Fuck the Police State

[TempestTS]

Spending on police protection has increased 445 percent since 1982 while The number of sworn police officers has only increased by 62%

I wonder where all that money is going - oh yeah tactical armaments

Seriously ??? ---> Broncofan - has nothing has changed with our police force is it just the same as in the 1960's - are you really expecting me to believe that or have you just convinced your self ?

[my my my!]

I'm sorry but this is one of the most asinine things I've ever read in this section. Because our country has a department dedicated to internal security, that makes it a police state? Only Nazi Germany and other police states have agencies or departments focused on domestic based threats? If you are going to choose a parallel, why not choose something that only the country you are making the comparison to has?

I am sure that just about every Western country and many Eastern ones have similar departments to deal with domestic terror threats. Would you like me to compile a list of agencies that handle terrorist threats in other countries? Edit: Wikipedia has already done it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter..._organizations

What's next, you're going to tell us that Nazi Germany also had an equivalent of the department of transportation and since we do to we're a police state?

Trish is also not saying that the United States must "slaughter muslims as approved policy" for our foreign policy to trouble her but if you are going to compare the United States to a country whose hallmark was liquidating its own citizens based on racial characteristics, then you should find actual points of comparison. The parallels should be a little tighter than "well they were aggressive and knew other countries might not like that aggressiveness..." This is not a basis for an analogy but a vague and unclear standard.

Finally, of course police aggression against protesters is wrong. The question is whether the directions have come from the top down. Are the protesters being dispersed because the government is trying to prevent their message from being spread or is it a regulation of the time, place, and manner of speech? Back in the 60's police officers used to use violence against protesters based on their message. If we are on a road to police statehood shouldn't the force used be getting worse?

BTW, the wiki list includes agencies aimed at both international and domestic safety.

The word asinine, and more appropriately "clueless" is your interpretation of things that have been said in this thread.

[TempestTS]

He said that only a country that is a police state necessitates an agency like the department of homeland security. You know before the department of homeland security was created, the FBI handled all domestic terror threats. It only made sense to separate those functions after a major attack on our homeland.

I am saying I don't think the actual violence police officers use in putting down what they view as disturbances has gotten worse. They may be more heavily armed to ward off threats, but vietnam war protests were often very violent, as were labor disputes, which frequently led to deaths in the early 20th century.

I agree the Vietnam protests were indeed violent - and look at how history turned out on that one - were the police in the Right ? hell no... did they say they were - oh you bet they did...

I have no problem with to separate departments - but why the hell has the NSA ballooned up freakishly fast - do you really want me to dredge up stats on this or are you willing to admit its gone overboard and gotten kinda crazy - I mean we are spending 5 MILLION dollars a month just hold the data from all the phone calls in Haiti - come on tell me thats not out of control?

[Prospero]

My My My's remarks are pretty naive. Comparisons with Nazi germany are totally spurious. Of course one should not be complacent about any political system. The UK has many,many things that are wrong - as does the US (Especially in its foreign policy - and the advance of the religious unthinking right and in issues of gun control) But no way is it heading towards the sort of totaliarianism of Nazi Germany of the Eastern bloc. It is paranoia ad the libertarian right that wants to create that notion for some dubious ends.

[trish]

Originally Posted by trish Well you heard here first. A cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.

Not what I said - not at all - now Im not sure I believe you were part of the occupy movement as you said you were.

Do I need to go over how powerful banks and corporations are and how strongly they influence elections yet again...

Have you so lost this debate that are left to misdirection and mockery to make your point?

You say we're a police state. My-my-my (that guy you say "totally gets it") defines a police state for us as one that "exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population." So I asked (and still do): In the case of the police state known as the U.S.A., who's exercising the police, a cabal of Wall Street bankers perhaps? Your immediate response is

Why yes - havent you heard what Ive been saying

Who is gathering power - banks and corporations - warned about by Thomas Jefferson and just as strongly by Eisenhower...

.

So your exact claim is that a cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.

That's logic. Not misdirection. You now see that the claim is worthy of mockery. So I will allow you to withdraw it. All you have to do is withdraw the claim that the U.S. is a police state, or pull back from the my-my-my's claim that a police state is one that exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population. BTW the definition was lifted from Wikipedia.

[TempestTS]

Originally Posted by trish Well you heard here first. A cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.



You say we're a police state. My-my-my (that guy you say "totally gets it") defines a police state for us as one that "exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population." So I asked (and still do): In the case of the police state known as the U.S.A., who's exercising the police, a cabal of Wall Street bankers perhaps? Your immediate response is

.

So your exact claim is that a cabal of Wall Street banks have taken over the nation's law enforcement agencies and are exercising rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.

That's logic. Not misdirection. You now see that the claim is worthy of mockery. So I will allow you to withdraw it. All you have to do is withdraw the claim that the U.S. is a police state, or pull back from the my-my-my's claim that a police state is one that exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population. BTW the definition was lifted from Wikipedia.

