Fuck the Police State

[buttslinger]

I tried to reply earlier and it got lost in cyberspace, but I'll respond to Stavros.
As a tax paying citizen it makes much more sense to throw a guy in jail who pays for his 24/7 party lifestyle with crime, rather than a middle class guy who sniffs cocaine on the weekend.
Part of the reason Donald Trump is getting such rave reviews is many people want a President who will use the Police Force to do what they can't: confront a Mexican in 7-11 and ask him for documentation. Or drive some SWAT teams into the ghetto and take out the trash.
So no, on paper the taxpayer doesn't exactly make money locking up an inner city youth, but IV DRUG USER Tyrone probably has three kids he doesn't support, is at great risk of contracting AIDS, steals everything he can, and basically lets whitey clean up his mess.

Even in a bad neighborhood, the majority of people pay property taxes, hold down one or two jobs, and are tight with their families. But they all have bars on their windows because of a bad element that takes and takes and doesn't give. So putting them in jail is kind of like getting a much better return for your money than some white guy who shoots his wife.

[broncofan]

But what you're recommending isn't working. We incarcerate people for minor crimes but because we have a Constitution and can't hold people indefinitely because we think they're going to become career criminals they are then released. Even if they want a second chance they can't get one because they have a conviction on their record. I can't think of a worse way to manage our country than to incarcerate people for minor crimes and give them no road back to making a living.

On paper we lose money locking people up....and we keep them from ever being self-sufficient again. I can't see how that helps anyone or anything. And if we don't lock up the middle class guy who snorts cocaine we shouldn't lock anyone else up for it either. Selective enforcement of the laws breeds distrust.

[broncofan]

Part of the reason Donald Trump is getting such rave reviews is many people want a President who will use the Police Force to do what they can't: confront a Mexican in 7-11 and ask him for documentation.

Low hanging fruit, but I will point out that there are literally millions of people who are of Mexican heritage but U.S. citizens. Not even naturalized citizens but in many cases citizens at birth. You can't have police officers go up to anyone who's of Mexican descent and start harassing them. If that view makes a person popular we're all in a lot of trouble.

[buttslinger]

I'm telling you, black folks that come out of Church and see drug dealers and whores on the sidewalk side with me on this.
How can you say checking Mexican's green cards offends the Nation and millions of illegal inhabitants doesn't?

[broncofan]

How do I know who sides with you? I'm sure black folks leaving church love you, but that's not really the issue. I'm just saying I don't think selectively prosecuting people for minor offenses to bulk up their rap sheet does anyone a service. If someone commits a minor crime in their early 20's their life shouldn't be over.

Interrogating people on the sole basis that they're hispanic is not police work. There's a difference between generalized suspicion and particularized suspicion. I don't think the cost of harassing people based solely on their background is worth the benefit of capturing a handful of illegal immigrants.

[Stavros]

I tried to reply earlier and it got lost in cyberspace, but I'll respond to Stavros.
As a tax paying citizen it makes much more sense to throw a guy in jail who pays for his 24/7 party lifestyle with crime, rather than a middle class guy who sniffs cocaine on the weekend.
Part of the reason Donald Trump is getting such rave reviews is many people want a President who will use the Police Force to do what they can't: confront a Mexican in 7-11 and ask him for documentation. Or drive some SWAT teams into the ghetto and take out the trash.
So no, on paper the taxpayer doesn't exactly make money locking up an inner city youth, but IV DRUG USER Tyrone probably has three kids he doesn't support, is at great risk of contracting AIDS, steals everything he can, and basically lets whitey clean up his mess.

Even in a bad neighborhood, the majority of people pay property taxes, hold down one or two jobs, and are tight with their families. But they all have bars on their windows because of a bad element that takes and takes and doesn't give. So putting them in jail is kind of like getting a much better return for your money than some white guy who shoots his wife.

As I am not an American and don't live there I can't really say much more -I am not sure how many people who make a living selling dope are living a 24/7 party lifestyle, that sounds to me like Miami Vice rather than The Wire; but as Broncofan has eloquently put it, the economic case for incarceration has not been made, if anything, it is making the situation worse. One only hopes that this will be debated by candidates who seek to be your President over the next year or so.

[buttslinger]

Millions of illegal aliens, .....residential neighborhoods with bars on the windows, these were not the idea of THE POLICE STATE, they result from people who want to take things that are not theirs.
I assure you that THE POLICE STATE understands that most Hispanics are really nice people and probably work harder than both whites or blacks. And that a poor black kid never caught a break in his life.
THE POLICE STATE knows that not only are Prisons expensive, they are overpopulated.

There are two ways to approach this-
the people in jail are scum
the cops are scum

It's not enough to say that what the police are doing is wrong, you have to come up with a plan that actually solves the problem. You don't want Nazi brownshirts kicking down doors at 3AM, but you don't want Jesus as Chief of Police, either. I assure you uncategorically that whatever plan you come up with, the criminal element will immediately start examining it for weaknesses and opportunities to exploit.

While you don't want to ruin some kids life forever because his friends are assholes, you don't want law abiding citizens to suffer because Tyrone and his homies decided it would be fun to break into all the cars in the street.

Just like when you take a Mexican back to Mexico and he comes right back, when you put Tyrone in jail for just six months, he starts bangin' as soon as he gets out.

I GUARANTEE you the way "WE" are doing it now is woeful. But please don't mistake the inner city for Mayberry and Tyrone for Otis.
If you are a teacher- who are you going to spend most of your limited time with....the A students, or the F students? You remember the F students in school, don't you?

[stimpy17]

Well "Hope and change" is what the man said he wanted to give us, I didn't vote for him.

[trish]

You have to accept it before you get it. Too many aren't yet ready. (BTW, where's Ted Cruz's birth certificate?)

[broncofan]

I have to say that's a more lucid post from you buttslinger (I don't mean that to be condescending even if it sounds that way). But don't you think that's a little extreme...I can't criticize the way our criminal justice system operates unless I come up with a comprehensive alternative? How about not doing the things that don't work...that's always the implied alternative.

I think there are hints of what we should do in this thread: a) a living wage, b) better programs to integrate ex-cons back into society, c) police officers who don't demand people behave like bootlickers because it makes them feel important and punish them if they don't, d) not rushing to incarcerate young adults the first time they screw up.

I agree with you that we should be tough on certain types of crime. If we do a better job of giving people a stake in this society, you still are left with gang violence. You still are left with illegal immigrants who don't feel accountable to the society they live in and don't deserve to be here. I get that. But the idea of bearing down harder on everyone is not working. Lock up the people who commit armed robbery, murder, or who are part of a violent criminal enterprise. I'm all for it.

The last thing I'll say is that we are not left with the choice that either the cops are scum or the people are scum and that's why we have so many incarcerated people. We've made the conscious choice to punish "undesirables" in a way that other countries find counter-productive. We don't rehabilitate people with our institutions but rather wreck their lives.