Fuck the Police State

[skybuddha]

completely nuts lol .

tldr ... so did the victims in the OP sue the state and get cash/justice for their alleged troubles ?

[TempestTS]

That's because the terminology you used is extreme. The Soviet Union during Stalin's reign was a police state because the ruling party exerted near total control over all political and economic life. People were regularly made to disappear based on the barest of suspicions. The suspicions themselves were over actions such as dissent, an indictment based purely on subversive thoughts without any affirmative act at all. That you would even attempt to conflate the present situation in the U.S with that most ghastly of historical examples was destructive to your credibility ab initio.

North Korea? Nazi Germany? Have you seen a concentration camp? A gulag? A prison camp in North Korea?

Yes I am well versed in the history of those autocracies as well as our own - as I stated before Im part Native American, Cherokee, my great Great grandmother was shipped to the Midwest on an orphan train - care to ask me why she was an orphan?

it all starts somewhere - that kind of control isnt an overnight happening - perhaps you could do with a history lesson yourself - none of those camps, gulags and prisons popped up over night - none were as horrible in the beginning as they became. What if you could go back and stop it before it got that way ? Would you? or would you hold your tongue because you might be called a dissident and considered subversive?

Once again if Im wrong there is absolutely nothing to worry about - Ill take being wrong any day - gladly

[Prospero]

I have the greatest of admiration and respect for you as a woman and as a musician and in other ways Tempest, but i think you have a rather warped view of things and clearly do not really understand the nature of a "police state."

Can I suggest that you try reading about the situation in Eastern Europe and especially East Germany before the collapse of communism where the Stasi spied on everyone (A good primer is the book "The Stasi Files" or the movie "The Lives of Others") consider the situation in North Korea now or in Rumania before the overthrow of Ceaucescu or under Stalin in Russia or Mao in China. Consider the treatment meted out to dissenters in modern iran or to those who fail to observe the religious rules in Saudi Arabia. These are real authoritarian police states. These are places where to even talk about the dictator could get you imprisoned, tortured or killed.

Yes the fate of the native Americans is a deep and terrible stain on the history of the USAbut that does not make the modern US a police state. It is one of the freest nations in the modern world - despite the dubious activities of the CIA and NSA. There is much that is wrong with the US. Many things that all Americans need to work to correct. But if you look at the past 50 years and the progress of ethnic minorities, the civl rights recoms, gay rights etc etc... and in the past decade the election of the first African American President then surely you can see that there is much that is good and positive about the US (even when it has slipped into aggression against foreign nations under your previous president George W Bush). Perhaps after your next election it might even have its first female president. All signs of progress. No nation is perfect. No system is perfect. But the US is closer than most to being a civilised and acceptable place.

In modern america where are the pogroms, where are the extermination camps, the gulags, the forced re-education of mililons, the mass vanishings of sectors of the population ?

[trish]

The German concentration camps sprang into existence all over Germany just weeks after Hitler became Chancellor, and the NAZI party usurped power. Storm troopers and local police in every province arrested anyone who was imagined to be a political opponent to the party and thrown into a detention camp, if not shot. Given the depressed state that Germany was in after WWI, this turn of events was, in hind sight, predictable; but at the time it was about as efficient and as sudden as one can imagine. These camps didn’t slowly evolve from resort hotels into dens of death and squalor. They pretty much sprang full blown into existence that way. It certainly didn’t take no fifty years which is the time span you keep bringing up when complaining about the U.S. becoming a “police state.”

It’s ludicrous to compare the U.S. to NAZI Germany. What U.S. political party is the analog of the NAZi party? The dems? The republicans? Which one is arresting and assassinating political opponents? (Which one is sending spies into the conferences of the opposition party? ) Who’s Hitler? What central figure is orchestrating the take over of this fantasy police state that we have to rise up and fight against? Obama? At the end of his second term he won’t have gotten half his appointments approved! Is it Boehner? How about the Koch brothers? Are they pulling all the strings? Certainly there is no overt political power in charge of this “police state.” It must be a shadow agency. The Illuminati perhaps? A cabal of Jewish, Wall Street bankers, maybe? Who is it? And if we dismember the government as you advise, why wouldn’t this shadow agency just step up and take over? What would stop it? What’s stopping it now, other than the fact that it doesn’t exist and anyone who would wield political power in the Nation at the current time ultimately has to win a majority of the electorate?