Still misdirection via inference to another persons statement and paraphrasing

I have no need to withdraw any claim since the counterclaim is baseless.

[my my my!]

My My My's remarks are pretty naive. Comparisons with Nazi germany are totally spurious. Of course one should not be complacent about any political system. The UK has many,many things that are wrong - as does the US (Especially in its foreign policy - and the advance of the religious unthinking right and in issues of gun control) But no way is it heading towards the sort of totaliarianism of Nazi Germany of the Eastern bloc. It is paranoia ad the libertarian right that wants to create that notion for some dubious ends.

They're not naive at all man.

I've studied Nazi Germany for more than 20 years. and Have lived all my 38 years in the USA.

For me, it is completely fair to point out the similarities and support others that do see similarities and the BEGINNING signs of the USA possibly becoming a police state in the future. Here where I live, the police get away with justified shootings quite often, as they are quite the trigger happy bunch. A border patrol agent, is now being sued for 15 million dollars, because a Mexican boy 10 years old threw a rock at him, and the border patrol agent's reaction was to shoot SEVERAL TIMES, into MEXICO. Fatally wounding the boy. Initially , he "got away with it" , as it was termed "self defense" . Not excesssive? Hmmm...

NEVER have I said, that the USA is EXACTLY like Nazi Germany, that I admit would be ludicrous.

You guys keep thinking I'm comparing them side by side and saying

Slaughtering of Jews: Germany check , USa Check
A central dictator: Germany check , Usa Check

I'm simply bringing up some warning signs, that if Left unchecked , could theoretically result in an actual police state. While my personal belief, is that the groundwork is already there, and it is in it's infant stages.

The USA might actually become the first country where a collective plebiscite unknowingly creates it's own police state. And they might totally be ok with it. And it might take 10-15 years before people finally call it a "police state" , But the theory is, that those same american will be totally content with it, since it will be in their "best interests" much like the German populace was happy (on the surface).

sorry , for you guys thinking I'm an idiot. but I ran these posts by several friends. And they agree, that you guys are stuck in some lala land and are failing to see the similarities because your mind blocks it. You are stuck in "Nazi germany really really really really bad" "USA , nice, but has bad stuff"

[trish]

So let’s see. You believe
1) The U.S. is a police state.
2) You just affirmed that “a police state exercises rigid and repressive controls over social, economic and political life of the population.” (At least you refused to distance yourself from this...the Wikipedia definition of a police state)
3) Your examples of police infraction include local, State and Federal police agencies.
4) Who’s directing the nation’s local, State, and Federal agencies to rigidly and repressively police our social, economic and political lives? Your answer: a cabal of Wall Street bankers.
5) But you disavow the statement: A cabal of Wall Street bankers is directing local, State and Federal enforcement agencies to rigidly and repressively police our social, economic and political lives. Indeed you seem to think it’s a mockery of your position. So much for modus ponens.

Instead of disbanding the Federal government, why don’t we work on identifying that cabal and send the militia after ‘em?

Speaking of drawing parallels with Nazi Germany, how about the tendency to blame the Nation's problems on a cabal of bankers?

[fred41]

Many of the local police forces in the major cities may look more intimidating because of the military style equipment they received...but to say they are more brutal than 30 years ago ?!...I've lived in one of the largest cities in the U.S.A. (N.Y.C) since I was seven...I'm 52....30 years ago the police were far more brutal (and corrupt)here even though crime was rampant...It doesn't even compare. Cases of police brutality will always exist due to the individual officer, bad supervision or an overall bad policy that often gets changed... through voting .

[TempestTS]

Many of the local police forces in the major cities may look more intimidating because of the military style equipment they received...but to say they are more brutal than 30 years ago ?!...I've lived in one of the largest cities in the U.S.A. (N.Y.C) since I was seven...I'm 52....30 years ago the police were far more brutal (and corrupt)here even though crime was rampant...It doesn't even compare. Cases of police brutality will always exist due to the individual officer, bad supervision or an overall bad policy that often gets changed... through voting .

Not sure who this is directed at but I dont believe I said the police are more brutal - I said the police force is far more powerful and better armed than it was 30 years ago to an absurd level -

seriously why do the police need to spend millions on 6 wheel armored personnel carriers? The number one expenditure request is currently Drones and covert surveillance for cell towers and computers (which dont require a warrant the same way a wire tap would)

yes the worst of the worst criminals are better armed too but no where near that level - when have you seen a gang member driving a scaled down tank? Hell our police force is has better personal battle armor than the forces we send into combat. Have our protests turned suddenly violent - is this down town Lebanon? Because thats what it looks like they are prepared to march into...

And its all costing us billions!

Who's it for? - who are we at war with here on our own soil ? nothing else would justify that kind of armament.

Remember police spending went up over 400% do you feel 4 times safer - I sure the hell dont

There's a line for providing law officers with the tools to do their job safely thats reasonable and that I would be completely in favor of - unfortunately that line is barely visible is so distant from what we are becoming today.