Cliven Bundy

[trish]

A good post. I want to focus on this point because I think it's an important rebuttal for the overreaching, excessive force arguments. I think officials should try to use the least intrusive means necessary to prevent someone from breaking the law. You are talking about the local official who didn't enforce the federal law, but imo it's even a failure of the federal government's enforcement powers once violations had gone on for a while. And that's because they were not able to abate the illegal actions. This was not civil disobedience on the part of Bundy because he threatened to use force to protect his cattle.

I think people have a right not to comply with a law that violates a clearly established constitutional norm. That would be for instance if a state made abortion illegal, no matter how it was performed and when. You can't see from the face of the constitution that such an action would be unconstitutional, but there is clear precedent on the issue. The highest court in the land has ruled on that specific issue...not an ancillary issue but that issue. Of course, there would be limits to whether you could use force in resisting attempts to enforce that law. But at least you wouldn't be making this crazy argument that everyone is entitled to his own interpretation of the constitution regardless of how our judiciary has ruled. That's a recipe for anarchy.

Good argument, but my guess is that libertarians like Rand Paul and his pappy are too entrenched in their anti-everything-government stance to see it.

As to the local official who oversaw those Federal lands upon which Cliven was freeloading, who is she or he? Why don't we know? Shouldn't we be asking if there was any quid quo pro corruption going on here?

[broncofan]

As to the local official who oversaw those Federal lands upon which Cliven was freeloading, who is she or he? Why don't we know? Shouldn't we be asking if there was any quid quo pro corruption going on here?

That's a good question. I think they should treat this as a failure of the system (though not for the reason some think) and figure out from the ground up who wasn't doing his or her job.

[Turlington]

Cow pies

[trish]

"...treating Mr. Bundy as some kind of libertarian hero is, not to put too fine a point on it, crazy. Suppose he had been grazing his cattle on land belonging to one of his neighbors, and had refused to pay for the privilege. That would clearly have been theft — and brandishing guns when someone tried to stop the theft would have turned it into armed robbery. The fact that in this case the public owns the land shouldn’t make any difference."

"...today’s conservative leaders were raised on Ayn Rand’s novels and Ronald Reagan’s speeches (as opposed to his actual governance, which was a lot more flexible than the legend). They insist that the rights of private property are absolute, and that government is always the problem, never the solution.The trouble is that such beliefs are fundamentally indefensible in the modern world, which is rife with what economists call externalities — costs that private actions impose on others, but which people have no financial incentive to avoid. You might want, for example, to declare that what a farmer does on his own land is entirely his own business; but what if he uses pesticides that contaminate the water supply, or antibiotics that speed the evolution of drug-resistant microbes? You might want to declare that government intervention never helps; but who else can deal with such problems?
Well, one answer is denial — insistence that such problems aren’t real, that they’re invented by elitists who want to take away our freedom. And along with this anti-intellectualism goes a general dumbing-down, an exaltation of supposedly ordinary folks who don’t hold with this kind of stuff. Think of it as the right’s duck-dynastic moment.
You can see how Mr. Bundy, who came across as a straight-talking Marlboro Man, fit right into that mind-set. Unfortunately, he turned out to be a bit more straight-talking than expected."

___Paul Krugman

http://nyti.ms/1kazL22


....

[blakpadi]

Isn't there an island somewhere that these fucking clowns can just move to,not pay taxes,dress up Army everyday and walk around armed to the teeth while listening to Rush on a headset?

[blakpadi]

They could get split screen KittyKaiti live cam with Hannity @ 10EST -Kitty could do a helluva show with a double barrel shot gun in a Revolutionary period hat...

[kittyKaiti]

Suppose he had been grazing his cattle on land belonging to one of his neighbors, and had refused to pay for the privilege. That would clearly have been theft — and brandishing guns when someone tried to stop the theft would have turned it into armed robbery. The fact that in this case the public owns the land shouldn’t make any difference.[/I]"

Well, however, the land is not private land, bu taxpayer owned land. Land owned by the people, including Cliven Bundy, which gives him rightful authority to use. "Government land" does not exist, for the government is created by, for, and of humankind. This is not theft, nor armed robbery, but a human being and a tax payer claiming his lawful right as a citizen of the United States to access "public land" for the purpose of his cows to chew on grass.

but what if he uses pesticides that contaminate the water supply, or antibiotics that speed the evolution of drug-resistant microbes? You might want to declare that government intervention never helps; but who else can deal with such problems?

The utter hilarity of this bit is the fact that the U.S. Supreme Courts and the Food & Drug Administration have repeatedly authorized the use of Monsanto, Syngenta and other Big Agriculture industrialist corporations to use pesticides, herbicides, anti-bacterials, fertilizers, GMO's, and other synthetic bio-hazards on our food supply resulting in the increase in diseases such as cancers and Austism, and additives to our water supplies (fluoride and lithium), and to our medical technologies (mercury) known to cause Aspergers, Autism, etc that poison us everyday of our lives. Or the excessive use of vaccinations and antibiotics and anti-virals resulting in the drastic increase in drug-resistant super-bugs that kill thousands in hospitals annually like MERSA and others (drug resistant Chlamydia and Gonorrhea). So much for trustworthy federal government oversight of private industry.