Ours is about as far as you can get from a police state. Police states are efficient and centrally controlled. If anything, our government is inefficient and somewhat dysfunctional.

You get what you vote for. You vote for policies that are tough on crime, you’re going to get prisons and police. You vote to get tough on immigrants you’re gonna get searches, and ID checks. You wanna get tough on terrorists you’re gonna get Homeland Security providing local police forces with all kinds of gear they never seen before except in movies__and they’re gonna find excuses to use it. The more people vote for get-tough-policies the more inexperienced police we’ll see on the street exercising bad judgment. You ask whether ink on paper can put a stop to this? Of course. Enough little ovals filled in with black marker can easily do it. Because we’re the shadow figures controlling the strings and making those silly politicians dance and say all the silly things they say.

[broncofan]

Yes I am well versed in the history of those autocracies as well as our own - as I stated before Im part Native American, Cherokee, my great Great grandmother was shipped to the Midwest on an orphan train - care to ask me why she was an orphan?

In all sincerity I am very sorry what happened to your family. The United States committed grave atrocities against the Native American people. It is a dark stain on American history and human history. That doesn't mean the U.S. is currently a police state and has restricted all political freedom or quashed dissent in the way you indicate.

I know of at least nine members of my family who died in extermination camps. They lived in occupied Europe during WWII, but not within Germany. But if you take a look at the Nuremberg Laws you can get a flavor for how quickly things went downhill in Nazi Germany. This was as early as 1935.
Nuremberg Laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

It's not as if one day the Germans were executing a no knock warrant looking for contraband and the next day Jews were forbidden from marrying those of German stock. Or that people's conversations were being monitored and then the next day they were sent to concentration camps. This was the ethos from the night of the long knives forward.

In North Korea, people are sent to prison camps for saying anything considered hostile to the regime. People are executed summarily, without any right of appeal, and often for crimes that no civilized society would consider capital (vandalism, burglary). Some argue that our system of capital punishment is barbaric, and I think it should be abolished, but a system that only allows execution for murder and has multiple layers of appeal is not on a slippery slope to midnight executions of political opponents.

In NK, people are forbidden from having contact with the outside world, forbidden from leaving the country, restricted in their movements around the country, forced to have abortions, persecuted for their religious beliefs (and I don't mean forced to sponsor health care that includes coverage for contraception), and systematically starved to death. If you are interested in how this came about in North Korea, take a look at Kim Il-Sung's reign over NK and his practical deification within that country. Though I am not an expert on their history, it does not appear to have been gradual. I simply fail to see how policies legitimately tailored to fighting crime and subjected to judicial review can transform into a cult of personality where a leader considered a deity and thought to control the weather starves and imprisons a terrified populace.

[my my my!]

.... about the U.S. becoming a “police state.”

It’s ludicrous to compare the U.S. to NAZI Germany. What U.S. political party is the analog of the NAZi party? The dems? The republicans? Which one is arresting and assassinating political opponents?

Ours is about as far as you can get from a police state. Police states are efficient and centrally controlled. If anything, our government is inefficient and somewhat dysfunctional.

It's not ludicrous. For the sake of discussion, bringing up striking similarities of the current USA to Nazi Controlled Germany are relevant.

- The Schutz Staffel which translated into it's political and police use, means Protection Department. Germany's Nazi Policies , were so blatantly aggressive and considered dangerous, that it was indeed needed to create a "Protection Department" to protect Germany and most notably , it's government and ideology.from people who did not agree with the government's policies domestically, or externally. The SS conducted assassinations and operations outside of Germany, prior to the start of military hostilities of World War 2

- Department of Homeland Security (notice even the similarity of the name to Protection Department?), was formed as a reaction to the 9/11 events. Seen at the surface, this appears to be a completely necessary move and was accepted by, although begrudgingly by some, most Americans.

these are facts except the part about the names being similar.

Now to the similarities.

- Both the SS and DHS, serve(d) a country, whose political , military and social behavior , were not agreed with internally and externally by opposition groups in other countries and within the countries. The DHS, was formed as a counter to the terrorism experienced by the USA, after 9/11. However, one must ask. Why is there terrorism in against/within the USA?

