Fuck the Police State

[buttslinger]

For every black person that is wrongfully pulled over by a cop, there are fifty that are rightfully pulled over by a cop. And every one protests their innocence.
In theory I agree with you, but in practice, reading the Constitution to a cop during a traffic stop is just going to get you more tickets, and none of these people getting killed in the news lately were Mahatma Gandhi or Rosa Parks, they were petty criminals who died because they DISSED the guy with the gun and badge. The Police are professionals and above getting dissed. They're usually above you on the ground slapping cuffs on your wrists. If you want to be a crusader go fight ISIS or join the PEACE CORPS. Running into a bad cop is just like running over a nail. Arguing with a nail will get you the same amount of justice as arguing with a cop.

[fred41]

There's nothing wrong with standing up for your constitutional rights, but there are more prudent ways and moments to do that. Taking a name and badge number and filing a complaint makes perfect sense....but I understand when emotionally we do shit that isn't always the safest route. Sometimes we're just tired. Arguing with a guy who has a gun isn't always the wisest course. You only know that he has a badge...you don't know how much time he has on the job...you don't know if his wife just left with his kids...you don't know if today was the day he discovered he was Bi-polar....you only know that he has a gun, and at the moment, you don't.
her traffic stop could have been totally legitimate...so far I haven't seen the ruling on that...But yanking her out of her car?! That's just nuts. if he ran her license then he probably would have seen some unpaid fines and shit but do you really want to put a young woman in jail over an argument...I know I wouldn't. At worst he could've just written her an actual summons if he wanted to...which of course, may also have escalated the moment , but maybe not.

This was a real train wreck. a horrible tragedy. I almost want someone to have killed her because suicide seems almost impossible. But maybe in total...it was all too much. Getting arrested, spending several days in jail for bullshit, probably losing a job that she just got, maybe she suffered from depression to begin with (there seems to be some evidence that she may have been a cutter)...I don't know. She also seemed perfectly docile in the facility footage...so it's not like she was over the top argumentative.

Yes...her standing up for her rights may have gotten a bad cop off the road...and she can be thanked by all the future bad arrests he won't make.
But at the end of the day, a beautiful young woman is dead...
and if she was my daughter, I'd grieve and be proud that she stood up for her rights.
but I'd also wish the fuck she was alive ...and secretly wish she would've just taken the warning.
it doesn't make us sheep.

[buttslinger]

and if she was my daughter, I'd grieve...

Freddy, if she was your daughter she'd be bailed out five minutes after she called you from the police station, and the grieving process would have lasted a little bit longer than the five minutes it took Mom to call Johnnie Cochran.
There is a segment of the black population that looks at Justice completely different than White Man's Justice. That's a problem. Maybe that's THE problem.
White people presume the Justice System is going to have a 5% fuck-up zone.
Black people presume the system has a 95% fuck-up zone. WORD!!

[Cuchulain]

Ya know buttslinger, you've got some of that same bullshit going on that cops use to muddy the water after they are caught misbehaving. They always try to make the victim look bad. Dissing an officer or being a petty criminal doesn't justify being shot, tased, pepper sprayed, beaten or falsely arrested. It's not just a Black thing either. Darker folks get targeted more often but it happens to white folk too.

Is there any point at which you WOULD assert your rights? If pulled over, do you answer all the garbage questions cops ask, like where you coming from, where you headed, where do you work, etc? How about if they ask to search your car? Suppose you're merely a passenger in the vehicle or just stopped walking down the street. Would you answer questions, provide ID? How about police at your home? Would you let them enter, or search without a warrant? Would you ever pull out your camera?

Btw, calmly asserting your rights when dealing with police is not the same thing as arguing with them, nor does it make one a "crusader". I tend to think it makes us good citizens.

[broncofan]

I don't blame Sandra Bland as she was clearly the victim of an officious, bullying officer. The officer had no right to tell her to put out her cigarette. But if I were asked by a police officer to put out a cigarette, would I? I'm almost certain I would. That is not a judgment of her...but I really would not want to piss off an officer over something that does not mean very much to me.