They could get split screen KittyKaiti live cam with Hannity @ 10EST -Kitty could do a helluva show with a double barrel shot gun in a Revolutionary period hat...

Meh, double barrel shotguns are for Vice President Biden and his ingenious home defense safety ideas: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...ough-the-door/

I prefer my Smith & Wesson M&P15 AR-15 in 5.56x45 NATO for taking out home invaders.

[trish]

Well, however, the land is not private land, bu taxpayer owned land. Land owned by the people, including Cliven Bundy, which gives him rightful authority to use.

That's the stupidest thing I've heard in awhile. So do we all have the “rightful authority” to graze cattle, drill for oil or take a shit on any land that's government owned, or just those of us who take the "rightful authority" at gunpoint?
Notice Krugman didn’t say this was armed robbery. He said it would’ve been armed robbery had it been private property and the fact that it isn’t private property shouldn’t (but does) make a difference. I think it’s a fairly apt analogy, given that the first person here to make the armed theft analogy was Cliven himself who claimed the government was making a land grab at gunpoint! Now that’s pretty ridiculous since the government already owns the land and has since 1848.

The utter hilarity of this bit is the fact that the U.S. Supreme Courts and the Food & Drug Administration have repeatedly authorized the use of Monsanto, Syngenta and other Big Agriculture industrialist corporations to use pesticides, herbicides, anti-bacterials, fertilizers, GMO's,...

It’s not just industrialist corporations, but also family farmers as well who use pesticides, herbicides etc. manufactured by the likes of Monsanto. The utter hilarity of this is without government regulation all such products would be defacto authorized.

BTW mercury doesn’t cause autism and floride doesn’t contaminate your Purity Of Essence. I would, however, agree that the use of antibiotics by the ag industry should be regulated, but not by a private army at the point of the gun, but by Federal Agencies. First we have to get the conservatives and libertarians to agree that regulation of the ag-industry’s use of antibiotics is required. Fat chance, since they believe that with private ownership comes the right to do anything you fucking well want to do. Hell, you and Cliven think you can do anything you want even if you don't own the property, as long as its owned by taxpayers. Then there is the problem of enforcement, since you and Cliven think it perfectly fine to obstruct the enforcement of Federal law with an army of racist nitwits totting an arsenal loaded weapons.

[kittyKaiti]

It’s not just industrialist corporations, but also family farmers as well who use pesticides, herbicides etc. manufactured by the likes of Monsanto. The utter hilarity of this is without government regulation all such products would be defacto authorized.

BTW mercury doesn’t cause autism and floride doesn’t contaminate your Purity Of Essence. I would, however, agree that the use of antibiotics by the ag industry should be regulated, but not by a private army at the point of the gun, but by Federal Agencies. First we have to get the conservatives and libertarians to agree that regulation of the ag-industry’s use of antibiotics is required. Fat chance, since they believe that with private ownership comes the right to do anything you fucking well want to do. Hell, you and Cliven think you can do anything you want even if you don't own the property, as long as its owned by taxpayers. Then there is the problem of enforcement, since you and Cliven think it perfectly fine to obstruct the enforcement of Federal law with an army of racist nitwits totting an arsenal loaded weapons.

But it is authorized. Which scares me and should scare you. The amount of fake, synthetic garbage they put in our food and water supplies are horrifying. The fact that the all knowing and trustworthy federal government says it's okay too (only because of industry lobbyists and Supreme Court justices appointed to their positions, whom formerly were Monsanto defense attorneys) should be enough evidence that our system is screwed. "Purity of Essence"? What? Fluoride is known to cause neurological damage and despite its claimed use to prevent tooth decay; too much fluoride exposure actually increases tooth rot. Our environment-obsessed alphabet agencies like the FDA and BLM are nothing more than corrupted bureaucracies enforcing corporate interests at gun point.

"Army of racist nitwits toting an arsenal of loaded weapons". I already asked you prior regarding your ignorant use of "racists" and "white supremacists" to describe the anti-BLM protesters and militia members. I'm going to ask you to stop calling them racists unless you can tell me that you drove out to Bunkerville and asked each one of them if they hate black people. Otherwise, you are embarrassing yourself and slandering thousands of people, including myself.

[trish]

But it is authorized.

Like I said, without government everything is defacto authorized. So if you want protect your food and water, and stymie the evolution of drug resistant bacteria, convince your libertarian and conservative friends that regulation ain't such a bad thing sometimes. Vote the assholes who don't believe that government should interfere in these sorts of things out of office. At least don't give them your vote.

you are embarrassing yourself

It would be embarrassing for anyone to insist Cliven was not a racist. His army of nitwits listened to his racist diatribe, said nothing and continued to support him, even Fox while was running away from the creep. Just because you believe in Cliven's land grab theory doesn't mean you have wonder along with him whether the Negro was better off enslaved. Anyone who thinks that and called himself a lover of freedom is confused at best. Cliven doesn't love freedom. He doesn't know what freedom is. He's a rancher who wants his cows to eat for free.