Well, like Germany during the Nazi Era, the USA , has a questionable foreign policy of protecting the best interests of the country. Sounds ludicrous? It's not. The USA , regardless if we agree or not (on this board) has been conducting a foreign policy that is not necessarily in the best interest of those affected. From the ill-advised invasions, assassinations, interventions and propaganda distributed in other countries, the USA is not far from Nazi Era Germany in terms of being regarded as an evil, meddling self serving country.

Nazi era Germany (and the USA since 2001) knew full well, that their foreign and internal policies, were being met with resistance, and sometimes violence.

This is NO DIFFERENT , to the USA's policies of about the last 30-40 years. Done under the guise of protecting American Interests.

What is the result of such policies, intervention and ideologies? Well, for the initiator, it seems righteous and like something that HAS TO BE DONE.

To the affected , it definitely does not feel like that. And some will be subjugated to the will of the government, and some will rebel, manifest or fight the oppression. The rebellion (the USA calls them insurgencies) against USA military occupations, propaganda, and interventions , is met with resistance from simple to demonstrations, to all out fighting.

The USA and Nazi era Germany, are two countries, whose questionable foreign policies and outward disregard for foreign and internal opinion, led them to create departments specifically for the purpose of protecting the country from before mentioned opponents.

The difference is, Nazi era German did it quicker. In the USA , it is a more gradual, perhaps not as open, evolution into a quasi-Police State such as Nazi era Germany.

The are other similarities. Such as the continuing erosion of certain civil rights (happened in germany). If you keep up with politics, and law changes, you can detect changes to basic civil rights, that were not there before, and nobody notices until it happens to them. The passing of the Patriot ACT is a blatant example of this. and the knee jerk reaction to 9/11.

also, escalated racial bias (muslims are a very maligned group, just like jews in germany, specially after 9/11), In germany, jews were seen as scum and the cause of Germany's World War 1 defeat.

expansion of law enforcement. Immediately after the Nazi's rise (through elections, although there's much speculation that these were tampered with), Polizei , Gestapo , Sicherheitsdienst and other offices of the SS sprung up all over Germany. Much like the DHS branches and new groups.

The overall anger at 9/11 and other anti-American and western ideal terrorist attacks, have created a NEED TO ESTABLISH such a system. Much like Germany's situation before WW2. People want protection. That's understood. But these two governments , have created so much international and domestic discord, that they cannot function without those "protection departments"

The POLICE STATE in Germany , was not overnight. It took years of development. It was not an overnight process, although in real terms, it was alot faster than the USA's approach towards becoming a police state.

The inclinations, and similarities are there. Is the USA ALREADY A POLICE STATE (as compared to Full Nazi Power era Germany)?

No, I would say it's definitely in the beginning stages of it.

USA's foreign and domestic policy(perhaps as far back as post WW2 policies) is the root cause of terrorism and attacks, internally or externally, or originating externally (9/11) against the United States of America.

Germany did the same. For years they had outward expansionism, and were met with internal (Germans against the Nazis) as well as external opposition (obvious , nations or peoples that did not want Nazi influence or occupation)
Sound familliar? That's because it is, The USA has been doing the exact same thing (although with a different approach). All to defend, expand, and protect the American Way. Much like Germany did.

The POLICE STATE in the USA has already started. And as long as the Judeo-Christian-Western Allies continue to impose their will on the people's of other countries, the USA will find itself in a constant state of protecting themselves from those who do not agree with it, be it internally, externally, of American descent or from foreign origin.

The article presented by Tempest is just one of thousands of examples from the last 13 years of so, of people losing some of their basic constitutionally protected rights.


From that perspective, the USA now , and Germany then , do have too many striking similarities.

Not ludicrous at all to compare them , In my opinion.

I'm not saying the USA's policies have been wrong. But , there's a reason why those groups , internal and external "HATE" the USA and act on it through sometimes violent means. And the reason is, they have a different viewpoint. And when people have different viewpoints to what their or another government's viewpoint is, they're not always discussed in a forum such as this.

[my my my!]

this was meant as an edit to my other post , but it didn't let me:

The article presented by Tempest is just one of thousands of examples from the last 13 years of so, of people losing some of their basic constitutionally protected rights albeit momentarily and not in all cases permanently. The laws are really vague to the average american citizen, and most people do not have the time and resources to sue, fight , or question these violations in a court of law, meaning the Police usually win, hence to why it appearing to be very "Police State" like.