I have been asked to exit my vehicle when I posed no threat whatsoever to anyone on two occasions. On one of the occasions the officer was clearly unstable and told me one of his fellow officers had died a week prior because someone was driving exactly how I was driving. But in the end he didn't tell me how I was driving or end up citing me. He calmed down and let me go.

I understand the risks are greater for African-Americans. But I simply would not argue with a police officer. If an officer asked to search my car I might say no. I know they are not allowed to use the assertion of my constitutional rights as probable cause to justify a search they didn't have cause for to begin with. But then again, if I thought it would be more expedient, I might say yes, believing the search of my car doesn't really invade my privacy. Typically when I'm pulled over my first goal is to get through the interaction and avoid getting a ticket.

By the way, none of what I'm saying mean people who have been arrested without cause or shot are not victims. I am only talking about my own personal policy when dealing with armed officers.

[broncofan]

Cuchulain,
You sort of ask where the slippery slope ends. It's a fair question. If you're not willing to assert your rights over small matters, when will you? I would not let an officer into my home without a warrant. I would not submit to a body cavity search if I was not in custody. Not to be gross, but these are the two things I can think of.

I probably would allow an officer to search my car. If an officer had some trumped up reason for wanting to take me for a station house arrest I would go along rather than get into a physical altercation. Officers violate the constitution every day. That doesn't justify it...when the constitution is violated evidence can't be used against you at trial. The fact that this is the remedy means that some line-crossing is contemplated...invasive searches, premature arrests. The real violation I would be trying to avoid with an officer is the one that can't be remedied. If they shoot you, you never get due process. Again, they would be at fault, but there are ways of minimizing risk when dealing with people who don't seem quite right and are armed.

[buttslinger]

Ya know buttslinger,.....
Is there any point at which you WOULD assert your rights?
Btw, calmly asserting your rights when dealing with police is not the same thing as arguing with them, nor does it make one a "crusader". I tend to think it makes us good citizens.

Unfortune-ately, any time the Po-Po appear in my life, it's when I'm actually not a very good citizen, in fact I'm kind of a PUNK.
It hurts my brain to try and remember the countless dealings I've had with the police on the side of the road, or whatever. Usually, it's some variation of me going fifteen miles per hour over the speed limit. No discussion necessary.
One Time, and I think it was only one time a cop accused me of doing something I didn't do, and yeah, I started going off in his face, and he just turned around and walked away.
I try to put myself in the cop's shoes and look at it from his side. The Police don't consider what they do a GAME, but I admit for me it's just kind of a cat and mouse game where I am the mouse and the cop is the cat. And if some kind of JUDGE or impartial ARBITER had been available in my traffic stops, I'd probably be in jail now. The cops cut me lots of breaks.

As far as a Sandra Bland type deal, one time I threw a pen at a cop after I signed the speeding ticket, I got caught in a speed trap trying to avoid bumper to bumper traffic and I was in a REAL bad mood. . TWO DAYS later the cop shows up at my job by complete coincidence, he was real nice and I felt embarrassed.

You can't fault the cops because we live in a racist society. The cops don't target jigs, they target CRIMINALS.
You can debate what a criminal is, especially since so many guys in jail are in there for smoking pot.
You can debate whether or not a guy who goes to work all week has the right to have a few drinks on Saturday Night and drive home.
But when a cop asks you for your license and registration, there's no debate, you give it to him.

[trish]

The cops don't target jigs, they target CRIMINALS.

That may be the official line, but you’re out of touch if you believe to be true of all ‘cops.’ Being pulled over for driving while black is a real and frequent phenomenon.

Like I said above, I personally am always polite and act respectfully toward the police, even when I know I’ve been pulled over for no reason at all.

“What’s that bag on the floor?”
“It’s a bottle of eyeliner and some nylon footies I just bought at the pharmacy, officer. Shall I retrieve it for you, Sir?”

When I hand him the bag, I’m nervous, 'cause I’m never absolutely sure he won’t drop some weed in it and claim it’s mine. Shit happens, and these days I’m can’t be sure I won’t be shot “tryin’ to get away.”

