and they’re disappeared. OH MY GOD! That’s what happened to Eric Cantor!! That explains why all three branches of government seem to be acting together in machine like lockstep. It's a giant fucking snowballing police state!!!!

Actually its fast becoming one and if you look at the rate that our rights have been eroded yes its the "snowball" effect. And yes people are disappeared - NDAA declares the whole country a battleground in the war on terror authorizes "indefinite detention" of anyone suspected of being part of a terror plot - without defining what that means. Not to mention a "War on Terror" is a forever war - there will never be a winner or a loser, no one can claim victory and it will never ever end. "but Nobody's disappeared" Ill save you the time of that argument - if someone is vanished how would you ever know? - how would you prove it?

No. We don't live in a police state. We don't come anywhere near the definition. There is a lot of shit wrong with this country, but being a police state is not one of them. It's not the government but the culture. Of course an elected government is a manifestation of the culture.

We are a culture that glorifies competition over cooperation. We prefer to privatize services rather than sponsor them. We hate taxes. We love lotteries. We choose religion over science. We say we love freedom but we'd rather incarcerate a man than address a deep social problem. You can count on us to bring a gun to a debate. We're tough on blue collar criminals but easy on root causes of crime.

And I couldnt agree more with that statement - we kick in the door for a nickel bag of pot and spend 12 MILLION $$$ to raid Tommy Chong a 1970's comedian for selling glass bongs. AKA police state

These are the policies that politicians run on. These are the policies that get them elected. We're the one's that voted for the war on drugs; we're the ones who voted to get tough on crime (perhaps not you personally-certainly not me- but that is exactly what the electorate wanted). I'm not surprised to find our schools deteriorating, our rivers polluted, our populace maimed with stray bullets from the guns of private citizens, our pensions raided, our bankers getting bigger bonuses than ever, our prisons (more numerous than almost any other nation's in the world) full to overflowing. I'm not surprised because these are the natural consequences of the policies that seem to appeal to the American voter.

The problem doesn't lie with The Other. It's not the government per se. We are the government. The Other is Us. The problem is us. We're not a compassionate nor a thoughtful people. We don't usually vote for compassion nor for thoughtfulness. We want to be tough. Tough on crime. Tough on drugs. Tough on terrorists. Tough lazy louts who won't work for a living. Tough on immigration. Tough on everything. That's what we got...not a police state...just a tough, tough government that mirrors our collective soul and every blemish.

Correct the problem lies with us - we are to blame completely - the government took control through fear and we all bought into it - tough on crime because criminals are scary - touch on drugs because smoking Reefer drives you insane - Tough on Terror because we cant let them win so guy buy another big mac - tough on security because we need to keep all those terrorists posing as punk rock bands from getting on the airplane -

now let me drop the sarcasm here - we let the last hope of holding on to our freedom trickle through our fingers over 50 years ago and we as a people can be convinced to be afraid of our own shadow at the drop of a hat so we progressively voted in a government that purposed stronger and stronger civilian authority to protect us against whatever ghost we were most scared of a the time. And that my dear is historically how ever police state gains power.

We fucked up - we threw our freedom away - where you and I differ is in thinking that a little ink in the right check box is going to ever bring it back.

[TempestTS]

Obviously you chose to ignore the very definition of a police state: a state where the executive has totalitarian power. Obviously you chose to ignore the fact that our executive branch as the opposite of totalitarian power over the Congress. Obviously you chose to ignore the fact that you can complain in a public forum about living in a police state without getting your ass hauled off to jail. Obviously you chose to ignore that all the infractions of which you complain are a direct result of policies the electorate voted for. These are not characteristics of a police state. They are the characteristics of an ignorant, small minded electorate.

You want a government that’s tough on crime, you’ll get prisons. You want tough on undocumented immigrants you’ll get searches and ID checks. You want tough on drugs, you’ll get more searches. You want tough on terrorists, you’ll get wire-tapping. You want security, you’ll get airport searches and full body X-rays. You get the consequences of what you vote for. You want free and unregulated enterprise, you’ll get jobs with no pensions and slave wages. You want stand-your-ground laws you’ll get more shoot-outs.

You want to provide safety nets, diminish poverty, encourage learning and research, clean air and water, a safe food supply, public lands all can enjoy, highways, bridges, dams, disaster money for regions hit by fire and flood, you want firemen, 911 services, etc. etc. Then you’ll get some taxes.

Ouch! Forget taxes! How much is the tough-on-every government?

you define a police state to the extreme - I define ours as one still a bit more subtle than that but growing daily.

I pay my taxes - no problem with that - I just question what they are spent on - here is a little trivia - last year we spent 7.4 billion on the failed F35 fighter alone - that same amount could would have been enough to provide homes, food and medical assistance to every single homeless person in our country with ample money to spare.

Freedom to talk on a forum without the police knocking down my door - nope they havent done it yet but with the money pouring into internet surveillance of all types I will guarantee my name is on a list somewhere just like yours is for taking part in this discussion. Another little trivia bit - I dont just do porn and rock n roll - my "day to day" gig is as a network engineer - any guesses who has approached me more than once to work on a "homeland" project.

[broncofan]

you define a police state to the extreme -

That's because the terminology you used is extreme. The Soviet Union during Stalin's reign was a police state because the ruling party exerted near total control over all political and economic life. People were regularly made to disappear based on the barest of suspicions. The suspicions themselves were over actions such as dissent, an indictment based purely on subversive thoughts without any affirmative act at all. That you would even attempt to conflate the present situation in the U.S with that most ghastly of historical examples was destructive to your credibility ab initio.

North Korea? Nazi Germany? Have you seen a concentration camp? A gulag? A prison camp in North Korea?

[broncofan]

Freedom to talk on a forum without the police knocking down my door - nope they havent done it yet but with the money pouring into internet surveillance of all types I will guarantee my name is on a list somewhere just like yours is for taking part in this discussion.

When you say guarantee, do you mean guarantee, or simply that you believe it might be the case? Because guarantee means it is a certainty. If it's just your opinion or you think it's a strong probability based on your judgment, that's not really a guarantee.