As a result , American citizens are experiencing this in the form of police brutality, and disregard for basic civil rights. Much like German citizens under Nazi Rule.

The Nazi party cannot be compared to the Dems, or GOP, the Nazi party is more like the entire congress and their leader, with a a paranoid public willing to lose some of their liberties in the name of security (much like what "normal" german citizens did under the Nazi Government)

[Prospero]

My my my. I like you but that is utter bilge.

[my my my!]

My my my. I like you but that is utter bilge.

I like you as a person as well btw .

But, that's your prerogative and right to express what you did.

However, the Similarities, are there

Outward , supposedly "justified" acts of war against sovereign nations are there for both.

the erosion of civil liberties, and increase in police brutality and scare tactics are there for both.

implied, and expressed hatred and disregard for an entire group or groups are there for both.

the need to create a self protection department, apart from each nation's military, due to questionable and outright aggressive foreign policy are there for both.

If you don't see this. perhaps you need to live here in the good ol USA for years, to see the actual differences from 30 years ago to now.

Is the USA, putting Muslims in concentration camps. NO, hell no!

But it is a nuke in a major american city away from doing it.

And the police, yes. I live here, and they're definitely more brutal and unobservant of your rights since 9/11.

anything to add?

[trish]

In the case of Germany, it’s easy to point to the single power that usurped political control: the NAZI Party and their fuehrer, Adolf Hitler. There is no central power behind the so-called “police state” which you claim is the U.S. has becoming. By definition, in a police state there is a central power that maintains its political control principally through the utilization of the domestic police. Who’s doing this? Whose political power depends upon the police?

Unlike NAZI Germany, our foreign incursions (for good or ill) were carried out with loud support from the electorate. Despite the opposition of many Democrats, the Iran invasion was immensely popular with the electorate. Bush was re-elected. He didn’t use a domestic police force to stay in power for a second term.

Cantor lost his office because the primary voters thought he was too soft on immigrants. Obama too is taking heat for being too soft on immigrants. There no despot amassing police and guards at our southern border unless the electorate counts as a gang of despots.

That internal policies sometimes meet with resistance is no surprise in any country, whether it be a democratic-republic, a communist state or a fascist. That domestic policies meet resistance can hardly be called a parallel between the U.S. and NAZI Germany. That you list it as such tells me you’re argument is not very discriminating. Ditto foreign policies.

The Patriot Act, which I publicly protested, was defended vociferously and almost unanimously by Republicans when it was signed by Bush. But the power of the Republican party is not even close to becoming the monolithic iron fist that was the NAZI party. Moreover, I was not arrested for my protest. However much you dislike it, the Patriot Act is not the tool of a single party to maintain political control.

Yes there is a lot of prejudice in this country directed against Muslims. Yet it has not found a friendly reception within any branch of our government. President Bush was emphatic that we should refrain from blaming Muslims for 9-11, there have been no laws disenfranchising Muslims and religious freedom has been upheld by our courts. Attempts by enforcement agencies to profile Muslims have met opposition by the general populace and all branches of government. Not what would be expected in a police state.

You say our policies over the last 30-40 years are NO DIFFERENT from those of the NAZI era Germany. That’s simply ludicrous on the face of it! You say the the police state in Germany did not occur overnight, yet it did. It certainly didn’t take 30-40 years. The reason is that the police state in Germany was the result of a government take-over by a single monolithic party. That is an essential element of a police state. The power in a police state is wielded by an efficient centralized depot. Who or what, over the last 30-40 years, do you propose has been growing the roots and tentacles of power and is about to reveal themselves as our supreme leader? Who? Who are we supposed to rise against?

So where does this the-U.S.-is-a-police-state meme and the your-vote-doesn’t-count meme come from? It plays right into the ideology of the small-government and no-government conservatives, libertarians and gun nuts. You may or may not subscribe to these sophomoric political philosophies, but if you think the U.S. is a police state or that people shouldn’t bother voting ‘cause your vote doesn’t count, then your have been exposed to their viral memes and contracted the disease. Seek professional care.

We are the government. They are are two separate entities.