Of course, there are police officers I don’t have to pretend to respect - because I do respect them. In fact, most of the ones I've come to know...but not all. The percentage who can’t be trusted seems to be alarmingly high.

when a cop asks you for your license and registration, there's no debate, you give it to him.

True as far as it goes. But the penalty for debate isn't death. I would like to hear you say it’s not victim’s fault that he’s now slumped behind the wheel and bleeding out. The full responsibility lies with the officer who pulled his weapon and shot someone because he was - what? Who knows what? Pissed off? Scared shitless of black people? High? On a lark? What?

In the recent Cincinnati case, a driver was shot by a campus policeman. When you were college age, did the campus police carry guns?

A decade ago police organizations endorsed firearm regulation and argued against concealed carry. But today, many take the opposite stance. I haven’t researched this (maybe others in the know can disabuse me) but my theory is that over the last decade or so, the new recruits who have been percolating up the ranks tend to be conservative and tend to be part of the gun culture. It seems to me, from the vids that we been seeing, that many police have gun dependency issues: they too often escalate rather than defuse conflict and too soon reach for their firearms.

[yodajazz]

Unfortune-ately, any time the Po-Po appear in my life, it's when I'm actually not a very good citizen, in fact I'm kind of a PUNK.
It hurts my brain to try and remember the countless dealings I've had with the police on the side of the road, or whatever. Usually, it's some variation of me going fifteen miles per hour over the speed limit. No discussion necessary.
One Time, and I think it was only one time a cop accused me of doing something I didn't do, and yeah, I started going off in his face, and he just turned around and walked away.
I try to put myself in the cop's shoes and look at it from his side. The Police don't consider what they do a GAME, but I admit for me it's just kind of a cat and mouse game where I am the mouse and the cop is the cat. And if some kind of JUDGE or impartial ARBITER had been available in my traffic stops, I'd probably be in jail now. The cops cut me lots of breaks.

As far as a Sandra Bland type deal, one time I threw a pen at a cop after I signed the speeding ticket, I got caught in a speed trap trying to avoid bumper to bumper traffic and I was in a REAL bad mood. . TWO DAYS later the cop shows up at my job by complete coincidence, he was real nice and I felt embarrassed.

You can't fault the cops because we live in a racist society. The cops don't target jigs, they target CRIMINALS.
You can debate what a criminal is, especially since so many guys in jail are in there for smoking pot.
You can debate whether or not a guy who goes to work all week has the right to have a few drinks on Saturday Night and drive home.
But when a cop asks you for your license and registration, there's no debate, you give it to him.

Racism is hard to prove. They can always cite some other reason. One say they tend to have more vigorous, enforcement in poorer communities. This is why ghettos, and housing policies are important. Historically the federal government had some responsibility in maintaining restrictive housing practices. But here's one example; police consider it as possible suspicious activity to drive slowly in 'high crime' areas. And the stop people for that reason. I was pulled over once, and questioned why I was in the neighborhood,late at night, but I was picking up someone from work. But the police can always justify violence, by saying the other person assaulted them. There is one recent video where a policeman is saying relating to a stopped driver trying grab his weapon, when the video action appears much different. In the Walter Scott case the officer, claims he tried to grab his stun gun. There is video proof of police planting drug evidence. There is even a evidence of planting guns. All the need to do is keep a spare weapon that they confiscated from someone. The media often contributes. In the case of 12 year old Tamir Rice, a reporter published information on his parents legal issues. That has nothing to do with poor police tactics.

[fred41]

In the recent Cincinnati case, a driver was shot by a campus policeman. When you were college age, did the campus police carry guns?

I thought that was odd too. I can't tell you what I remember from my college age, since I never went to college, but I couldn't understand what the officer was doing making traffic stops. I pretty much assumed, probably like most of you, that campus police worked on campus grounds. In my mind, specialized law enforcement/security forces would be mostly limited to their jurisdictions because, to me, that makes the most sense. Why?...because in my opinion, though certain specialized police officers are sometimes better trained in their individual academies...they're never going to have the actual everyday training that you really can only gain in everyday on the street experience. Also..sometimes, at least in my view, the physical and emotional requirements are different.
But then I read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/01/us...lice.html?_r=0